Mother lode lofts
396 posts
Jan 24, 2005
3:43 PM
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Dave I'm trying to make heads or tails out of your "I got proof" post due to some pictures out of "Winners with Spinners". You mention several Engish fanciers and mealys. I'm kind of confused, are these the "pink" bars that you were refering to ?? Barless ? are you looking at a Blue Oddside ?
Dave you made mention of White Bars and breeding the crosses back until they are pure again (hmmm now were getting some where LOL ) Do you think that you can keep the color,factor or what have you and not drag anything else along ?
Although some have brought these birds a long way there is there a reason that there have never been a kit of only these birds do well ? The guys that play with color that have done well normally only have a handful of these birds in those kits. Why is that ? just wondering
My hat is off to "all" Hall of Famers,every last one of them. But it doesn't have anything to do with the birds. It is reward them for thier hard work and service to the NBRC.
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Bluesman
102 posts
Jan 24, 2005
4:37 PM
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Scott.This laptop I am working on is so slow that by the time I get to where I can post I forget what the question was.LOL
On the Barless.Mongrel Lofts had said there was no barless in Birminghams.The Mealys that I listed were all Barless.He also said he was there when the birds were imported from Ollie Harris and some others and they never had it in their birds.But there was the pic of one owned & bred by Ollie Harris.On the Pink Bar I was wondering what caused the pink bar.I have my thoughts.
On the color thing.My only argument is that color has nothing to do with the roll.The ro gene is what does the roll.
On the Hall of Fame.Thanks for setting me straight on that.I thought it was because of their birds.
I think that was everything.If not we will catch up later.LOL. David
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Flying Roller
31 posts
Jan 24, 2005
4:43 PM
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Where does the opal/white bar gene come from? As a new guy I bought some from a breeder which do very little in the sky other than flying high with very little roll. He said he got the original colors from Joe Quinn way back when and bred them ot his Pensom/Plona birds. Was I misled? The dark colored birds I got from him seem to roll more. I got so discouraged last year that I'm thinking of packing it in until I find an honest fancier.So? about those opals?
Terry
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Mother lode lofts
400 posts
Jan 24, 2005
6:56 PM
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Dave they use some different color terms in the UK ,Mealy being one of them. Here we call a redbar Mealy, there I believe that it is the Ash Reds that they term as Mealys. I don't have the book but I know that the termonoligy is different between here and there on the Mealys. Do color breeders have barless redbars ? Seen it with blueBars with you guys.
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Mother lode lofts
404 posts
Jan 25, 2005
6:20 AM
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Ok a couple of questions.... When you sell a Barless do they get a discount because the bars are missing ? Where did the bars go ? plus if they want the bars back is the use of a magic marker acceptable ? What is a khaki ??
Last Edited by on Jun 04, 2007 8:25 PM
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Bluesman
112 posts
Jan 25, 2005
8:17 AM
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Actually they are like Fat Free items in a grocery store.They cost more.
If they want the bars back then they have to buy a blue bar.
Khaki is the Dilute of Brown. David
Missed one.Where do the bars go.I will let that one to the ones that are good in Genetics to answer like Bob or Brian.Come on Brian;Quit smiling and get in here.LOL
Last Edited by Bluesman on Jan 25, 2005 8:23 AM
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Phantom1
30 posts
Jan 25, 2005
8:24 AM
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Probably not Alan, as there are a lot of people that would cull those birds out - it would clash too much with their blue-checks and blue-bars. Couldn't have that now could we....
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J_Star
156 posts
Jan 25, 2005
8:25 AM
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The bars most likely got washed out when they took their weekly bath (lol).
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jan 25, 2005 8:26 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
367 posts
Jan 25, 2005
9:11 AM
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Okay, this is the only time I'll let you drag me into one of these matches..lol. And only because Scott is a good friend of mine will I say the following to maybe help him understand what barless really is.
Scott...barless is one of the basic pattern markings, like bar or check. The order of dominance begins with Velvet, T-pattern, Check (dark to light), Bar and Barless. All of the above are in pretty much all breeds of pigeons in some form or fashion. Breeding for barless is the same if you had a bunch of blue checkers and were breeding for a blue bar. No different, just one step of the pattern ladder is all. Breeding for a barless is, for the most part, different than breeding for any "odd" or different color as it can be done with birds that quite possibly truly were never outcrossed. I remember seeing barless rollers in the late 70s. At any rate, it is a rather simple process. To help you or anyone else understand it, if all your birds were red checks and you wanted some blue checks to break up the monotany, you would need to get, find or breed to create a red check cock carrying blue, you know, that bird that most of us have out there in our lofts. Any way, you have to breed and select in such a way that you spread the blue gene around in the stock loft so you up your percentages of getting more blues. Same thing goes for recessive red which is such a highly prized color commodity in some lofts. You select for it, then spread it around. Well the same pretty much goes for barless too. Barless was, to my knowledge, as much there in the roller breed as recessive red and checker were.
