K.Naylor
78 posts
Dec 08, 2004
3:42 PM
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Blubar, I have a question on the mutants. Why do these only show up in certain lofts? Please help?? thanks
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chachi
11 posts
Dec 08, 2004
9:14 PM
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Hello All,
Like to say enjoy posts as usual. Don't usually have much to say but always have questions that are answered by everyones conversation here. Would like to toss a thought in on this one as it seems so hot.
Regarding the "popping up" of mutations in the Birmingham Roller. Why would anyone want to breed for a mutation if the true "Birmingham Roller" fancier wanted to achieve the roll. If everyone is shooting for the roll, should we not be trimming pieces off? Refining our birds, trimming the fat, getting them down to fighting weight. Now I would imagine that no two inviduals tastes are alike, and we all enjoy our own birds in different ways either in the air or sittin' on a five gallon bucket in the coop for hours on end 'till our wives bust our ear drums with their squawkin' about comin' in :)
I have finally bred "in my mind" what I believe to be what the perfect birmingham roller should "look" like in type. A little black checked badge hen with the type that I envisioned from actually reading here, looking at the web sites/pictures(alot of your birds belonging to readers of this site) for there are not many flyers around me. She is coming into the roll very nicely, kits like a champ already, and has me stoked to think what she will become. I am not the smartest, nor most experienced, and probably would get my butt handed to me in a debate about rollers. However, the one thing I can say I have is common sense. Some of the things I read here have my timing a little off and backfiring.
My interpretation of Pensoms book regarding color. He said it was his experience that the best birds are hard colors like the blue checks and so forth. Many people I feel misinterpret where he was going with that. He did say there are many good rollers in many colors, BUT it was his experience(again that I believe) that after a you bred for the roll after so long "that those are the colors you would WIND up with". Meaning that all this hub bub about breeding this and breeding that to make a NEW color is only swimming up river if you are trying to maintain the genes for roll. So the mere thought of working with other breeds to cross in only takes us backward two steps in the establishment of this bird as a true breed over time.
As for the crest deal. I have seen Mr. Starfire's web site. I believe(please correct me if I am wrong) he calls them Starire Crests, not Birmingham rollers. He said that is what he used to get them. So to each his own, I read he said he had crested rollers, not crested Birmingham rollers. In reading the book" True spinners II". I believe in Kowalski's thought on Aerodynamics for faster spin. It is only logical and common sense. Balance of type/feather(Kowalski) plus character/breeding(Pensom)=equals one bad ass "looking" little black check badge hen :) (hope she rolls as good as she looks to me).
AnyWho, the bells, whistles, and Knick-Knacks are cool. But my opinion is if we are to breed the fastest "Birmingham roller" should we not get rid of the extra parts and work on making the Birmingham Roller breed stable/fast in spin at 300 ft in the air less we create what would other wise wind up to be a show pigeon? Thoughts good and bad are welcome, I got thick skin. I would rather have someone tell me I'm steppin' on it than lie to me and tell me I'm pretty when I know I'm so ugly that the doctor signed sorry on my birth certificate!
Last Edited by chachi on Dec 08, 2004 9:34 PM
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Mongrel lofts
29 posts
Dec 09, 2004
9:44 AM
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Hey Chaci,
Good post,, One thing I would mention, type is important, but first a good roller must posses the arch reflex,or stimulus (engine) to roll.. I have seen all types of rollers that can roll pretty well.. I have seen many perfectly typed rollers, that don't do much more than tumble or fly stiff or roll down. Type does not a good roller assure so they must roll first.. Type is the easiest of all things to change.. Setting of the roll gene in your birds, should be #1 above all things.. The rest, you can adjust as you breed along!!
You are 100% correct Chaci, the best rollers, have great type, and also posses the roll.. Mongrel Lofts
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RolyPoly
17 posts
Dec 09, 2004
3:48 PM
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bluebar, I said something like that a little further up in my simple way. I hope you've educated some of the people here because you are right. I guess the word mutant and mutation have bad connotations and that's why some perceive them as bad rather than good or bad depending.
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Mount Airy Lofts
2 posts
Dec 09, 2004
4:03 PM
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Crested Rollers?
To what I read about Crested rollers was that they came from the Yellow side of the Birmingham Roller.
A prime example of the existence of Crested Rollers in the past has been documented in the book "The Last Of The Greats AND The Next Generation" by Thomas R. Hatcher on page #37.
