Leo
Member
2 posts
Apr 27, 2005
8:24 AM
|
I was skipping through another site, I couldnt believe the color thing is still going on. Here is some info you can count on, I have a very good friend that has collected yrs ago the old Pensom birds, he was able to do this, because his job put him different areas ,coast to coast, he visits many fanciers, sees many kits, paid good bucks for real birds, he produces "SCREAMERS"and keeps them pure.AS yrs have gone by ,he still travels, he still sees top kits and we still call each other and talk rollers,he said the birds of TODAY are not even close to the birds he and myself can put up, he has met many of the HOTSHOTS that were on this site,he said the birds have LOST the great velosity, that they once had, hasnt seen a bird he would add to his loft in several yrs...COULD IT BE THE INVASION OF NEW COLOR BIRDS???????I think Rick Mee made mention of the loss of velosity,when he went to England and saw kits. I know one thing for sure,if you are a real roller man and see a REAL SCREAMER even if only 5 ft deep,, "your shirttail wont hit your butt" till its in the breeding loft, depth can be bred for,velosity,is a whole different ballgame......LEO
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
21 posts
Apr 27, 2005
5:47 PM
|
Leo.I don,t think the color had any thing to do with the quality of the rollers.I feel like competition has done more to destroy the quality than anything.Like Rick Mee said about the English birds.You don,t see that much color in their birds but look at what all they do(as well as many others) to try and get the edge to win in competition.Most are breeding to produce what the judges like to see and what will score points.I like the single bird point system.If the roller can do it it gets the points.You get these 20 bird kits and there is no one around who can judge them correctly when 10 or 15 roll at once.They are scored according to what the judge thought he seen.The more the competition thing grows the less quality rollers you will see.I have always wondered why Pensom never competed in this country.I think he knew this very thing.
I liked the shirttail thing.I agree a good roller with great velocity is a sight to behold.I don,t get to make many runs a year to my stock loft.LOL. David
|
Alan Bliven
105 posts
Apr 27, 2005
10:26 PM
|
Hi Leo,
Whatever the case it has to be lack of or improper selective breeding.
Whenever someone don't pick their breeders from the air it throws up a red flag with me. I just don't understand how we can breed performance animals without them being proven first. Family name and pedigree mean little if the stock bird's performance haven't been proven. That in itself is what ruins a performance strain.
No matter if the bird came from Pensom's own personal loft, without proving it, for all we know it could be a cull. The same with a rare colored bird.
Some breeders don't even fly their birds. How can you possibly have any confidence in the progeny if the parents haven't been proven? Pedigree? Family name? I don't believe so. the birds that are bred this way, the more it waters down the gene pool.
I breed working line German Shepherds and Americans have almost destroyed the breed with lack of or poor selective breeding. It's a high performance breed. Over in Germany they won't even allow you to breed your dog unless it has a Schutzhund title. It proves that the dog is worthy to be bred. It's very demanding on the dog. One of the most demanding methods of proving a performance dog's worth.
Simply put, if unproven birds are in your stock pens only because they have rare colors or for any other reason haven't been proven in the air, you will weaken the gene pool because you most likely are breeding from culls.
If it's a proven performer and has these other qualities then fine. But if it's selected as a breeder only because it's pretty, most likely it's a cull. Ask yourself what percentage of the birds you breed end up in the stock pen. If you'd say 10% that means only 1 of 10 is good enough. If you took some of them birds and stocked them without proving them first because of their rare color or for another reason besides performance, 90% of them would not be worthy and you'd weaken or destroy your gene pool.
----------
Alan
|
nicksiders
104 posts
Apr 27, 2005
11:34 PM
|
I like to think that breeding the best spinners always produces the best spinners, but I have found that this is not always true. Sometimes my very best spinners produce junk. There are other factors involved in getting your best breeders. I am not smart enough to know what that exactly is, but I sometimes find the right combination and sometimes get several good spinners in the same kit. I guess what I am trying to say is not always do I get the best results from breeding my best birds from the air. My youngsters from my great spinners never match thier parents and my young great spinners invarably are from just so-so spinners.
My birds seem to be like fruit trees.............every other year my fruit trees produce a lot and every other year my birds produce better spinners. I know there are probably other factors that I am missing, but my trees and my birds seemed to be on a every other year thing.
I am just rambling.............have you guys experienced anything like what I ramble about?