The rules are simple fellas. If you want maximum performance, make your matings based solely on maximum performance and not one drop of consideration for color.
If you want both, then pick your favorite because one element will suffer.
Doing right and doing wrong is an ethics decision only each individual can measure. By the way, for the new guys, you will learn more from trying things and making mistakes than you ever will from sitting here reading our posts. That is a fact.
Brian.
Last Edited by on Jun 04, 2007 8:26 PM
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Mother lode lofts
407 posts
Jan 25, 2005
9:40 AM
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Thanks Brian and good post. And very sound advise in that last sentence, I might add also allways be honest with yourself on where "your" own birds are.
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Bluesman
115 posts
Jan 25, 2005
10:13 AM
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Alan.I don,t know.I was fortunate to be able to get one of his Whitebar Cocks.I have yet to raise another whitebar like him.However I have several of his young I am flying out and they made it to my holdover kits.The roll is there.David
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Mount Airy Lofts
36 posts
Jan 25, 2005
11:06 PM
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Hi David,
I love colors too, just like another roller fancier that's why we took up the breed. The breed (remember we are talking about a established breed here) is filled with colors.
David you mentioned about Winners with Spinners... since I'm the librarian officer for my local Roller Club, I'll pull the book out and try to answer your question.
David says "Barless Rollers;Mealy Cock bred & owned by Graham Dexter"
- David that bird that you are mentioning is a Ash Lavender. Do you know what a Lavender is? If not, you need to do alittle homework because all it is, spread on ash red. Mr. Dexter description isn't totally correct there. I'm not sure why he choose to call it what it is and not the correct term 'Lavender' but I'm notice alot of English Roller fanciers do this then Americans. They are just calling it what it is. Because the Lavender is not showing any bars, it is barless. This is not the same BARLESS factor we see in the RARE color lofts. You are talking oranges, when they are simply just apples. Two whole different things here my friend.
David says "Mealy hen bred & owned by John Thompson"
- I was looking all over for this bird. I think you are referring to the Barless Mealy Hen bred and owned by John Thompson. If so, again it is just a normal Lavender. Spread with Ash Red. The term Barless is just tagged to that bird because of the spread hiding it's bar or check pattern, you can't see it so it's barless.
David says "Mealy hen bred by the late Ollie Harris(where did I hear that name before)"
- Again I looked all over for this bird. You must mean HSRC-78-795 Barless Meally Hen bred by Ollie Harris. If so, just like both birds mentioned above... 'Lavender'!
David says "What about a Dark Chequer Bald Crested Cock bred by Les Bezance?It sure couldn,t be a Birmingham."
- I too had question this crest stuff in the Birmingham Roller. But after doing alittle study, found that even in the old days, crested birds were bred of Imports. A example of this can be found in Thomas H. Hatcher's 'The last of the Greats and the next generation' book. Altho I would question the crested birds being bred today as being Birmingham Rollers. I'm not saying there aren't any pure crested Birmingham Rollers left. I'll be weary if someone claims to have outstanding crested birds and only sell unproven or unflown birds to you. I'm not sure if you were trying to be funny with the phase "It sure couldn,t be a Birmingham." or serious but the history is there. Dig alittle deeper.
David says "What am I not seeing here?Am I that stupid that I can,t see the difference."
- seeing and being able to correctly interpret what you are seeing seems to be the problem here David. If you really want to know your colors and different patterns, the best place is to go visit a veteran color breeder. He or she will be able to correctly term every color you need to know to a dime. Altho don't count against someone who just calls a color for what it is... take for example, in the old days, a bird that was dun in color was call a dun. The genetically correct name for this bird now isn't a dun but a Ash RED with spread. The color Dun now is not the same color Dun back in the days when people just called it what it was. I did this for many years and still do it sometimes. Another example is the Lavender. Way back in the days, people use to call these guys silvers. To complicate it even more, silvers is also use to tag Red Bars. The genetically correct term used for silver now is not the same term used for the colors back when...
