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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Throw Backs or Other Defects( Example Crest)
Throw Backs or Other Defects( Example Crest)
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C.J.
4 posts
Nov 27, 2004
6:22 AM
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Here is a thought that has come to me. How many people had something show up in there birds that they didn't know was there or breed for i.e. Crest on back of heads. The reason I ask is there was a discussion on crest showing up on the back of some birds heads. I have had this show up in my loft awhile back and was wondering if this or any other kinds throw backs from generations ago when the birds were developed that has shown up in other fanciers lofts. I know of two other lofts in Ontario that has had this show up. It is interesting because it only showed up when I mated two specific birds to one another. I can trace these birds families back for 70 years or more. They have been handed down without any cross breeding out. I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has had this or something different. Just my two cents . C.J.
Last Edited by C.J. on Nov 27, 2004 6:25 AM
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Mongrel lofts
22 posts
Nov 27, 2004
8:01 AM
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Hey CJ,
I have a family of Pensom based birds I have been breeding since 1984.. They are very inbred these days, as I started with only a few birds in the beginning.. I have inbred many generations, the only oddity I have ran into, is the webbing between the toes.. Like crest it is a simple recessive gene, and any time you mate two birds up, carrying the gene, you might get one.. I hate the damn things and try hard to eliminate the gene, but like all recessive genes, man are they good at hiding!! LOL
Sad thing is, many of the birds with an extended web between the toes, are very good rollers.. These are kit birds for life, or until their use is no longer needed.. I'm not about breeding from the freaks and oddities.. I guess if we believe in evolution, one day, we will hatch a flying turtle out of one or our roller eggs.. Now there is a web page for Stan,, LOL I want the exceptional rollers, not the exception!
I have heard of guys breeding 14 tail feathers in their rollers, like the oriental roller,, I think these usually will have the almond gene in the back ground,, but can't prove that..
Wonder how many that have a pure family of rollers, really get many throw backs to some old breed,, Its a good question CJ..I doubt many, Once a breed is established for over a 100 years like the Birmingham roller, not likely you get many oddities.. Maybe thats why they call them odd? LOL I mean, you ever see a guy breeding pure German shepherds, and one of the pups in a litter, is a poodle?? I think your more likely to get a defect, like my web toes, than you are a throw back to another breed.. Just my opinion,, Mongrel Lofts
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C.J.
5 posts
Nov 27, 2004
9:48 AM
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Hey mongrel if yu have to have a little issue I feel webbed feet are a very basic one. Now did you develop this breed lol or was it Pensom? I don't get many throw backs but you never know what will happen when you do new pairings. If something comes out of the wood work I stop that pairing or remove the birds from the breeding program. Maybe I will devote a sight to them lol. Thanks for the post Montgrel. Just my two cents C.J.
Last Edited by C.J. on Nov 27, 2004 9:49 AM
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Bill
5 posts
Nov 28, 2004
6:45 PM
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C.J. I live in Northern Calif. and I know of two people who had a crest show up in some rollers. One man culled the crest bird from fear it may have had something in it that was not a Birmingham roller from the past.
I do think you can have a hidden gene or genetic trate that is hidden and with the right mate, boom it will show up. Maybe I am wishfull thinking, but I also think you can have an outstanding bird pop up from Pensoms old line from the past and use it for a foundation bird. You wont get a poodle from a shepperd, but you can get a throw back to what the shepperds were out of. I've seen throw backs from the Jack Russel terriors and other dog breeds. There is too much in these rollers to understand it all, but wonderfully we are striving for the champion roller or kit of close champs and that is easier to understand by what we see in the air, ground and around town. I read earlier that crests were introduced out side of Pensom birds but I for one think they (crests) can come out of the right combination pairs in the most inbred family if you had the right two paired. This right combination is not seen in the birds and so as it is, it is also hard to find the right combination to have click pairs in all our breeders. I would not try and develop anything out of the ordinary in rollers myself. I have groused and clean leg birds and once in a while I get one with alot of feathers on the feet, even the toes with a few larger feathers than I would like. I just ignore them for now and concentrate on performance and hope all will work out in the long run. Bill
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J_Star
95 posts
Dec 01, 2004
4:47 AM
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All,
In my opinion, I don't feel that crested rollers are defect or throw-back. If it can do the job just fine, then it is a keeper. Same for groosed legged or odd eyes or bull eyes rollers. I thought that all flyers say the color or the physical appearance don't matter if the bird got the goods.
Jay
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RodB
10 posts
Dec 01, 2004
2:09 PM
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Hey Mongrel , I got the web toes on a few of my Niebel family of birds also , I thought Monty must have been experimenting with some ducks to get a wet weather pigeon ;)
Rod
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Alan Bliven
27 posts
Dec 01, 2004
4:20 PM
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Why does a crest and grouse legs make a defect when all we are interested in is performance? It doesn't hurt performance does it? Or does the crest and grouse legs resist the wind and make them less aero dynamic? ;)
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Alan
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C.J.
