Alan Bliven
63 posts
Jan 25, 2005
9:26 PM
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Have color rollers ever won any major competitions?
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Alan
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Slobberknocker
23 posts
Jan 26, 2005
6:51 AM
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Alan,
To answer your question, YES. Blue Check is a color. Ash Red is a color. So colored birds have won every competition since the beginning of competitions.
Bob
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Jan 26, 2005 7:53 AM
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Phantom1
36 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:56 AM
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I once had a kit of clear pigeons that won a competition. There was really no contest, and mine were clearly - pardon the pun - the best in the air. Is this a color?
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Slobberknocker
32 posts
Jan 26, 2005
12:49 PM
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Alan,
Better refer to Pensom's decription of a Birmingham Roller. According to that, many, many so-called colored birds fit the bill. Besides, as I stated in another thread, the NBRC even acknoledges very few pure un-corrupted Birmingham Rollers exist in this country today. It seems that less than a handful of breeders even have them. And, according to our friend J Star, those that do have them do not part with them for anything. So, where are those of us who want good Performing Rollers to go for birds? I am afraid that if the truth came out and we took your advice of splitting the "breeds", as you call them, the True Birmingham Roller Club would consist of 5 or 6 memebers because, in order to be a member of this elite organization, you would have to be absolutely, 100% sure that you have true and pure Birmingham Rollers. It is one of those things that just can't be proven.
I know that many have pedigrees that go back years and years to specific birds. The only problem with that is that a pedigree is just a piece of paper and anything can be written on it. As was stated in another thread, many peopel sell "pedigreed" Rollers for the sake of the $$ when the pedigrees they have are good for toilet paper at best. I would hate the job of having to prove any birds to be 100% pure, never-had-anything-crossed-into-them, Birmingham Rollers.
Bob
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Steve S.
55 posts
Jan 26, 2005
12:49 PM
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Alan,
BINGO !
They are in those seperate catagories.
This whole discussion is what this is about.
Don't call one the other and pass either off as something they are not.
Bob I have to disagree with you on the premis that I know alot of men who were alive in the 60's that have rollers straight from Bill Pensom and have kept them pure.
I bought my first from him in 1964.
If anyone that had rollers back during that time and got to know the fanciers it is not hard to trace birds to the present lofts now.
I do agree a ped is just a piece of paper but it helps keep track of your ancestory and breeding records if you
truely know what is in your loft.
Other than that it is just a record to track band #'s.
Steve
Last Edited by Steve S. on Jan 26, 2005 1:03 PM
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Phantom1
40 posts
Jan 26, 2005
12:55 PM
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Alan, I'm not sure I agree 100%. There are only a handful of people that have TRUE Birmingham Rollers...as mentioned on a separate post. I don't think that everyone flying competitively has TRUE Birmingham Rollers. Yet, they do win competitions. Therefore, it is proven that un-PURE Birmingham Rollers can still beat a Birmingham Roller..."colored" or not. But how can a non-Birmingham Roller beat a true Birmingham Roller? I don't know Alan, maybe we need 3 separate clubs/competition flys. Perhaps that is the only solution. I hate to make it sound like there are a bunch of elitists running amuck, but I think there are in all categories of this "breed". I just want to get together and play...but I don't think anyone would want to play with my toys!!!!
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Cliff
32 posts
Jan 26, 2005
1:16 PM
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This thread is so far off base that it doesn't even merit a response. The guys that have won the competitions with color modifiers in their birds have been listed on this site, the NBRC itself has outlined for us that few pure BR lofts exist in the country, the genetic variability in today's Birmingham Rollers has been described, yet you guys persist in ignoring the facts and pursuing this load of bull. That's insanity! We'll just have to continue putting the facts out there, however to keep you guys from running roughshod over the hobby, which seems to be all that you are about. Cliff
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Bluesman
125 posts
Jan 26, 2005
1:36 PM
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Cliff.I think when we get the answer back from NBRC we will all know what a Birmingham Roller is.Bill Pensom started the NBRC and it is the largest roller club in the world so what they say should end all debate over the whole color versus Birmingham thing.But my guess is that no one will contact NBRC and post on this site word for word what thay say.David
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
369 posts
Jan 26, 2005
1:48 PM
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Alan, a good friend of mine is probably the next most notable name for having flown colored rollers and WON. He nearly one the WC, has placed in the top ten many, many times, won our clubs Flyer of the Year for kicking everyone's ass with those colored birds, including names like Higgins, Parker and Decker. Those birds, indigo checks, andalusians, opals...earned him his Master Flyer award. That is just one man who proved that unique colored rollers can rip with the best of them. I have seen it personally which is why I have a few of them around. So do birds of color win competitions? I hope this answers your question.
