Last Edited on 21-Jul-2007 9:23 PM

Maybe impeachment..LOL

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Jerry

Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"

Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================

You can email me if ya wanna talk business...LOL

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Jerry

Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"

Allen Turcotte is , I believe willing to step up and either assume the presidency or at least be put on a ballott to be voted on. I think he would be a great asset to the club in that capacity. I doubt many at this time will be willing to do that for the club. I say lets give him a chance.

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Paul

Last Edited on 22-Jul-2007 9:09 PM

Tony,don't feed into the negativity on this subject.Because Kenny is a respected flyer doesn't mean he's being factual here.

Juan Navarro is a fine roller man,and I for one will support him as a person and a club leader...Aloha,Todd

Man, that dog fighting is some cruel stuff! Get it!

JMO
Val

Last Edited on 30-Jul-2007 10:59 AM

Last Edited on 22-Jul-2007 9:22 PM

I guess everyone in here is a Saint WOW !!!

George

Any changes to it's staff; to it's structure has to be thought out carefully.

Too few people involve themselves in it that belong to it. Look at the number of voting members there are for elections or anything else that a vote is needed. Very few members vote.

Too few Roller breeders and flyers belong to the NBRC. How many on the site don't even belong? $26 a year gets you a membership and the member gets a butt load of benefits. That is 7 cents a day. Don't tell me you can't afford it. If it so happens that you can't afford it I will take on 10 individuals and pay thier membership dues.

Everybody who is envolved in the Roller hobby should be in the club; everybody should take atleast a minimum active roll in it as well.

The question I have is this: If the people who got caught up in this BOP "sting" that are officers were to stepdown who is ready to stepup? Get your candidates lined up before you make any demands on the current staff or on the current membership. And, in the same token if an executive decides he is going to stepdown he has to make sure there are qualified people that will continue to work in his sted.

The club is what has to survive.
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Nick

Last Edited on 22-Jul-2007 9:48 PM

This whole subject needs to disappear! We're just keeping the drama going ourselves!

There is another forum out there that this subject hasn't came up since it happened!
Might be wise to play it the same way!

All I know is we have team mates out there in trouble! Like Gregg, we should just focus on helping them out, thats whats important! Club = sticking together!JMO

Val

Last Edited on 30-Jul-2007 10:58 AM

Val

Last Edited on 22-Jul-2007 10:16 PM

This is a tough topic I know, but is one that in my opinion needs to be published to inform the roller community of the most important issue to come our way.

Here is a really easy solution to all this, start a new club called the "Fall Fly Roller Club", file for non-profit corporate status and hold new elections. The current NBRC officers can run for the same offices along with any new candidates.

Take the current $78,000 the NBRC has and refund it back to the current membership (2000 members = $39 refund) which they can use to join the new club which new club dues are $39 and the treasury instantly has $78,000 at it's disposal). Dis-band the NBRC and everyone gets a new start with the FFRC.

I know this will never happen but seems like a good idea.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria

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With very American terms like 'fall' and 'fall fly', it does come across as wanting just an American organisation.

Shaun

Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================

Shaun, the NBRC is not a international club and has nothing to do with the WC. The World Cup International Fly is completely, solely and entirely different and separate from the NBRC. The NBRC Fall Fly is a North American Fly.

Last Edited on 23-Jul-2007 10:57 AM

So, if the club's current formation were to be changed, there's an opportunity to consider widening its scope. If it wishes to stay as a US-driven organisation, that's fine. However, something more international is bound to have appeal, given the number of countries involved in the W/C.

Shaun

Shaun

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It is only suffering from some jerks and it has nothing to do with any indictments issued.

Where is the blood!?

Everybody STOP and stand pat. Damn, you can't step into a crowded theater and hollar "FIRE!".
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Nick

Last Edited on 23-Jul-2007 12:36 PM

When all club officers and club members who have been alleged to have committed a misdemeanor by violating the MBTA have been exonerated, we should be happy to re-instate them to their former positions.

