Mother lode lofts
415 posts
Jan 26, 2005
8:32 AM
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Ciff I didn't say that you could'nt do it with the Turner birds. Just stay away from the color "projects",and go with what he has that produces the goods. You've mentioned a couple of names in the past of some guys have some Turner birds who I also know. I am assuming that they have them for a reason because they don't breed for color what so ever. At least from what they have told me.
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Slobberknocker
30 posts
Jan 26, 2005
8:37 AM
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Scott,
Please do not take this that I am trying to stir up anything. I have talked with Mr. Turner several times over the last year and have received birds from him twice so far. From talking to him, ALL of his birds have the same chance of producing the goods. Of course, as you well know, we all raise culls even out of our very best spinners. Turner has a close knit family that are consistent. With that said, there is no telling what you can get for color from his birds. You may get a Blue Check, for example, and raise a Reduced or Silver from it. 99% of his birds are years and years ahead of "project" birds.
Bob
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Bluesman
123 posts
Jan 26, 2005
9:18 AM
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Cliff,Bob. I think that we are being misunderstood on what we are trying to say.I don,t know you(Cliff)personally but I will say that none of the 3 of us are crossing other breeds into the rollers to get color.The 3 of us are for the roll first.We do however work with what colors,factors,modifiers that we have in our birds that someone else perfected into the roller with roll being a must or the project scrapped.I would never sell a Milky to anyone without telling them the whole story about what I had.Do they roll.I have no idea.It may be years before I know.I shouldn,t say years.I don,t have much patience with anything that don,t work.If they don,t roll the only way I would sell them would be to someone who wanted to pursue the Milky Factor.And they would not be called a roller;Performing or Birmingham.
This is not a good day for me to be on here debating so I am going to back away for awhile.Not running away.I will be back.LOL
I am going to ask someone on here to contact the NBRC by email and ask them what was the standard for the Birmingham Roller when Bill Pensom started it(NBRC) and what is the Standard now.What they(NBRC)accept as being a Birmingham Roller.Please post the original question asked and the answer that they reply with.Whatever answer they reply with I will accept.This is a good time to know what NBRC stands for to any Newcomer thinking about joining.I have already joined.If we are going to compete and you have to be a member to compete then we should know what standards need to be met.David
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Slobberknocker
31 posts
Jan 26, 2005
9:48 AM
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David,
I spoke to a high ranking officer in the NBRC just the other day and asked him the exact question you just posed to us. I won't say his name so as not to rock the boat too much. Anyway, he said the NBRC accepts Pensoms description of a Birmingham Roller. I know I am not quoting exactly right, but it's that whole "backward flips with inconceivable rapidity so as to look like a ball".
He also told me that the World Cup is a seperate entity apart from the NBRC and that their scoring and rules are different. When I asked him about what the WC allows in their competitions, he couldn't answer because he did not know the exact rules of THEIR competitions.
As a cliff note here, he also told me that the number of pure un-currupted Birmingham Rollers in the USA is very low and that very few lofts even posses these pure specimens.
Bob
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J_Star
160 posts
Jan 26, 2005
11:59 AM
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My thoughts to that is because the lofts that have the pure blood rollers protects them with all they have while the others sell them, give them away and what have you. Therefore, only few families are kept pure and in the hands of few. I am happy to say I am one of those few. They will be sought after greatly in the future.
Jay
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Phantom1
38 posts
Jan 26, 2005
12:15 PM
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Jay, I'm curious. How do you know with the utmost certainty that yours are pure Birmingham Roller? A piece of paper? Or someones word? Or is because they don't throw off "odd" colors? I'm curious, as this may actually provide some insight to those seeking the Real Deal.
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Phantom1
39 posts
Jan 26, 2005
12:22 PM
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Jay, another question in regards to your post. You wrote, "while the others sell them, give them away or what have you". So you protect your family, rather than sending them to someone to benefit from them or risk the chance of not doing them justice? Am I reading that correctly?
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Bluesman
124 posts
Jan 26, 2005
12:43 PM
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Dropped back in for a short visit.
