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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Rollers vs. Birmingham Rollers
Rollers vs. Birmingham Rollers
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Mount Airy Lofts
25 posts
Jan 22, 2005
3:23 PM
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The debate all ways fall back to this topic. What's the difference-asked by alot of new comers?
Let's go back to the basics. The basics would be, any bird that could execute a string of back-to-back sommersults would be considered a Roller in the air or on the ground. This name could be tagged to any breed of pigeon that meets the standard. A roller is simply just that, a pigeon that is capable of stringing back-to-back sommersults together.
My take for a Roller to be considered a Birmingham Roller is... it must take to the air when liberated, it must be capable of executing back-to-back sommersults with extreme velocity, with good to ultimate style, and able to stop it's performance on a dime to shoot back to it's flock. Just because it can perform to that standard still doesn't mean it is a Birmingham Roller, the key why a Birmingham Roller is a Birmingham Roller is it's heritage. Remember, why they are Birmingham Rollers in the first place... this branch of Roller was BORN in BIRMINGHAM, England. Plain and simple! If your family has been kept from any cross breeding (mongrelizing) from the time it was BORN in BIRMINGHAM,England and meet the standard of performance, then it is a Birmingham Roller Pigeon.
Remember the basics!! If you take another breed of pigeon, let just use the oriental frill and mate it to a Birmingham Roller... what would you call this new breed? If you call the progency of this mating Birmingham Rollers, then you are only fooling yourself. Even if you mate the Oriental Frill/Birmingham Roller back to a Birmingham Roller a million times, it still can not merit the Birmingham Roller name. Remember, the Birmingham Roller is a set breed born in BIRMINGHAM, England. Even if you get these Frill/Birmingham/Birmingham/etc. to perform to the standard of a Birmingham Roller (and there are a few out there who is just as good as the real thing due to the knowledge of breeding and flying Birmingham Rollers), remember where it was born.
If it was born in your own back yard by two different breeds of pigeons (as exampled a Oriental Frill x a Birmingham Roller) and perform to the standard of a Birmingham Roller, then it is just a Roller (the name you wish to call it is your choice, for example Crest Rollers, Opal Rollers, etc.) Calling this new breed a Birmingham Roller which is already a set breed for over a hundred years is plain just wrong and only add in the confusion of why we have this problem in the first place.
Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with having RARE color factor rollers... the problem lies in what they are called that really bugs most guys. Please do alot of research in the origin of your stock and hopefully you'll have your answer.
REMEMBER, most feather merchants won't ammit to cross breeding. If your stock traces back to a feather merchant, don't be surpise to see the RARE color factors in your family. RARE color sells! Feather merchants milk this!!
Get out of your own back yard and open your eyes to the quality of birds out there. You can't compare how good or bad your stock is until you visit, visit, visit other fliers. Take it from a person who new no better. I thought I had top notch Birmingham Rollers. My birds would do all sorts of flips, tumbles, tail rides, sloppy deep rolling, etc. To my knowledge, my birds were as good as they get. What a awakening when visited the consistantly top fliers in my area. Guess where my birds came from, you guess it, it was from a local feather merchant and had all tons of different factors (andulusions, opal, barless, silky, etc) in it. The thing was they weren't even Birmingham Rollers but just rollers if not tumblers because of their performance and their heritage. Until you reached that point, your birds will only be as good as the best you have seen. Get out and view other peoples birds in the air!
Competition or Back Yard flying... a Birmingham Roller is a Birmingham Roller!
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fhtfire
91 posts
Jan 22, 2005
6:46 PM
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Great post! You are totally right...the name is just from its origin of bloodline. The Texas long horn was developed in Texas...if you import some to England they are still Texas long horns..as long as they stay pure. You do not change the name just because they are imported. I have shown a lot of livestock growing up. A La Mancha goat may be a grand Champion in the ring with perfect udder attachment, body etc....but it may only milk a quart a day....but a true La Mancha dairy goat should be a gallon a day milker...or at least it better be or it is not worth having (to a dairy). So when you breed for the perfect goat it may not be the perfect dairy goat. Both are considered La Mancha goats...but one is bred for performance (MILK) and the other for the show..and it may or may not produce a lot of milk. IF you cross a nubian with a La Manch...it is no longer a La Mancha...it is a cross breed. The American Dairy Goat Association used to say..(have not been a member for 15years)..that a goat that is crossed is no longer pure again until it is bred for 6 generations with pure blood...then it can be registered as a purebred...purebred papers were blue...mongrels were brown. It could look exactly like a la mancha in the third generation and have all the characteristics...but it is not. I think it is 6 generations because it has been proven through studies on genetics that it takes six generation to be pure again. THings may have changed since I was into goats...but it is the same for pigeons too...it is a Birmingham roller if the blood is pure...no matter where the bird resides or where it hatches. I am sure there is a point genetically that a bird or animal that has been crossed will again be of pure blood. But to be honest...who can for sure say that a bird comes from here or there...or even follow a pedigree..you are still taking the owners word. Without proof you do not know. Even if you think a bird is crossed you have no right to point fingers unless you know for sure. IF you see a bird that has a tail like a fantail...then don't buy the damn thing. IF you see a bird that is doing 20ft rolls like a champ and looks like a Birmingham roller...then I will take it...Ask yourself this...if a person has a kit that is the best kit you have ever seen in your life...just filled with champs and the owner says you can have the hole kit..but 35 years ago I crossed a XYZ pigeon to see if I could get a color...but they have been pure ever since...are you going to say...nope these are shit mongrals...well that is your choice...but I will take them and say they are pure and you will never know...because they prove it in the air...my hole point is...if it does it in the air and looks like a Birmingham roller then it is...HEll nobody can say for sure right now that they have pure birds unless they brought the birds from england thereselves. I think that people are arguing points that there is no way to prove...everyone has taken someones word...and because somebodies birds roll like champs they think they must be pure....Get my point...Nobody on this page can for sure say my birds are 100% Birmingham roller unless they brought the birds over themselves from England..you have taken someones word for it and the performance backs up the word!I hear the term a "respected person" told me it was pure...guess what...that does not mean crap but only to you! Nobody on this site can truly say they have 100% pure birds unless they brought them back themselves! I am not disrespcting someones "word" but I am just trying to prove a point...that most breeds are based on human honesty! I can have my Lab knocked up by a shepard..get another lab owner to sign the papers and wow...just like that all the mongrel puppies have papers...lets say they look like a lab too...and they hunt like a lab...but you took the owners word! But if it does not hunt and kind of looks like shepard then you better move on to something else.
rock and ROLL!