However, I am sure an attorney is involved with this decision and that is why the right thing is not being done. LMAO

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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria

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Ro

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Now you are in here talking sence(LOL) How dare you be the voice of reason and at your age....shame on you(LOL)

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Nick

http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com

Ro

Last Edited on 23-Jul-2007 9:32 PM

George

And personally I know of not one single person outside of pigeons that cares one bit about what they heard on the news. Only a few of my friends outside of pigeons even asked "what was that all about" and never said another word again. Not one single friend has even asked how its going, because the forgot all about it way back in May. I know of NO ONE that cares, except us.

Personally I will keep my opinion to myself on this very serious matter. I've met several of the men involved and will simply say they shall all have their day in court.

In conclusion let it be known for the record that I have never killed a BOP.... and never advocated doing so, therefore, I have no inkling to why a fellow member would do such a thing... other than to basically protect what they consider precious stock.

Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts

Last Edited on 24-Jul-2007 5:41 PM

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V99
Flippin`The Bird!

http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com

Last Edited on 24-Jul-2007 10:46 PM

http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com

Good luck with them.

Keith

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Last Edited on 25-Jul-2007 2:22 PM

Last Edited on 25-Jul-2007 6:06 PM

Are you Duane Mitchell?
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Nick

You might want to monitor these threads a little closer, Tony, for the time being, since our hobby is, obviously, under a microscope.

Last Edited on 25-Jul-2007 7:39 PM

Jerry

Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"

However, staying put possibly hurts our credibility and makes us out to be liars and a “ring” to those that are listening (FGWS, Animal rights and rescue groups and media). This is ALL happening in the first place because good people said nothing to somebody else that what they may be doing, might be or is wrong.

To be pressured by my peers to stay quiet and then if I do, then I too have no integrity. I said it before, we face an existential threat to our hobby and it’s the “secrecy” and the mentality that supports it which is the BIGGEST THREAT! PERIOD. Why people cannot understand this is BEYOND ME!

The discussion we are having is one that is needed as OHR touched everyone in some way (even I got hate emails and threats by falconers and scumbags by virtue of having this website).

The blog posted above mentions the inconsistency of the clubs press release and the entrenched position of certain officers and then linked to this discussion.

The position being promoted by the club itself could very well prove to be its undoing. Again, why others can’t see this is beyond me. But I guess it really isn’t too surprising, blind loyalty is not based on any reason or logic.

Thread stays.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria

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Last Edited on 25-Jul-2007 9:25 PM

Rudy, just what makes Dons comment excellent? I don't see it, please explain why you say this?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria

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As to the issue of by-laws. There is a line which refers to the integrity of the members of the EC. I seem to remember there was a similar review not long ago.

The conduct of members of the EC will be held to the highest standard. Slightly paraphrased, I am short on time,and can`t look it up but I read it recently.

It would seem to me that being involved in the action and bringing the negative attention(s) to the club would fall under this reference. The highest standard would be not to be even allegedly involved in such a situation.

The action would not call for an ouster but simply a suspension of duties for them to have the time neccessary to prepare a defense and concentrate on resolving the matters at hand. I sincerely believe this would result in closing the ranks of the club and rallying the support of more fanciers.

Now what I feel personally.
C`mon guys lighten up! It`s not like we`re kicking them to the curb and never speaking to them again. Simply making them a general member of the club instead of an officer. At that point the club can act as an unbiased entity and in turn rally around these fanciers and protect them as well as it can. It`s part of the public image game that`s necessary to regain any morsel of integrity we can muster.

yits

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V99
Flippin`The Bird!

http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com

Hey Cliff, first off, I want you to know I have admiration for your willingness and guts to even speak out about all this. Thank you!

Secondly, I for one am not ranting and raving on this issue. I am providing a reasonable point of view that is practical and easy to follow.

Third, as for airing "dirty laundry", the average club member has no idea what the heck is going on, we are being told to just be quiet like we are a bunch of lemmings. Since most do not want to pay a membership fee to this forum to go private, then all that is left is to discuss it in public.

Is some unofficial secrecy rule creating the very situation they say they do not want?