Brian.
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Mother lode lofts
416 posts
Jan 26, 2005
2:59 PM
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Brian if they are looking for a super hero, he would be it. he is a hell of a roller man to boot !!!! But how many color birds were in those kits ? When he was here he told me that he as scrapping them except for a couple of select pair as he felt that they were holding him back to much (his words not mine) Now whether he did or not I don't know.
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RodB
37 posts
Jan 26, 2005
3:00 PM
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When we judge the quality of a family or strain its unwise to judge it based only on its most outstanding individuals or one great kit , the strengh of a family or strain is about the average that comes from it .
Most any bunch of birds bred for performance can throw some good ones and even a great one here and there can come from ordinary stock , those greats that come from ordinary stock are freaks just like Sea Biscut and heaps of other freaks of nature ! and like roll of the dice freak performers in all animal competitions they dont breed on .
If the colored birds are of the same "average quality" as the old familys that are selfs , then colored birds will win more than a comp here and there and they will be able to win big open comps and they will be able to do it in the hands of more than one or two men .
A family must be judged on the average that comes from it , at what level its average can compete in , and then how many great performers the family has produced and one of the most important factors in the equation is how long has it been doing for .
Rod
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Mother lode lofts
417 posts
Jan 26, 2005
3:12 PM
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Hmmm just keep em confused right gents. There are still a lot of lofts that have not allowed the gene pools to be polluted. In fact I know of very few out of the main stream. Some of these people that you guys are selling these substandard (that is politicaly correct as I can come up with) birds to are going to figure it out sooner or later.
It allways turns the same way , when all else fails "mongralize" every loft in the country. Don't think that these people are going to stay ignorant forever
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Slobberknocker
37 posts
Jan 26, 2005
3:48 PM
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Gee Scott,
I compliment you in a few posts and them you come right back with the "M" word. Come on, bud, don't get so worked up over the whole thing. You have the birds you like and we have the birds we like. If you choose to cull 90% of what you raise and give the other 10% to your buddies that is your right. But please don't criticize the rest of us for doing what we do. it is as you say, if someone is selling "substandard" birds, it will come back to bite them. The problem is that you lump everyone with a "colored" bird in their loft in the same group.
In essence, there are two types of color breeders out there. The ones who are truly working toward getting better quality spinners in the colors they want and those who sell painted up barn pigeons to the unsuspecting buyer.
There are also two type of BR breeders as well. Those who fly in the comps, do well, and are humble about their experiences and willing to share ideas and birds to anyone they can. The others fly in the comps, may do well but they criticize everyone else for what they do and then try to sell high priced birds with long doctored up pedigrees and a lot of BS about how good their birds are to the unsuspecting buyer.
I need to start a new thread.....
Bob
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
372 posts
Jan 26, 2005
4:16 PM
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Hey Scott, during the time when he was kicking ass, there were many birds of "color" in those kits, primarily andalusians and a few opals and the related birds off those same pairs that just didn't happen to show odd colors. He has gotten away from the odd stuff he and Doug were partners on, but has retained the andalusian stuff which is inbred infused with his 1470 stuff largely because that is where the speed is at within that particular family he created. Basically those are the ones that cut it, the others simply didn't which I'm sure is what he relayed to you when he was there visitin. There is a lot to it, which you and I have discussed over the phone, things that to discuss here would be way over the heads of many who read these posts and I still believe those things to be the biggest hurdle when dealing with trying to get the most out of the more exotic matings.
Brian.
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Mother lode lofts
421 posts
Jan 26, 2005
4:26 PM
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Brian there is a lot more to it no doubt and it far from cut and dry. The Andys seem to be the ones that are further along in most the serious fliers lofts that play with color. Why do you think that is ? is it due to the original making of the birds you think that just made it easier ?