Paul
Last Edited by fhtfire on Jan 22, 2005 6:47 PM
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Mother lode lofts
390 posts
Jan 22, 2005
7:05 PM
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Paul many lofts don't have this and that in them from here and there. Not much chance a pheasant pigeon in the wood pile. Most families run a tight ship, down the road you most likely will clean your own house and have a direction figured out and then you will know what I mean. Hows that hen that you got from Tony ? boy was she a sweetheart,no pheasant pigeon back there I can garantee that !!!!!! You get a loft of birds like that Paul and you will gaurd that blood like you wont believe. And then you will understand
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 22, 2005 7:40 PM
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fhtfire
92 posts
Jan 22, 2005
10:17 PM
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Scott,
I know what you mean. I know that a lot of fanciers run a tight ship. I know you and I know that you run a tight ship. I was answering the question of the name of a animal and that the name does not change after a location. But then I got sidetracked>>> I totally agree with you to keep it pure. I was only saying that a lot of pedigrees and purity is based only on a mans word and not to many men these days have a word as strong as oak. You have to see the birds fly and that is were it is at. The scores in the flies and the set up all show that there is good blood...even if you do not see the birds yourself. You picked a nice cock out of the air for me and I witnessed it roll myself and I liked it the best too..you also gave me a hen out of your stock loft and said she is damn good...the cock is a gamble...I took your word on it. So I know you and know that when you say she is a good hen...she is a good hen...and I know that cock is a gamble. But even though I know you and for sure where you stand on rollers...There is not a doubt in my mind...I have seen your birds fly and the cock fly. But do I know that anything before you had a cross 20 years ago..no I don't and maybe you do or don't. Hell, I am rambling again...LOL! I think you get my point...and I agree I am going to clean up my loft when I decide for sure what family I am going to go with. It will take a couple of seasons to see what produces what and what works for me and when I do...everything will go except the family I choose...It may be your line, Tony's, Mort, or Chuck Roe. Who knows...but there is good blood..I just have to sort through it. I raised Champion livestock for about 10 years Statewide and Nationaly...I sold a la Mancha Buck goat named Vicroy's Black Magic that I bred from my herd and it sold for 3,500.00 and it was unproven...but every one new I had the grand champions under my belt and in his blood..4 years later he was on the cover of dairy goat journal as a Proven Grand Champion Buck. His stud fee was 500.00. For a damn goat! I mean that amount of money for a damn goat...that was 15 years ago! Proven...would have been a lot more money when I sold him!..But my point is I totally understand how breeding and linebreeding works..and how to make a champion It takes time a lot of luck, proper selection and just like you said..a year where you scratch you head and say..damn I F&#*ED up on that breeding selection...I bred a bunch of crap! It happened to me...and all it did was let my competition have some fun for a year then I was back the next cleaning house!...I just need to learn what to look for and the feeding and figuring out my birds. So trust me scott...Dairy Goat shows are just as competative as Roller pigeon flys, as well as horse races, dog shows etc. Anytime you put one persons stock against another...it is tough...You know me...I do not mean to offend anybody..I just try and compare this to that..I was agreeing with you totally...I was just saying whenever humans are involved..weather it be putting a car together or breeding pigeons...sooner or later someone screws up or comes up with some bright idea that does not work. I have a dad who grew up in the South- 77years old..and old timer...and he is like you Scott...says how it is...stands up for what he believes...but his word is strong as oak....yours is too...I was just saying there are a lot that may have a word like oak on the outside...but it is just a shitty piece of drift wood on the inside.Not to many people are left in this world that are honest and have good morals. As for the breeding...I do understand...and when I had livestock...you could not Buy my top Buck and My top does for any amout of money....they were priceless...But I did the same with Goats as I am doing with my birds...try a couple different lines...breed for a couple years and see what happens..then pick the line that you like or produces the best and try and improve it with every breeding! If I bought a doe or buck from someone I wanted to see the Pedigree as well as the Sire and Damn...Grand Sire and Grand Damn if I could as well as the offspring...I wanted to see how much improvement there was over the years and how they hold up! Same as seeing the birds in the sky! If I bought a goat off a ped...I would be an idiot..the goat may be stacked with genes but I Got to see the goods for myself..handle it...look at brothers and sisters...the set up...the track record in the ring! Same as birds. I also gambeled sometimes and picked up a goat that was from a different or unknown breeder and got some good stock..and some crap...but if you do not gamble somtimes, then you will never get ahead one of my best goats came from a "Back yard" goat person..did not show....did not own a dairy..just liked goats...and I just happened upon the sale and what a beautiful animal..with a little cleaning up and a lot of work for the show ring...She was a 2 time grand champion and National Champion milker! No background of champs...but she was and produced....Breeding is all the same..you breed for the best by selective breeding...keep good records...statistics...what characteristics each animal carries and passes on....in breeding...hybrid vigor....slaughtering what is not good or "culling"...it is all the same and I understand.
As for the hen...she has a little youngster right now and will lay again soon...my first round is going to a new flier down south...He is getting a round from every pair I got with a one generation pedigree...and what fancier the dam and sire came from..Just helping the guy out...Basically is paying for shipping and Box..will get 13 or 14 squeekers to fly out and pick. Then my season begins and I hope to get some good birds like that hen...but hey who knows..she may be a dud...and the Black Cock you gave me might be my pigeon "BLACK MAGIC". Only time will tell! You DA MAN! Scott you have my full respect and if some of these guys that get all upset knew you, they would not be offended by your posts. I thank you for all that you have helped me with...and god damn it I want to see your A team! I will call you..so we can set a day to fly!
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
Last Edited by fhtfire on Jan 22, 2005 10:20 PM
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RodB
28 posts
Jan 22, 2005
10:28 PM
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Agree totally but would like to add that the real benefits of competition over back yard flying is the beginner gets a chance to hone in on the real ones , because the real ones will be not far from the winners circles in open competition , I bet in those great birds if you really know what happened and the true breeding that the great blood was there in those birds .
The true Birmingham is all about performance and he is bred with that being the only criteria in mind and thats all it needs to be to produce beautiful comformation , because you carnt dance if your pants dont fit , you cannot have great performace in missmade animals .
I think popularity of the bird and competition are growing at a fast rate and will weed out a lot of crosses and not worthy birds or should I say expose them , when the World Cup gets really going , and I believe it will get going in a big way , wait and see the impact that it has on the Birmingham Roller world wide , things are really going to hot up and I think this breed will explode over the next ten years .
What will that mean , for one there will be truck loads of mediocre birds all over the place but by the same token the best Birmingham Rollers are yet to be bred if you believe the breed is going to improve by all these new commers from all over the world chasing the same dream , but the best birds 100 yrs from now will be down from the best birds of today, the ones at the core , the true Birmingham Roller .
And I,ll bet that as many overseas guys hook into this competition with dedication money and time that the quality of the top level Rollers will be awesome in years to come , they wont be better than the best now , there will be just more of them , competition drives performance and these birds are going into world wide competition in a big way , the sport has only really just begun , you guys are sitting on a rocket ship , the World cup is going to get very big over the next ten years .
Because of the ease of having these birds , the cheap cost of upkeep , then you add to the fact that they will really challenge you to the max mentally if you are full on for the world cup and to top it off you get to compete against the world from your own backyard , man what a hobby !
A World Cup win is very prestigous to the guy that won it ,I would love to be able to go to my grave being a recognized world champion of anything , these birds allow the common man that chance and thats a magnificent gift that the Birmingham Roller gives us .
Exciting times ahead for the Birmingham Roller .
Rod
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Bluesman
82 posts
Jan 23, 2005
4:09 AM
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Rod.I agree 100%.This roller thing is growing leaps and bounds.And it's just getting started.Where is all the newcomers going to get their start? From the few that have kept the Pensom Strain Pure and have to wait 4 or 5 years to say they have 100% pure Pensom Stock before they get to start? Notice I am saying Pensom Strain.They are just one of the strains from England.(Still Biringham Rollers.)Or are they going to turn to the backyard flyer that dosen't compete(like me) to get started.(Still Birmingham Rollers.)There is a lot of people up and down the East Coast that raise as good of rollers as are flown in the World Cup that don,t compete.I could sell every bird I raise the demand is that great.Take me for my word I Cull almost as many birds a year than I sell.Some have told me I am to hard on my young birds.I have been trying to back off and be a little more patient but I have found if a bird has a problem at 4 month old it will still become a problem later on.Only what meets my standard(thats high) get into my Breeding Loft.
