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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
colored birds
colored birds
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BULLFROG
27 posts
Jan 21, 2005
9:06 AM
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i may be rehashing somthing that was worked out before i got here but the color issue has got me rather baffled. i dint think it was appropriate to mix this with the other thread. if i can trace a family of birds that are known as a colorful line back to bill pensom himself. and i know the birds have been kept pure from there barring a very select few birds brought in from the air this would lead me to belive that the pensom birds are all poor performing mongrels right. i dont thnk anybody would admit to that as the pensom base shows in many of the birds we all have. where does the prejudice to color birds come from?? i have seen this backwards thinking in homers and after the color birds proved themselves most people came around. i have looked and the color rollers have proven themselves but yet the dislike continues. what is it that is the key point in this issue is it the question of being pure breed and haveing color? if that is it an advanced highschool biology and genetics cource could lay this whole thing to rest. thanks chris
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2701Dunn
4 posts
Jan 21, 2005
9:37 AM
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Hey Bullfrog ! I would agree with you I do not agree with just because a bird is a certain color its not a good roller. I have seen red, or yellow be the dumbest bird, and I have seen them be really fantastic in the air. I think you are right I think its the bloodline. I am pretty new to this but have seen alot of guy perform. I do like the black birds with white flights the best. I think they are the easiest to spot out in the air and watch what they are doing exactly. The colored birds I think are a little harder to keep track of as if, its a roll or just a jerk or a weird movement. So I guess its all about the eye of the fancier. Myself, I love having some color in my kits when I fly.
Take care !
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Slobberknocker
11 posts
Jan 21, 2005
12:04 PM
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Bullfrog, I agree 100% with you. But before some of the inner circle gets on here and turns this into another big Roller Smackdown, I think these Roller guys need a drink. I think enough is enough. These birds have been spinning for so long I'd say some of the guys are pretty wound up. Just calm down, sit back, relax, tear up the pedigrees and save the ink.
I am not trying to start something, just trying to prevent it. However, if the guys want to get on here and stir it up some more, I guess they will no matter what I say. As one early thread states, "controversy sells".
These are my thoughts before I get trashed on here for supporting the advancement of the breed by cultivating ALL the beautiful colors this great breed comes in. If it makes some of the guys feel better by calling birds "mongrels" or "crossbreeds" without having ever seen them or knowing anything about them, then let them have that moment. I look at it as that whole "sliver in your friend's eye and log in your own eye" thing (it in the Bible).
Bob
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Phantom1
22 posts
Jan 21, 2005
12:47 PM
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Hey Bullfrog! Every so often, I can't help but jump in here. It's the age old debate over color, and it's not one that can be won by anybody. The bottom line is this. Those that identify birds as "mongrels" or "cross-breeds" have a family of birds that they are happy with and that perform up to their standards as well as what is needed for their competitions. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Scott, Brian, and the like have done more than their share to help others in the hobby. However, it's important to realize that the families of birds many of these fliers have, do not have any of the (what we would consider to be) colored birds in them. The term "loft blindness" comes to mind, but that's probably not an appropriate term. More so, it's probably more a case of these people not ever knowing anything else....anything different. So, as the hobby develops, we're always going to have two roads to choose from. Each should end up making the person happy. Me, I'm a color guy, and happy with my birds. I don't feel any remorse by going out each day and looking at the same birds over and over again. I feel challenged in the hobby, and strive for my own goals to be reached. Inadvertantly, I hope that what I do in my backyard is someday helpful to someone else. It's also important to remember that there are those people out there that DO make crosses with other breeds and will attempt to pass off their birds are pure-bred rollers. Pure Bred Rollers - now are these all Rollers that ROLL in the style of the Birmingham Roller? Absolutely not, and that's another boundary that exists between the goals of some on this forum and those that enjoy the backyard hobby. Neither is a hinderance to the hobby as a whole. Rather we have to be mindful of those going down the strict and rigid road of the Birmingham Roller. To their knowledge, "colors" if you will, do not exist in the Birmingham Roller based on the documented imports. We know and understand how genetics can work, and how to manipulate our pairings to get what we want to look at - without introducing another breed, or sacrficing the solidarity of the breed itself. But the bottom line is that there will always be those that categorize birds, other than those they have either been witness to or taught to believe to be otherwise, as mongrels. It's just a lose, lose situation my friend.
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
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BULLFROG
28 posts
Jan 21, 2005
2:07 PM
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OK CARDS DOWN i belive what you folks have to say may be correct so instead of trying to do battle with the others i will just work on proveing my colors in the fly. thanks to all who have backed me both in the forum and and on the phone. wow what a mess this color subject can stir up. i will put my stir stick away and see you at the world cup. just a note bring dark glasses so you cant tell me birds are colored mongrals haha chris
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Steve S.
40 posts
Jan 21, 2005
2:25 PM
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Eye candy is what I call it.
Pretty colors and they sell.
Just giving the new guys something to think about.
When you stand under alot of kits and under alot of the World Cup and Fall Fly winners kits take notes of what you see.
I have seen over half of them and they take on a certain look after awhile of which you will in time be able to see.
These men have been around for years that win.
Most important thing is that the birds they raise are able to reproduce over the long haul of inbreeding and linebreeding the same quality and depth, generation after generation.
Of these winning W/C bloodlines you will always be able to trace them back to just a few families.
Hummm something to think about!
I would look for performance first and let the color take care of itself.
Steve
Last Edited by Steve S. on Jan 21, 2005 2:27 PM
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Phantom1
23 posts
Jan 21, 2005
2:47 PM
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Chris, It's all a matter of what you like to feed. It's the responsibility of us all to further the hobby. If it's your personal goal to enter competitions, let me know. I'd like to know how your Turners do - no matter if they're Blacks, Blue-Checks or Reduced Indigo carrying Brown, Pencil, Milky and Barless. You're tops in my book for just trying to further the development. If you ever need something, give me a hollar.
Eric
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Mother lode lofts
378 posts
Jan 21, 2005
5:20 PM
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Eric loft blindness comes from never leaving your backyard. Now why did you have to go and bring up my and Brians name ? Neither one of us stepped in on this topic. . I might add that good familys of birds never have to be defended as they stand on thier own.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 21, 2005 6:07 PM
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Mongrel lofts
41 posts
Jan 21, 2005
6:36 PM
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Hi,
I don't want to beat this dead horse again either.. I just want to know from you genetic guys. can you get these factors or patterns you posted here, from the Birmingham roller, using your knowledge about genetics, without first crossing the Birmingham roller onto another breed of pigeon to get the pattern or factor? ((Reduced Indigo carrying Brown, Pencil, Milky and Barless?)) Can you breed these from the Birmingham roller, without crossing breeds to get them?