Now I know that Randy had and has some top shelf birds over there also that were not polluted, correct ?
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
374 posts
Jan 26, 2005
4:45 PM
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Scott, Here's my take on what you mentioned about the Andys being way farther ahead of the other colors. One is it was most likely one of the first introductions, thus decades have passed and improvement secured. Second is that being a simple co-dominant, once a person had the color expressed, there was no need to ever go back to any F1 or other gene pool. A person would simply select for the performance and if enough andalusians or indigos were produced, the percentage of suitable birds was greatly enhanced. One thing that makes indigo and dominant opal different than most of the other colors discussed here is that all you need is the color, one time, in the family and you move on, the only consideration being keeping at least one or two indigo expressing birds in the loft, constantly replacing them with better offspring each year and making sure to mate them back into the stronghold of the original gene pool. Basically if percentages work in favor of the breeder, the color simply comes along for the ride. Indigo doesn't appear to be a genetic manipulator such as some colors can be. Probably even less than recessive red can be. The color part is easy. The mind part is another novel in itself.
As far as Randy having unpolluted stuff over there, sure he does, even still has 1470 himself. That bird and its offspring were and I am sure still are the core foundation for what all of his best birds are built upon. Keep in mind too that hybrid vigor is one of his strong points, something he is a master of exploiting, probably better than anyone I know of.
By the way, I told my 198 hen about her new boyfriend you were sending down, she got all excited but is starting to think I was just yankin her chain..LOL.
Brian.
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Mother lode lofts
423 posts
Jan 26, 2005
5:39 PM
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The Mental is allways the big part no matter what. Maybe there are other advantages also though. It was pulled from the Homer as I understand it. Which in it's self is a sporting breed that has been bred to have heart and also strength, this has to play in to some extent you think ? I've allways thought of the hybred vigor aspect but I don't see the advantage of it with the color birds due to you can get the same vigor with birds that are built much better. Tell that hen that he'll be on the way soon.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 26, 2005 5:42 PM
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JUrbon
47 posts
Jan 26, 2005
6:04 PM
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Bob, I have been reading this post and it has become almost comical. I hear all of the color critics talking about how the colors have all come from crossbreeding and then I here you make the statement that even the blues and blacks come from color breeding. What you are failing to grasp is the fact that your color birds were paired up because of their appearance. Now they may have been paired up with the roll in mind also but the color of them also came into that decision. The difference is that yes I do get 60-70 % of my birds alll the same color but you know what? I really dont care about what color they are.Every bird in my stock loft was pick out of the air and absolutely no thought went into their color. I would dare to say that Scott and Kenny feel the same way. I am not saying that your methods are wrong however I will go out on a limb and say that if you play the % game then you will see that the largest % of competitive fliers feel this way also. If somebody is crossing something into their rollers than shame on them BUT they pay the feed bill so just put all of your card on the table before selling these birds to somebody that is interested in flying rollers and we wont be having this discussion anymore. Again these are just my thoughts, Joe Urbon
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Bluesman
132 posts
Jan 26, 2005
6:25 PM
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Joe.You made a good point.It is all in the percentage game in competition.Why did Bill Pensom leave the Pensom Roller Club and start the NBRC?Why did Bill Pensom never compete?What has happened to the deep rollers of Pensoms time?They were bred shorter so they could get more points in competition.Where has the Birmingham been brought to since arriving in the U.S. Shorter and shorter rolls just to stay in competition.Questions us newcomers to competition would like answers to.David
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Mother lode lofts
426 posts
Jan 26, 2005
6:33 PM
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Shorter is good for competition ? be pretty darn boring don't you think Dave ? Who the hell wants short birds ? Do you think that short birds are winning these big flys ? Bill Pensome did compete but not in this country. What kept him out of it was the "competion Tumbler rules" as they were a set back for the Birmingham as turns were scored with no min depth or qaulity. The rules today are for the Birmingham and qaulity and depth are awarded heavily depending on how hight the qaulity and how deep.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 26, 2005 6:46 PM
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Bluesman
134 posts
Jan 26, 2005
6:44 PM
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Scott.What was the average Birmingham Roller doing(depth)before there was competition in this country and what is the average they are doing now? DAvid
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JUrbon
48 posts
Jan 26, 2005
6:56 PM