I argue this point(Birmingham or not) just because it's the way I see it.Untill I have total proof I will do so.Not because I sell some birds or that I have some color birds in my loft.I have never crossed another breed into my rollers.I have no need to.It is already there.All I ever hear is if they were not what Pensom brought to the U.S. then they are not Birminghams.The more research I do I am learning.
Look at Scott's post on the other thread how many countries imported from England.Those English birds sure have been busy.He also said that if a odd color did pop up they would cull it.Bet they didn,t cull the parents.Then someone imports from this loft and maybe gets the parents that threw this odd color and it pops up again and someone keeps it this time and cultivates it and Guess What We are right back to where we are debating this very thing.If Stan Arnold finds a Crest in his birds and cultivates that Crest why does he get Stomped on and say his birds are not Birmingham's? If Reduced,Barless,Milky etc pops up in my rollers and I cultivate it why am I critized? My question still remains.When is a Roller not a Birmingham Roller?
Has anyone seen the fellow from Holland (Heine ?)(probably not spelled right Sorry) birds?I hear he has a lot of color in his birds.
Scott.You know I respect you.You have helped me a lot in the past year and any debates we get into is just that.When I ask I question I am asking for your's and everyone's opinion.I have always said that at least you will reply to a post when it's asked.I have found over the past few years that there seems to be a division between the Comp.fellows and the backyard flier.Why I don,t know.I have found few Comp.fliers that will give info to the backyard flier.Scott you and Brian have always been here giving freely your opinions.By the way;Where is Brian.Haven,t heard from him in awhile.LOL
Paul.WOW.Couple of really good post.My youngest son raises Boer goats.He paid big bucks for some of them.His Billy was way out there.Scared me half to death.LOL No goat is worth that much.Unless you need it.He say's he has already paid for himself.
Thats all for now.LOL David
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Mongrel lofts
45 posts
Jan 23, 2005
6:25 AM
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Dave
Hiene Biker of Holland, does have lots of pretty birmingham roller colors,, Like blue bar odd sides,badges, balds and grizzles and the likes,, you won't find any Mongrel crossed factors and patterns, like barless, toy stencil, pencil, Milky and the crossed up colors..
The English flyers scoff at the foolishness of guys crossing performance breeds on other breeds of pigeons for pretty feathers.. I have mentioned it to a couple of them, and at first,, they wouldn't even believe guys were really crossing them to get the funny feathers.. Once convinced it is happening over here,, they say, We don't have that trouble over here yet.. You can have it!! Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel lofts on Jan 23, 2005 6:31 AM
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Mother lode lofts
392 posts
Jan 23, 2005
10:18 AM
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Dave I am wearing down on this so this will be my last post on this topic. When I jump in on this it is only for one purpose and that is to inform the uninformed so that they can make thier "OWN" decision on what they want in thier loft. That way down the road they don't have to kill off an entire loft of birds such as I did when I decided to get serious about the birds.
But my original in intent was stay clear of this on this round. For some reason my name had to be dragged in and now here I am.
You know in the past when we used to have these debates (not on this forum) it allways evolved around how they stood up against the real deal,or how many generations until they are pure again and things of that nature.
Things would be thrown around like "The Birmingham Roller is a Mongral any way " or "that was added thirty years ago" but never was it an issue of where that stuff came from "NEVER", It never was a secret Dave and most of us know of someone that has done it. In fact Dave you have some birds from someone that does it but doesn't try to hide that fact,if I remeber correctly it was Milky. He does it because he enjoys it and he works hard at making something something out of them. There is a reason why they are called color "projects"
I've even had lengthy discusions with a person back in the Carolinas about it that is part of that group and we talked about why so many fall apart, I'm not talking about debating there I'm talking about a problem solving discussion. And we took it from the F-1 crosses on up.
Never have I seen the smokes screen of the orgins of these birds before except by the few here. I have figured out why but I will keep that to myself. In one way its almost like erasing the years of hard work by some if you want to look at it that way.
And now we are reaching back to the orgins of these birds ? Dave the other Imports of English birds to other countrys were not a patch work of just any birds from here and there. They were particular bloodlines and they were not imported as a novelty and if you followed them back many of the orgins would tie back into families here. And as many over here these birds are taken very very seriously and are not just kids keeping birds , they are in our blood.
Dave you have thrown out a few names of fliers over there to make what point I can't figure out. Dave not only do we know these guys but they have stayed in our homes. Actually Hiene has stayed here twice. and no they don't have what you are grasping for.
I don't see a division between the guys that are just backyard and those that compete. Some have some serious birds and many just play around with the colors and what not. I never see any problems there at least not around here and there are many.
One thing that I have seen over the last few years is decline of such birds here in N. Calif. And I think that it due to what Rod has been saying. Alot of these are just getting more serious about the birds.
And I really havn't ran accross that many color breeders while judging. One guy stands out though and that is John Jones down in San Diego, that guy has some birds !! and he'll tell you straight out "I'm a color breeder and I love it" he also has birds from Bob Scott and Norm Reed and I don't know how it all ties together in his program but no doubt he is a contender.
The biggest difference that I see Dave is that we never talk about the color of birds except as a referance to what it looks like, If there is a project it is an outside bloodline and trying to see what is there performance wise and nothing else. When we meet color in breeding isn't ever ever brought up. Thats it I'm done on this now.
PS Dave I have an idea, let me have your email and I will introduce you to a whole new world out there. You won't learn anything about color but you sure will on performance.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 23, 2005 11:10 AM
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Bluesman
86 posts
Jan 23, 2005
11:22 AM
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Scott.If you think you are wearing down from all this think how I feel.LOL
Yes it always comes back to the color thing.I really don,t care about the color.Heck I don,t have a color bird in my Lofts according to the Booklet that came with my membership packet friday.One of the articles in the booklet said Quote;Suffice it to say they come in all colors such as;white,yellow,black,red,dun,kite,bronze,lavender,tortise shell,mealy strawberry,blue check,blue bar,silver red bar,silver cream bar,silver black bar,and others.
Another article written by Jerry Higgins quote;"There have been many families of Birmingham Rollers created based on the hard colors(hard core birds)and for their creators these families perform well.In most cases these families of rollers only perform for the person who created them.A family of rollers based on the dark colors or hard core colors seems to fly high and long,the reason being these birds are very strong phyysically and mentally.You'll find these birds require a person to deal with them severly in order to make them perform correctly.Many people have become very frustrated trying to deal with these hard core birds.In most cases the only person that knows how to manage these birds is the one that created them.Because of this it makes it very difficult for a newcomer to the roller hobby to start with this type of roller."
Direct from the booklet from NBRC.
This is not about the color thing as a whole.All I want to know is #1."What is a Birminham Roller?
#2. Is all birds flown in NBRC flys & the world cup Birmingham Rollers.
#3.If not why are they being flow as such & winning competition for Birmingham Rollers.