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
22 posts
Apr 28, 2005
2:58 AM
|
Nick.Yes I have and last year was one of them.I found myself taking what everyone was saying on forums like this and trying different things and would up having a bad year.This year I have went back to my old way and that is trying to breed best to best and using a good Color balance with my matings.I have always found that a hard color mated to a soft color will produce the better rollers.Pensom preached this and it works.Your Dilutes,Reduced etc will be much stronger and the soft colors is where I get my roll from.I love trying new things and if I find something that works I will use it.Trouble I find is that what works today may not work next month.LOL.
I was really disgusted with myself last year by letting somes opinions allow me to rethink where I was with my breeding program.I am back on track and am starting to see the results in this years young already.
I am really a firm beliver in this Color Balance matings.David
|
Leo
Member
3 posts
Apr 28, 2005
12:21 PM
|
You guys are 'dead on'as far a i can see,I personally like a three bird spinoff, I see Blue is back on tract, here is somthing to concider, Inbreed two different familys. take the inbred youngsters and mate these together, 95% of the time they are "Liquid Smoke"..it works like magic,I tried it on medicore rollers with good results...Ya know roller guys were always the nicest guys you could ever want to meet, but since the comming of compitition, things have changed, many of these guys are downright aggressive,an nasty.. and in the process the rollers are no longer the same as they used to be. I dont think it will get any better, the rollers could possibly fall in two different performance patterns,OLD STYLE / COMP STYLE ? Just a few things to think about.Be right back...LEO
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
23 posts
Apr 28, 2005
1:02 PM
|
Leo.I would like a little more info on this inbreeding different family thing.I have crossed the masons with the turners and the young were really good but these young when mated back into the family produced junk.Maybe you could layout a short breeding program on how you did it.I will definately try it.HaHa.
I am in the process now of crossing 7 different families of rollers.Just a side project to see what happens.This would be a good place to try it.I know I am going to produce the Super Roller.LOL.
There is a lot of super nice roller people around yet.I have met some of the best you would ever want to know over the innernet.It seems as like you said when competition is involved that is where you will find the aggressive type.Wait till the Comps are done for money.Then watch what happens.Seen it in the dog world.Nasty.LOL.David
|
Alan Bliven
107 posts
Apr 28, 2005
2:21 PM
|
It could be the fault of the internet and it's forums. There's a lot of misunderstanding that happens on a forum because of the lack of the human element. I haven't met any bad roller people in person. In fact pigeon people are some of the best people I have ever met. Many times people mirror the animals they keep. Pigeons are doves, the universal sign of peace and love. You should try dealing with some of the Police Dog people I have to... talk about egos and aggressive!
----------
Alan
|
Alan Bliven
108 posts
Apr 28, 2005
2:51 PM
|
I'll tell you one thing I definitely believe Roller competitions have hurt and that's other flying performing breeds. The folks that like performance breeds have tended to measure every other performance breed against the competition rules of the B. Roller and as a result other breeds can't keep up because they weren't made to be B. Rollers.
----------
Alan
|
Leo
Member
4 posts
Apr 28, 2005
3:02 PM
|
Hey Blue, I never thought money being involved, WOW I wouldnt want any part of judging???? would you,???Whew, Things could get real touchy..A Shootout at sunup..LOL...I TOLDYA MY BIRDS BETTER THAN YOUR BIRD,NOW TAKE THAT ####**^^# THATLL TEACHYA TO SLIP A "RINGER" IN ON ME, YA DIRTY DOG,.....HaHaHaLOLLLLLOL..Only in America,OK thats enough,LOL. Blue heres a good way to inbreed for information ..go..mother to son..and father to daughter., you have 4 babies now mate motherson babys to fatherdaughters babys,now your tight. DO the same thing with another pr{not related to first pr}NOW ya got it,MATE babys of pr no1 to babys of pr no 2 and get out of the way ROLLERS MAKIN SMOKE are in the air....LEO
|
rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
271 posts
Apr 28, 2005
9:07 PM
|
I agree with what Nick said, I have taken birds that were not the best performers, but yet could produce them and have seen the best performers produce some junk. I believe that when the family gene pool has been developed through proper performance based selection, the likelihood of producing a higher percentage of good spinners is greatly increased.