They simply didn't know any genetically correct term then. You have to remember that these guys that had these birds were your average joes that worked in the smoke stack factorys/etc. They are simple people with simple names. There are so many different genetic terms now then it will take you a long, long time to correctly figure out what is what even if you went into that field (color breeding).
More about the photos in the Winners with Spinners book...
there is a Meally Badge Hen bred and owned by George Mason band # NEFRS-86-13LGD. Don't tell me that you think Meally is a RARE color too. All this bird is, is a RED BAR.
there is a Red Grizzle - Pink Barred Cock band # MPRC-88-2727. Here again... not a RARE color. This is simply just a light RED GRIZZLE BAR.
Nothing wrong with any of those colors in the book David. Some of the names used to identify the color isn't genetically correct.
David, I think you need to do your research in what the RARE colors are?
Hope that hopes fill in the blanks for your Winners with Spinners question.
Thor
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Jan 25, 2005 11:09 PM
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Slobberknocker
24 posts
Jan 26, 2005
6:56 AM
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Thor,
Good post and you are absolutely right. However, think of this. Many "old-timers" and even many of today's breeders do not know the many colors of Pigeons so they call them something that the bird is not. I think part of the problem with this debate is that those who fly for the sake of winning do not care what color their birds are as long as they do what they are supposed to do in the air. Some of these guys may have so-called rare colors in their loft, they just don't know what they are looking at. I see this all the time on many other breeds as well.
Bob
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Mongrel lofts
53 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:29 AM
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OK David,
So those that have the winners with spinners book, have went and looked at your examples.. What they found is exactly what we have been saying about the Mongrel rare color breeders all along.. They use confussion and smoke screen to confuse the new comer, and unaware.. Thanks David for showing just how the Mongrel smoke screen works!!
Slobberknocker, this post of yours below, is just wishful thinking.. The Birmingham roll flyers know what patterns factors and colors they have in their lofts.. Their were not guys in any day, sending toy stencil in birmingham rollers and just not knowing what it was? If you have a bird that carries toy stencil or pencil or Milky, you have a mongrel, and the Birmingham roller breeders know it..
I want to thank both you guys for helping inlighten the new comer, to what the truth is about cross breeding and rare colors,, although you have done your best, to keep them unaware... Mongrel Lofts
Thor,
Good post and you are absolutely right. However, think of this. Many "old-timers" and even many of today's breeders do not know the many colors of Pigeons so they call them something that the bird is not. I think part of the problem with this debate is that those who fly for the sake of winning do not care what color their birds are as long as they do what they are supposed to do in the air. Some of these guys may have so-called rare colors in their loft, they just don't know what they are looking at. I see this all the time on many other breeds as well.
Bob
Last Edited by Mongrel lofts on Jan 26, 2005 12:55 PM
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Bluesman
121 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:31 AM
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Thor.Please save me a lot of time trying to find out what are considered RARE COLORs and tell me what they are??
Barless was brought up because Mongrel Lofts said it didn,t exist in Birmingham Rollers.So according to what we have established is that the English people are saying one thing and not knowing what they are talking about.So what else did they say that they didn,t know what they were talking about.Was Tom Monson's article on the history of the roller true or just part true?All I go on is what is written by someone else.If what they say is not true I have no way of doing research that I know is true.David
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Slobberknocker
28 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:40 AM
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Mongrel Lofts,
The only thing that has been proven through the posts is just how disrespectful you really are. Nowhere in my posts did I say anything about Milky, Toy Stencil, or any other specific color. I don't even know where this whole Toy Stencil thing comes in. That color does not exist in the Roller to my knowledge. Nobody has made any claims in reference to any of the colors that you mention.
I must say that I find it funny how you throw the word "mongrel" around when decribing birds you know less than nothing about and yet you name your loft after the single thing you so despise. There are many here who do not agree with breeding the so-called colored birds, but they are 100 times more respectful about their opinions.
Sounds like you have a lot of anger in you. Did your birds get beat at some local fly by a kit of cross-bred mongrels?
Bob
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Phantom1
35 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:46 AM
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Mongrel Breeder - I have a question for you. You seem to write a lot about "colored birds". Do you really know what you're talking about? You claim that milky is a mongrel. That pencil is a mongrel. Are there any other colors that would you like to label as a mongrel while you're at it? How about Grizzle? No wait, I've got one better - WHITE! If you really know about genetics, how about you sit down, gather your thoughts, and give some objective feedback for those coming here for advice on things, rather than force feeding some BS into their minds about something you clearly don't know about - nor are you in the position to provide anyone guidance. Enjoy...