Fourth, so now an attorney runs the club in order to protect a client/s at the expense of mine and others good name?? Cliff, tell me you are kidding or that you just don't know all the facts...

However, if that is true, and the majority of the relevant club leadership does not see the problem of conflict of interest, then I will have no other choice but to announce publicly that I am quitting the NBRC in protest until such time as the current leadership is replaced or the accused parties step-down and are 100% exonerated.

I would invite a member of the NBRC executive committee to call me or email me and tell me if whether this is true or not.

My membership to the NBRC is due at the end of this month, I will wait til then to hear from someone before I renew.

I just need to know if an attorney has advised them to not step down, and so has probably led to all the "ranting and raving" on this and other lists.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria

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Last Edited on 26-Jul-2007 6:40 AM

if you decide not to renew your membership thats your choice.
The N.B.R.C. is not charged with any crimes and is not considered a security threat group ,so I see no reason to abandon Ship.

Good Luck
George

Last Edited on 26-Jul-2007 9:01 AM

You and how many others totally IGNORE the content of my previous posts as though they were never posted.

Do guys even think for yourselves anymore or do you let others do it for you? I am disgusted. Truly.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria

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Last Edited on 26-Jul-2007 7:21 AM

The point I am making is that the dissention and negativity will effect no change. To date, I have not seen one item of business in front of the EC as a request or a recommendation from a member or an RD on this issue. If you are sincere about change, resigning in protest will accomplish nothing. Men who are sincere, need to quit hiding behind a computer, put their thoughts, requests and recommendations in writing, get some signatures, and submit it through their RD, or Juan to the Executive Committee. That takes a little more kahunas...a little more responsibility....but it is the only real way to make anything happen. As I said, representing ourselves on public forums as a disgruntled, rag tag band of men attacking and swearing at each other only confirms the distorted image of us they wish to portray. We need not play into their hands any more than we already have.
JMHO,
Cliff

Last Edited on 26-Jul-2007 7:41 AM

you are right about following prescribed processes being the right way to voice our opinions. Uh-Oh, I think I agreed with both you and KGB in the space of 48 hours.

Something must be wrong with me. LOL

Sincerely,

Ken Firl

I couldn't agree more!

I will do my best to not fall into this catagory again!

Val

Val,
Good move!

Cliff

Last Edited on 26-Jul-2007 9:11 AM

Since my last post, I did receive a phone call and learned some very interesting things about the inner circle that I did not know by someone who is very close to the inner workings of the club and would know.

I will not be renewing my NBRC club membership. Good luck. I will leave this topic alone, I will go back and focus on raising and flying my rollers and helping my customers enjoy the hobby once more.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria

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your post are almost sounding like a personel attack on the N.B.R.C. .

I just think that there is a better way to address your concerns as I am almost sure you are just trying to look out for the club.

Tony dont take this as a personel attack at you in any way
and in no way is my opinion the view of the N.B.R.C. or any others members of the club.

Thanks George

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Is the club flawed? Do we need a wholesale clean-out of the club leaders and vote in term limitations so that fresh faces and ideas can be heard from?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria

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Last Edited on 26-Jul-2007 12:01 PM

Cliff,
That has the be the biggest bunch of BS I have heard all day. Getting an issue in front of the EC via your RD is as big a joke as the leadership of this club. Turcotte is the only sane one.
How can it be business as usual on the EC with this huge cloud hanging over the club? The EC consideration is laughable from the action taken so far.

You guys let the club get punked by the media by not taking immediate action and asking Juan to resign. On Fox they said The president of the club was arrested and then issued this statement. The NBRC position statement was then portioned to the public.

If he was out,the statement would not have been made implying a "good ol` boy" network of redneck hawk killers by the USFWS. Their rep said "These guys think they are above the law." This is on international TV viewed by the WORLD. Why in Gods name would I want to pay dues to or belong to a corrupt bunch of hawk killers? I have NEVER killed or harassed a BOP period. Yet I have had to make changes in my program. That in itself leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Now I see the club get sodomized on Fox News due to the "everyday business" of the EC. They are slamming the club not Juan. They always seem to make a point of pointing out the president was arrested and the club issued this statement. Juan`s name isn`t mentioned but Fox left NBRC on the caption for the entire time the piece was running. It made me ill. The choice is mine to leave but yours to convince me to stay.