The point is guys,, were are not talking about color, Rollers come in a huge variety of colors and patterns,, What we are talking about here,, Is crossing breeds, Mongrelizing the Birmingham roller, for a factor, pattern or color.. This is where the Birmingham roller breeder gets off a little.. Guys trying to confuse the new guy, by saying, they just don't like color in their rollers,, Thats not true,, We just don't like Ice Pigeon, Swallow, Modena and other breeds bred into our rollers, for pretty feathers.. Guys, its not that anyone is against color, our rollers are colorful! Its that we are not for cross breeding,(Mongrelizing) the Birmingham roller.. Simple.. Mongrel Lofts
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Slobberknocker
12 posts
Jan 21, 2005
6:51 PM
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Scott,
The "loft blindness" pendulum swings both ways, my friend. You are right, it comes from not leaving your back yard but it can also come from not knowing what is in said back yard. I would venture to say that there are many, many "backyard" Roller guys out there who have as good as or better birds than any top competition guy. They simply choose not to get involved with the politics of the competition venue.
I will never bad mouth anyone's birds or family of birds without first seeing the birds in action for myself. Uninformed criticism is stupid and shows the true ignorance of the critic. Same goes for mass labeling certain birds because of physical traits.
Also, Scott, I must say after reading one of your recent posts to another thread that I am truly sorry for you. You said, in reference to judging a kit of birds, that the judge is not there to be with his buddies or "play pigeon" (I am paraphrasing) and that judging is a job that is no fun. If that is really how the Roller guys are in cometition then I must say that I am very sorry that you feel that way and I must thank you for reinforcing my reasons for not competing. I have always thought of my Pigeons as relaxing and a way to unwind after work. I also look forward to meeting with and visiting my Roller friends.
Anyway, the best of luck to you and everyone else in the upcoming breeding season. And good luck to you, Scott, in the next high-tension, nerve-racking, no-fun fly that you will participate in. I will be thinking of you as us corn-fed good ol' boys here in Nebraska grab a soda and watch our kits fly with no pressure from crticizing eyes.
Bob
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Slobberknocker
13 posts
Jan 21, 2005
6:52 PM
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Mongrel Lofts,
If you do not intend to beat a dead horse, why are you standing there with a club?
Bob
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Mongrel lofts
42 posts
Jan 21, 2005
8:15 PM
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sloberknocker,
You didn't answer the question.. Can you genetic guys breed those factors with in the Birmingham roller breed, without first crossing them on another breed of pigeon? Does it take a cross bred roller, to get those factors and patterns?? Mongrel Lofts
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BULLFROG
31 posts
Jan 21, 2005
9:37 PM
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ok first thanks bob and eric!! i do intend to fly in compitions this year and will be flying one kit of exclusivly turner birds. the second kit i put up will be a kit of rubys and hardsty birds. two are color birds from hall of fame members. this in its self is reason enough to try them for myself. i can speak from very personal knowledge that many colors and factors reside in birds that you think are true to a color. i have been able to breed many colors and factors from a long old line of homers that have been blue for as long as people can remember. i never cross breed any of my birds and the two times i remember an accident happening and the one time i was unsure the heads came off and the eggs thrown. i will NEVER settle for a cross breed or a less than first rate bird period. i guess it is time that you folks know who i am. my loft was BULLFROG LOFTS from colo and my name is chris johnson. those of you familer with the raceing world may recognize me and those in the show world of modenas and english trupeters and pom pouters also. those that do know i am a stickler for quality and if i had no faith in these birds i would have never got them and if they didnt hold up to what i concider to be the top line they would be dead point blank!!!!! i have retired from raceing and am now going to tackle this new venture with the same vigor i did the raceing and i plan on doing the same make what others say cant happen happen. thanks for the support guys. chris
Last Edited by BULLFROG on Jan 21, 2005 9:42 PM
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Alan Bliven
56 posts
Jan 21, 2005
10:14 PM
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I believe the simple way to answer this question is with a question. Do the fancy colored birds win in World Cup competitions?
If yes, than who cares if it's a mongrel? The Birmingham roller is a mongrel itself being crossed with many other breeds to obtain it. In other words, if it rolls with the best of them it's a roller.
If no, then a roller can be bred for color AND roll, but only for back yard enjoyment and not world class competition. That being said, common sense dictates world class competition is what will continue to improve the B. roller and not backyard enjoyment.
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Alan
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Mother lode lofts
379 posts
Jan 21, 2005
11:15 PM
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Alan with that way of thinking then there are no breeds of anything.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 21, 2005 11:21 PM
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Alan Bliven
57 posts
Jan 22, 2005
12:03 AM
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Of course you are right, all I was saying was almost all breeds were created from mixing other breeds together. A pigeon is only one species not many. Don't get me wrong, I sure am not advocating doing such a thing with a B. Roller. The main reason is I believe it would hurt the breed.
But that really wasn't the point of my post unless it's true there are a lot of fancy colors that win in the World Cup. Could cross bred rollers compete at a world class level? I doubt it.
I have a hard time believing many of the fancy colors aren't crossed with other breeds. Most of the Homer people admit they have crossed them with other breeds to get color and then back again for performance.
Regardless of whether they are or not, I don't fall on the color side because I don't even care for the fancy colors in rollers. A white barred roller just don't look natural on a B. roller to me, neither do the other fancy colors. Now, that's just my personal opinion. To me the natural color on a roller is blue with some white markings of badge, bald, odd side, ash red, tort, grizzle etc. But that's just my opinion, maybe because I've been out of rollers for 30 years.
The beauty of a roller goes beyond the color of the feathers and even performance, it's in the heart and that expresses itself in the way the bird holds itself. It's like the bird is royalty and knows it.
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Alan
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Mother lode lofts
380 posts
Jan 22, 2005
12:23 AM
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You guys seem to have a real need to drag me into this shit Bob why is that ? What are you guys bored ? Here I will humor you.
First I'll touch on the pedigrees that you suggest should be ripped up. First off they can be valuable breeding tools up closer and they are a history of linage which also has it's values.
But if the birds up the line were not bred properly then they mean little. Your statement was silly to say the least. But then it is easy to understand why someone would disregard such an important tool when they raise and sell the mixed blood birds. It wouldn't be too good for sales now would it Bob as it would be kind of hard to truthfully explain away the orgins of say a toy stencel wouldn't it.
There are two major things that will hold a flyer back. One is pedigree breeding, for those that don't know it is when all that matters is what looks good on paper. Pedigrees are only as good as the birds behind them. The other is breeding for particular colors. I'm talking any color here that is within the breed and not even talking about the odd stuff that was brought in by other breeds. These are setbacks and nothing more.