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David that is what the guys use to say 20 years ago but however I have seen better birds over the last 10 years than I ever seen when I first got started in rollers. The deep rollers back then were much more boring to watch than even a frequent kit of 10 footers. This was because the deep birds would only roll 2-3 times in 10 minutes and most could not hold a good spin for very far. Also getting back to the shorter birds now days if you get a chance then you should go out and see some of the top kits in your region because there has been a steady trend for the last few years to breed the deeper birds. I can't speak for everyone but myself I like my kit in the 25-30 foot range. That is a long way from the 100+ footers of the past but mine will keep it up for an hour sometimes better than once per minute. This increase in depth that guys are breeding for has alot to do with the Quality and Depth multipliers that are now given in the major flies and that most local clubs have also abopted. You will not see any fly on a national level that is won by a bunch of 10 footers. Not at least in the last couple years. Joe Urbon
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Mother lode lofts
428 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:05 PM
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Dave there are so many factors involved that make this a hard question to answer Pensom makes mention that a truelly good bird being able to hold it to ten yards I think it was, but some can go deeper (he also makes mention of 3 yard birds). In other words depth is "great" as long as the qaulity is maintained which still holds true today. There isn't a bird in my A-team that isn't capable of at least 25 ft. does that mean everytime that they roll they are 25 ft. no, Dave I don't know of anyone flying comps that isn't shooting for the highest qaulity with depth that they can, plus they are awarded to heavily not to. Dave the fact is these birds can only go so deep and maintain qaulity. Depth in itself seems pretty easy for me to breed. It is depth with qaulity and heart where those percentages of deep ones starts taking hard hits. Depth without qaulity means absolutly nothing
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 26, 2005 7:09 PM
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Bluesman
135 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:35 PM
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Joe I agree. I too like the rollers better now than in the 50s & 60s.But from the very first question I asked about when was a roller not called a Birmingham Roller and any of the other threads that spawned off of it.I have been condemed for my crossbred mongrels and told that they were not Birmingham Rollers.I am putting my cards on the table now.We had this discussion last year and being new to the competive side of rollers I let things go as they were.Same as now.They were crossbred Rollers.I know how good my rollers roll.I have been blessed to get some of the best rollers bred in the world.I sell any excess birds I raise.No culls or junk.If I fly it and it dosent roll it gets its neck stretched.Same goes for the other faults.Kits everyone knows(I tell them) that not all will turn out to be good.This year I decided that any of my Turner and Mason young I raised I was going to put my name and phone number on them.That way anyone who bought any of my birds weither direct or indirect would know they came from me.Good or bad I want to know.If its bad stretch it.Don,t pass it on.
I seen on the NBRC site that you could order these bands and you didn,t have to be a member.I contacted Henry Cook and after having several conversations ordered some.One of the questions I asked was about my rollers.He told me that if it rolled to the specifactions of a Birmingham Roller then it was a BR.He was the only one to invite me to join the NBRC.No one on these threads have ever asked me to join.So this time from the very beginning a simple question I asked has turned into the color,crossbreeds against the true Birmingham Roller.My birds & others have been trashed,we have been called feather merchants,made fun of and even told we should take are color bred crossbreeds and start our own club.So now it has come down to what NBRC has to say.I won,t accept anything else and I won,t go away.Either my birds are Birmingham Rollers regardless of color or they are not.Not competitor against the backyard fancier just Birminghams or not.If they arent I will be the first to say I was wrong.David
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
376 posts
Jan 26, 2005
11:22 PM
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I believe you are right about the homer. That is the story I was told and read. Kind of odd now that I think about it that I can never recall loosing one of the birds down off of that family in an overfly, regardless of its actual color. Could just be coincidence though. I suspect that you are right about the sporting aspect of the homer helping the guys get where they wanted to be much faster. Hard to say, just speculation really. I'll tell the hen her boyfriend will be around soon..lol. Thanks again dude.
Brian.
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Cliff
38 posts
Jan 27, 2005
3:41 PM
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David, You asked why Pensom left the club. it's my understanding that he left because of the criticism from other members who thought THEY knew it all, and for not being appreciated for what he was trying to do. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Sounds familiar! Cliff
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J_Star
170 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:28 PM
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For those ones who like to create new colors (bling-bling rollers). There is no where that you can find baldhead recessive red rollers. Won't you guys create one. Just a thought....