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
368 posts
Jan 26, 2005
1:27 PM
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For the record Thor, spread ash red and red bar barless are identical in expression, excluding any modifiers such as smokey or sooty which would darken the base color a bit. If I were to put both in front of you, you would not be able to guess which one was which.
Bob, I know of one guy who has frill stencil, which includes toy stencil, in his rollers. He paints the birds and doesn't fly them, they are for his own creative enjoyment only, but a few dollars will get you or anyone one if they asked.
Scott, you are wrong about most flyers knowing colors. I know of very few who can accurately tell me or anyone who asks about the correct genetic color of his birds. I find it interesting sometimes when the guys have no idea what their birds are genetically, but they have a whole range of terms for them because of what they look like. One very respected roller man asked the other day what it meant when a blue checker had reddish color in his flights. A veteran fancier should know this right? Nope, wasn't aware that even after 30 years with the birds and paying attention to how they bred that the color he was discribing was a kite because of the kite bronze being expressed do to one dose of recessive red being carried. Just some thoughts from that outside...lol
Brian.
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Phantom1
43 posts
Jan 26, 2005
1:32 PM
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Brian, thank you for addressing the Barless issue. I missed it, but am appreciative that you cleared it up.
Thor, if you'd like to see a picture of a true Barless Mealy, I'll be glad to send you one.
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Cliff
33 posts
Jan 26, 2005
1:37 PM
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Brian, The indigo birds that I have are T-pattern blue checks with bronzing in the feather. Is this also a dose of recessive red? Or is indigo a separate specific color modifying gene? Cliff
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
370 posts
Jan 26, 2005
2:25 PM
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No problem Eric.
Cliff, indigo is different than kite bronze. In fact they both can be expressed together at the same time. Indigos are termed for what they do to the blue base, thus the name indigo blue, but the reddish coloring is what most usually consider the "indigo" portion of the color. A good colored indigo checker or non-spread should have some bronzing in the flights as well as the shield area. A kite bronzed roller is indicative of carrying one dose of recessive red and will also show some bronzing in the flights and often on the sheild two. So what is the difference? Indigos show NO TAIL BAR. At best there might be a wavy grayish colored tail bar. Kite bronze blue birds will show a tail bar which will be black just like if it had no kite bronze showing. Hope this helps Cliff.
Brian.
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Mount Airy Lofts
37 posts
Jan 26, 2005
3:12 PM
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Hi David,
Sorry I can't tell you what the all RARE colors are. They are too RARE that I don't have any in my stock birds. (grin) Reckon this family has been line bred and inbred for over 30 years and then by Stan Plona for another 20 plus years all the way back to the imports. If it had these factors in it in the first place, I would think it would of popped up by now. The birds I have are Sons/Daughters/GrandSons/GrandDaughters off birds plucked out of Stan Plona's loft. Most were acquired from Plona before Plona death but some of the best came during Plona's funeral. David Kolwaski and Gail B. Peterson had their picking from Stan's birds. If you don't know who these guys are, it's not hard to find out. Stan Plona made a note to leave certain birds to Kolwaski but to my knowledge, Kolwaski and Peterson also got first diggs on what ever Plona had. Two years ago, I also aquired a few Tom Stone banded birds that are first generation off some of the cream Stan Plona had that Tom Stone had aquired from Plona. Since breeding these Stone birds, I have not seen any RARE color pop up yet also.
If these RARE colors were in my family, I don't think it would take for more then 2 matings back into the original birds for it to show would it.
Can anyone tell me how many more generations will I have to mate this family to see a Indigo or Opal or of that nature if it was in our birds from the here go? Remeber, the debate is that it was in our birds from the first imports.
Yo Eric, no thanks for the photo of a Barless. I was just answering David's question about the Winners with Spinners photos. If you would like to see which ones we are talking about, let me know and I'll send them over. Those birds photoed are not consider RARE colors. The barless mentioned were just Lavenders. The Pink Bar was just a Light Red Grizzle Bar.
I don't know that much about genetic terms but know enough to indentify one if it pops up in my birds. I also am fimilar enough that if a Blue Check pops up from Two Blue Bar mating that it's not the cock's progency. Some goes if I get a Ash Red from Two blue bars.