As for judging Bob,yea I take it serious as do most that I know. There is to much work put into these teams and familys by most of the flyers out there not to. No Bob I don't expect you to understand this either. There are plenty of other times to sit under a team of birds with a cold soda with buddys watching birds. But standing under someone elses hard work scoreing a team isn't that time.
And Bob as for the comment on there being many many backyard fliers out there with as good or better birds then the "TOP" competitive flyers out there. Are you kidding me ? Do you really think that new guys here will buy that line of crap Bob ?
There are talkers and there are doers Bob. One thing that I have discovered about talkers Bob whether it's pigeons or anything else is generally they are just full of shit .
What I have found about the bulk of talkers when it comes to these birds is that generally they are also feather merchants, all talk and exscuses why they won't fly. Talk comes much easier but it just doesn't fly far past beginners though. Plus it just isn't good for sales is it Bob.
Have a nice day
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 22, 2005 3:00 AM
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Mother lode lofts
381 posts
Jan 22, 2005
12:34 AM
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Allen that last sentence says alot . That is the thinking of someone that is going beyond the paint job and that is where the beauty of the breed shines when on the perch. There are some striking colors within the breed no doubt. I allways thought that the colors within the breed when on a first class bird all the way around is hard to match as far as beauty.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 22, 2005 12:45 AM
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Slobberknocker
14 posts
Jan 22, 2005
3:47 AM
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I figured these posts would turn this way. Well, congratulations Scott, you have driven yet another from this site. I would ask Tony to remove all my information from this forum including all posts. This will be my last post and last visit to this site.
It is not because you have won, Scott. It is because you cannot respectfully reply to posts. I know you will reply to this as you always have to have the last word so I will leave you with these parting thoughts....
The las time James Turner flew in competition, he won Stae Champion and is score with colored birds was more than the second and third place people's COMBINED!! James Turner has had Rollers for over 45 years and got his stock directly from Bill Pensom. Scott has done this for maybe 7 or 8 years. I know where I will get my advice from.
Also, if you look on the NBRC website under their "Hall of Fame" you will find James Turner's name. James Turner breeds colored birds. I didn't see Scott's name there, though. Must have been an oversight on the part of the NBRC. Right, Scott?
Again, I won't be back and I want my information deleted from this website.
Bob
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Leo
49 posts
Jan 22, 2005
8:19 AM
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Hey Bob, I know how you feel, but dont let "KNOW IT ALLS" ruin your interest in expressing your opinion. I mean we all know these two "HOTSHOTS" get on as many sights as possible, and RUN THEIR MOUTH, You would think, with all their scientific explainations,that they really KNEW SOMETHING.I have read nearly all their answers,throughout these pages,keeping 'track' of their answers,I found they were a mere 40% correct,which makes you hope the new guys aren't being swayed too much. As far as 'backyarders' you betcha there are many, many with TOP OF THE LINE birds and kits.Birds that these two 'hotdogs'would give their entire loft to own a pr. ..LEO
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nicksiders
94 posts
Jan 22, 2005
9:47 AM
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I believe people are leary of the "color" birds because of what some breeders have done to get those colors. They have brought in others breeds (other than rollers) to get certain colors, thus the breakdown of the breed.
So many breeders who devote thier efforts in keeping the breed as pure as it can be are always skeptical of the color breeders.
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BULLFROG
32 posts
Jan 22, 2005
9:55 AM
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WOW this seems to be a bigger ball of wax than i thought. i guess i will keep my opinions in my loft next time. bob eric and leo thanks for the support. i belive that in time all things will wash out. each of will fly the birds we perfere and as long as we like what we feed and fly thats all that matters here. mother lode even though we seeem to have a vast diagreement on the color issue i would like to talk to you about your knowledge and experiance as a judge in the flys. there are few points and rules that i am unsure of if you get a chance and are willing to help a color flyer please email me and i will ask the questions i have thanks all chris
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Mother lode lofts
386 posts
Jan 22, 2005
10:19 AM
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Yes Chris this allways gets crappy and is allways a good one to avoid. But Chris don't mis-understand my position here. I don't care what anybody flys or does in thier backyards but I don't like the smokescreen that some throw over these birds to suit an agenda that normally involves around selling birds and puposely misleading those that do not know the difference. The same can be said for pedigree breeders also. There are flyers and there are talkers. It sounds like you want to be a flier, thats good and I wish you the best with it,anybody that is willing to put them up for all to see with a judge under them deserves respect in my book. What is your question on judging ? I will answer it the best I can.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 22, 2005 10:35 AM
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BULLFROG
33 posts
Jan 22, 2005
1:03 PM
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i understand the whole breaking issue and the mutipliers there but i have questions on the kiting issue how long does a bird have to get back to the kit? and on the timeing the way i understand it is that i have 5 minutes from when i turn my birds up to call time and then they have 20 minutes to be judged is this correct?? as i look over the scores on the nbrc site for the fall fly i see many DQ kits. what are the things i need to be aware of that will get my kit DQed? how does the depth and quality multipiers work? any other things i have not mentioned here that i need to be aware of i would appreciate greatly. i have been looking at the scores of the fall fly in my division 7A is the highest score in the fall fly in each division the one that competes in the world cup? or is there another way they figure that? does the club flys through out the year have any affect on the entrance in the W.C.? i am not going to have a mature kit to fly in the spring flys here this year will this prevent me from being a contender? i can put a kit in the air but they will still be to young to be worth much untill the summer flys. i know a lot of questions thanks chris
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BULLFROG
34 posts
Jan 22, 2005
1:06 PM
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one more question i forgot. ina 20 bird kit do i have to put up exactly 20 birds? some have told me just 20 birds period and some have said between 15 and 20. thanks chris
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Mother lode lofts
388 posts
Jan 22, 2005
1:53 PM
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Chris they must return directly back to the kit. If they loop around or turn away from the kit then they are considered out. Birds that just roll out of the kit are not considered out unless they turn away or are returning back to the kit and roll again.
Yes you have up to 5 minutes to call them in but you can call them in at any time up to that point , at 5 minutes they automaticly go on the clock if you havn't called them in.
The scoreing time is for 20 minutes but they must go at least 15 minutes to keep the score ( I have DQed with two seconds to go for the 15 min. before)You can have one bird out and continue scoreing,Two birds out and scoreing stops, two birds land and the fly is over,if they land before the 15 min then it is a DQ.
As for kit numbers you can fly 15 birds min and 20 birds max. You allways want to fly 16 min though that way if one bird comes out scoreing continues. If you are only flying 15 and one bird is out of the kit scoreing stops due to you cannot go under that 15 in a kit.