Neither 3 of these questions are out of line and shouldn,t be that hard to answer for all us newcomers to see.I may not be new to Rollers but sure am a Greenhorn about Competition.I probably will never compete in the World Cup but I sure like what I am learning about the 11 bird kits.Who knows maybe someday I could match Ken.LOL
Ken.Next time give your competitors a sporting chance.LOL David
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Bluesman
87 posts
Jan 23, 2005
11:38 AM
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Scott.My email address is,dwsaas@innernet.net
Thanks,David
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Bluesman
95 posts
Jan 24, 2005
6:07 AM
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Scott.If you emailed me I never got it.David
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Mother lode lofts
397 posts
Jan 24, 2005
4:01 PM
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Dave yes all being flown in the W/C are Birmingham Rollers with the exception of some in this country I would venture to say. Heres an eye opener of number of qaulifiers (just an example here) S Africa 11 , UK 3, Holland Denmark 1 , Australia 2 , now there was something like 60 or so total qaulifiers. That means that the USA and Canada had 44 total qaulifiers !!!! Now take a look at the top ten (based on the last two years) basicly what it will show you is that our numbers are way out of proportion in the top ten !!! Why is that ? no it's not due to color birds but it shows that on a "whole" we do not show well.
No there have been no non-Birmingham Roller kits with the W/C that I know of but I think that in the early years there were two kits that had some Opals in the team. Is this right or wrong Steve ? If so Steve how many ?
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 24, 2005 4:04 PM
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Mongrel lofts
49 posts
Jan 24, 2005
4:18 PM
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Hey Scott,
t What a great point you make here.. If the USA Roller breeders would quit crossing breeds for funny feathers and breed for only the best rollers in the highest percentages possible, what a force we could be.. If so many of you roller breeders and flyers would quit crossing the breed and consentrate on great roll, WOW!! South Africa is new to the sport compared to most of us,, look how many flyers they have in the top ten the last few years.. Maybe what we need to do, is send Slobberknocker over there to Mongrel them rollers up a bit.. Bring their Percantages down!! LOL
Really, I wonder if there are any south african roller flyers on this list? I would like to ask them, if they cross their Birmingham rollers on Ice pigeons, to improve their rollers?? Hmmmmmmmmmm, What do you think David,, do you think they are winning and putting so many in the top 10 in the world, becuase they are crossing breeds for pretty feathers?? Mongrel Lofts
Dave yes all being flown in the W/C are Birmingham Rollers with the exception of some in this country I would venture to say. Heres an eye opener of number of qaulifiers (just an example here) S Africa 11 , UK 3, Holland Denmark 1 , Australia 2 , now there was something like 60 or so total qaulifiers. That means that the USA and Canada had 44 total qaulifiers !!!! Now take a look at the top ten (based on the last two years) basicly what it will show you is that our numbers are way out of proportion in the top ten !!! Why is that ? no it's not due to color birds but it shows that on a "whole" we do not show well.
Last Edited by Mongrel lofts on Jan 24, 2005 4:45 PM
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Steve S.
47 posts
Jan 24, 2005
4:41 PM
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Hi Scott,
We got to be carefull and not be considered know it alls LOL.
I can tell you the line or strain or make up of the W/C birds that did win the W/C
I don't know how many opals or such were flown in the prelims or finals.
We could go to the judges and get the info on that.
I do know of 2 in california that flew opals in the latter years as you know.
I can tell you that of the 14 winners so far of the W/C that there were no opals or such in their kits.
The first I heard of any other color off the norm was the Indigo back in the early 90's.
Steve
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Bluesman
103 posts
Jan 24, 2005
5:04 PM
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O.K.Mongrel Lofts(wish you would change your lofts name LOL) you asked what I thought.Where is everyone that are hollering about color birds and the birds not being pure.Why are they not placing in the top 10? If you are saying they are whipping up on the U.S.(honestly I never looked to see who done what)what is going wrong? Are you saying the U.S. is competing with a bunch of crossed up mongrels and can,t compete with the other countries.
As to why there is not more color birds in competition.My opinion is they don,t want hasseled about having Crossbred Mongrels.But you will see more in the next few years.Right now the gene pool of good color rollers is not as large as the hard colors but it is showing itself.All it takes is someone who will give them a chance.I am talking about colors that roll not the ones that are just bred for color.I think you fellows take me wrong when I talk color.I could have the prettist Opal Laced bird ever made in my loft.If it didn,t have the gene to produce good young I would jerk its head as quick as a Blue Check.LoL.David
Ken that was a low blow about Slobberknockers.That was uncalled for.You have no right to knock someone else down to make yourself look big.I have known Bob for years and he is one of the most honest,dedicated roller man I know.He has done a lot to help someone get started in the roller hobby.He also has some of the best Blood in the Birmingham Roller world.Upset;You bet I am.David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Jan 24, 2005 5:15 PM
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Mongrel lofts
50 posts
Jan 24, 2005
5:48 PM
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Hi Dave,
Sorry if I upset you.. Its not my intention to upset anyone.. I was just pointing out the fact that the country's that focus on roll and not stuff like Pencil, and toy stencil instead of roll, are way far ahead in the percentage of flyers, flying world class rollers.. I seen on slobberknockers web page, a very rare pencil cock in the roller breed.. Yea, very rare!! Send that thing to south africa,, that will fix em!!! LMAO
Mongrel Lofts
Ken that was a low blow about Slobberknockers.That was uncalled for.You have no right to knock someone else down to make yourself look big.I have known Bob for years and he is one of the most honest,dedicated roller man I know.He has done a lot to help someone get started in the roller hobby.He also has some of the best Blood in the Birmingham Roller world.Upset;You bet I am.David
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Bluesman
105 posts
Jan 24, 2005
6:14 PM
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Ken that pencil came thru James Turner.I would bet it will roll with any roller out there.Slobberknockers has always been toward the roll.Thats what upset me.You try and trash someone about a pencil roller and know nothing about how good it rolls.Maybe it should be sent to Africa.My guess is it would just improve what they already have.Wonder why this country is like it is.
I can see now why so many here on the East Coast don,t compete.
Where would I be if I was to compete with a kit of Opals,Indigos and Penciled.I would be trashed somewhere along the line.Just about the time I sway to maybe starting to compete I see what I have to compete against.I enjoy these forums but I don,t go for trashing someone or their birds.Said what I had to say.David
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Cliff
22 posts
Jan 24, 2005
6:30 PM
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Right on, David. Oh, by the way, Steve, it's too late. ("We got to be careful and not beconsidered know it alls.") Remember, Bluesman, when your opposition is feeling the weakest, they must resort to sweeping generalizations, self-rightousness, name-calling and belittling of others in an attempt to make there, otherwise invalid, points. Most who are reading it see it for what it is. Bob is not defined by Mongrel's insults, only Mongrel is. In fact, neither are those of us with color modifiers in our lofts dfined by the trashing doled out by the "purists". We will continue to define ourselves, by what we say, how we say it, and in the competitions. By the way, after those last two posts,you're my hero, Bluesman! Cliff
Last Edited by Cliff on Jan 24, 2005 6:38 PM
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Mother lode lofts
399 posts
Jan 24, 2005
6:43 PM
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I gotta agree with Ken. For the good of the country we need to send South Africa some Toy Stencels.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 24, 2005 8:02 PM
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Cliff
23 posts
Jan 24, 2005
6:46 PM
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See what I mean, Dave? They are not interested in the facts about the bird, just their point of view and trash talking anyone who disagrees. I'm gettin' like you...not sure I care to play in their game, but it's the only way to prove the point. Cliff
Last Edited by Cliff on Jan 24, 2005 6:49 PM
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Steve S.