Jay
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Phantom1
72 posts
Jan 28, 2005
6:33 AM
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Jay, do you have Rec. Red in your loft? Have about a Blue-Check Bald or a Black Bald? Mate them together.
But I guess then you'd be mating for color - despite that all the birds you'd be breeding from would be within your family. Unheard of ain't it! LOL!
Jay, if you're serious about making this happen, let me know. I should be able to point you in the right direction. But the key point to remember is still breeding from quality birds. It doesn't do any good to go out and just find a Rec. Red and a mate you know nothing about.
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Jan 28, 2005 7:04 AM
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Slobberknocker
52 posts
Jan 28, 2005
7:15 AM
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Good post Phantom,
Although many won't admit it, even some of the top WC competition guys breed for color. Not necessarily rare colors as they are called, but color nontheless.
Here is a good point to back this statement. When the birds are in the air, I understand the one bird can totally mess up the kit and cost you points. A bird with white flights or white flights on just one wing can create the optical illusion of being off balance in the air and during the roll. Those who are so serious about winning would not want to take this chance I should think. Therefore, they breed for colored flights and dark colored birds. Anything that comes out with a substantial amount of white on it is disposed of.
Point is, these guys are breeding for color within the family of birds that they have whether they call it that or not.
Bob
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Leo
51 posts
Jan 28, 2005
7:55 AM
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Jay, When you spoke of rec.red balds,These are birds and colors of 20s thru 50s that faded into history. My father and myself judged many,many balds during those yrs when i was old enough.When the American Baldhead Roller Club was formed, I was really excited and could vision great things. but then, the bad news came, one of the Winners in a show said "EVEN THE PENSOM BOYS WERE IMPRESSED".I realised that these balds were going to the pensom ;style; Then when i saw the champions...? THEY WERE NOTHING BUT JUNK..PURE DOGFOOD..They had no idea how one should be marked...They were far from the real Baldhead.we called velvet blacks, butter yellows, etc.To make matters worse,they were 95%checks.Jay i have recessive red,yellow, lav,silver red bar,black well marked balds,These birds are nice birds.I just want you to know all is not lost yet....LEO
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J_Star
177 posts
Jan 28, 2005
12:15 PM
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Then if you guys say that they are easy to make, how come we don't see them anywhere like the other "normal" color birds such as the beard, badges, bellheads among others? Just wondering. Thanks
Jay
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Phantom1
83 posts
Jan 28, 2005
12:37 PM
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Jay, me personally, I can't stand Rec. Red. I think it's a rather intrusive color and can easily take over your loft. It doesn't exist in my family of birds, nor is it a priority to me to obtain. If this is a color with the baldhead pattern that you'd like to see on your birds, I would encourage you to go for it. But just as I said before, breed from the best two qualified candidates for the project. It won't do you any good to just pick any cock and any hen and throw them together for the sake of obtaining the color(s) you're after.
Eric
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Slobberknocker
57 posts
Jan 28, 2005
1:06 PM
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Then if you guys say that they are easy to make, how come we don't see them anywhere like the other "normal" color birds such as the beard, badges, bellheads among others?
Jay, That would mean breeding for color and we can't have that now, can we....? I would hate to tell you how to go about getting the Rec. Red Balds for fear of being dumped on here.
Bob
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Leo
52 posts
Jan 28, 2005
1:59 PM
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Phantom````~,In the Pensom family,blacks together will throw rec reds.These reds are valuable in your breeding program,you dont have to go hunting for it,Pensom remarked how valuable this color was to his breeding program, I breed 514 both black and get rec red in 1 out of 6 youngsters,fabulous performers also.....LEO
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Phantom1
84 posts
Jan 28, 2005
2:48 PM
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Hi Leo! Yes, Rec. Red can be carried by birds and not shown. For it to be produced, it has to be on both the cock's side and the hen's side. I'm sure there are many wonderful Rec. Reds in people's loft. It's just not a color that I like to have around. I was trying to entertain Jay's question as to why I didn't try to breed them in the baldhead pattern is all.