Bob; Anything we say on here will be taken as trying to throw up a smoke screen just to baffle the newcomer.
I have had 4 emails today from newcomers tryin to figure out what is going on.I was surprised.There is more newcomers on here trying to learn than we realize.That is why I said for someone to email NBRC.Then everyone will see in black & white printed documented proof of what they stand for in a Birmingham Roller.
Here is a good one.Here is what Graham Dexter said about the late Ernie Stratford."Ernie will be remembered with the great rollermen of this country for his contribution and dedication to the hobby.A great competitor,he was always determined to win."
Ernie Stratford said;"Everyones got to experiment with pigeons.You try to improve them every year.The wildest experiment that i've ever done is pairing parlour tumblers to rollers.Eventually I bred a champion."
Graham wrote;"It is little wonder he has the title of "exporter of the century".In the 70s and 80s Ernie sent rollers around the world,his strain of rollers can be found all over the globe.It is great credit to Ernie that one of the best kits George Mason and I saw in the states in 1990 were bred from Ernie's exports."
This is a man who crossed Parlor Tumblers with Birminghams.We all know what all colors there are in the Parlor Tumblers don,t we?
Mongrel Lofts please tear this one apart.David
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Slobberknocker
33 posts
Jan 26, 2005
12:54 PM
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Brace yourself David, the fire and brimstone will certainly follow!!!
Good point, though. I have to wonder just how many people over the years have crossed Parlor Rollers or Tumblers into their Rollers for depth. it is a very do-able project and I have even seen it done by an old-timer here years ago. By the 3rd or 4th generation, you absolutely would not be able to tell there was ever a cross unless you knew it was happening and the birds were rolling deep, fast, tight and had superb control. It was a beautiful thing.
Don't get any ideas, David!! LOL You might corrupt those crossbred mogrels up so much they may turn into champions!! LMAO
Bob
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Jan 26, 2005 12:55 PM
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J_Star
161 posts
Jan 26, 2005
1:02 PM
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Phantom1, no not pedigree papers or any thing that could be missleading. I have Horner family from Horner himself. He does not dabble with colors or any thing in that nature. People with really pure family will give some of their birds here and there to serious new comers who they think will really take care of them and reluctant to give to just anybody in the name of furthering the sport. That is all what I ment. No offence to anybody intended in my post. If anybody here have an ill information about the horner family of birds that comes directly from horner himself, I am very happy to hear it. Thanks.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jan 26, 2005 1:04 PM
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Slobberknocker
34 posts
Jan 26, 2005
1:11 PM
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Jay,
Just to clarify one thing here, un-corrupted has nothing to do with color. A Blue Check could have been crossed in with the same ill efects as crossing a colored bird in. As long as the breeder knows what he is doing, it can be made to work in either case.
Do you know where Horner got his birds from and can you say, with 100% certainty, that he has NEVER added another bird to his family in the years he has had the birds. I assume you know this because you grew up with him and have seen every bird that has entered his loft and left his loft. I don't know him and he may have great birds, just asking the question.
For example, James Turner has great birds, but they are not pure Pensom's anymore. He has developed his own family that has proven itself in NBRC flys.
Bob
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Phantom1
41 posts
Jan 26, 2005
1:12 PM
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Jay, I'm not one for knowing all the names. I don't care for the name game. Who is Horner? Where did he get his birds from? And do we know for certain that everything he ever got was PURE B.R.? I think you can follow my train of thought here. In my opinion, a TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER does NOT exit in the capacity that everyone believes it to be. Rather, there are a lot of experienced breeders constantly trying to develop, maintain, or possibly even bring back, the performance level of the ever so sought after Birmingham Roller. Just my thoughts on the whole farce. I think we should all stop kidding ourselves. There's absolutely no way possible that anyone can vouch for years of breeding from multiple lofts, that something didn't go astray.