51 posts
Jan 24, 2005
7:04 PM
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Cliff,
Sounds to me you are at the point of twizzling and plate rolling here, grabbing at straws.
Please do make your point be known.
Prove your point as you say.
In the next 5 years I hope I'm alive to see it, I want you to fly a kit and win with your birds either the Fall Fly or the World Cup , the 11 bird or 20 and you have made me a believer.
I will repent and turn to your way of thinking and breeding.
Steve
Last Edited by Steve S. on Jan 24, 2005 7:05 PM
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Cliff
25 posts
Jan 24, 2005
7:41 PM
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Steve, Touche'. I'm going to give it my best. I've got a few off topic things to deal with, but they shouldn't hinder me, too bad. In a few years, I guess one of us will be eatin' some crow!! YITS Cliff
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Mount Airy Lofts
30 posts
Jan 25, 2005
12:12 AM
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Hi Cliff and David,
I'm not sure where you guys are going with this RARE color stuff not being able to compete in todays time. There are many, and I say many guys who flys in the competition meets around the USA (yes I said USA) with RARE colored birds amongst their team. Many fall short of beating the real thing but that is besides the point. This has alot to do with breeding for color then for flying out your stock... but anywho, bare in mind that many of these guys also just have these birds as SIDE PROJECTS.
Have you seen a whole kit of opals or laced or to that nature in today's competition meets? Personally I haven't but just a few here and there mixed in... I think it could be done with the RARE color birds of today but it's hard enough trying to breed off the real deal to get a competitive team of 20 birds already. The point is, that RARE color rollers can roll. Why else would they be called Rollers? Roll being the point. Hardly will you see a family of RARE color birds score higher then a 1.2 in quality. There is a fellow here who flys alot of pretty colored birds, almonds, yellows, reduced, dun (the real dun), opal, deroys, etc. and wins most of the local meets. His family wasn't built on these colors but as time went on, he got bored and started bring in a color here and there until the present day. Funny how he's still kicking everyone's butt in the competition meets. Some times even taking the seat in the National meets. This has been the norm for some times now. Why do you think he can do this? Well, it's not that he doesn't have color birds nor is it because they can't roll correct. Of course RARE color birds can roll. You just have to work extra hard on adding the color to the roll and know what you are doing. You have to love what you are doing to really put in the time to bring the color in and keep the roll. This gentleman I know with these color birds have been flying competition meets before I was born and is a person I would even dare to call a hard core competitor. Altho he chose having pretty color birds instead of keeping what he started with, he has been able to make it work. No one said RARE color birds can't roll... now a days with the breeding behind some of these RARE color birds done by yester-years top fliers (like James Turner, Roger Baker, etc.), they are actually worth viewing during flight. I believe if he hadn't brought in these colored birds into his family, he would be the guy to beat on all the National meets. He flys the best almond birds I know of. One thing he and I talked about in depth last year was the question of his birds being Birmingham Rollers or not... he replied they are just Rollers! Altho he has never cross bred any of his birds, he realizes the color birds he introduced in come from unknown origins. A TOP CLASS flier and rollerman this fellow is.
All I can say to the new guys is get out there and compare the best RARE color Roller against the best Birmingham Roller... my money is on the Birmingham Roller. Your knowledge of best is only as good as what you have seen. To some, this best can simply be a sloppy styled 'X' roller of 50 feet with mediocre to poor velocity that doesn't kit at all and everything they breed will be compared to this. It isn't long before this fancier has alot of Champions. (Grins)
For the people who has seen the ultimate blur, nothing else will do. Everything they strive for will be compared this this champion. That's the difference between roll and smoking... and I'm not talking about weed here guys. (grin)
Please compete with your RARE color birds. There is always a need for alot more fliers. That's a goal every Roller Club aims for... MORE FLIERS!!
Thor
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Bluesman
109 posts
Jan 25, 2005
4:36 AM
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Thor.Good Post.There is several threads going here at one time and I think most spawned off of my original post of when was a roller not called a Birmingham.So if I get confused in which thread I am answering please overlook me.LOL.
From my understanding all the rollers were at one time just that.Then the folks around Birmingham started to cultivate the bird that rolled the best and the rest of the story is pretty much documented.
Some are hollering Crossbreed as soon as something different pops up.
Everyone of us who raise rollers will eventally change our rollers that we started with.We will select from the air what we like to see.Everyone agree?By doing so we have created a family of rollers to suit what we like to see.We are still within the family that we started with.Good.Then in our family something different pops up.We like it.We cultivate it.It rolls good.
Now along comes David after being away from Rollers for 20 years(like a lot you are seeing now)has the time to get back into rollers and devote his time to them that they deserve.He knows what a roller is suppose to do.He tries to buy some good stock to start with.First thing he finds no one around raises rollers.Time was you couldn't visit all the lofts in a day that had rollers.His buddys had to do the same thing and that was to get their family raised.
What do you do.
Then he is introduced to the computer.After a crash course in how to turn it on and a few basics he types in the search engine "Birmingham Roller" and Whammo.First thing that pops up is NBRC.Hey he remembers this club.Search some more.There is a whole new world out there and rollers are everywhere.He finds a classified ad on the NBRC site and contacts the fellow.Must get rid of the rollers.They are great rollers.Shipping cost are higher than what most of the rollers cost he had before.Loft is built and here comes the rollers.He starts writing down band numbers.What does he find.14 of the 17 rollers are 10 years old.First lesson learned.He never asked enough questions.O.K he is disappointed but tries to salvage something from what he has.At least he is back into rollers.Turns out they were good rollers and he is happy but wants something better.He is smarter this time.He has studied everything he can find on rollers and has seen how so many things have changed since back in the day.He finds some pedigreed Pensom Rollers.He knows going in that the birds are not going to do anything but flip untill around 9 month.But he trusts the seller and believes that when they start they will be worth waiting for.At his age he can,t afford to wait a year to see if this is true or not.True to the seller's word almost to the day they come out of no where and some turn it on.David is a very happy man.
In the meantime along comes a chance to get some rollers that start at 3 and 4 month and happen to be from a man(James Turner) that spent his whole life to in developing this family.There is Indigos,Andalusians,Yellows,Qualmonds,Opals etc.along with the regular colors and are rolling up a storm.David can not believe what he is seeing.Birds that start early,roll often and pleasing to look at.He knows he has found what he likes.
Then one day he finds out there is only 3 colors.Hold on.He is looking at 6 or 8 different colors and someone is saying there is only 3.He then finds out there is only 4 patterns.The rest are just factors & modifiers.He then studies genetics and finds another whole world to explore in.
Then one day while researching rollers he runs into Roller Pigeon.com.The birds he likes so well are being called Crossbred Mongrels.They are calling them Rare Colors etc.So he starts asking questions and the rest is on these threads that are on this site.Are a lot of what is being called Rare Colors,Crossbred Mongrels etc really that or are they something that was a modifier or factor that was already in the Birmingham Roller Breed.Some say a Birmingham roller is just what Pensom imported to this country.It is documented proof that the Birmingham Roller Breed was long before this time.