Whatcha got?

ps Good thing I got custom bands from Tony this season.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!

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Last Edited on 26-Jul-2007 6:41 PM

The band comment made me laugh out loud!

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Jerry

Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"

http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com

----- Original Message -----
From: gregg sale
To: Support@Roller-Pigeon.Com
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 3:51 PM
Subject: nbrc pres.

Tony,
Your not the only one upset with the direction of the NBRC. I put together an email and sent it to eight individuals including Juan Navarro. It is not for public consumption just yet as I haven't decided to go public with it. But I would like to share it with you.
Reciprocally, I would appreciate hearing about the phone call that you got.
Gregg Sale. P.S. I'm still committed to the fund raiser, just not to some of the officers of the NBRC.
You will have to start reading at the bottom as I sent my original post to ***** and then forwarded same to Juan and other officers. Some of the officers are slowly beginning to see the need for Juan to resign. But would the dirty mess of impeachment benefit the club in that the time needed to do same would already put him out of office.
I'm getting long winded again. But I took the message to the horse's mouth and believe I ended up getting an answer from the other end.
Gregg.

Juan,
I have nothing against you personally. I have sent this message to approximately eight officers of the NBRC and to a few friends in an attempt to gauge the concensus of opinion. I also believe that I have a good grip on the case against you. It has nothing to do with you as an individual and everything to do with preserving the NBRC. I personally, if in your position, would resign from the presidency of the club.
I do value your work, past and present, as an officer of this club. But you are now a target for every media broadcast on this subject. Each time an article is written, a report given, a broad cast aired, Juan Navarro is pointed to as the "indicted president of the NBRC." If you cannot see the negative affects of this publicity on our organization, then I must say that I believe Juan Navarro is thinking only of Juan Navarro and not of the membership of the NBRC which he was elected to represent. I do not feel that you can fairly represent the membership in light of the circumstances surrounding your arrest.
Please do not take this as a personal attack against Juan Navarro. I voted for Juan Navarro for President of the NBRC and look forward some day to meeting you. You are in a really tight situation that is probably affecting every aspect of your life right now. I will not insult your intelligence, I know that you don't want to be reading this and are wondering who is this ____from Illinois. I just ask that you make a decision on this based on what is good for the membership of the club and not what is good for Juan Navarro. I consider the club to be in dire straits at this time and want to see strong leadership and effective education for our membership. In other words, I want to see the NBRC survive as a robust organization.
The damage that has already been done to our organization is going to require a serious ongoing education program for our members who will face a decade of putting forth a positive spin on our club just to get us back to where we were.
Any attempt to change the current law as it exists is pure fantasy on the part of those harboring those illusions. We were and will be an easy target for the USFWS and the politicians supporting them. They will point to us as examples of "saving the enviorment" enforcement. In so doing they guarantee their budget requests from the politicians and the politicians solidify their liberal voting block and hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions, in campaign contributions. That is why what ever small treasury surplus we have must be spent on small word of mouth campaigns that get the biggest bang for the buck. Paying lobbyists or hiring someone to tell us their are "too many feathered predators" is a joke. Paying for that joke is an insult to the membership.
I hope that I have influenced you in some small manner. I hope that I have you thinking of the NBRC first and foremost. If you can't do that, then you need to step down, and let some who can assume the presidency.
I do wish you all the best.
Gregg Sale.
----- Original Message -----
From: Juan Navarro
To: 'gregg sale'
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 11:44 AM
Subject: RE: juan's statement

Gregg:

Thank you for your recent note. While you bring up some valid points in my President’s Note, I still do not understand what grounds you have for any resignation request. I have not violated any NBRC by-law and if anything, the reason that I am in this position is specifically because of my position with the club.