David, as I guess you confirmed for yourself, nothing replaces the breeding “best to best” approach. It does become very easy to spout opinions on forums that can confuse and inadvertently redirect our efforts in directions other than best to best method. Do what you have proven to work best with your family of rollers.
When it comes to color, I do not do anything special in regards to pairing up. Although my lavs tend to be the hottest, they are most likely to give me bumping problems say compared to my red bars or red checks.
Sometimes I will put two lavs together, but it is because I want to see hot stuff and I like the other traits they demonstrate. I like the control I see in my family, but if I had to choose the more dangerous color in my loft, it would be the soft lavender color. FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
24 posts
Apr 29, 2005
3:54 AM
|
Tony. This is the same thing I have with my Qualmonds.I have the father mated to one of his daughters and the mother mated to one of her sons.There young are HOT.Very much borderline but still safe with good control.All these from this mating I have to go back to a hard color like blue bar or blue check(I could go red but like the blue qualmond) or they will rolldown on me for the most part.I am still expermenting with these matings and will probably mess something up before I am done but I know where I am safe for now.
Have you taken a Lavender and went back to one of its parents to see what happened? David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Apr 29, 2005 3:55 AM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
25 posts
Apr 29, 2005
4:03 AM
|
Leo.As I was saying about my Qualmonds in a post to Tony I can,t go this tight or all I end up with is dead birds.LOL.
I am thinking about using the Qualmonds in the project you suggested doing.I already have a good start with them.I have to decide what other pair to use to cross with the qualmonds.Maybe something that wasn,t near as hot would balance out the young.Lot of options to go with here.I will keep you posted if I don,t run out of time.LOL. David
|
Leo
Member
5 posts
Apr 29, 2005
9:12 AM
|
Blue, sorry on the inbreeding, I thought only of my birds, The straight old Pensom Line.Blues, reds blacks, etc.Bill once suggested to me that the lavenders he imported were to mainly LoosenUp some of the familys,so lavenders would not fit in this type of program, as they are hotter overall.Ive bred a lav cock back on his daughter 7 times, the 7th time the babies came White pearl eyed really pretty birds, Lots of guys are afraid to inbreed,I can say this''One pr of mice in a large container produced youngsters, which produced,, an on an on,till 156 mice were in the container, and the Vigor had not demished or any abmormal mice were found, the same goes for wild birds.So dont be afraid to DO IT. I think a good way for you, is to breed say a good cock to his sisters children, and this would keep color and should improve performance ,...LEO
|
rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
282 posts
May 07, 2005
8:03 AM
|
Hey Leo, read the first post again of this thread about your friend who travels and has not seen the velocity that used to be there for many years. You mention if that it could be the birds of color are having a negative impact on the loss of velocity in today’s rollers.
As all this was before my time, I am wondering, as he is flying old Pensom lines, why the color is an issue, it’s out there on the net and some of his published writings that Pensom himself had color birds. Why are some giving the impression that he did not when others, even his writings say he did? Does anyone know the “real” story or am I missing something?
If he had birds of color, were these just a project for some purpose that only he was aware of? Did the presence of color rollers in his a loft mean he bred for more than roll or that it makes no difference if the gene pool has the roll already?
I am not asking if color has the roll, only the historical question of if Pensom had color birds and if anyone knows why? Could you or your friend provide more information on this? FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
283 posts
May 07, 2005
8:20 AM
|
Hey David, it is your observation that competition has done more to hurt the performance of the roller, okay, then why do so many say that unless a person competes, his rollers can’t be that good?
Does a person need to actually compete or just see as many quality kits to establish a performance benchmark in which to compare his own birds?
As to the point scoring, is it that competition is bad or that the scoring systems and the experience of the judge are the real issues?
Also, I was not exactly clear on the single bird part of your post. Do you mean that a single bird should be scored and given points that go toward the entire kit score or to just try and determine the best bird in the kit?
I personally like the single bird being scored and the total given to the kit. This way many individual birds can score and it has nothing to do with the kit all breaking at once. I believe this might be an improved way to have the best quality birds and fancier get their due. FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
284 posts
May 07, 2005
9:16 AM
|
Hello Alan, I tend to agree with your post overall, however, where I would disagree is that unless a bird is proven and you breed from it, it will weaken your gene pool...for example...
if you take a proven, tightly bred family and then take two offspring and pair them together, you will produce the roll as you are passing the gene pool on. The quality to be determined through proper training.