Thor;The next time you see your buddy that flies color rollers Shake his hand for me.He is a brave man to do so.Winning is not everything to him.More will be following him.The whole point I am trying to get across is that the Roller can and will be cultivated to move forward(not stand still)regardless of color and that they all trace back to that ro gene that was cultivated in England.
If you think this is long winded stick around I am just getting wound up.LOL David
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Mother lode lofts
405 posts
Jan 25, 2005
6:34 AM
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Good post Dave, now you need to get out there and learn how they compare in the real world. I'm not sure if that region flys the 11 bird or not. Some only fly the 20 due to just enough fliers. And last year one region only flew the 11 bird. Generally we refere to the 11 bird as the little girl fly. The winner is our girl scout leader. The big Boy fly is the 20 bird.
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Bluesman
111 posts
Jan 25, 2005
8:12 AM
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Scott.I was looking at some of the fly results.I think Eric Fischer(hope its spelled right) is the regional director for Pa.Md.etc.However I did not see anyone from his region listed anywhere.
You say get out there and see what is going on and compare.I think I told you before that I can,t travel.I have not been in a store except the little country store about 4 miles from me in the past 2 years.This is also the same building that is the P.O. Population 13.Starting to get crowded.LOL
My wife,telephone and computer is my link to the outside world.
I have no desire to compete with anything or anyone anymore.But if I could be convinced to compete it would be in the 11 bird kit.
Do you really think that the regional would come all that distance to here if I was the only one competing in his region?And if he would what would it cost me to enter a kit.David
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Phantom1
29 posts
Jan 25, 2005
8:22 AM
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Hey Dave - you're right the "colored" rollers are on the rise. No worries, in a few years from now, someone will fly a kit of "colored, crossbred mongrels" and whoop the feathers of a bunch of inbred blue-checks...and you know what you'll get. No, no, no - not any trash talk. You'll just be told that their birds had an off day.
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Bluesman
113 posts
Jan 25, 2005
8:32 AM
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Eric.You are right and this is what I have been saying all along.Maybe the Blue Checks did have a bad day.It didn,t prove the Colored birds were better than the Blue Checks but on this day they were.Thats why I say that competition is not where you are always going to find the best rollers.A newcomer is not able to compete with Scott.Scott knows how to win.Weither he flys Blue Checks or Colored birds.David
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Phantom1
31 posts
Jan 25, 2005
8:35 AM
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David, right on. Nevermind the fact that probably any colored bird in my loft could out-roll any of the blue-check I personally own. Man...why do I even have them around?
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J_Star
158 posts
Jan 25, 2005
8:52 AM
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It doesn't mean that evrybody elses Blue-ckeck is crap. Compare your fancy colored birds with other fanciers who claim to have the best hard color rollers. This way you would be comparing apples to apples. Please, why wait a few years from somebody to fly a kit of 20 birds to show what they are made of, you just said your color rollers are better than the blue check, wouldn't you fly them in comp this year and have others follow your lead. Why wait!!
the debate is going on now not in a few years in the future. Good post...Thanks
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jan 25, 2005 8:58 AM
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Phantom1
32 posts
Jan 25, 2005
9:03 AM
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Jay, I said MY "colored" birds are better than MY blue-checks. Read before you leap my man! As for me entering competition, honestly, I don't think I could ever play that game. Based on the sentiments I've so learned to embrace about us color folks, I don't think we'd all walk away from that one.
Jay, I've said once and I'll say it time and time again. If a kit of so called "colored" birds were ever flown and, well first I guess they'd have to be accepted in your prestigeous WC Competitions, and actually won. The color breeders would rejoice, and the fliers with non-colored birds, would again only have their words to bring them comfort and solice "My birds just had a bad day"....
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Mother lode lofts
406 posts
Jan 25, 2005
9:33 AM
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Dave you are thinking with some "depth" now. No the overall best kits do not allways win due to so many things can go wrong leading up to fly day ar fly day it's self. What it boils down to is the best kit of the "fly" and you are only as good as your last fly. Last year I went into the W/C finals with a kit that just would'nt get it together and I knew that it was not a very good team as I was forced to move so many birds around, in other words I was scraping for decent birds after some losses. Bottom line is it showed.
You will see some of the worlds best hit the bottom of the sheet or middle of the pack at times which is what makes things very interesting. But you won't see poor birds making it to the top of the major flys. At least this is what I see. Normally your best flyers will show some consistacy over all though.
Eric if your Blue Checks aren't cutting the mustard then cull them !! What would make you think that any of us think that just because they are blue checks that they are automaticly good birds ? Good birds are hard to deny no matter what the color is, they are there in your face, either they are cutting it or they aren't.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 25, 2005 9:36 AM
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Phantom1
33 posts
Jan 25, 2005
9:41 AM
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Scott, you're right. But, I've gotta work with what I've got, and feed what I like to look at.
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Mongrel lofts
51 posts
Jan 25, 2005
12:17 PM
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(like James Turner, Roger Baker, etc.), they are actually worth viewing during flight. I believe if he hadn't brought in these colored birds into his family, he would be the guy to beat on all the National meets. He flys the best almond birds I know of. One thing he and I talked about in depth last year was the question of his birds being Birmingham Rollers or not... he replied they are just Rollers! Altho he has never cross bred any of his birds, he realizes the color birds he introduced in come from unknown origins. A TOP CLASS flier and rollerman this fellow is.
Thor,
Are you saying James Turner never cross bred any of his birds? Or are you saying your friend never cross bred his birds, but may have brought some cross breds into his line, without knowing it? Just wondering.. Mongrel Lofts
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Mount Airy Lofts
31 posts
Jan 25, 2005
1:12 PM
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Mongrel Lofts,
I was referring to the statment the fellow I know and respect here. I have no clue to what other guys like James Turner did with their birds. The only insight I have to what Mr. Turner did with the color line is the video I have 'Simple Genetics'. Man, are you kidding me about the color birds on that video... you can see clearly they were cross bred. Altho I have to give Mr. Turner some credit, he made a statement that I thought was very interesting: 'put the color into the roll' and not 'put the roll into the color'. Makes sense how someone could make color birds roll after hearing him say this. I see why there are so many color birds rolling today because of this. In the video, Mr. Turner also made a interesting statement I thought I should mention. He stated in the video that people say color birds can't roll. It's not too far from the truth at that era of the development of these RARE color birds. I feel this is because it was at the early stages of cross breeding Birmingham Roller with other breeds.
"Or are you saying your friend never cross bred his birds, but may have brought some cross breds into his line, without knowing it?"
This was what I meant by my statement. I believe had a feeling the single bird here and there he was introducing has a high chance of being a mongrel but it didn't matter because he was beyond that point. He wanted to put in color to this stock and work from there. The story he told me about the origin of his Almond was that he saw a add in the APJ for some Almonds. He went on and purchase a single bird from this add. I saw the photo of this bird and boy was it off typed. He mated it in to one of his best bird (bred down from the Bob Evan's Line) and after getting the desired almond factor, he elimated the Original Almond. He also stated that this Almond he purchase was never flown out so most likely it wasn't even able to perform a single flip. I guess it wouldn't have matter because mating for performance was not the factor at this stage. Anywho, he never cross bred a single bird. They were like that when he introduced it in already.
Hope that helps... hey, watch out because he's one of the World Cup Judges this year... You can't be a World Cup Judge if you don't know what you are doing!