7 posts
Dec 01, 2004
6:36 PM
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Let me point out something. No where in this post did I say don’t keep them. I couldn't care less what you have in your loft. I do agree that if it rolls then go ahead and keep it. If you are short on birds then maybe I would keep it, but I highly doubt it. I would rather introduce a new family than keep the crest gene going, but that is my preference in my loft. You know what that is o.k. because it is my loft, my hobby and my birds. You are welcome to fly and raise what ever you want. No one here said you can't keep it if that is what you want to do. What ever rings your bell. Letting it fly around your loft is your choice. I personally would not have it in my breeding program. The question that was posed was has anyone had a crest or other defects show up in their loft. I apologize if the word defect has upset anyone. What I should have said was other “oddities”. The reason I asked the question is a gentleman on this sight insists that he created the crest on the back of the head. He even has a sight promoting the crest as his creation. I have had it show up in my loft and was wondering if anyone else had. I just feel that if you are breeding specifically for something other than the roll i.e. crests then its not a true “Birmingham” roller, it’s a roller. It is like promoting show rollers as rollers they don’t roll they may have at one time but not anymore. Like you said the roll is the most important thing. If you start concentrating on this crest or getting grouse legs then you are steering away from th objective “the Roll”. Its like breeding for colour who really cares what colour it is as long as it rolls. These crested birds (in my opinion) aren’t Birmingham rollers anymore if and I stress if you are breeding for the crest. If the crest becomes your goal then you leave the sight of the roll. I thought it would be interesting to see if there was anything else that was resurfacing from generations back. J STAR in your post you say that you don’t consider it a throw back then what would you call it. Are you mixing other breeds in your loft to get this crest? If not then what else is it other than a throw back from the beginning. If no new birds are introduced then it is a throw back from generations back how else can you explain it? Not every loft is full of crested rollers or it wouldn’t be the exception but the rule. If it was the norm all Birmingham rollers would have them and it would show up in all young. In my personal experience it only shows up if certain birds that carry the gene from way back are bred to one another, and I would know because I have had it show up in my loft. It doesn’t not show up every day in every mating. I have had one pair in my thirty years that when paired together produced this crest. No one is disputing the fact that it comes from somewhere in the mix but when you say you create it then you better have proof . To my knowledge God created the birds and bees, not man. Its your loft and your hobby I could care less if you filled it with rolling budgies. I even kept a couple of the young birds with the crests for awhile but I didn’t allow them to breed with anything without the crest. The same with the parents. I personally did not want to promote this (in my opinion )throw back. I have enough birds in my loft to choose from for my breeding program I don’t need to carry on this gene. The crest just made it easier to cull the bird. Also Alan no one ever said that the groused leg was a defect. Please read all of the posts including the original. It all comes down to personal preference. If you like groused legs or crests by all means knock yourself out. Your coop, your time, your hobby, I couldn't care less.
Just my two cents.
C.J.
Last Edited by C.J. on Dec 01, 2004 6:38 PM
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Mother lode lofts
312 posts
Dec 01, 2004
8:32 PM
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Never see anything, no strange colors, no crests, nothing, and these birds are inbred more than most.
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Alan Bliven
29 posts
Dec 01, 2004
8:41 PM
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I could be wrong but I believe the the groused legs and crests are mutations that show up and not throw backs to another breed.
On the other hand, I don't see how one can purposely breed for a crest, certain color, muffs or markings without degrading the integrity of the perfomance in the air.
I breed German Shepherd Police dogs and you just can't breed a strain of dog for the show ring, color and for performance. One or all will suffer if you try it. You have to do one or the other or you won't produce a good animal in either.
It's the same with performance birds. If you concentrate on producing color or other mutations, performance will suffer.
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Alan
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Mother lode lofts
313 posts
Dec 01, 2004
9:17 PM
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Allen there are families that have grouse legs, you don't breed for it, it is just there or it isn't. anytime that you breed for "anything" other than roll it's a set back as you brought up. period. As for these few that have had crests pop up. All I can say is hmmmmm
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Dec 01, 2004 9:19 PM
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Alan Bliven
30 posts
Dec 01, 2004
9:36 PM
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Before I go off on a limb by making a mistake, how was the Birmingham Roller created in the first place? What breeds did they cross to get them? I read on two websites they were created by crosses between a performing Oriental Roller and a Russian Crack Tumbler. If true, I know for a fact many Russian Crack Tumblers have muffs and crests. Is it possible for these to be throwbacks to the original crosses? But it seems like a lot of time to be throwing back these genes. I also heard it was between some kind of a muffed English Tumbler X the Oriental Roller?
On the other hand, isn't breeding freak mutations of wild pigeons how man started all these ornaments of crests, muffs, fan tails and so on, even the tumbling ability?
One day a cave man seen one of his pet pigeons had a groused legged squab and the neighbor in the cave next door had one that had groused legs as well, so they bred them together to get groused legged offspring, and the muffed pigeon was born. :)
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Alan
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Steve S.
18 posts
Dec 01, 2004
10:02 PM
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Allen,
There has to be a starting point of a cross breed gene
to get crests on a bird that never had it when it was originated.