I find it very disheartening that someone in the same club that I have worked so hard and volunteered so much for would raise this issue.

If you would like any specific questions answered, please feel free to email me in the future.

Sincerely,

Juan R. Navarro

NBRC President

-----Original Message-----
From: gregg sale [mailto:vgs20@insightbb.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:01 PM
To: jnavaro@pacbell.net
Subject: Fw: juan's statement

----- Original Message -----

From: gregg sale

Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 6:52 PM
Subject: juan's statement

Whomever,

Did Juan's statement in the NBRC bulletin not serve as a point blank confession? It sounds to myself that it is a statement that was written under the tutelage of the USFWS.

I quote:

"I have no comment specifically to the government's complaint filed against me. I can only state that if any mistakes were made, they were made with the intent to protect my personal property (the livelihood of my roller pigeons) within my own private residence. I was not familiar with the specific laws governing the protective status of migratory animals and do not endorse any activity that would harm them."

Towards the end of his statement I again quote:

"If I had simply received a letter in the mail, email, or telephone call with explanation or citation of the migratory bird regulations, I would have instantaneously removed any questionable items from my premises and ceased any inappropriate activities and recommended to all fanciers to do the same. If the same government official who acted as an undercover agent in this case would have simply approached me with documentation and information on this matter 14 months ago, I would have disseminated it via our club's website, monthly bulletins, and at local and national events. This would have been a much less expensive method to communicate the message and information.

I submit that I will cooperate fully with federal agencies in whatever restitution I may provide to.........."

In my reading of the above, I find every reason why Juan needs to step down and let someone else lead the NBRC out of the swamp.

JMHO

Gregg.

Tony's Post

No Cliff, its a group trying to make a correction to a ship going in a wrong direction...
Since my last post, I did receive a phone call and learned some very interesting things about the inner circle that I did not know by someone who is very close to the inner workings of the club and would know.

I will not be renewing my NBRC club membership. Good luck. I will leave this topic alone, I will go back and focus on raising and flying my rollers and helping my customers enjoy the hobby once more

Last Edited on 30-Jul-2007 2:32 PM

Or,...never mind

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Jerry

Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"

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Jerry

Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"

Last Edited on 26-Jul-2007 8:12 PM

Cliff,
I have a question. Aren't you the same Cliff that wants to have the wild life guys and media at a question and answer at this NBRC convention? I'm pretty sure you are!! so I wouldn't be wondering if people are smart or not? Sheeeesh,, LOL KGB

Last Edited on 26-Jul-2007 8:27 PM

Last Edited on 27-Jul-2007 5:04 AM

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"The powers that be" have determined that no items of business will be entertained by the EC, that deal with a response to the BOP issue in any way, until the grand jury has completed its investigation into the potential for indictment of the NBRC for conspiracy to harm BOP. The prevailing attitude is that anything the EC discusses as a group, or privately via e-mail or telephone conversation can, and will, be used against the organization.

I, personally, have submitted several requests and pleas, early on, for action on a number of fronts on a number of occaisions, and was stonewalled by more conservative opinion in every case, by members who believed it was not prudent to act. Meanwhile the EC continues to take up the business of fly policies that are vague or lacking in clarity, such as the issue of a flyer flying the same birds in two kits, that was prompted by the discussion on this site. I submitted about 17 issues that I believe needed to be addressed, based on my first year as National Fly Director and problems that I and the flyers accross the nation saw. About a dozen have been discussed, and most have passed intact. Some have been modified, some have been trash-canned, again by more conservative opinion. (For example, I was unsuccessful in my bid to change the name of our national championship from the "Fall Fly" to "The NBRC National Championship Fly" The name Fall Fly was retained by majority vote.) But that's the way committees work, gentlemen. Meanwhile, the plans are on schedule for an awesome convention and '07 national championship "Fall Fly". There is no "sitting on hands", but "business as usual" as I said before. I am also aware of a number of private, individual efforts of EC members, including myself, to gather data and information about the BOP issue in preparation for a comprehensive response to this issue, when the court cases of the officers and members have been heard, and when the grand jury has completed its investigation of the NBRC.