Thor
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Mount Airy Lofts
32 posts
Jan 25, 2005
1:21 PM
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Hi Eric,
You made a statement about seeing Color Rollers winning the Flys in the future. I don't see this happening myself. See, my reason I say this, is because the Birmingham Roller is 100 plus years ahead of the game from the RARE color birds being cultivated today.
Remember, going back to the 'Simple Genetics' video. It will take atleast 7 years to get the color birds to roll to the point where he liked it to be. The guy I know also took atleast 5 years to get the roll to where he liked. Altho this is not saying they are what he wants... it's just saying that they are ok enough for them as colored birds.
How long do you think one has to put in to get his family of Color birds to roll correctly if he started from stratch? That's why you don't hear too much about seeing Color birds being flown in the competition... let's say 10 years ago.
Just something to think about,
Thor
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Cliff
27 posts
Jan 25, 2005
1:48 PM
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Phantom and Bluesman, you see the pedigree guys have already started it. They are already making excuses for the fact that a kit of indigo and andalusians won the NBRC 11 bird competition two years ago and color birds placed in the top ten this year. But that's still not good enough. That's the "girly competition" they called it. They can't live with the facts, so like we all keep saying, all they can do is trash talk. And JStar, yes this is today, and as has been posted, color birds have been winning for years, will continue to win, and you guys will keep making excuses why they are still not good enough in your eyes. So this debate has gone nowhere in the past and it goes nowhere today. Some people have minds that are slammed shut and no amount of new information is going to open them. Cliff
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Slobberknocker
18 posts
Jan 25, 2005
2:08 PM
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Hi Cliff,
I couldn't agree with you more. I think that is also why so many "color breeders" have been methodically driven out of competing all together. Someday, though, it will happen. Thank you for the support Cliff.
Bob
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Bluesman
118 posts
Jan 25, 2005
2:22 PM
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Thor.What you are not knowing is that the color rollers have been refined over the past 10 years into rolling machines.Not just good enough to be called a roller but to equal any roller out there.Why do you think you are seeing so many color rollers being flown in the past few years.You said you know of quite a few.I hope I am still around for another 5 years or so to be able to get back on here and say I told you so.LOL David
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Cliff
28 posts
Jan 25, 2005
2:44 PM
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Bob, I know for a fact, based on personal conversation with color breeders, after viewing awesome kits and asking why they no longer compete, that they grew tired of the BS and being treated like second-class citizens by some in the hobby. they got tired of being asked to sit in the back of the bus simply because of color. But things are changing. The pedigree guys on this post are in more of a minority all the time. They are becoming extinct as the sport/hobby grows past them. More and more of the experienced breeders and flyers have opened their minds to the fact that possesion of color genes is irrelevant, just as is the possession of a pedigree. Only performance matters. I, personally, hear the experienced judges from California and Pennsylvania and Arkansas telling the guys that compete with color birds that they have never seen anything any better anywhere. That's good enough for me! It will take me a couple years to put a kit together, but I'll be carrying that torch, too, just like Bullfrog and many others. Cliff
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Slobberknocker
19 posts
Jan 25, 2005
2:57 PM
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Cliff, Run with it and the best of luck to you. Your thoguths and views are appreciated on here by me and many others. When either you or Bullfrog win a big competition, Bluesman, Phantom, and I will send you a nice congratulations gift.
Oh, and don't ever take the back seat of the bus for color. You know how that all turned out.
Bob
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Mother lode lofts
410 posts
Jan 25, 2005
6:17 PM
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MONGRALS ARE TAKING OVER THE WORLD !!!! OH NO CLIFF SAY IT AINT TRUE LOL LOL ,
Cliff you are kinda speaking outa both side of your mouth here, you say because we are taking over because we only breed for roll and then you mention color gene, which is it ?? So because you add the color genes are you saying this make them better ? What the HELL do you think made them color birds ROLL when it was added !!!!! C'mon Cliff I know that you are smarter than that. Actually I think that they are regressing Cliff. And I believe it is due to so many getting serious about the big flys, there just isn't any room to screw around. A buddy of mine calls the color breeding a fad like the duel purpose Roller, time will tell though.
I think that we all agree on pedigree breeders though, generally you will find that most of them arent even fliers. Who here is pedigree breeding here ?
Lets get something Ironed out here Cliff , We have "allways" called it the little girl fly, And we were doing so long before Jay won it. In fact this years winner is here and I'm "still" calling it the little girls fly !!!
And basicly I threw it out there because he is on these threads, it is called a "ribb" . And the fact is we are 20 bird fliers, that is the top dog Cliff, 11 bird is under it, allways has been and allways will be, and when you see the finals winners it is allways the 20 bird flier at the top of the list. Why ? because that is where the stiffist competition is. The 11 bird is a good win, but the 20 bird is the ultimate.
As for Jay, I have respect for him. He is a no bullshit kind of guy when it comes to what he is doing.
Cliff I wish you well competing but I'm afraid with what "looks" to be your current attitude you will do nothing but shoot yourself in the foot. Why ? because you are going to limit yourself to trying to proove something with "strictly" the so called rare color birds and the competition is too stiff to ball and chain yourself like that. At least that is the way it looks from this end.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 25, 2005 7:01 PM
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AD3
49 posts
Jan 25, 2005
8:50 PM
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Hello fellow fanciers,
David a.k.a. Bluesman, I am not sure if you have mentioned this or not. I'd like to know what colors/factors/patterns you consider "colored birds" when you mention them? What are the exact colorations or patterns that you are refering to please ? Thanks & fly them hard fellas. Cheers.
----------
Birmingham Rollers by AD3 Website
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Mount Airy Lofts
33 posts
Jan 25, 2005
10:27 PM
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Hi Cliff,
I'm not knocking on the color breeders but the statement you made had to be the most off based thing I have ever heard. Just think about it, why is it that color breeders sell birds that can't even do a flip or is a roll down for $50 average a bird... all this for the so call RARE factor which isn't so RARE if you really think about it. It is found regularly in other breeds. It is also funny to me that they seem to always have birds for sale year round.
Think about it, most guys who flys outstanding birds in today's competition will usually give their best kit birds away to help guys out-free of charge. Heck, most guys who has quality birds can barely afford to give away their birds, yet alone sell them. Do you know why? It's because no amount of money can buy these birds! When you assess a dollar amount to your best birds, there is no money on earth that could replace it. So what usually happens is that it is given out in the good faith that the person will come back and beat you in the competitions... when he raises enough birds. If you really think about it, this has been the normal for this breed.
I don't get it...
Thor
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Jan 25, 2005 10:29 PM
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Mount Airy Lofts
34 posts
Jan 25, 2005
10:52 PM
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Hi David,
I believe it was you who has stock birds from James Turner..
You stated: "In the meantime along comes a chance to get some rollers that start at 3 and 4 month and happen to be from a man(James Turner) that spent his whole life to in developing this family.There is Indigos,Andalusians,Yellows,Qualmonds,Opals etc.along with the regular colors and are rolling up a storm.David can not believe what he is seeing.Birds that start early,roll often and pleasing to look at.He knows he has found what he likes."