I had a girlfriend once that looked like a cockatiel.
The other day I saw a guy setting on a park bench with his hair all spiked up and orange , and as I looked at him he replied:
Hey ole man what you looking at?
I said nothing young man , I just thought you might be my son.
LOL
Steve
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
333 posts
Dec 01, 2004
10:24 PM
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LOL...Good One Steve!!!
A little genetics 101 for those who don't believe that a crest is a throw back. Well, that isn't the term commonly used as the gene for crest, be it peak, half, full, whatever, is recessive. With Recessive genes it takes two copies to be produced, one it gets from the father and one from the mother. Neither of these birds need to show it for a recessive gene can be passed on without expression for generation after generation for decades in some cases before it expressed. Just how it works guys. Some mutation genes seem to have a partial recessive nature, being they act recessive, yet on occasion defy the principals of genetics.
As for the question about a crest popping up in other lofts. I recently was given some bellneck rollers from a good friend who got them from Tom Monson whose father had a hand a creating the family of them he has. He told me they were made from Pensom odd sides and saddles. One of the squeakers my friend gave me has a peak crest. He asked me where in the hell did that come from. I told him I have no idea, but the gene had to be there in both the parents for it to be expressed. Know the Monson's nothing was crossed in to them, just the laws of recessives playing out and finally expressing itself.
Brian.
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J_Star
96 posts
Dec 02, 2004
4:51 AM
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Brian,
Based on what I understand from your post is that crest can pop up at any time when the right mating take place. If it pops up from family of birds that you know the breeder does not dable with mutation, then crest is not somebody's doing to degrade the B. roller breed. I personally do not have any crest in my loft, but I don't mind having a couple that have the goods.
We can discuss this to nowhere, same as of hard and soft colors and other things that flyers like to disagree on. I read all the comments that went back and forth with Starfire, which I kept out of because I disagreed in some parts with both sides, but performance is the bottom line....
Jay
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STARFIRE
91 posts
Dec 02, 2004
11:42 AM
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hey guys;
Im. back.you guys can breed your birds for 100 years and never get a crest.and most of you that say you did are full of crap.I have the only breed of roller with crest and a quality spin that I would put up against any bird one on one.
Stan Arnold
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Alan Bliven
31 posts
Dec 02, 2004
12:10 PM
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Stan, u da man! You sure are talented at livening up a discussion forum :) Welcome back!
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Alan
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
335 posts
Dec 02, 2004
12:31 PM
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Hey Jay, you are sort of right in your description. The key is that the recessive genes have to be present excluding the rare oddity that bends the rules a bit. It doesn't exclude the fact that most of the reasons we see oddities is really because people outcross to different breeds. But features like muffs and crests are an ancient feature that goes back as far as pigeons have been recorded in history, therefore there would and could always be speculation that recessive genes could be there from the start and just not seen until later. If you got your birds from someone you know without a shadow of a doubt never did any strange crossing, it still wouldn't surprise me if you did happen to raise one after continuous breeding a family. It happens, and people can bitch or praise it all day and night. Its a recessive gene, that's it, nothing other than that, no magic tricks nothing out of the ordinary unless one of the breeders of those families admits to crossing. Just so the febel minded Starfire can begin to understand, here is a situation that will blow your mind. I got a yellow bald west from a friend who spent the last 15 years inbreeding the hell out of this family of red and yellow balds. About ten years into the deal he pops out a crest. No big deal and admits that he gets a few each year now. I got two yellow cocks from him. I used one and gave one to another friend to use. Mine never, ever has produced a crest nor have any of his offspring. The one I sent my friend he mated to three different hens of a completely different decent, two of the three based on families created over 20 years with not one crest ever raised from them. This cock produced 9 out of 13 crests that year, on hens whose family has never, ever produced one as neither had those hens until that cock arrived. Two non crested sons off of that cock then went on to produce 2 out of 6 crested young. So what does this prove. It proves that even with several decades of bonafide proof that a family is pure, one odd mating can change the complexity of your entire breeding program. It does not mean that it will happen in every loft, but it is not as uncommon as most people make it out to believe. I just realized a new name for this crested bellneck squeaker that was given to me...Salem's Lot.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Dec 02, 2004 12:34 PM
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Steve S.
19 posts
Dec 02, 2004
4:11 PM
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Brian M.
I too have some of Toms dads bellnecks and have had them for some time.
I never get any crests.
Now I do understand what you have stated about the trowback gene being able to be a res. mutatation.
I know it is possible.
But what is very strange is that of all the people breeding the Pensom based rollers are not getting any in all the lofts I have been to or guys I know.
Just seems mighty strange to me the only ones I have seen are from crosses admitted by the breeders.
And Stan glad to see you posting and upholding your crested rollers.
I do wish you the best with them and I hope they are as good as you say.
If I had them, they would be participating in the big flys.
Later
Steve
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STARFIRE
92 posts
Dec 02, 2004
4:15 PM
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hey Brian :
what are we talking about wests You guys arn''t getting the picture So somebody crossed a crest breed with a west .big deal.its a piece of crap.They have to spin 30 ft strait as an arrow and fast like a bullet to be anything like mine.
