Bluesman
178 posts
Jan 29, 2005
7:07 PM
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Joe.I just looked at your site.Nice looking birds.I wish I could take pics that good.David
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bluebar
20 posts
Jan 29, 2005
7:32 PM
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Thanks to you both. And JStar - they look to all our eyes as recessive reds. It's only within about the last fifteen years or so that we have (through a lot of breeding tests) realized that they AREN'T recessive red.
One thing that most forget in pigeon breeding, I don't care whether it's roller breeder, color pigeon breeding, racing pigeon breeding, etc. -- pigeons have been bred by humans very likely for over 3000 years. That means there are lots of combinations of various genes that have been put together and there are lots of look-alike phenotypes that really have not much in common genetically.
Breeders are also very passionate in what they consider to be the "true" bird. That's why minus books, TV, radio, easy travel (and often even with them)-- we have very very distinct forms that have continued their existance when a mere 50 kilometers apart.
Frank
Frank
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bluebar
21 posts
Jan 29, 2005
8:06 PM
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Joe,
My e-mail address is bluecheck@lycos.com
I looked at that hen. She looks to be a spread ash (the ash-red equivalent of black, which is Spread (blue).
If that's the question?, then I'm psychic. :-)
If not, the e-mail is above for the real one.
Also: I checked out some of the other birds - 970-01-NCRC
That ash-bird looks to be heterozygous for recessive red also. Note the darker flights and tail rather than the lighter ash common to birds not het for recessive red.
Am I correct? (If so, it's a good shot to give everyone here a chance to see what het recessive ash-reds look like)
Frank
Frank
Last Edited by bluebar on Jan 29, 2005 8:11 PM
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JUrbon
52 posts
Jan 29, 2005
9:05 PM
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frank the ash red hen # 970 has RR in her background however I have had her on the same cock for three years due to exceptional offspring and the cock is also an ash red so that is all I get from them. The other hen # 23 is as you stated an ash red spread from what you and others have told me but my question is that I have had her on a RR cock and all I have gotten out of her is ash red ticks and black selfs and I want to make sure tha black selfs are not the product of another cock jumping her.I do not get involved in the color genetics so I am not sure if I should trust the offspring. one of the ash red tick offspring is also on that page.# 0125 and he is a wonderful 30 footer very consistant with depth and style.Joe Urbon
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bluebar
23 posts
Jan 29, 2005
9:34 PM
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Hi Joe,
Here's what's going on with the Ash-red pair. The hen is het for recessive red, but chances are that the cock is not. It also sounds like he's homozygous for ash-red so all you're getting out of that pair is homo ash-reds with half of them (cock & hen both) carrying recessive red from the mom.
The second pair of birds is doing this.
You have a recessive red cock. Remember recessive red is merely an "overcoat". ALL pigeons are one of three pigments: ash-red, blue-black, or brown. Your recessive red cock is blue-black and likely carrying Spread (from your family this is to be expected. So basically, you have a Black cock with a recessive red overcoat topping your Spread ash-red hen.
That means you have a sex-linked mating. ALL the blue-blacks are hens and all the ash-reds are cocks. All these cocks are heterozygous for blue-black from the daddy, hence the black flecking you see in them.
I think you can with almost 100% accuracy state that he's the daddy.
Now, could she have been topped by another black cock or by another recessive red cock that's covering black, sure. That's a function of your loft set-up. If she's in an individual set up with him, then no. In not and he's busy somewhere else when she's getting ready to lay, then sure. If your hens are like the ones I had, they will squat for any cock around when that egg is dropping.
Frank
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Bluesman
181 posts
Jan 30, 2005
3:46 AM
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Frank & Joe.Now these are the kind of post that keep bringing me back to Tony's site.I am fed up with all this other garbage.Thanks fellows.David
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Cliff
43 posts
Jan 31, 2005
9:32 AM
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Frank, Can one increase the bronzing in a kite bronze by mating it to a recessive red? I have seen some kite bronze birds that are just washed out black and some that seem to carry a beautiful reddish black coloration (that I would like to re-produce.) My RR also carry excellent depth and frequency so it helps the roll too. Cliff
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bluebar
25 posts
Jan 31, 2005
3:18 PM
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Cliff,
Yeah, quite often crossing in the recessive red help because a lot of these are also carrying other bronze. A lot of birds also show a deep bronze spreading from the center of the flights on out, these are ones that will give you good kites. What often helps too is to check your birds that show this deep bronze and see if they are also carrying grease quills. You will find these along the flanks and they are feathers that look like they are unopened partially - like little paint brushes.
The deep bronzes of the kites are attractive and lots of times it's the grease quills that make them stand out. In fact, if you go look at the blacks that Joe Urbon has at his website, I can almost guarantee you just from their look and shine that they also have the grease quills.
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