As for looking at regional score's you can't really compare them to other regions as there were different judges used. If you want a much better perspective look and the "finals" score as these were all judged by the same judge.
As for flying immature birds this year, go for it as it doesn't matter. More times than not we going in with a team that we know isn't up to par, it doesn't matter though we put them up regardless.
Dqs are generally due to either gambling with the feed or questionable birds. you just have to weigh these gambles and lean towards the safe side
Hope this helps
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 22, 2005 2:35 PM
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jeo2314
6 posts
Jan 22, 2005
1:57 PM
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Good post Nick. That about sums it up. The rest, I think the damage has already been done, although I don't think it was intentional, at least that is not how I saw it.
Jeff
Last Edited by jeo2314 on Jan 22, 2005 2:01 PM
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fhtfire
90 posts
Jan 22, 2005
2:30 PM
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Hey,
It does not matter if you have a young kit. Put the kit up anyway. I did at the fall fly. My oldest bird in the kit was 6 months old. I scored 18 raw points and I was happy as a clam! But the best thing about flying is you get top fliers at you house to look at your set-up. They will also give you good advice. Anybody can come to my house at anytime to watch my birds//even if they suck ass. I don't care...because everytime someone comes over I learn something new....just put them up...the older fliers know that you are new and they respect that. Plus it is usually the only time you will have a lot of different fliers at your house at one time!
Scott...I am going to give you a call...I have some questions about preparing for a comp...is that cool!
rock and ROLL!
Paul Fullerton
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BULLFROG
35 posts
Jan 22, 2005
6:43 PM
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ok great thanks. by gambling with food and birds you mean the time and kitting issues? when adjusting feed for time and performance is it wiser to start with qantity or protien? i ahve gotten very good at mixing feed for the homers and with them it is not how much they eat but how hot the feed is. buuuutttttt we never wanted or needede our birds hungery to come home!!! chris
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Mongrel lofts
43 posts
Jan 22, 2005
8:35 PM
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Hey Chris,
we don't fly all that far apart.. I live in Idaho. I hope to get to see you at the convention this year.. Chris, I think you have this color issue confused.. I have been breeding and flying rollers for over 25 years and thats not counting the young years, learning what a roller was.. Chris, go to the NBRC and see if you can get the tapes on color genetics in rollers.. On there, at least the ones they first put out,"been a few years since I seen those first sold copies. You will see how the color is introduced to the Birmingham roller.. It is stated and shown, they make the first cross to another breed and for the first 4 or 5 generations, the birds are not flown.. Once they get the conformation and type back to the roller type, along with the newly added factor, color or pattern, they start to fly them to put the roll back in them.. Now to do this, you have to have a good if not great family of Birmingham rollers, to add the roll to the color crosses.. This was put out for all to see. I don't understand why, when someone points out the truth, that the Birmingham roller is crossed with other breeds to get these new factors, colors and patterns, Everyone goes into the smoke screen .. Its just the way it is Chris...
Look up the definition of Mongrel in the dictionary.. Its the crossing of two breeds.. If you bred a poodle on a yorkie dog, what would you call the pups? If you bred a Birmingham roller on a swallow, what would you call the young? I would call the off spring the same thing( Mongrels)
I think if you ask, how you get toy stencil, reduced and the likes, You will get an honest answer.. You have to cross breeds to get factors colors and patterns not found in the Birmingham roller..
Many believe in, as long as it rolls well, its the same as any other Birmingham roller. I don't think so! Crossing breeds not only changes the color, pattern and factors of the birds, but it changes things you cant see on the out side.. It changes those things inside the Birmingham roller that many of us see as the real nature of the breed.. You can't make the cross and split out all the genes added, and just pick the pretty feathers. Other things change also..
This is my opinion and observation of the rare factored cross bred rollers.. I know there are many with another opinion.. They have the right to express that opinion, just like I have the right to express my opinion..
I have some friends that fly some rare colored birds that I have seen roll great! That does not take away the fact, those birds are cross breeds that roll..Not the same as the Birmingham roller imported to this country by Father shlatterman (sp) Leroy Smith and many of the other men of old times, who seen the value in the breed Birmingham roller and spent their lives, breeding and promoting the Birmingham roller.. Some of us, want to see this breed carried forward into the future for those that come after us, just like it was handed down to our generation. Not crossed to swallows and other breeds, then called the same, When you get some to roll again!! It doesn't make them the same breed again!! Those birds are rollers, but they are not Birmingham rollers, they are some other type of roller cross.. With a gene pool, completely foreign to the Birmingham roller breed! Until they are labeled with a breed name, they are Mongrels in my book..
I look forward to meeting you one day soon Chris..
I hope this post at least helps you and others understand the purist point of view on the Birmingham roller. Mongrel Lofts
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Bluesman
84 posts
Jan 23, 2005
5:08 AM
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Ken.It sounds like you know nothing about Genetics.Not a bad thing but how can you say for a fact something you don,t know what you are talking about.You are only talking about what Pensom first brought here or had imported after he came here.These birds are just a Strain from the Birmingham Rollers.Where did Reduced,Barless etc come from?I agree with you that some colors have had other breeds crossed to make it.But that being true and it was done in England before Pensom left or after he left are they still rejected as being Birmingham Rollers.If so why are they being flown in NBRC flys,the World cup as being Birmingham Rollers?
By the way I just seen your 11 bird score on the NBRC site.Very Impressive.Thanks,David
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Mongrel lofts
46 posts
Jan 23, 2005
6:58 AM
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Dave,
It sounds to me, like you know nothing of the English imports. But thats ok.. I was there when Joe Kiser and Joe Borges imported the Ollie Harris birds in 80.. I seen for many years the birds bred down from those pigeons.. No Mongrel factors, colors or patterns ever bred from them as pure stock..
I have seen many many of the imported birds from George Mason, to , Chuck and our friend Ellis has them also.. I have not seen Ellis stock, but the others I have.. Never a Mongrel factor in those birds, no Milky, no barless, no toy stencil or pencil, or almond.. Im betting the only lofts these rare cross colors are popping up in Dave, are the lofts that are already fooling with and have the factors in their lofts..