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JUrbon
49 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:17 PM
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Phantom,Bob,Jay, I am just going to touch on this from my perspective. I cannot prove to you nor do I feel the need to when it comes to the purity of my family of birds. I will tell you that since I have had this family they are pure to what I recieved and that is all that I am concerned with. We are beating a dead horse with this subject because nobody has to prove anything. I for one do not tell anybody that I raise Birmingham Rollers per say. I mearly say I raise Rollers and I dont say this for fear of having to hide anything. In fact I have never really given it any thought until now. I breed and strive for the best birds that I can breed and prior to when I got them I dont care what was used to produce them. All I can say is that if by chance there was another breed used to produce them then I take my hat off to whom ever did this because he/she created a wonderful rolling pigeon. Joe Urbon
Last Edited by JUrbon on Jan 26, 2005 7:18 PM
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Phantom1
48 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:29 PM
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Joe, Thank you for your input. You've graciously help validate our point. My birds are PURE to my family too! I do not identify them as Birmingham Rollers either. But nobody could contest that they aren't! Rather, they are rollers and I am committed to furthering them in development. You hit the nail on the head my good man. All in all, we're all doing the same thing.
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Bluesman
136 posts
Jan 27, 2005
2:27 AM
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Thanks Joe.I have never seen you trash any ones birds regardless of color.I have used the word Birmingham more on these threads than I have my whole life.When Mike asked the question are Performing Rollers and Birminghan Rollers the same thing(something like that)the whole thing started again.And it was a good question.Are they the same thing?Is their a difference in the True Birmingham Roller and the Performing Roller?Take all this nonsense about competition,color,Competitor against the Backyard fancier and throw it out the window.Are there 2 seperate rollers?
Back in my day we flew whatever we had all together.Tumblers,Rollers(which we called Birm's)and Fireballs.When we talked about them it was either the Birm's,the Tumblers or the Fireballs.
When I wanted to get back into the hobby the first thing I typed in the computer was "Birmingham Roller".This is what I remembered.I didn,t want Tumblers etc.I wanted Rollers.There is a lot of my generation coming back into the Hobby.Since I have started back several of my old buddys have restarted.Kind of makes us feel young again.LOL.There is a lot of "remember when" going on.
I have also got back into Parlor Rollers recently and I find myself when I am talking to someone on the phone calling my birds "the Birm's" or the Parlors.Both roll but are not the same breed.One flys the other stays on the ground and has a complete different History.
If the Performing roller and the Birmingham are 2 seperate rollers I will stop calling my birds Birm's or Birminghams and you will never see me in any Club or Website talking about Birmingham Rollers.Why can't everyone lay all this trash talk aside and make a choice.Birminghams or not.David
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J_Star
165 posts
Jan 27, 2005
9:04 AM
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Phantom1, In regard to Horner's bird, There is a post couple of pages ago labeled "Danny Horner's Birds" read it and will give some understanding of that family of birds. Horners foundation birds had the RJ bands when started. If Richard Jaconette was mixing and crossing, then his familly would be. I discussed this issue with Horner and he is true to the performance of the breed only. I will be happy to provide you other information if you desire. Thanks.
Jay
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Phantom1
59 posts
Jan 27, 2005
9:24 AM
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Jay, where did RJ get his birds from?
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
377 posts
Jan 27, 2005
1:00 PM
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Eric there was a recent post on one of our lists where that very topic was discussed and the veterans came out and revealed the answer to that question. Bruce Cooper, Joe Houghton, Leroy Smith, Peter Lynn are a few of the names. There stuff was, at the time, basically families made off of birds bought right from Pensom.
Brian
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Phantom1
63 posts
Jan 27, 2005
1:08 PM
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Thanks for your input Brian. The point that I'm trying to make is just that. There's really no certainty that any of these individuals, as great as they are, didn't have something "unpure" or "Non-Birmingham" come into their lofts. If it didn't happen...kudos! But there is that presence of uncertainty. But again, if it rolls like a BR, then it can be called such.