Tell me something, did James Turner have these RARE color in his Pensom Stock from the beginning or did he had to bring these factors in from unknown sources? I don't know anything about James Turner but I suspect he is in the NBRC Hall of Frame because one time or another he had Birmingham Rollers. If I recall, he STARTED with Pensom stock. To be a Hall of Framer, you had to contribute alot of time into this hobby. Helping guys out when ever you can, writing articles, that sort of thing. Winning competitions doesn't put you in the Hall of Frame. You just have to be a big asset to the hobby and be voted in.
If you think that Pensom had Andulusions, Opals, Stencils, Lace, that RARE stuff in his stock... you must have been wrongly informed.
Why do you think Pensom only took in birds from guys he trusted? It was due to cross breeding done by American fanciers then and still is done by now. There is nothing wrong with cross breeding if you want to start a whole new different breed... go ahead. But to cross breed just for a special factor and say that it is doing the breed a justice by adding in new color just doesn't make sense to me.
David, get your hands on James Turner's "Simple Genetics" video and you will see where all your color birds came from.
Just something to think about David,
Thor
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Mount Airy Lofts
35 posts
Jan 25, 2005
10:52 PM
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Hi David,
I believe it was you who has stock birds from James Turner..
You stated: "In the meantime along comes a chance to get some rollers that start at 3 and 4 month and happen to be from a man(James Turner) that spent his whole life to in developing this family.There is Indigos,Andalusians,Yellows,Qualmonds,Opals etc.along with the regular colors and are rolling up a storm.David can not believe what he is seeing.Birds that start early,roll often and pleasing to look at.He knows he has found what he likes."
Tell me something, did James Turner have these RARE color in his Pensom Stock from the beginning or did he had to bring these factors in from unknown sources? I don't know anything about James Turner but I suspect he is in the NBRC Hall of Frame because one time or another he had Birmingham Rollers. If I recall, he STARTED with Pensom stock. To be a Hall of Framer, you had to contribute alot of time into this hobby. Helping guys out when ever you can, writing articles, that sort of thing. Winning competitions doesn't put you in the Hall of Frame. You just have to be a big asset to the hobby and be voted in.
If you think that Pensom had Andulusions, Opals, Stencils, Lace, that RARE stuff in his stock... you must have been wrongly informed.
Why do you think Pensom only took in birds from guys he trusted? It was due to cross breeding done by American fanciers then and still is done by now. There is nothing wrong with cross breeding if you want to start a whole new different breed... go ahead. But to cross breed just for a special factor and say that it is doing the breed a justice by adding in new color just doesn't make sense to me.
David, get your hands on James Turner's "Simple Genetics" video and you will see where all your color birds came from.
Just something to think about David,
Thor
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Bluesman
120 posts
Jan 26, 2005
5:45 AM
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Good Morning everyone.Getting started late this morning.To much meds.LOL.
AD3. I am talking;Andalusian,Indigo,Almond,Qualmond,Faded,Barless,Dilutes in whatever form,Reduced in its many forms,Opals in its many forms,Ribbontails,Bronze.I didn,t include Pencil because I don,t have any.I do have it in my plans to work on the barless and penciled this year.If what I raise roll good they will be included also.To make it simple if it rolls to the standard of what a Birmingham Roller is supose to do no matter what color,factor or modifier is involved.
Thor.I have both his tapes.Everyone keeps going back to what Pensom had.Pensom was just one man and only developed his family to suit his wants.My point and stand is that there was Birmingam Rollers long before Pensom.The Whittingham's imported Birminghams to the U.S. long before Pensom did.Read the history about the Whittinghams;According to Pensom they never flew a kit.According to what is documented they owned a pet store.People who raised rollers in Birmingham sold him all their excess birds;good,bad,ugly whatever.He shipped them off to the U.S.They were called Birmingham Rollers.Then the best was picked from what was sent(no matter what color) and cultivated.Scott himself said that the English have different names for color than we do.He also said(and he is a good judge I am told)that all rollers flown in the big comps were Birmingham rollers.Except for a few.And I bet they didn,t roll to meet the qualifications.
We can bat this thing around forever and no one without proof is going to convince me that a lot of color factors and modifiers werent imported in the Birmingham Roller.
Take the Barless debate we had.Documented proof that it was and still is in the Birmingham Roller.Documented proof that every roller in the U.S can trace its heritage back to Birmingham.
My stand is and will be until proven wrong is that any roller that can perform to the standard that was set forth for the Breed Birmingham Roller(before Pensom) is a Birmingham Roller regardless of what color,strain,family or whatever else you want to call it.If it dosent roll then it is just a crossbred color project and should be sold as such.Pet store stock.David
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Slobberknocker
22 posts
Jan 26, 2005
6:49 AM
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Hey Guys,
Not to stir things up, but the color Reduced (what some call Blue Laced, red Laced, Pink Laced, etc.) first showed up in a loft of pure Rollers. All of the Reduced you see in other breeds today was crossed OUT from Rollers into that breed. This is also documented.
Something else to consider is that ALL breeds and colors we have today originated thousands of years sgo from the Blue Check (or Bar) Rock Dove a.k.a. Barn Pigeon. Somewhere in history two Blues produced an Ash Red and two Blues produced an Opal, and so on. Becuase it happened and has been documented to have happened thousands of years ago, who is to say that it absolutely cannot happen today?
If Reduced was first found, tested, and documented in Rollers, where did all of the other colors/factors we have today originate from? How many others were first found in Rollers?
Just something to think about.
Bob
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Cliff
29 posts
Jan 26, 2005
8:19 AM
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Scott, Don't worry. I intend to save all my toes. If I can't get the Turner family of birds to perform up to par, and I see that other competitors are having the same problem, I'll be the first guy to eat crow and admit I was wrong, and start over with a new family. That's paart of the fun of this sport/hobby!
Thor, Sorry, Bud. You're out in left field again. Once again you are making sweeping generalizations that have little basis in fact, so it completely invalidates your point of view. Neither I, nor any other flyer of the birds that I have seen change hands have paid a nickle for any of the breeders that I, or they, have stocked. That's just my personal observation. Either I, or the competitor and breeder, selected them oout of the air BASED ON PERFORMANCE!!!! I'm just tired of you guys knocking them strictly on the basis that they carry an indigo or andalusian or some othr color modifier gene. As I posted before, the experience I have seen in the hobby is that more rip-offs accur in the name of pedigree from feather merchants promising performance, that don't deliver. I guess you and I can agree on one thing....both occur and neither are what we want to see in the hobby. It's buyer beware whether fbased on color or performance. But let's get off this damning of each other's birds because of the unscrupulous acts of a few! Cliff
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Cliff
30 posts
Jan 26, 2005
8:31 AM
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David and Bob, You guys are making my point exactly. The Birmingham Roller is itself the result of an outcross that combined a wide variety of genes from a diverse genetic background, with the potential for a variety of expression in phenotype, from feathered legs, to crests, to barless patterns to various color genes. And yes, in the last 100 years, additional genes for other colors have been added. But there is no basis for calling these birds, today, anything other than Birmingham Rollers because of such diversity in their background, before and after Pensom's influence on the breed. We will not solve this debate through discussion. It will take some DNA testing to prove it one way or the other. We cannot sit here now and truly KNOW exactly what genes were possessed by the birds before Pensom's day in England, nor during his day, nor today with all the outcrossing of families and breeds all along the way. We only guess at it and then hang our hat on that guess for the sake of argument and, unfortunately, for the sake of criticism. Cliff
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