You know, I have bred my birds and inbred my birds and line bred my birds for 25years,, Never an odd color not even a Dilute.. I send a pair to a friend who loaned a pair to another guy in NY.. This guy liked yellows and has a bunch of them.. Guess what, wasnt long before this man was saying he was getting yellows out of my birds. I don't have the dilute gene, but he had a loft of yellows,, so where do you think the diliute gene might have came from Dave? Several people breed and fly my stock around the country Dave.. THousands of birds bred and no one has ever popped up with a dilute, an odd color or factor.. Funny, the only time it happens, is when the birds go to a loft with the factors and patterns in other Mongrelized birds,, then all of a sudden, the pure stock begins to throw these things also,, and the guy yells, the genes were in the Birmingham roller all along,, see I just bred a Milky from Geroge Mason birds.. Poor George!!! LOL
Thanks for the kind words on the National win Dave.. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by on Oct 09, 2008 4:53 PM
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viper
24 posts
Jan 23, 2005
7:22 AM
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Chris go ahead and put them up.The main thing Ihave learned
is when you open the door for 20 min. you have no control as to what they will do as for as scoring.I have young birds come out and work well enough to win some flys on that day and old birds just fly with no breaks on that day.
I try to set them up to fly for 25 min. at agood hieght
this being done with feed and how much flying the days before.then open the doors with a couple hail marrys fingers crossed and watch them go.If they are crap that day
dam maybe the next fly.Blake Utah
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Bluesman
85 posts
Jan 23, 2005
7:56 AM
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Going to combine answers to both threads in this one.LOL My Mason birds all came thru John Harp.He kept them pure as far as I know..You say you have no Dilute.For sure you can breed from them for 100 years and you never will get any.Point taken.
Everyone knows that Pensom had dilute.Still Birmingham Rollers.
O.K.Barless.I don,t have any in my loft.Only ever had 2 and they came thru Turner.Both hens.I have 3 out of one of the hens that I am flying now.None are Barless but they carry Barless.If I would ever sell(don,t intend to) or someone sold them after my demise and they mated the cock with one of hens Barless will show itself.Mated seperate and it never will show.
I seen several pics of Barless in the book of Graham Dexter's.Are they not Birmingham's?
One had PINK Bars.What was that?
Some of these crossbred rollers like frill stencil etc I wouldn't know one if I seen it.But at some point in time if they are bred back generation after generation and prove themself as to what a Birmingham is suppose to do become Pure again and are Birmingham's again.My opinion.
Like people.When did we become Americans or are we a bunch of Crossed up Mongrels?
Bill Pensom was in my opinion the best roller man to ever live.It will be hard to equal what he done for the roller's.But his rollers developed into his strain.They came off of the Original Birmingham Rollers.
Go back to the History of the Birmingham's.They were sought after so bad that the only way they could be obtained was by Catching Strays.Then all of a sudden everyone wanted rollers.Bill left England.Why? All of a sudden Rollers were being Imported out of England to all these countries.Where did they develop from so soon after a few short years before there was none to be had.I find it hard to believe that only the few basic colors were the only ones Imported out of England.Where did Recessive Red come from.Why was it used.Because it had more roll.Something those English boys took pride in.Do you Honestly think they hadn,t tried other mixes to get better roll?
Just a lot of unanswered questions.My main question is;When is a Roller not called a Birmingham Roller?The only answer I have had so far is from Nick.LOL
I have all these books that I read,everything that I can find on the innernet about rollers and see these colors,factors etc talked about,see these same birds being flown in competition belonging to members of NBRC called Birmingham Rollers but yet these same rollers being called Crossbreeds,Mongrels and not Pure Birmingham Rollers.
What's a newcomer to the sport suppose to think?
Either they are or they are not.Kick every roller out of NBRC that is not Pure.What have you got to compete with?
I am not knocking NBRC.I just joined this year after finding out my rollers were actually Birmingham's.Should there be two clubs?One for the Purebred and one for the ones that can,t prove they are Purebred?David
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Bill
13 posts
Jan 23, 2005
10:51 AM
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Hi, I just read through all the posts and it was fun. I would say that some of you are not comparing apples with apples here. As I understood scott he said that he isnot against a pretty bird, ( in the eye of the behoder) but anything crossed into a roller to get a certain color. I cant argue with that. It makes total sense to me. Trying to get certain colors can be the worst thing to do to develop good rollers unless the the two you put together are real champs. It is true guys with mixed colors have won in the WC like Joe Roe and John Bender. John even said his 1994 WC winning kit was a mixed up kit of birds and not one, two or three family of birds but several. That is not the norm but nothing is set in stone with rollers. I had a grizzle bird with a black seft white flight with white stripes on its head. They put out many rollers and one came out white with black or grey on the wing tips and tail tips. I thought this was a great looking bird. I lost it the first time out to fly. I like all rollers and have several colors, but my first kit I raised my favorite was a pretty bird and rolled thirty feet at three months and was dead by four months to rolling down. By the end of the second year I pulled out two cocks to breed from and they were both checkers. So as time went by my favorites have changed. The best rollers will always be your bestperforming birds period, even if you do not know it!!! I like color birds too but not any thing that was mixed in the birds or because of something in its color regradless of its performance. I may some day wind up with one color at this rate? I have like to put light colors with dark colors and still do. I have a few birds from a friend whos birds look very much like Scott Cambles birds and am not going to mix in a color with them or I would end up ruining some good birds. I have the others Jaconette line to continue with. I have found that in three years you will soon find in your birds certain colors that stand out. For instance I have some re-red white flights that have just one red tail feather. Most of them I raise roll good out of what my birds are capable of doing. In time you would wind up with clones by picking out he best to best in the long hall. If you have ever seen the videos of Pensom birds he didn't have clone though. He had a mixed variety and actually very few in number of checks. So there you have it as usual, nothing is set in stone. EXCEPT I agree with Scott, don't buy, sell or give away a bird that has something mixed into it that was not a roller. Its not that hard to understand, is it? Bill
Last Edited by Bill on Jan 23, 2005 10:57 AM
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Bluesman
88 posts
Jan 23, 2005
11:50 AM
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Bill.There is nothing any more fun like a good roller discussion to pass the time on these cold winter days.LOL.David
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Phantom1
24 posts
Jan 23, 2005
1:53 PM
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Scott, I mentioned your name and Brian's because - whether you believe it or not, there is an admitted respect for what you do for the hobby. Though I've visited the site from time to time and have seen many of your posts - and those have been (as we've mentioned off line) a bit abrassive. But you've admitted that LOL! The point I tried to make in my original post was that you do what you can to forward the hobby, and I completely respect that. It was not my intent to reflect upon you any negative sentiments. I'll have to keep reading and catch up on the posts, but wanted to address your reply to my post first and foremost. I'm sure other comments will be forth coming...LOL!
Eric
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RodB
29 posts
Jan 23, 2005
2:30 PM
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With all the talk of colored birds , I would like to know how many guys here dont have any color in thier birds , my own Canadian birds from Weins are all selfs not a color to be seen other than Blue Bar , Red Bar , Black , Red Check ,Blue Check, Red , a few of the blacks have a white flight but thats the only white I get .