However, and this is where I agree, if selecting like this for many generations, then you will lose the preferred performance levels.
By selecting the best performers, we are more likely to continue producing same. Once we stop using this as our primary criteria in selecting breeders, over time, we will produce just average (inferior) performing rollers. Just my opinion. FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
285 posts
May 07, 2005
9:41 AM
|
Hey Nick, you are right; we will never know what a pair will produce 100% of the time and no pair that I know of breeds’ great birds 100% of the time.
But we do know that by consistently selecting our best performing birds from the air and breeding them together, it will give us the best chance to concentrate the rolling ability in a line of birds.
I tend to think of the “breeding best to best” concept as a process that is continual. You never reach a point where it is finished.
As long as we are breeding, we will get varying degrees of demonstrated rolling ability, however, since “like tends to produce like” whether it is good, bad or just average, it just makes the most sense to breed from the best we have. FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
286 posts
May 07, 2005
11:41 AM
|
Hello David, I have a question…
I don’t really use color in putting my pairs together, I mostly just size them up based on what I know of their overall performance, type and relationship to each other, based on your soft and hard colors approach, how would you recommend me to pair my birds; I have red checks, mealy bars (red bars), lavenders, dark checks, baldies (red bars with lots of white splash on neck and head)?
Maybe I will try a couple pairs like this to see what comes out. Thanks! FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
Leo
Member
18 posts
May 07, 2005
12:05 PM
|
Hi Tony, Mabe you can help me, I do not know what you guys refer to as color birds?????????? Dont refer to any bird shown in Pensoms book as color birds, IF they are refered to as color birds, Something is BAD wrong.I state NEW color, Birds ,Meaning some of the beautiful ,andalusian ,some opals, laced colors, etc. These being mixed in with comp birds.????? I also state ;Could it Be;??????IS this what you guys mean by COLOR birds??? please clarify this color debate....LEO
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
37 posts
May 07, 2005
2:49 PM
|
Tony.I will try to answer everything but will have to do it in several post.I have a one track mind so will probably have to go back and reread all the post again.LOL
On mating your birds.From looking at your pics all I see is hard colors.You have the Spread factor and this is where you are getting your Lavenders from.That and the Blue.Your Lavender cocks carry blue and that is where Paul got the Black when mated to the red hen he had.I haven,t seen any grizzle in your birds either.I really don't have any suggestions on mating your birds than you have already done.David
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
38 posts
May 07, 2005
3:15 PM
|
Tony.On the Competition thing.I have seen the rollers that used to roll 75 foot to 100 foot kicked aside to make room for the shorter rollers because of competition.Shorter rolls means more rolls per time allowed and the thing that everyone who competes POINTS.Don,t matter what has to be done, Get Them Points.
I was glad to see you get the Fireballs.When you see a 100 foot roll you will be hooked forever.
Do you have to compete for your birds to be any good?
The only thing competition does is who had the best rollers on that day.To many things go wrong to be able to say this is the best kit in the World.They even admit that the best kit dosn't always win.Thats why you seldom see anyone repeat their performance.Its is all in winning and if you win the big one sit back and rake in the money.
Look at the one that won last year.Getting 500.00 bucks a pair.Can he repeat his performance.Watch and see.He don,t have to he can ride this one untill the next big winner.
Chances are that half the birds sold for 500.00 a pair will never reproduce themselves.
On the single bird points.I belong to a Club(CHRC)East of me that does this.You tell the judge which bird you are wanting to get Certified and this is the bird flying in the kit(I don,t know how many flown)that the judge is awarding points to by however many feet it rolls in 15 or 20 minutes.
The bird must have 50 points to be able to be Certified.You get this award with what it is Certified for.Must be witnessed by 3 club members I think.
I joined this club because of this other little things they do to have fun with the birds.One is you pick out 10 rollers you want to fly then the judge will pick out 5 of those 10 to fly and they get scored.Just fun things inside the club.
I like the single bird being Certified.I live so far from this club that I can,t attend their meetings but some of them is going to make the trip to me sometime and Certify some rollers.When you buy a bird from one of these fellows you get the paper along with the bird that was Certified.You feel confident that that roller is what it is said to be.Here I go Rambling.David
|
Alan Bliven
134 posts
May 07, 2005
3:38 PM
|
I like the idea of the club certification. Personally, competition is too structured for me. It makes me breed my birds according to what someone else thinks the way they should be instead of what I like myself.