Eric
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J_Star
179 posts
Jan 28, 2005
4:09 PM
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The reason I posted that question is because on AD3 site, BMC posted that you can not see them anywhere. I have never seen them either and was wondering if it can be easily created. I have no desire to breed for color. Only best to best will do. I thought it was a rare color in the BR breed. thanks for all your input.
Jay
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Slobberknocker
60 posts
Jan 28, 2005
4:15 PM
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Jay,
Recessive Red and/or the Bald markings are not rare in the BR or any other type of Rollers. Please pay attention and learn your facts before posting.
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J_Star
180 posts
Jan 28, 2005
4:20 PM
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Bob, you misunderstood the question. R.Red with only baldhead, no white flights or tail. Complete red bird, just the head is white. I have seen them in tumblers only. That is what I am talking about. You guys are the experts in color genetics and that's why I am asking you.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jan 28, 2005 4:21 PM
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bluebar
17 posts
Jan 28, 2005
5:36 PM
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Gentlemen:
Just an aside. You will most likely never breed a recessive red baldhead, since there is something in the interaction of Bh and e, that prevents baldhead from expressing itself on a recessive red phenotype. EVERY red baldhead that has ever been found in any breed has turned out on testing to be ash-red (often with a deep bronze) that mimics recessive red in color, but is NOT recessive red. Every recessive red with baldhead (the gene - not the marking in Birminghams where baldhead is actually the putting together of three separate factors - white flights, white tail, and baldhead (Bh)) turns out to be a mottled bird of some sort.
Frank Mosca
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J_Star
184 posts
Jan 28, 2005
5:46 PM
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Thanks Frank. That is what I am trying to get to. I have never seen one. For those fanciers who play with colors, the chalange that I am trying to put on the table is can you develop one. People said that when you cross to get fancy colors can not be done and have good performance. But can you do baldhead R. Red with crossing B. Rollers together and get that elusive paint job.
Jay
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JUrbon
50 posts
Jan 28, 2005
6:09 PM
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Frank, That was an interesting post and I really never gave it much thought but I havent seen a Rec. red BH either and I guess that would explain why. I have another question for you that I hope you can answer. I have a whole bunch of Rec Red in my loft and in fact realistically I could get Rec Red young from any pairing that I put together but my question is this. If Rec Red is such a powerful gene and as overpowering as everyone says it is than how come it is behind every bird in my loft yet I will raise 3 to 1 blacks to reds?
As you well know I really dont give a hoot about color and if I did I would surely be trying to get something in the air besides blacks but this comes across my mind everytime I hear the comment that RR is to overpowering. Thanks for any comments that you are willing to give me. Joe Urbon
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Phantom1
87 posts
Jan 28, 2005
7:53 PM
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Hi Jay - It is my understanding that Rec. Red acts as a mask. The bird can be solid red but only masking - say Black. You most often see the only variation (marking if you will) of Rec. Red to be mottles. If the rules of genetics apply with Rec. Red and Mottles the same to Rec. Red and Baldhead (marking), then it should be possible. Of course, the GOOD baldheads are bred baldhead to baldhead to make the (marking) breed true. So if you were to take a baldhead, bred from baldheads, making it pure for the baldhead marking, and bred that to a Rec. Red. You might get a solid red bird, but it would still be masking baldhead. Mating that bird to say a sibling from the same mating, you should be able to produce Rec. Red Balds.
Eric
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Keith
11 posts
Jan 29, 2005
9:51 AM
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Eric,
The sad part of this is that someone would try it. First you need to breed for GOOD baldheads (what about the roll?), then you need to introduce Recessive Red back into it and breed again for GOOD Recessive Red baldheads (what about the roll?) . Lets say that you are really good and have manage to get RR baldheads that will roll, but the quality just isn’t as good as you would like. What are you going to breed it to that wont mess up that GOOD baldhead marking?
Got to try anyway!!! So you breed your best baldy to your best roller. Then you pick the best baldy from that breeding and go back to the baldy try to get that GOOD baldhead again. (notice that I didn’t say best roller).
I would say that a kit of RR baldheads would never be competitive in a major fly even if it could be done.