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Mother lode lofts
437 posts
Jan 27, 2005
1:34 PM
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Eric I breed 80 - 90 birds a year and tell you what pairs they came out of just by looking at them 99 0/0 the time let alone something sneaking in the back door at night. I don't think that you understand how serious people take these birds and these families. It aint just a bunch of pigeon keepers.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
378 posts
Jan 27, 2005
1:43 PM
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Eric, I am kind of like Joe U. I don't call my rollers Birmingham Rollers. I just call them Rollers. Birmingham, Ham and Cheese, Hamburmger Roller, who really cares? Well besides traditionalists. Anyone with a smidgeon of common sense and rationality can see that if you have rollers that roll properly and perform to the standards that are set by the masses, they are rollers. Whether or not you can throw in the name Birmingham or not is up to the owner. Anyone else is just sharing their opinion on the matter, usually an amplification of where the core of their enthusiam lies. It's often the same with sports, you root for your team and everyone else's team sucks. Emotions often cloud reality as well as fuel passion. Purists are purists because they prefer to be purists. Cross breeders are cross breeders because they choose to be cross breeders. But roller flyers are roller flyers because they choose to see rollers fly and perform. When a kit is in the air, you have no idea what that pedigree is on them, you only see performance..or you don't. There are as many culls pure BR as there are culls of any other performing rollers that might share the same name.
What this topic always revolves around are two things which have been typed into this forum 100 or more times since Tony created it and this subject hashed, rehashed and hashed some more. If those who choose to take part in the debate will raise their hands and say "Yes, I realize that at some point some other breeds were used to reproduce different colors" that will signify you are conscious of reality because believe it or not, that is the reality. If those who stand fast on what is really a vague concept of what "can" be considered a Birmingham Roller would acknowledge that performance should always override what can be found on a pedigree, more folks would find themselves getting along instead of at odds with one another over an opinion. Bottom line, if you have birds that you determine are true to the lineage of rollers that WHP supplied, you no doubt call your birds Birmingham Rollers. If you have birds that you cannot prove come from these same paper trails, then you can call your birds Birmingham Rollers. Hell i can call my bird Brian Rollers. Why, because I can and they are mine and I don't live in Birmingham. It is just a name of a place where a specific performance nuance was cultivated. I could probably with years worth of work, trace my rollers back to those cultivated by WHP himself, but what would that prove? Not much as far as I am concerned. What their pedigree says has little to nothing to do with what they do in the air, over my house, and on comp day. Breed for the roll and everything else will take care of itself. Friends in a hobby are a valuable commodity. Enemies are a dime a dozen. Never forget that to most dedicated roller flyers, its the spin that warms the heart and makes us grin with envy, not the name we like to call our birds.
Brian.
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Bluesman
145 posts
Jan 27, 2005
2:03 PM
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Brian.Well said and I agree 100%.I would never before call mine anything but Performing Rollers untill this started again.Again for the same reasons you said.The only thing that set me off was the answer to Mike's first post resulting from not finding any Birmingham Rollers at the Big show in Lancaster.When told they were the same a red flag went off in his brain.Which sould happen in most people.So he started asking questions.Look where his question left him.He probably is looking for chickens to raise.David
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Phantom1
64 posts
Jan 27, 2005
2:13 PM
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Brian, Will You Marry Me? LOL! Well put my man. I like the analogy of sports. Makes perfect sense. As I stated in another post, Have I ever denied that cross breeding occurs or that is still going on today? Absolutely Not! Do I cross breed my birds? Absolutely Not! Am I blind to the fact that there are a lot of "rollers" being passed around that have something else in them - be it two generations back or 10 - Absolutely Not! Do I appreciate being lumped into a category that I do not belong to? Absolutely Not!!! I have many of the same goals in mind as many of the purists - minus the desire at this time in my life to compete with my birds. I'll tell you right now - I'd probably get the crap kicked out of me and either laugh OR cry all the way back home! But I'll admit that.
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Cliff
37 posts
Jan 27, 2005
3:04 PM
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Excellent, excellent, excellent, Brian! Man, I think you could negotiate peace between the Isralies and the Palestinians! I hope we can all take what you said to heart. I know that, personally, I intend to. Thanks for putting things into proper perspective for everyone. Cliff
Last Edited by Cliff on Jan 27, 2005 3:06 PM
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