I know of a few fellow here who are color breeders. Most don't even fly out their birds but there are acouple who do. I saw my first Deroy last year. I say my first spread Almond this year. I saw my first REAL dun last year. I can see my first what ever RARE stuff in the lofts of these guys if I wanted too. Thanks for the offer tho.
One thing I will give you guys credit about is that if you put two Blue Checks infront of me and say that one is carrying Indigo, the other isn't... I wouldn't be able to tell which is. My buddy I raise birds with likes this color stuff. He doesn't care if the bird is not flown out or not just as long as it has the desired color factor. Funny how after one generation, 2 of the three pairs threw 99% roll downs. The last pair threw birds that only tumbled. Anywho, he bred a dandy little blue check w/f hen this year that is a roll down. Looking at it, I would of thought it wasn't from the Indigo line of birds but he assured me it was. Looked exactly like your average joe Blue Check. The moral of this story is... I bet if I take this Roll Down Blue Check hiding Indigo and mate it to a black roller in my family that it will produce the indigo gene. If not in the first generation, it will if I take a son of this mating and mate it back to the Roll Down Blue Check hen.
Why's that, that's because the gene is in there. You can't hide something like that can you?
Help me understand the process of how these colors got into this breed if it is only found in select few lofts and not every where. I bet that atleast one line in your birs heritage can be trace back to the imports. Where do you think the spin comes from?
I find these color debates quite interesting... let me hear your opinion.
Thor
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Jan 26, 2005 3:19 PM
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Slobberknocker
36 posts
Jan 26, 2005
3:38 PM
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Thor,
First off, two Blue Bars will not produce Blue Checks. Second, Blue Check cannot "carry" Indigo or Opal. the bird either is Opal or is Indigo. And Third, two Blues cannot produce Ash Red. These things I have mentioned are genetically impossible. However, recessive Opal can look like Ash Red so, if you are getting "Ash Red" out of two Blues, looks like you got yourself a "RARE" color.
Looks like you might just live in a glass house. Careful with those rocks.
Bob
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
371 posts
Jan 26, 2005
4:02 PM
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Thor, indigo is a partial dominant, which means it can be expressed on either sex and can only be expressed with the presense of the indigo color gene. A bird cannot carry indigo. If you mate a black to an andalusian(indigo spread blue) or a blue check to an indigo check, the resulting blue check offspring or black offspring do not carry indigo and therefore you will never get an indigo from them..ever..unless you missread the expression.
By the way Bob and Thor, I can recall two instances where fact defied genetic possibility. One is a friend of mine's lofts where he only breeds from individuals. Two years ago he popped a blue check from two blue bars on the second round of that mating. Another instance which I read is not completely out of the question is a racing homer enthusiast who popped several ash red birds from two blues, also bred in an individual. The reason that I don't think this last example is completely out of the question is because the base color for all pigeons is blue, from hence all colors are born, yet at some point a blue pigeon had to produce ash red which is dominant to blue for us to have it in our pigeons. We tend to forget that.
BMC
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Mount Airy Lofts
38 posts
Jan 26, 2005
4:18 PM
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Hi Bob,
I don't know what I wrote but I thought I said that if a Blue Check came out from a matings of two Blue Bars then there must of been something fishy and it is impossible for it to be the Cock's progency. I didn't say it's not the Hen's progency here because the hen did lay it. I said it is impossible for the Blue check youngster to be out of it's Blue Bar father. Same goes if the youngster was a Red Check and the parents were Blue bars.
Did I not make this clear. Hopefully this time I did.
About the Blue Check roll down (which is a Hen) being out of a Andulusion (a color line) x Black Badge (out of a pure family to bring in the roll). Are you telling me that this Blue check will not be able to pass on the Indigo gene? This Blue Check roll down hen is identical to any other Blue Check carrying Bronze.
I didn't say this bird was carrying Opal... If this Blue Check was carrying opal, it would be apparent wouldn't it -in one form or another. All the Blue Bar's bred from my buddy's opal line had faded markings on their tails. You can clearly tell they had opal in their make up and can tell it from a regular Blue Bar. Don't ask me to use the genetically correct term for these markings. I'm not genetic expert.