Like Dave Szab said, your power is through your RD. If he is not discussing these issues with you and the other flyers in your region before he votes on these issues...you need to vote in a new RD, and make it clear to him that you expect your opinion to be represented, not omitted when the votes are cast on these issues. If your RD is not participating in the discussions and voting, as is the case in several regions, you need to read him the riot act.(How many of you even knew that your RD was discussing the policies that were passed and announced in the March-April Bulletin?) First of all he needs to know that you even care about the issues. Few flyers really communicate with their RDs except during a competition.

The election of officers is just around the corner. In the midst of all this criticism, some of which I happen to agree with, how many of you are discussing potential candidates for the offices with your colleagues in the hobby. How many have the kahunas to really get involved and take responsibility for directing the changes that are sorely needed? Some of the officers have held their positions for years because nobody else has stepped up. What about you, Mr. Naysayer?

It is easy to sit back in apathy, let other guys do the work and expect the business of the NBRC to come to you. I assure you that will not happen. You have to take responsibility for becoming aware...take part in the processes...then you have a right to complain. But otherwise, all this verbal jousting after-the-fact; sitting in judgement of the decisions of men (most of whom are your friends) who are dedicating long hours on the phone and the internet to deal with the business of the club in the best way they know how, is inappropriate and irresponsible at the very least, and vindictive in some of the worst cases. But it is easy to do.......The EC doesn't always get it right...hindsight is 20/20....but it has a pretty good record, actually.....and it will never please everyone with the decisions that it comes to. Complaining on internet lists?....attacking other roller men who have a different opinion from your own?....dropping out in protest?.....rename the organization?....nothing personal my friends, but those provide us with nothing of substance with which to improve our hobby....its just taking the easy way out and trying to look good in doing so...become more apathetic...and then complain more because things don't turn out the way you think they should? I don't think so...not for me......but then we are all different....
Thanks for listening. Sorry for the soap-boxing.
Cliff Ball
National Fly Director

Last Edited on 27-Jul-2007 10:16 PM

Thanks for the post, it was enlightening to some extent. I can buy into some of what you just said (assuming it IS the position of the EC). Do you know why the club's positions you mentioned are not published in its most recent bulletin or did I miss it?

I think it is helpful if someone in an elected position that is under such scrutiny resigned at least temporarily until found not guilty of all charges and then resume his/her elected duties.

Be that as it may, the reform movement needs to happen and the candidate/s for president who promise to implement and promote its platform while in office will have my support and vote.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria

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Last Edited on 28-Jul-2007 3:16 AM

As to a adopting a policy of temporary suspension of officers "under scrutiny", we would need a definition of "under scrutiny". Keeping this in perspective, I believe we are dealing with charges that have been reduced to misdimeanors. What if they were arrested for jay-walking and the media blew it all out of proportion and indicted the NBRC as promoting the violating of municipal laws? Would that qualify? Obviously, we are dealing with something momre serious in this situation, but as Brian said,it is the media distortion and our reaction to it, that is the real cuplprit here. What if it were an income tax issue....or a nasty divorce....all could be blown out of proportion by the media. Under what circumstances should the organization be deprived of its leadership by the media? Maybe all of them since the media hype is capable of diverting the attention of the officer from his responsibilities and duties. And it depends on the officer. Some are more resilient than others, when under the gun. I don't have a lot of answers, here, right off the cuff. But the point is that this is a complex issue with no simple answers and these types of things must all be crefully considered, and then agreed upon by the majority, not just a few of us, in order to change the way we do things.
Cliff

Last Edited on 28-Jul-2007 10:12 PM

Keith

This below is a quote from another list of a respected roller fancier. I think he says it all. G.S.

"What all this is leading to is the need for very strong leadership in the upcoming election. We
don't need figurehead officers, we need leaders. I hope the members will consider the nominees
for their leadership abilities, rather than popularity. We can't go through two more years like a
rudderless ship at sea."

Last Edited on 30-Jul-2007 2:28 PM