Stan Arnold Mine are Pure pensom.
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STARFIRE
93 posts
Dec 02, 2004
4:20 PM
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C.J
there are no other crested birds in ontario .only mine.I live here I know whos got what birds here
Stan Arnold
Last Edited by Guest on Dec 03, 2004 6:10 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
336 posts
Dec 02, 2004
4:58 PM
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Hey Steve. Glad to hear you have some of the Monson Bellnecks. I ended up with three cocks and one hen instead of two pair. I might be hitting you up for a hen or two if you are willing part with one.
As for my comments they are simply to make known the possibilities of recessive genes and how they work. I don't have a dog in this fight. And like yourself, have never seen a loft of rollers that claim tight Pensom background with any crests in it. But stranger things have happened I suppose.
Brian.
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C.J.
8 posts
Dec 02, 2004
5:20 PM
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Stan talking about being full of. There are millions of people who live in Ontario and you are claiming to know all of us fanciers here. There you go again showing your you don't know me or any of my friends in this area. You go shooting your mouth off accusing everyone in Ontario as being crooked. Stan you need to stop and take along look in the mirror. You are accusing everyone mis treating you . Poor Stan everyone is out to get him. Listen guy face it this crest shows up in other places other than your loft. It is just that you are the guy using it to sell your birds. I must congratulate on one thing it is working with some new guys are interested in paying for an oddity. I however don't give two pinches of coon crap about you and this crest. As for creating it God did that. I will give you the credit for exploiting though. You say you will put your birds up against anyone’s yet when Steve S from the states offered to handle your birds for competition against another loft because you challenge everybody, you refuse. There is always an excuse eh Stan. You claim you don’t have enough to send him. But Stan you are the best pigeon raiser in the world surely you would want to prove it to these guys. After all how can we mere mortals compete with a God like you who created the crest and endless other things we aren’t aware of yet. You always have enough birds to sell to some guy for $100 each or to someone who thinks you are a God for creating this crest. Stan if you created this crest how about turning your Godly talents to creating a cure for cancer. McCormick Lofts said it when he said it is a gene. I would fly against you but you and I both know you wouldn’t get a fair deal because all of us Canadians are crooks. Your only choice is to send the birds to the states. Just a suggestion Stan if you are going to send them which I highly doubt you will. Don’t tell anyone that way the CIA doesn’t start a conspiracy against you to lose again. I would love for you to set your birds up against a true serious Birmingham Roller like Motherlode, McCormick, Tony, or even Mongel. Mongrel said it best when he said “I don't have to prove I can fly with the best, I am the best!! Backyard breeding, everyone cheats when they fly me, or I would win, BSer,, sorry but nothing rubs me, like a sore loser who brags he has the best, but can't prove it, cuase everyone will cheat him to be sure he loses.. This guy runs other good men down for an excuse for him not to fly, WOW, UNBELIEVABLE!!! But we have all seen it before and we will see it again.. Just my opinion....Mongrel lofts” I also agree with Motherlode when he said “I wasn't going to step in here but there is too much work and sacrafice by so many not to. And I agree with you mongral. We have a competition that spans 7 countries and accross four continents all judged by one judge committing three months out of his life to make this happen. Not to mention the hard work of countless others to make this HUGE fly happen. Only to have backyard pigeon keepers slam down the integrity of the World Cup. But when it's conveniant this one backyard flier wants to use a couple of little chicken flys for bragging rights of his birds. It is funny how those that like to sell birds and or verbaly brag about how good their birds are don't want to compete with the best in the world as getting thier a$$ stomped just isnt good for sells and or bragging, and it's a whole lot easier to talk up your birds and claim that you are cheated if you compete than to actually let the birds make the reputation for you.” You trash everyone no matter who they are. You claim to know everyone in Ontario which is utter horse crap. We are talking about millions of people. For you guys who don’t know Stan lives near Toronto there are millions of people in his city alone. If you were as good as you say you are then you would be in the world cup judging. If not you are smart enough that you would be working to change the World Cup system. Instead because you yourself know you aren’t good enough so you concoct this all Canadians are crooks story. Stan do us all a favour stop the attacking of everyone who questions you and stick to the joy of this bird helping one another out and enjoying one anothers company. If you want to put your B.S. to good use run for parliament.
But don’t claim to know me cause you don’t, I only associate with pleasant people and this you definitely are not.
Just my Three Cents C.J.
Last Edited by Guest on Dec 03, 2004 6:15 PM
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Alan Bliven
33 posts
Dec 03, 2004
3:14 AM
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Is it possible for someone who has 100 or so mutated rollers (crested, muffed, baldys or colored etc) from a good family to select a few pairs of the best performers out of those 100 and inbred those select pairs and end up in the long run with a good family of mutant rollers?
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Alan
Last Edited by Alan Bliven on Dec 03, 2004 3:17 AM
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J_Star
98 posts
Dec 03, 2004
12:32 PM
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There we go again. This time it's Starfire and C.J. dog fight. Back to "Color Rollers" post, are we going to get this post to beat the 82 posts??