About living in a class house, I suppose I am if you are referring to not knowing the difference of some genetic links... like dominate opal vs. rec. opal. I'm learning all I can from visiting as many top fliers here as posssible. Did I visit these lofts because I wanted to learn about correct genetic terms... not at all. I visit as many fliers as possible to learn more about what to look for in the performance of a bird. I wouldn't term anyone who doesn't know anything about the correct genetic terms as living in a class house. I would if all you did was stayed in your own back yard. If they don't support the top fliers in their area by standing under their kits, how would you know what to look for in the performance. How are we able to compare our stocks to? Colors is all I can compare in my loft. This is living in a glass house in my mind. Colors doesn't mean anything thing to me in this breed.
Thor
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Jan 26, 2005 4:31 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
373 posts
Jan 26, 2005
4:27 PM
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Thor wrote--About the Blue Check roll down (which is a Hen) being out of a Andulusion (a color line) x Black Badge (out of a pure family to bring in the roll). Are you telling me that this Blue check will not be able to pass on the Indigo gene? This Blue Check roll down hen is identical to any other Blue Check carrying Bronze.
The answer is NO. A hen is what she visually is, with the exceptions of recessive genes and pattern genes (ie, blue check carrying bar). If you do not get any andalusians or indigo bronze birds from that mating, all non-indigo expressing offspring WILL NOT CARRY INDIGO. Indigo cannot be carried. Thuse,if you mated this hen to any non indigo bird, you will not get any indigos..ever!
Now, since we can't see this bird and you mentioned that you feel she is identical to any other blue check carrying bronze, I assume you make that decision based on seeing some bronzing on her somewhere? Most likely in the shield or flights? If so, being out of a indigo, there is a good likelyhood she could be an indigo check, but without seeing what you are seeing, it is impossible to make that determination. Keep in mind that indigo and kite bronze are two totally different genes. If there is recessive red in the background of those birds you mentioned, she could just be a dull kite bronze blue check as well.
Brian
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Phantom1
44 posts
Jan 26, 2005
4:30 PM
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Thor, the same applies with Dominant Opal as does with Indigo. Recessive Opal, however, can be carried, but not expressed.
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Mount Airy Lofts
39 posts
Jan 26, 2005
4:48 PM
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Hi BMC,
I can't say what that Blue Check roll down was. It killed itself. In the form of Indigo check or not. As I don't raise this color stuff in my birds so have no idea but call it what I see. A blue check showing bronzing on her wing shield was what I called it. I tired lifting her wings up to see if I can see indigo feathers underneath but non that I can tell. See, I'm no expert in these factor so I can't help you guys out. Even if there was, I probably would of missed it.
It's wierd hearing from you guys that this hen wouldn't be able to produce Indigo down the road. I thought Indigo was a dominate gene. Meaning hens and cocks are capable of carrying it. Just shows you how much I know about these factors.
One Thing I do know is that it has non of these factors has popped up in my stock ever. I asked the guy who my birds are from if he had ever seen any of these RARE factors pop up since he recieved his birds from Stan Plona. He said, heck, this line of birds is very colorful. You can get every color you will ever want from this family. He mentioned he was bred pure whites, Lavenders, Blues, Ash Reds, Blacks, White Ticks, Red Ticks, Badges, Balds, Checkers, but never has a opal, indigo, yellow, almond, etc. popped up. All this from a guy who majored in Genetics and is a University Teacher.
BMC, I see you are a good fancier and have both birds color and the what I call "real deal". Let me put you on the line since I know you stand on both sides of this... have you ever bred a RARE color off your 'real deals'? I mean, most color breeders state that the 'real deals' come from the same source as their birds... what makes the color line so special that it is located within their geneotype only.
Thor
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
375 posts
Jan 26, 2005
5:09 PM
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Hey Thor. I do sort of straddle the fence so to speak for a variety of reasons, most notably because I try to be open minded. I am also hardcore with my show breeds which demands a steadfast knowledge of genetics which I hope is always continuing to grow. To answer your question, NO I have never raised an "out of the bounds of normalcy" color from my Real Deals. 95 percent of my rollers are mainstream, either black, ash red, recessive red, blue, tort or pie bald. The only exception is the few andalusians I have which are part of a side family I am working on, and believe it or not, they make up a good percentage of the birds that make my better teams, not neccessarily the andalusians themselves, but the offspring from those matings. What I think what many people read into the suggestions in some of the posts is that their birds produced said colors, when in fact what they are really trying to say is one of two things. One being that all colors came from somewhere in the mighty genetic lineage of pigeons. Every color other than blue is a "pop up" color, similar to parakeets where green is the native original color, all other colors being "pop up" colors that you never see in the true wilds of Australia.