Keith
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highroller
81 posts
Jan 29, 2005
9:59 AM
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Joe,
If you mate two birds carrying rec. red but not expressing it you would expect to get about 25% rec. red young. If you mate a bird expressing rec. red to one just carrying it you should see about 50% rec. red young. With those two pairings operating in your loft I can see where you get the 3 to 1 ratio. Sounds right on the money.
Dan
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bluebar
18 posts
Jan 29, 2005
5:06 PM
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Joe:
"By George, I believe they've got it!"
Oh, it's so nice to see some folks who have the genetics down, and they're right so let me just expand a bit on what you've already been told.
If you pair two recessive red birds, you will get 100% recessive red young.
If you pair two birds heterozygous for (carrying)recessive red, you will get
25% homozygous wild type (just means here that they DON'T carry recessive red);
50% heterozygous for recessive red;
25% homozygous recessive red (they are recessive reds)
People usually don't understand that no color "takes" over unless there is some selection, either intentional by the breeder or by some natural process. What happens is that their is an equilibrium that develops in a population so that the gene frequency is always about the same.
There is something called the "founder principal" that can skew this -- that just means the first animals (in this case pigeons) that go somewhere - to a new loft - only carry a portion of the whole gene pool in the original location.
For example: if you sold a recessive red cock and a recessive red hen from your stock to a new breeder and that's all he got from anyone, all he'd show in his loft phenotypically would be recessive red birds. 100% of the birds in his loft even five or ten years from now, would be recessive reds. People might talk about the "overpowering potency" of recessive red to show itself in "your" family, but it would be merely a function of the original foundation.
Because recessive genes aren't simply wiped out of existance when they are in a heterozygous state, some folks think they're long gone even though they are being carried along in the population.
Suppose you sold one of your blacks carrying recessive red. For ten years, this bird and its progeny are mated to birds in another loft, none of which carries recessive red. Suddenly, in the tenth year, one of the great-great- great grandchildren of your original bird is mated to one of its distant relatives on another side in that loft and both are carrying recessive red from your original black. Bam, recessive red young show up in the loft and some worry about it "taking over".
Hope this helps - and BTW I've seen some of your blacks. They are absolutely gorgeous!
Frank
Last Edited by bluebar on Jan 29, 2005 5:07 PM
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bluebar
19 posts
Jan 29, 2005
5:11 PM
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JStar:
The "recessive red" birds you've seen with the white heads are actually ash-red bronze. This bronze darkens the flights so that they too appear dark red rather than the ash color we're used to seeing in the ash-reds. You can see similar colored birds in single crested Priests also. On testing, everyone of the tumblers, priests, and others has been found to be ash-red, bronze, Baldhead - sometimes called monk-marked. These birds are deep, deep red - almost oxblood in color and a great tribute to the breeders, but they aren't recessive red birds. Check out the Lebanons for deep red birds that are also ash-reds with bronze and not recessive reds.
Frank
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Phantom1
90 posts
Jan 29, 2005
5:41 PM
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Notice about, in my original response to Jay, that I made note to select the best to the best as mates. IF you don't have the birds, I'm sorry. Maybe you shouldn't attempt to develop the color you're after. I'll leave it at that.
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J_Star
187 posts
Jan 29, 2005
6:12 PM
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Frank, Probably that those tumblers were Ash-red bronze as you say, but they looked to the eye as if R. Red. My conclusion from reading your post is that it cannot be done, no way no how. I just thought that it would be a challenge that breeders could strive to get and keep the performance of the birds at the same time. Thanks for the input everyone.
Jay
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Bluesman
176 posts
Jan 29, 2005
6:41 PM
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Frank.You have a great website.You have helped me a lot the past couple of years.To me you are like E.F.Hutton."When you talk I listen". LOL. Thanks. David
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JUrbon
51 posts
Jan 29, 2005
6:42 PM
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Thanks, Dan and Frank for your replies and thanks Frank for the kind words although I really do not try for the blacks that is just the way I have bred them out of the air. The last 10 years everyone of my top stock birds have come down off blacks that were pulled out of the air for their performance only.
Frank if you would take a look at my website and look at the hen on my favorite birds page I have a question for you regarding her but I will email you directly regarding it if that is ok. Her band # is 23-98-NCRC. Take a look also at her father which is # 924-97-NBRC as seing him might yelp you out with my questions. My site is http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/. Thanks, Joe Urbon
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