Scott, He is back, but leo is still hiding...(lol)
Jay
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Mother lode lofts
315 posts
Dec 03, 2004
4:37 PM
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kinda hard not to notce Jay LOL
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STARFIRE
95 posts
Dec 03, 2004
4:38 PM
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Hey CJ.
My, My, dont get all bent out of shape.You certainly dont know the guys in Ontario,or you wouldnt say what you say about them.If you lived here and knew what goes on here you would hold your tonge.and you would know theres a lot of fishy stuff going on here.Thats how I know you dont know what your talking about,because everybody here knows what goes on.Whatever Turn you on .Say what you like,the guys here know its not like you say==Stan Arnold=
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
186 posts
Dec 03, 2004
6:38 PM
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I am wondering...a mutation is generally believed by evolutionists to be an improvement. It has to do with changes to the DNA for the betterment of the species.
So, following this logic then, the crest is either an improvement to the Birmingham Roller in which case we all have inferior birds or merely a previous trait that existed in one or more of the original crossings???
So far as I know, no one has observed a mutation that did anything useful but kill or make life harder for the poor creature in which the "mutation" occurred.
My question then is this: "how is this crest an improvement to the Birmingham Roller"?
Without an adequate answer, I'm afraid the crest is merely a trait already present and brought to the fore by certain combinations of the good ole gene pool and then selected for in breeding which had as its focus reproducing the crest trait. FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Mongrel lofts
24 posts
Dec 03, 2004
8:07 PM
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Starfire,
You are way wrong, in thinking you are the first or last to get crested rollers that can roll well.. If you would take a look in Tom Hatchers, last of the greats, a roller book of some of the old timers,, You will find pictures of two yellow bared crested rollers, that Chan Grover bred from his Less Manns birds back in the 60's or 70's...
Ralf Hilton, was famed for his shinny blacks, but they popped up with a crest now and then.. Many claimed Ralf had crossed arcangle into his blacks to get the sheen down the wing shields...
In the English book written by Graham Dexter, he has photo's of crested rollers from pure winning lines of Les Basanz (sp) rollers,, that they say could rip.
When I was judging the WC in the LA area, Tim Decker, who has place top 10 in the WC finals a few times, had a pair of red check crested rollers, he got from Joe Bowers, that Tim told me could roll 30 feet, very well..
My point is Stan, crest are odd, but nothing new You are no where near the first to breed a crest on a roller, nor the last..Most are interested in making better rollers, not rollers with feathers sticking up on their heads.. Funny you find the crest to be something special, I guess we all breed rollers for different reasons,, a big one for you, is to see feathers sticking up on their heads,, thats cool, odd, but nothing new.. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel lofts on Dec 03, 2004 8:08 PM
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JUrbon
39 posts
Dec 03, 2004
8:48 PM
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Well Tony I didn't realize I was saying anything that hadn't already been said befor. I didn't use profanity in any way. if you are going to edit the posts than I think you need to be a bit more consistant and by all means it is your site so edit away. I am not going to grace you with an apology due to the fact that like I said earlier that I dont feel I said anything that hadn't been said befor just put it in a little different terminology. Maybe I should have said gosh darn instead LOL. Joe
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redneckhippie15
87 posts
Dec 03, 2004
8:51 PM
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I am here to inform you all of the absence of my presence for some time while I decide exactly what to do with myself as I am not allowed to express my opinion in this forum, I enjoy a lively discussion and the trading of information.
Although I have not been around for an extended period of time I feel I have gained enough knowledge to contribute to some of the discussions.
Others cannot bear the thought of someone else having a better or newer idea. These people constantly jab at the programs and birds of other fanciers,evidently feeling they are superior to all of us in the sport, yet lack the flying credentials to support their claims of superiority.
I will be available by email to correspond with the brothers in the sport whom I care for and feel a certain affinity with.
rnh15
Last Edited by redneckhippie15 on Dec 03, 2004 8:54 PM
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
187 posts
Dec 03, 2004
10:11 PM
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Hello, there are times when the invective gets a little too heated and people go on and on and no one is making a point.
It is at times like these that I feel the need to step in. Others have had thier posts edited and removed (some are regular and informative posters). They take it in stride and some even apologise for use of certain words and such.
This tells me where they are coming from and I have respect for the courtesy shown when they could easily become offended by post edits and removals.
I can be "pummeled" for taking something off or editing or doing nothing! LOL
When someone posts it would be appropriate to keep in mind this notice that is at the bottom of the main discussion topic page:
"Anything deemed not appropriate or cutting of others or I feel does not have a place on these boards will be edited or removed".
I do not catch everything right away. But when I do, I do edit/remove those offending posts.
No one should take anything personal. Things get said on boards that no one would have the guts to say in person to another (not without ducking first) lol
I have only removed two people from this board and one was because I was informed by numerous people that he steals images off sites and sells them on a CD for a $100 and the other for extreme inappropriate use of the boards.