So how many of you only have selfs ?
Rod
PS I wish you guys would sign your name at the end your posts , as someone will refer to a guy by name because he knows him and the others must go through the posts and profiles to see who he is refering to , most do put thier name but a lot dont .
Last Edited by RodB on Jan 23, 2005 2:35 PM
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Mongrel lofts
47 posts
Jan 23, 2005
3:21 PM
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Going to combine answers to both threads in this one.LOL My Mason birds all came thru John Harp.He kept them pure as far as I know..
((David, do yourself a favor,, Ask John if he has had other birds on his place carrying Milky and barless on his place? I think you will find where your rare factors came from..))
You say you have no Dilute.For sure you can breed from them for 100 years and you never will get any.Point taken.
Everyone knows that Pensom had dilute.Still Birmingham Rollers.
(( Dave, I agree. Dilute was in the imports and Pensom kept some in his lofts.. Dilute in my book is a color within the breed.. It just is not in the Pensom stock I have. At least not from the thousands of birds I have seen bred, from myself and those who keep my family pure..))
O.K.Barless.I don,t have any in my loft.Only ever had 2 and they came thru Turner.Both hens.I have 3 out of one of the hens that I am flying now.None are Barless but they carry Barless.If I would ever sell(don,t intend to) or someone sold them after my demise and they mated the cock with one of hens Barless will show itself.Mated seperate and it never will show.
(( Dave, Exactly, at some point Barless will show up in the stock you have bred, becuase you added it and you know it. You added barless from the Turner stock.. Turner, where did he add barless from? You see, the factor was added to the breed, you guys put it in your stock.. These things don't just pop up in the breed, they are added by someone.. Some are honest about how and where the factor came from.. Others, try to say, well it was in there all along.))
I seen several pics of Barless in the book of Graham Dexter's.Are they not Birmingham's?
One had PINK Bars.What was that?
(( I haven't seen the pictures in winners with spinners, so I really can't comment.. Are these birds blue odd side balds or broach's? Who does it say bred the birds??))
Some of these crossbred rollers like frill stencil etc I wouldn't know one if I seen it.But at some point in time if they are bred back generation after generation and prove themself as to what a Birmingham is suppose to do become Pure again and are Birmingham's again.My opinion.
(( I have seen both Vienna Tumblers and Oriental Rollers that could roll hard and with good depth.. I guess these breeds of tumblers are now Birmingham rollers.. Since the Birmingham is not a breed, but only defined by if it rolls well.. Just my opinion, but I don't think so!!! )
Like people.When did we become Americans or are we a bunch of Crossed up Mongrels?
(( Thats just funny Dave!! When did the Monkey become a man? Or are we all just Monkeys? LOL That makes about as much sense at your comparison..))
Bill Pensom was in my opinion the best roller man to ever live.It will be hard to equal what he done for the roller's.But his rollers developed into his strain.They came off of the Original Birmingham Rollers.
Go back to the History of the Birmingham's.They were sought after so bad that the only way they could be obtained was by Catching Strays.Then all of a sudden everyone wanted rollers.Bill left England.Why?
(( Why do you think Bill left England,, I could make some guesses, but that just what they would be, Guesses,, like he wanted a better life for his family. He had struggled through WW2 to even feed his birds.. He sold and shipped birds to the states durning that time, and had Americans sending him feed.. He came to visit, and seen that the Americans didn't understand how to breed or fly rollers.. He had much more opportunity to make a living and contacts here. Those are just a couple guesses.. Why don't you tell me why Bill came to the USA?? ))
All of a sudden Rollers were being Imported out of England to all these countries.Where did they develop from so soon after a few short years before there was none to be had.I find it hard to believe that only the few basic colors were the only ones Imported out of England.
(( I'm sure you do find it hard to believe, but that is what the records show.. Those that have bred the rollers to rollers, don't get the odd factors and patterns.. Its not until someone makes the first cross, that the odd stuff pops up..
Dave, where do you get the birds were so rare, that the only place you could get a Birmingham roller was to trap it in?? I have seen where a few fanciers liket Bill Richards would not let anyone have birds of thier family, the only way to get one, was to trap.. But in the old days in England,, it is said that every 3rd house flew rollers or tumblers.. I can easily see where all the Birminghams come from..
Side not, it was also said, that many of the English were mad at Pensom, for taking so much of the cream of the Birmgham roller from England.. Not by todays english, but by the old timers of his day..))
Where did Recessive Red come from.Why was it used.Because it had more roll.Something those English boys took pride in.Do you Honestly think they hadn,t tried other mixes to get better roll?
(( Rec, Red was one of the first Birmingham roller colors and has always been in the breed as its know in the USA.. Look on the Pensom book, the crystal palace cock was a rec Red Mottler.. #495 the clay Hen was rec, red.. What does rec, red and Mongrelizing the breed today, have to do with each outher?? I can show you Rec. Red in the imports, can you show me toy stencil in the imports?? NO!!))
Just a lot of unanswered questions.My main question is;When is a Roller not called a Birmingham Roller?The only answer I have had so far is from Nick.LOL
(( When a man takes a Birmingham roller and breeds it to another breed of pigeon, not to make better roll, but to get a color, factor or pattern,, it is no longer a birmingham roller!! These mongrel's or cross bred pigeons, can bred to roll again, but they carry a differnt genetic package then the Birmingham roller as it was known and is known to those who have kept the breed pure..))
I have all these books that I read,everything that I can find on the innernet about rollers and see these colors,factors etc talked about,see these same birds being flown in competition belonging to members of NBRC called Birmingham Rollers but yet these same rollers being called Crossbreeds,Mongrels and not Pure Birmingham Rollers.
What's a newcomer to the sport suppose to think?
(( He is supposed to think, Hmmmmmm some guys are crossing breeds to get pretty feathers and markings.. If I want Birmingham rollers, I will have to do a little home work!! )
Either they are or they are not.Kick every roller oeut of NBRC that is not Pure.What have you got to compete with?
I am not knocking NBRC.I just joined this year after finding out my rollers were actually Birmingham's.Should there be two clubs?One for the Purebred and one for the ones that can,t prove they are Purebred?David
(( No Dave,, this is rediculous,, You can fly a kit of west of englands in the NBRC flys or the WC flys.. There is not rule in either fly or organization that you must fly Birmingham rollers in any fly I know of.. You culd fly a kit of homers if you like.. The competition is for rollers.. Has nothing to do with Birmingham rollers.. Good try at scaring people into thinking BS.. Just more smoke this last point.. Mongrels Lofts ))
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Bluesman
90 posts
Jan 23, 2005
4:41 PM
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O.K.I didn,t know it was open for every breed.Told you I knew nothing about competitions.