Two being that since it is documented that the BR heritage had a rather mutt beginning, the possiblity is there for unknown colors to suddenly pop up. That doesn't mean it will happen, but it doesn't mean that because we are in the the 21st century that all mutations cease to manifest themselves. Not to take sides, but that is how I view many others interpretation of what is "possible". In my lofts I don't expect anything to "pop up" on the real deal side, but if it did, I like to feel I have an understanding of the possibilities and with some research could hopefully discover the reasoning behind it. Hope I answered your question adequately.
Brian.
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Bluesman
129 posts
Jan 26, 2005
5:27 PM
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Scott you said that the Hall of Fame had nothing to do with the birds that it was the work they did for the NBRC.
I was studying the By Laws of NBRC and it said that this was given to someone who did substantial contributions to the Breeding,Flying and Judging of the Birmingham Rollers.It didn,t say anything about doing work for NBRC?? David
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Mother lode lofts
425 posts
Jan 26, 2005
6:20 PM
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Dave it is as I told you, but if the bylaws say one thing they are doing another and they will tell you it is for service for the NBRC. The members nominate who they desire and then it is voted in by those that are allready in the Hall of Fame (that are living of coarse). Presidents allways get in, in my mind they deserve it. Not all there were good fliers and breeders.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 26, 2005 6:29 PM
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Bluesman
133 posts
Jan 26, 2005
6:32 PM
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O.K. Thanks Scott.David
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Mother lode lofts
429 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:12 PM
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Dave the "master flier" takes care of the performance end would be thier thought I assume
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 26, 2005 7:13 PM
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Mount Airy Lofts
41 posts
Jan 27, 2005
10:32 PM
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Hi BMC Brian,
I too like to keep an open mind, that's why I try to learn about this color stuff from the veteran fliers here who has introduced it to their family of birds which didn't carry it before. I don't see this RARE color stuff popping up in my birds, if it did, someone must of slipped a egg into their nest from one of my buddy's Color projects (grin). I breed out of Individual pens myself so nothing like this could happen. The only time I can see a RARE color bird popping out of the 'REAL DEALS' is if they were bred in a open loft setting - in with some RARE color stuff. Then, it is a crap shot of whois the father.
Thanks for your post... good post!
Thor
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Bird man
3 posts
Nov 03, 2007
4:35 PM
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I would really be happy ,if i could get some birmingham any fast flying and depp rollig rollers. i want tham in blue collor njihaha@hotmail.com Toronto.
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Electric-man
784 posts
Nov 03, 2007
4:59 PM
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Birdman, Tony is the only one who can sell you birds here on this sight! This is his site and it is his buisness selling birds and products! Check his line of birds out, he has great birds and he will be glad to help you get started! He has a line of blues that are awesome!
I will leave your post up with your email address, in case someone wants to talk to you offline! Might want to check out the posting policy if you haven't! It will better explain the rules here!
Glad your with us and hope your not offended, but this is just the respect that we show Tony for creating this great roller site for all of us to share!
Thanks
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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J_Star
1234 posts
Nov 03, 2007
5:50 PM
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Val, it is very difficult to ship birds across the border. Most likely he needs to connect with someone form his part of country.
Jay Alnimer
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Electric-man
785 posts
Nov 03, 2007
5:58 PM
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My bad!
Didn't catch the Toronto part!
Guess I'm a little too quick with my "moderators knife" tonight! LOL
Thanks Jay!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
Last Edited by on Nov 03, 2007 6:01 PM
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FireBaller916
3 posts
Nov 04, 2007
11:29 AM
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Can we all just get along here...Color birds and solid color birds what the heck...They all roll just as good...Just enjoy what yours birds do...Chai...
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Santandercol
1598 posts
Nov 04, 2007
6:39 PM
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Birdman,
There is a Roller Club out there in T.O. area.If you look back at some of the old posts on this site,find a post from Stan Arnold his user-name is "Starfire".He is in Ontario and may be able to help you out.Alot of them guys out there have Barrett birds and lots of colours so may not have blue barred birds if you can't find any in the east e-mail me at Click on my user name to get my e-mail address something is wrong with this thing.I have some blue barred Monty Neible strain Birmies.I'm on the west coast.----------
Kelly
Last Edited by on Nov 04, 2007 6:46 PM
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