So until anyones membership is canceled, you are welcome and appreciated on this site. Thanks for taking the time to participate in this forum! FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Mother lode lofts
316 posts
Dec 03, 2004
11:28 PM
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Tony you've done a great job here, THANKS Tony!!!!!
I've been here a while now and I can assure everyone that Tony has never been heavy handed on editing posts unles he felt a real need for it.
Scott
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fhtfire
74 posts
Dec 04, 2004
12:03 AM
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HERE HERE!
I agree Scott...Nobody should get offended if Tony edits or removes something...I do not even like to see any bad words....(not because I don't like it but ..because I know there are people who are around 12 years old that look at this site for info...I remember a kid named Olka or something like that...He or she was 14yrs old. Trust me I am no saint by any means....I spend a lot of time in a Firehouse...LOL! Tony has always been fair and had good judgement....so with that said....shake it off and keep posting....it really helps the new people. I even think he edited one of my posts once.....or twice.....LOLQ
rock and ROLL
Paul
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C.J.
11 posts
Dec 04, 2004
5:49 AM
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First off Tony I think you do a great job at one that is thankless. Next you are questioned if you do and if you don't edit. The biggest thing is to not take it personally. We all get a little heated around the collar. What I do is write my response on a word program then wait the night edit when or if I cool off then I cut and paste it to your board. Sometimes there is still questionable words we all forget but that is why you are here. I personally say thanks for such a great site.
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C.J.
12 posts
Dec 04, 2004
6:09 AM
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STAN have you read my posts all the way through. I live in Ontario Canada. I know you don't know me, or many of my fellow fanciers this is obvious. What I keep trying to say to you is you try to paint all pigeon fanciers and judges in Ontario with the same brush. You yourself said everyone up here is crooks. This isn't true because you don't know everyone here in Ontario who is a pigeon fancier. You could have said "Everyone I have dealt with..." or "everyone I have encountered..." but when you say everyone you are alienating atleast a thousand people. When you start verbally attacking people you don't even know, your posts seem less credible even when you make some valid points. I have no doubt that you have some valuable information for the new fancier but when you antagonize all of the experienced fanciers and attack something they cherish and work hard towards their entire lives like the world Cup your valid points are lost. I suggest you curb your approach and join in meaningful discussions. We all know we are all hot heads and if you step on our toes we are going to stomp back.
Just My Two Cents!! C.J.
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bluebar
7 posts
Dec 04, 2004
6:28 AM
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"I am wondering...a mutation is generally believed by evolutionists to be an improvement. It has to do with changes to the DNA for the betterment of the species."
Rollerpigeon
Point of clarification. Actually, this is not true. Biologists never consider mutations "improvements". They are simply changes in the DNA sequence. What happens after that determines whether it is an "improvement" or not. That "what happens" is selection and that selection can be either natural, i.e., the change improves the odds of the animal bearing it to perhaps escape predators or eat something else, etc. Bottom line is that is allows the organism bearing it to produce more young that survive and carrying the mutation. This is what drives evolution, the selection acting on the mutation. Mutations in and of themselves are basically neutral. What determines whether or not the species is "improved" is what happens when they are acted on by selection. Suppose, for example, we have your basic everyday blue bar (wild-type) pigeon. We have a mutation, change in the DNA sequence, that causes the pigment on the wing shield to be spread instead of clumped and we wind up with a very dark check pigeon. In the wild hills of Scotland, such a weird colored pigeon in a flock might be more easily picked off by a falcon because it stands out or it might stand out more against the natural cliff face. Here it would be a "bad" mutation. On the other hand, same scenario but the bird is born to a pair of wild pigeons now living in a city landscape and perhaps the dark check is now less easily picked off by a falcon because it blends better with the asphalt background. Here it's a "good" mutation. It's the selective pressures that determine "good" or "bad".
Consider the point under discussion here, the crest. It would be considered a "deleterious or bad" mutation in the lofts of those of you who hate a crested bird. You kill or sell it and you often dispose of the parents that produce it. Hence, birds with a mutation for crest do NOT in your lofts produce and leave more young. Hence, a "bad" mutation. If you like crest and you and you select for it, i.e., you breed babies with crest and you keep them and selectively breed them for more, then it's a "good" mutation.
Crest in and of itself appears to have zero influence on the flight or rolling ability of the birds. There are many many tumbler/roller breeds both with and without crest. Crest is simply a fancier's desire for ornaments on his birds and either selected for or not.
Yes, there have been crests popping up in Birminghams for ages, likely since the breed's creation. My buddies raise Hilton's and haven't really added much to them, if anything, since they got them at the disposal sale years ago. Once in a while, they will pop a crested bird. They also pop the occasional youngster with some neural defect *the birds sit in the nest and move their heads perpetually back and forth like a woodpecker on speed". This is definitely a "bad" mutation, which is being weeded out by selection.
You also don't necessarily need to have a "crossed" bird in your loft to get crest. Recessives can stay in the genome for scores of years before two birds carrying it are mated and pop out a youngster showing the recessive. Also, MUTATIONS HAPPEN TODAY TOO! That means that any one reading this may have a bird in their loft right now that is bearing a new mutation. If it's a recessive one, the evidence for it may not show for generations simply because the birds are paired in such a way that two birds carrying it are not paired up. Finally it happens and bingo a youngster showing it pops up.