O.K.If Bill took most of the Cream of the rollers from England what was left for everyone else to get when the demand was so high?
You didn,t answer if you honestly thought they didn,t try other mixes beside the Rec.Red.By the way what is a Rec.Red genetically?
Barless Rollers;Mealy Cock bred & owned by Graham Dexter.
Mealy hen bred & owned by John Thompson.
Mealy hen bred by the late Ollie Harris(where did I hear that name before)
What about a Dark Chequer Bald Crested Cock bred by Les Bezance?It sure couldn,t be a Birmingham.Heck everyone tried to have Stan run off for such a bird. I could find you more examples but these were what was in Graham Dexter's book.Still being called Birmingham Rollers and good ones at that.What am I not seeing here?Am I that stupid that I can,t see the difference.
What you are saying is there is 2 types of rollers.One is a Birmingham roller the other just crossbred rollers that roll like Birminghams.
Bill Pensom said there was only one roller that could perform to the standard of the Birmingham Roller.So how can a judge stand under a kit of rollers that are mixed of Birmingham Rollers and the crossbred roller and judge fairly?Come on; I ain't trying to blow smoke screens but it sure looks like no one wants to answer my questions.But it sure is easy to answer a question with a question.David
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Phantom1
26 posts
Jan 23, 2005
5:13 PM
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Mongrel, just a point of clarification - not to be argumentative, but Barless is not a factor. Rather it is a pattern that even Spread birds can carry. If it's not bred for, it will not be reproduced since it is the least dominant of the patterns ALL BREEDS ARE SUBJECT TO. You don't have to cross an archangel on a roller to get a solid blue wing. Likewise, you don't have to cross a homer on a roller to get checks if you don't have it in your loft. It exists, by simple order of dominance, in some rollers. ALL ROLLERS DO NOT CARRY BARLESS, yet there are some, and those are the ones that have been bred, singled out, etc....whatever you would like to call it and inbred to reproduce that trait.
Someone had asked about how many of us have "self" birds. About 90% of my birds are self. I can't remember the reason it was asked, but thought I'd go ahead and try to answer the post.
Eric
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Mongrel lofts
48 posts
Jan 23, 2005
6:03 PM
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O.K.I didn,t know it was open for every breed.Told you I knew nothing about competitions.
O.K.If Bill took most of the Cream of the rollers from England what was left for everyone else to get when the demand was so high?
(( Dave, I never said Pensom took most of the cream, I said he took so much of the cream,, not most.. I'm sure there were lots and lots of great Birmingham rollers left in England.. Wait, look at the WC fly reports.. We know they have and had plenty of great rollers!! You were trying to make it sound like the Birmingham roller was so rare in Pensom's day, that they must have sent cross breeds out as Birminghams..l don't think so.. ))
You didn't answer if you honestly thought they didn't try other mixes beside the Rec.Red.By the way what is a Rec.Red genetically?
(( What mix do you think they used to get rec, red? Rec red is a Recessive autosomal mutation. in laymen's terms, it works like a coat. A bird can be blue or ash red or other things under the rec, red cover.. It works kind of like a mask, to hide color.. Both parents have to carry rec, red for the young to be rec, red.. I know for sure, Rec Red has been in the Birmingham roller, since it was shipped to this country..
What birds may have been crossed to make the Birmingham roller 200 years ago,, No one really knows now do they.. Many have guessed, but that's all they can do.. By the time Pensom imported the Birmingham roller to this country, it was an established breed.. That is what is important to this debate..Do you think Dave, the English were shipping Swallow, oriental frill, ice pigeon crossed on rollers for pretty feathers to this country.. Wrong! You should ask George Mason if he would cross a swallow on his stock to get a factor, pattern or color? Those who created the breed, only used the best performing breeds of the day.. They wouldn't breed a non performing ice pigeon for a pretty feather, like they are doing now.. I think we can safely assume this!!
Dave, use a little common sense here,, If you were going to pay $100 of dollars to import rollers to yourself in another country or to those you new.. Would you have sent a Birmingham roller crossed on a mookie to found your stud and carry on your name, in the new country? Pensom and the men who shipped the Birmingham roller to this country where sending not only their stock, but their names with that stock.. I doubt they sent anything less than Birmingham rollers.. Bad as you would like to think they sent cross breeds for pretty feathers,,, I'm just as sure they didn't!!!))
Barless Rollers;Mealy Cock bred & owned by Graham Dexter.
Mealy hen bred & owned by John Thompson.
Mealy hen bred by the late Ollie Harris(where did I hear that name before)
What about a Dark Chequer Bald Crested Cock bred by Les Bezance?It sure couldn,t be a Birmingham.Heck everyone tried to have Stan run off for such a bird. I could find you more examples but these were what was in Graham Dexter's book.Still being called Birmingham Rollers and good ones at that.What am I not seeing here?Am I that stupid that I can,t see the difference.
(( I haven't had the pleasure of reading this book, so I will pass on answering.. I have already gotten half facts on This thread.. On that last question, I will pass there also!! LOL))
What you are saying is there is 2 types of rollers.One is a Birmingham roller the other just crossbred rollers that roll like Birminghams.
(( No, there are Birmingham rollers, and cross breds that roll.. One is a cross bred pigeon that rolls, one is a pure bred Birmingham roller..))
Bill Pensom said there was only one roller that could perform to the standard of the Birmingham Roller.So how can a judge stand under a kit of rollers that are mixed of Birmingham Rollers and the crossbred roller and judge fairly?Come on;
(( Easy Dave, you judge roll, not breeds in competition.. If you flew a kit of English trumpeters that spun 10 to 50 feet in breaks, with good quality spin, you could win a fly competition with your rolling trumpeters .. They would not be Birmingham rollers!!! But I guess you would try and say they were Birmingham rollers, because they rolled.. Come on Dave, I'm answering your questions, but you have to read the answers!!! LOL ) )
I ain't trying to blow smoke screens but it sure looks like no one wants to answer my questions.But it sure is easy to answer a question with a question.David
(( Man you have that one down to a fine art!! Been fun David.. I'm off this topic,, like always, it just goes in circles,, Mongrel breeders who sell birds for their rare colors, don't want the truth,, they want to believe the king has clothes!! Mongrel Lofts..))
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Steve S.
44 posts
Jan 23, 2005
6:26 PM
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Hi Bill,
Glad you mentioned my neibor Joe Roe and my cousin John Bender.
They live about 10 minutes from me.
I am older than both of them and watched their kits tru the years and I even have their bloodlines first hand in my lofts.
I have had rollers as far back as 1953 and belonged to the Penson Roller Club in 1959.