I like a kit of deep rollers too. But I also like a kit of low flying, frequent, high velocity 10 footers, where I can see the birds real well. But I don't believe either kit would do well in competition.
But don't you think competition does have it's good points for the breed as a whole? It causes breeders to breed extremely good quality performers. Without competition, I'd think the overall quality of the breed wouldn't be very good. Competition always makes one strive to be better. Maybe you can keep your birds high quality without it but as a general rule, human nature likes to take the easy way out
----------
Alan
Last Edited by Alan Bliven on May 07, 2005 3:39 PM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
39 posts
May 07, 2005
3:51 PM
|
Tony.Couple things I forgot.
There used to be a big Club that scored single birds.I keep thinking Performing Roller Club.I can't remember.
The other was; I don.t fault the scoring or the judges but it is just one mans opinion.No two judges can or is able to score the same kit equal.
Put 3 judges under the same kit and see how their scores total at the end of the fly.So the Comps don,t prove nothing as to what any roller is.
Yes.The more kits one can see fly can help in selecting what you like in a roller.
As far as a Perfect Roller.You will know it when you see it.There is no doubt in your mind.When you see a perfect roll you never forget it.I think it was Leo said when you do see one your shirttail never touches your behind untill you have it safely tuck away inside your breeding Loft.Or something like that.LOL.
I don,t know anyone serious about rollers that is satisfied with rollers that are not perfect.99.99% of what we raise is not perfect but we always keep trying.And in the meantime we fly what God has smiled down on us and allowed us to enjoy.
When someone tells me I have to compete to prove how good my rollers are it goes in one ear and right out the other.LOL
The only thing I have to prove is to myself.And my wife tells me I will never be satisfied.LOL David
|
motherlodelofts
3 posts
May 22, 2005
12:04 PM
|
Who's your buddy Leo ? who's lofts are you talking about ? True though, you can put on a lot of miles between the lofts that have the goods, and truelly good birds don't come in large numbers,that is for sure. I gotta be honest with you though, a 5 ft bird does little for me, now if it looks short but rolls for 2 or 3 sec (duration) that is another story.
Only those that don't compete make such silly remarks,the true competitors are what is moving the breed forward in qaulity. I can gaurantee that there isn't a backyard flier out there that can match the top competitors for qaulity and depth , sure they might have one or two good one's, but bird for bird not a chance.
Why is this, because competition does many things,
first it puts you out of your backyard to see the realities of what is out there.
second it "forces" you to learn your birds,and what makes them tick to pull the optimin performance out of the.
third it keeps you from screwing around with matings and to concentrate only in one direction and that is "sheer" performance and to stay out of the traps of color, pedigree breeding ect.
Fourth , It pushes you to drive,and drive and drive, you cannot lay back, you have to work for it.
Five, You learn that there are many that are just talk, you learn the real fliers let the birds do the talking.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on May 22, 2005 12:21 PM
|
George Ruiz
28 posts
May 22, 2005
9:27 PM
|
Thank You Scott well said and true
George
|
Level4
5 posts
May 23, 2005
5:06 PM
|
Leo..What if i had a pair mated them for the 3 rds.They cock got out so i mated the 1st son to her.Got 3 rds from him...LOL..but he got out..WHAT DO I DO NEXT? I dont know anything about in or linebreeding? The hen was better than the 1st cock..but the 2nd cock as you say..LOL.."SCREAMING" Im just trying to get to that LEVEL...LOL...THANKS :)
|
Leo
Member
36 posts
May 27, 2005
7:50 AM
|
Hey George, havent seen you around??? What became of the lavender hen that rolled blood in her eye????..Have you gotten any more out of that pr???...LEO
|
George Ruiz
29 posts
May 27, 2005
8:50 AM
|
Hi Leo
I rested the bird for a month and started flying it again it took about a month to start spinning again with the same velocity that cuased the "blood in the eyes".
To this day the bird is still flying and has not had a problem again .
A friend really likes the bird and I told him he can have it I told him what happened to its eyes as a youngster
but he still says he wants it.
all the birds from that pair havnt had any problems it may have just been the bird was to young to handle such extreme velocity.