Okay? Back to the fight that I'm staying out of. And to keep from having to post when the arguments begin about the feather-footed Pensoms and other Birminghams. Same thing goes for them too. :-)
Frank Mosca
Last Edited by bluebar on Dec 04, 2004 6:31 AM
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
188 posts
Dec 04, 2004
8:08 AM
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Mutations:
"I am wondering...a mutation is generally believed by evolutionists to be an improvement. It has to do with changes to the DNA for the betterment of the species."
Rollerpigeon
“Point of clarification. Actually, this is not true. Biologists never consider mutations "improvements". They are simply changes in the DNA sequence. What happens after that determines whether it is an "improvement" or not”.
Bluebar
I stand by what I said with more clarification, “evolutionists” philosophically consider “mutations” to be an improvement in that through this mutation process the creature becomes better off, environmental factors notwithstanding.
I will maintain that what is called a “mutation” is merely “recombination”. This is limited variation within created kinds. All newly observed changes are merely the reshuffling of genes already present.
In order to refute this I think it is incumbent for one to provide 1 or more examples of a mutation that actually bettered the creature.
Not a “recombination” but an actual improvement that changed the creature and then passed same to its offspring where they demonstrated the same improvement…and provide an example that did so in such numbers as to “replace” the current “kind” (the example/s needs to be observable).
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Dec 04, 2004 8:10 AM
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Steve S.
20 posts
Dec 04, 2004
10:21 AM
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List,
I tend to agree with Tony on his observation of mutations.
#1- starting out with pigeons,
The mutation came about especially in the Almonds,
Some are born with bubble eyes, blind and in some cases no eyes in the sockets. (BAD)
#2-I live in the Shawnee Forest region of Ohio and when we get mutations in game such as coons being albino they are smaller with thin hair and can't take the cold winters and die under a year old. (BAD)
#3-Deer are born piebald or with alot of white on them.
They are smaller and weaker deer.
The coyotes kill them at an early age.(BAD)
Thus any animal or bird that mutates IMPO is a freak and is natures way of culling.
I would like for someone to give some examples as Tony asked for to put a positive side to mutation.
Later
Steve
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Mongrel lofts
26 posts
Dec 04, 2004
11:31 AM
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hey guys;
Im. back.you guys can breed your birds for 100 years and never get a crest.and most of you that say you did are full of crap.I have the only breed of roller with crest and a quality spin that I would put up against any bird one on one.
Stan Arnold
Hi Stan Arnold,
If you would go back and look at Tom Hatchers book, the Last of the greats. You will find the picture of two cream bared crested rollers bred By Chan Grover.. , out of his Less Manns birds... Chan is a friend of mine, and told me they would roll 30' very well.. Chan is in his 80's now..
Ralf Hilton was famous for his shinny blacks,, they had won many prices in the show cage and in the air I'm told,, These birds were shinny to the point of having the green sheen down the wing shields, when they started popping out crest, many said they had been crossed with archangels. Ralph always denied this, and said they were pure Pensom's..
In the book, winners with spinners, you will find a crested roller of the Les Basanz(sp) family of rollers, and Les says he gets one every now and then.. They are said to be pure Birmingham rollers that spin very well.
When I was judging the LA region, and staying with Tim Decker, who has place to ten in the WC a few times, he had a small family of crested rollers, he said could roll very well indeed..
The point is, the crest is an oddity, but you didn't create it Stan, its been around in some lofts for many years.. Other guys do have some crested birds that spin,, it just most aren't looking for oddities, they are looking for the best rollers one can get.. To focus on anything, other than the best roll, requires that you breed from second best,, maybe it spins well but lacks control,, hey but it spins well and I need the crest,, its the same thing when one chooses to breed for colors, factors, and patterns.. You have to put things in the gene pool, you would not normally stock, just to keep that factor going. Crest are oddities, but not rare and nothing new to the roller sport... Breeding for this oddity, I guess you could say is rather rare, as most want the exceptional roller, not the exception!! Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel lofts on Dec 04, 2004 4:43 PM
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STARFIRE
96 posts
Dec 04, 2004
12:45 PM
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Frank:
Thanks for your input.I dont want to argue about these birds.I just put up the site for others to see what I was up to.If I knew how many character assassins were out there,I might have changed my mind and not put it up.Were having a good discussion anyway.What ever lights your fire.It takes all kinds,and I think I was talking to a few mutations myself.LOL Carry on.=Stan Arnold=
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RolyPoly
14 posts
Dec 04, 2004
1:38 PM
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Positive mutations are probably not as discernable as bad because it improves the animals instead of marking it as weak. For instance if you bred your best pigeon with another of your best, who's to say there isn't some mutation happening which made that offspring an even better roller than its parents? Sometimes you can't see mutations. Mutations must be good sometimes or all us humans wouldn't be here. I also don't see why a crested roller can't be developed into an exceptional roller with time. RolyPoly
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STARFIRE
97 posts
Dec 04, 2004
7:43 PM
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Hey C.J.