I had to work alot of hours and away alot and never got to compete untill I retired a couple years ago.
I am not correcting you don't take it that way but I want to explain the birds of color as you mentioned LOL.
As you said Johns 94 kit was from more than 3 families.
BUT: They were the normal birds of color.
Some had some white flights and some balds and a couple whites.
They were not of the ones we are talking about like , Milky,barless,stencil,pencil,dilutes, you get the drift.
Joes 93 kit were of the Hardesty family of which he refined and they were the same as Johns with less white.
I still have his bloodline her.
He gave me his 1994 Blurr hen a blue ck. oddside and she still lays.
I have his 4611 cock side.
Richard Miller of Attica got his best cock #577 and still breeds that line today.
Both of these gents bred the true Birminghams.
Later
Steve
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Bluesman
91 posts
Jan 23, 2005
7:35 PM
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Ken.It is just like before.When someone proves that their were other colors,factors,pattern before what Pensom brought here or after(even now in England the first thing is to say that's it I am out of here.The truth is you can,t answer honestly or you just don,t care to.You were the one that said Ollie Harris never had barless.Facts are facts.What Pensom said about only one roller could perform like a Birmingham is not true I guess.What else did he write that wasn,t true according to you?Now you are saying that anything that rolls can be judged but can,t be called a Birmingham.Why belong to the NBRC?Why would they allow someone to fly Tumblers or Swallows or Crossbred Mongrels in a Birmingham Club.I never seen before now where you could fly tumblers and others in the NBRC.Sure has made me take a closer look at NBRC.I am going to ask you one other question and then we will close this thread down.We have been here before.I learned some things and I am sure some others have to.I am not trying to tear down anything about the Rollers.I love them and will do whatever I can to help someone get started in them.Just debating the whole Birmingham/Color issue.
I am going to ask you one other question and then we will close this thread down.How many Rollers that you call Crossbred have you seen flown in the big flys?
I do want to say one other thing to the Newcomer before we close this debate down one more time(LOL)and that is that there is a lot of crossbred birds out there for sale that CAN NOT ROLL.One thing we will all agree on from this site is to ask a lot of questions before you buy.I don,t know anyone on here that won't bend over backward to help you and will give you Honest answers about their birds.David
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Bill
15 posts
Jan 23, 2005
9:19 PM
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Hello Steve S. Thanks for commenting on my post. I didn't mean that John and Joe had pink stincil and milky, but that they had some nice colored birds. I put in ( eye of the beholderr) because I thought they were nice birds. I tried to explain that by comparing apples to apples that these colors are OK with most everyone even Scott Cambel. But that mixing in birds from another source other than a roller was where you had the apple with orange comparason. I had gotten a old video from Donny James and saw Johns Salt and Petter loft and all the ohter guys lofts. I learned some new things in that old video. You can tell them at the next fly that I enjoyed wathcing it and learned from Joe Roe that you want three or four good lead birds not just one and how you can hold up an egg and see if it is fertil to a light at night and things like that. I understand where you wanted to clarify that they didnot fly these out of the ordinary colored birds. That to me seeing all of them they looked like nice colored birds and they were not all just black selfs and checkers. Not that all blacks and checkers are bad, because I got a few birds from a friend that has mostly balck and checkers and I was greatfut to get them. The country sure seems a bit smaller with computers! I don't know Scott Rice But I have had people ask me if I know him? He was here in Sacramento before I had rollers ( 3 years now ) tell that to John that New guys are still watching his videos and enjoying them. I guess I was just mainly trying to say stick with the pretty colors that Bill Pensom had, he had plenty of color in his loft. I have a video of his birds when he lived here in California too. He had alot of whites, grizzle, mealy bar, dunns, badges, checks, reds and a few checkers too. There is plenty of combinations to have nice looking birds, infact I think the prettyest bird is blue bar. If pigoens weren't so common the bird wathcers would be watching them instead of all the other rare birds. Rare birds now that is what to watch out for right! buyer beware of rare colors. Anyway you guys in Portsmouth OH come by and visit anytime and I'll set you up as a local judge for a Sacramento fly and buy you lunch. I sure enjoyed the 6 hrs 46 minute tape and the 5 hour tape of nothing but birmingham rollers and guys who love the hobby. Bill Crider
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Alan Bliven
58 posts
Jan 24, 2005
12:58 AM
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My favorite color is a blue bar with some white markings. A common roller color but very nice and it looks like a roller.
If one wants to work with rare colors and still have a performing bird, why fool with rollers? The Catalonian Tumbler looks just like a roller and does backwards flips. It is known as the breed with 1000 colors and has some of prettiest ones you'll ever see.
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Alan
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Bluesman
92 posts
Jan 24, 2005
2:48 AM
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Alan;Because the Cat.Tumbler can,t roll like a roller.
You and Bill have said you like Blue Bars.Maybe we can continue and everyone else tell about their favorite color.My favorite is also a Blue Bar Self.I like the light wing shield blue bar not one that has the Dirty factor in it.Why I don,t know unless it goes back to being the first pigeon I had.Visitors coming to look at my rollers and want to know why I have Barn pigeons in with my rollers.LOL.David
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Alan Bliven
59 posts
Jan 24, 2005
10:39 AM
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Yeah, that's true. But from what I understand many of the breeders of color rollers don't fly their birds because of the fear of hawks. I don't understand how one can properly breed for performance without flying the birds and selecting the stock from the air?
My point being about the Cat Tumblers is this. Don't this type of breeding then reduce the roll in the strain even after one generation? So, regardless of whether or not the birds have a great family name tagged to them, the roll will be compromised after even one generation, let alone multiple generations without selective breeding from the air.
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Alan
Last Edited by Alan Bliven on Jan 24, 2005 10:40 AM
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Bluesman
97 posts
Jan 24, 2005
11:10 AM
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Alan.I don,t know of any that don,t fly their birds that are serious about the roll.I feed more birds to hawks each year than a lot of fellows raise.I don,t cross breeds either unless my birds are not classified as Birmingham's.And you are 100% right.They can not be advanced if they are not flown in the air and bred again based on their performance.And if done otherwise are just what they started out to be.A Crossbreed.However if that same bird was flown and bred back and each generation after was selected for the roll it would soon become a pure roller again.If the roll didn,t advance then you still have crossbreeds.
James Turner told me he spent ELEVEN years getting the Opal Whitebar's to where he was satisfied with the roll.If you ever get to see his birds fly you will see why he is in the NBRC Hall of Fame.Few people have this kind of dedication.David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Jan 24, 2005 11:18 AM
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Alan Bliven
60 posts
Jan 24, 2005
12:53 PM
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Interesting. Are his Opal Whitebar's now competitive in major flying competitions?
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