Last Edited by George Ruiz on May 27, 2005 8:52 AM
|
Leo
Member
37 posts
May 27, 2005
11:34 AM
|
George, I am shure you know i really tried to explain to you, about your problem, "But all hell broke loose" THE EXPERTS"""" jumped on this one with proven athority,They carried you off,AND YOU WERE SAVED FROM THE COMMON SENSE AND EXPERIENCE OF THE DREADED>>>>>LEO,..I thought by now youd have a " loft full"of bloody eyed monsters, like they said you would have, YOU just answered part of your problem in your answer.....there is a little more to it...LEO
|
motherlodelofts
18 posts
May 27, 2005
12:39 PM
|
There are allways exceptions , if it is a good bird of coarse you are going to rest it and throw it back up. Maybe the bird hit another also, who knows. If it actually rolled blood in the eye it's a fault and certainly nothing I want in my family , I have had other families that carried that fault because it was accepted in the breeding loft , my family here "never" shows it because such birds never went into stock. It is really quite that simple , what you put in more than likely you'll get out
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on May 27, 2005 12:41 PM
|
Leo
Member
38 posts
May 27, 2005
1:32 PM
|
HOLD UP,,,IT was you guys that told Geo what to do with his bird,,,IT was you guys that told him he would have a loft full..IT was you guys that said to dispose of the parents..It was you guys that went against everything i tried to explain, SO dont EVEN make excuses,,"it bumped its nose..it hit another bird".."there always exceptions" Where were all these "EXCUSES" back then??????ITS true youll never have this problem in your birds, THEY have to spin with extreme VELOSITY...ASK GEORGE.....LOL >>LEO
|
motherlodelofts
19 posts
May 27, 2005
2:48 PM
|
No Leo they don't have to roll with extream velosity but even if they do they should'nt roll blood in the eye, it is a genetic fault.
It doesn't matter to me what you or others want to breed out of. It is fairly easy to find birds with faults such as rolling blood in the eye, chronic bumpining,rolldowns, non kitters ect. , myself I want to breed away from such faults so I get very few of the above , one fault that I do fight with in my family here and there is poor feather qaulity.
The worst one's will break off the secondaries along with some flights along with tail feathers, generally the ones that do it rock and roll hard, I could try and bullshit myself and others into thinking that the "ONLY" reason they do this is that they are super spinners of which some are, but realisticly the reason it happens is due to "poor" feather qaulity.
I don't breed out of such birds as this either, and it is a fault that "doesn't" hinder performance in the least such as rolling blood in the eye does.
but the fact is I have birds just as good or better that doesn't have poor feather so I breed away from the poor feather not towards it.
Breed what you like, but around here I don't want any part of such a fault the renders a bird useless. Good birds do "NOT" roll blood in the eye, and there are birds just as fast or faster that don't carry this fault , this I can assure you. I'm kinda at a loss why you would want to excuse a fault such as this. What good is a bird that come's out of the kit to the ground because of a weak blood vessel ? It is kinda of funny how many people make excuses for BAD faults, instead of trying to be realistic and purging the garbage they instead excuse it and try to cover it up, to each their own. Just my opinion
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on May 27, 2005 11:27 PM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
219 posts
May 27, 2005
6:47 PM
|
Scott.If you ever get a couple extra hard rolling birds with poor feather quality and have no use for them I can make use of them. David
|
rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
304 posts
May 27, 2005
10:41 PM
|
David, I have taken Lavs and put back on parents and have gotten good birds from them. Regardless of parentage, the Lavs tend to be the hottest color produced here. They can also be harder to work with. Not unusual to see the Lavs mated with a check in my breeding pens.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
motherlodelofts
20 posts
May 27, 2005
11:15 PM
|
Dave some birds are destined to be forever kitbirds, When it come's to Stock selection it is out of the Air first, from there everything else in the birds makeup is evaluated.
For me it is important for them to handle hard roll without falling apart at the seams.
|
rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
305 posts
May 27, 2005
11:31 PM
|
Hey Leo, I thought Pensom himself spoke about Birmingham Rollers coming in different colors in one of his books or numerous articles. I have all my reference materials packed for my move so I cannot find the exact quote if in fact I did read in his writings…
I guess the truth out there is that only certain colors are authentic in Birmingham’s; red and blue. This being the case, any color called a mutation or rare is actually from another breed and therefore not a true Birmingham Roller.