You live in Ontario ? Whats your name and where do you live,and do you belong to any clubs here.Tell me who you know in the great white north that keeps birds .I know that there are millions of people here,but how many keep birds? How many can compete in the W.C in Ontario.Whos the pres.of the TFRC?I know a lot of guys that keep birds.Lets see who our mutual aquaintances are.=Stan Arnold= How about the CRC?
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Steve S.
23 posts
Dec 06, 2004
8:17 PM
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Dave,
Well said.!!
I read that somewhere back in my college days.
Steve
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J_Star
101 posts
Dec 07, 2004
11:25 AM
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Maybe I should not open this subject, but I couldn't help notice that in regard to honest people in Onterio that will substentiate some kind of light to StarFire claim is a post "How Many pigeons" and its the 12th post from the top.
It is another person who is claiming of dishonest breeders.
Jay
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warbie
4 posts
Dec 07, 2004
2:42 PM
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J Star just a note to your comment I also live in Ontario Canada. There are millions of people who live in this province. Two posts with people having misfortunes does not make an entire population of people crooked or evil. Most of the countries around the world think that all Americans are arrogant and violent but you and I know better or at least I hope we both do. Be careful before you generalize an entire group of people. I don't take anything anyone posts as a guest too seriously. If they can't join with their name then I am suspicious of their information. Most people here are pleasant and helpful. As for being ripped off you as the buyer need to know what you are buying and from who. I let people see my birds in the air. They speak for themselves. On that word I don't sell a lot of birds but have given quite a few away.
Roll On!!
Warbie
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J_Star
102 posts
Dec 07, 2004
7:03 PM
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Warbie,
No offence, we have crooks here in the states also and honest people. I beleive the same is also in Canada and other parts of the world. No one is generalizing anything, so please don't take it personally. Thanks.
In most cases when people have bad experenices with a few people they had contact with, they usually tend to generalize things. We all do it in one way or another in our life, but not really meaning what is said. Have you ever stopped by a town while you were traviling and felt that the people you had contact with were unhospitable and when you tell your experence to your freinds that sometimes it sounds that you are reffering to the whole town in general. I think that was the case with Starfire that was taken the wrong way. I was just trying to point that out.
Jay
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J_Star
104 posts
Dec 08, 2004
12:11 PM
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Warbie,
I agree with you 100%.
Jay
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K.Naylor
77 posts
Dec 08, 2004
12:49 PM
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Guys, I also agree. I look at it like this on feather merchants. How many great or even good flyiers put out ads trying to sell theire birds. I can not think of any. The best advertisement is word of mouth not "Self Promoting" ads. also the better flyiers are not trying to sell birds but will let some go to help out. Just my opinion, Kevin
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bluebar
8 posts
Dec 08, 2004
3:06 PM
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Tony,
I stand by what I said with more clarification, “evolutionists” philosophically consider “mutations” to be an improvement in that through this mutation process the creature becomes better off, environmental factors notwithstanding.
I will maintain that what is called a “mutation” is merely “recombination”. This is limited variation within created kinds. All newly observed changes are merely the reshuffling of genes already present. (Tony)
===========================================
For whatever reason, religious or philosophical, you seem to have some ethical objections to evolution which is fine with me, but it is why you're going thru some convoluted logic on your definition of "mutation". Claiming that recombination is okay but mutation is somehow only something bad is simply bad biology and evolutionary theory both. It also smacks of an attempt to deny that evolution actually happens and is happening.
Your first paragraph above is out and out wrong. I know that for a fact because I AM one of those "evil" evolutionist (whatever that is) and because I am well trained in biology. Mutations have always been are are considered to be neutral in and of themselves. If they cause immediate damage to an organism, then they are bad. Other than that, it is only as they are or are not selected for by the envirnment that determines their "worth".
Fact of biology and evolution both. Mutation IS the raw material of change. Recombination is simply what happens in a cell during meiosis and mitosis and what is recombined are the genes that are in there and some of those may or may not have been mutated. If you want an example of a mutation that is actually beneficial to an organism in one situration and not in another given situation, you need look no further than sickle cell in humans. If you are heterozygous for the mutation, you actually live and reproduce much longer in an area with endemic malaria than you would without it. Homozygous sickle cell carriers die young. Homozyous normals (wild type if you prefer) tend to die early of malaria. Het sickle cell carriers are a bit tired from the blood cell damage, but this same cell damage also kills the malaria parasite and so the carriers live to grow and reproduce kids.
I could come up with hundreds of examples in animals also, but I have neither the time nor interest in getting into a biological debate in a roller forum.
By the way, regarding mutations: That's what's being flown by everyone here. Mutations from wild type. Mutations toward lower activation potential in the neck muscle;(hence spin); mutations in wild type pigment form and placement (hence ash-red, brown, pieds, checks, recessive red, dilutes, etc.); mutations in eye color, mutations in feather growth, (hence crests & slippers and muffs); etc.
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