This is what I am referring to when I said I thought Pensom himself had colors other than the ones referenced above. This seems confusing, so what colors did he have in his lofts or did he mean variations/patterns of these colors?
Help me out!
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
220 posts
May 28, 2005
3:03 AM
|
Tony.That is the best way to mate them.David
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
221 posts
May 28, 2005
3:14 AM
|
Scott. I think I could mate one of your rollers that you say has poor feather quality and mate it to one of mine and the young would be good.
But I understand what you are saying.You produce to many other good young that you don,t have to mess with breeding fromm rollers that have poor feather quality,red eye or birds that can,t handle the roll early.David
|
Leo
Member
41 posts
May 28, 2005
7:45 AM
|
Scott, your theory on rolling blood is getting Very Weak, You just said it yourself,Your first sentence and Velosity it dosent have to be fast,But its still a fault in your birds.RECALL i was about to make public the findings of three bios. and the three months of disecting, and study from every concevable angle,Many birds for comparison, trying to determine the Roll..BUT I became Frustrated with the inability to connect with you Thickheads, I soon realized , I was about to give away something very important to me ..Only to have it....all but destroyed...and thrown to the side,"Because its a fault and thats it,"You guys put up some great answers,great theorys, I really enjoyed reading them.So you believe what you believe,ILL stand on the expertese of my findings..MY FINDINGS...LEO
|
Alan Bliven
163 posts
May 28, 2005
8:42 AM
|
What causes a blood eye and why is it dangerous?
----------
Alan
|
motherlodelofts
21 posts
May 28, 2005
9:09 AM
|
Leo keep breeding towards that fault and you will continue to have such birds to disect. Personally I breed towards birds that don't fall apart physically or mentally. What is sad is some will buy into this old wifes tale and actually breed towards these culls
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on May 28, 2005 9:22 AM
|
spinnerpigeon
10 posts
May 28, 2005
10:31 AM
|
Alan,
From what I understand, When a bird rolls "blood" in the eye. The bird is spinning at a high velocity and the blood vessels in the eye actually burst. I may be wrong on this, so if I am somebody will correct me! LOL.
Caleb
|
highroller
22 posts
May 28, 2005
11:13 AM
|
There seems to be two schools of thought here. One is that the blood vessels burst only because the bird spun at such high velocity and that it is NOT a defect. The other is that whether the bird spun at a high velocity or not the vessels broke and it IS a weakness to breed away from. Both agree that the blood in the eye is from burst blood vessels. The danger talked about in these birds would be breeding more of them if it really is a weakness or fault.
Last Edited by highroller on May 28, 2005 11:14 AM
|
Alan Bliven
164 posts
May 28, 2005
12:20 PM
|
How does the broken blood vessel harm the bird? Does the bird have vision problems or go blind?
----------
Alan
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
222 posts
May 28, 2005
12:39 PM
|
Weak blood vessels in a high velocity roller is a very minor fault and is easily bred away from.Heck if we would want to pick at every little fault in a roller we wouldn,t even breed them.The Birmingham Roller is a genetic fault in its self.LOL. David
|
motherlodelofts
22 posts
May 28, 2005
1:47 PM
|
Allan , Dave, the eye fills up from blood and the birds generally helicopter down right away ,for the most part they won't fly until it heals,much like a bird with a swollen eye from bumping, it is far from a "minor" fault. Most that I know , know better than to breed from such birds. It is nothing that you want floating around in the gene pool thats for sure.
PS Dave I want birds in stock that I breed towards , not away from. All you are doing then is covering it up.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on May 28, 2005 2:07 PM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
223 posts
May 28, 2005
2:10 PM
|
Scott.What is the odds that it would show up in future generations unless you kept inbreeding back to that same bird.? David
|
motherlodelofts
23 posts
May 28, 2005
2:21 PM
|
Dave you can cover it up like anything else , but why ? myself if I stock a bird and it produces I want to be able to breed towards it.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on May 28, 2005 2:24 PM
|
spinnerpigeon
11 posts
May 28, 2005
2:31 PM
|
Hi all,
I think it would depend on the situation for me. If I was lacking velocity and the bird showed great velocity then I would probably stock it. But if you have a family of solid spinners, or a different bird that is just as good without the fault then I probably wouldn't stock it. Just my 2 cents.
Caleb
|