A fellow in Canada named Stan Arnold has also claimed to achieve Crested rollers from Stock he recieved from W. H. Pensom: http://pages.zdnet.com/stan_a35/id1.html
If this crest mutation is linked with the family of the old yellow imports then they must also possess the weak character yellows have. How could one continue breeding weak characters year after year if performance was a key selection. Even that fellow Stan Arnold claims on his website that he would use un desirable bird in maintaining his crested family of rollers. Yellow and weak character go hand to hand in most flying guy's book. Of course there are a few exceptions to this rule... like Yellow Checks.
Back to history about Yellows, I recall reading that W. H. Pensom played around with some Yellows in the days to see what they were made of but the result he found was that they couldn't hold up in the long run... hence he got rid of the bunch. After being culled, those Yellows weren't suppose to carry the Pensom name of Legacy but the fellow who got them passed them off as Pensoms anyway.
I think crested rollers can be bred from the Birmingham Roller. A whole lot less so now then in the old days suppose. Most of todays mutations are results of cross breeding.
Heck if your crested rollers roll with extreme velocity with pin point control then go for it. Altho if these crested rollers are just bred for their crest then you got yourself another issue here.
When it all comes down to it, I don't mind watching any Birmingham roller roll with extreme velocity... crest or no crest.
Flying them,
Thor
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Dec 09, 2004 4:06 PM
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bluebar
9 posts
Dec 17, 2004
5:52 PM
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"Blubar, I have a question on the mutants. Why do these only show up in certain lofts? Please help?? thanks"
K. Naylor
Sorry to have taken so long to answer but I've been busy with work, etc., for the past week.
There can be a few answers to the question the way you phrase it, but the most common one is simply that the founder birds likely carried some unknown or unnoted recessives that begin to show due to inbreeding of the family. For example: let's say one of the ten founder birds of a new loft just happened to carry recessive red. None of the others do, just that one. The breeder can pair birds for ages until two of the birds produced which are heterozygous for recessive red are also paired. At that point, 25% of the young produced will be recessive reds while 50% of that pairing will also carry recessive red. In like manner, the recessive could be something like crest, webfoot, etc.
Any loft may also be the setting for a mutation itself. There have been a few cases of those appearing in pigeons. One happened in the loft of a famous racer in Belgium. His breeding loft was a closed one. I mean nothing was in that loft ever, except for the blue bars/checks that were in there for years. Suddenly, one pair produced a grizzle. That bird went on to produce more grizzles. This bird was noted by Leon Whitney, D.V.M., in one of his books also.
Mutations can happen anywhere, anytime. In most cases they are recessive and not noted for years until two birds carrying it are paired. Even then, it has to be noticed by the breeder. That's not always something that they do. I can't count the number of times that breeders have told me a bird was some normal color only to find it was something more unique.
Often two or more things are confused too. Indigo is often mixed up with opal by some fanciers, etc.
Hope this helps.
Frank Mosca
Happy Holidays
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Mongrel lofts
32 posts
Dec 17, 2004
8:34 PM
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Blue Bar,,
I have a question, if you really beleive in evolution, where did DNA start? Personaly, I believe in creation and a creator... KGB
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highroller
63 posts
Dec 18, 2004
8:38 AM
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I'm with you on the creation and creator issue KGB. I don't see these small mutations as evolution. Minor changes such as the curl or color of a feather popping up here or there did not change every one of them from a dinosaur or a fish into a roller pigeon.
Dan
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highroller
64 posts
Dec 18, 2004
10:34 AM
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Bluebar,
Both the evolutionists and the creationists can put up an impressive list of books or articles supporting their stance on the issue. Neither one of them is likely to change the other's views. We each believe deeply in our hearts that we are correct. Even with our differing views on how it all began and who is in control, I appreciate your knowledge of genetics and the info you present on the changes that can take place. We are all welcome here and can make positive contributions to this forum so type away!
Dan
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
189 posts
Dec 18, 2004
5:45 PM
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The "Theory" of evolution is just that, a "theory". No scientist has yet provided or demonstrated how a molecule changes its workings from one function to another.
"Science has made enormous progress in understanding how the chemistry of life works, but the elegance and complexity of biological systems at the molecular level have paralyzed science's attempt to explain thier origins".
"There has been virtually no attempt to account for the origin of specific, complex biomoleccular systems, much less any progress".
Apparently, darwiniam evolutionism is found wanting by many who call themselves evolutionists.
Can an evolutionists explain the cascading process by which the coagulating of blood evolved? Why does not the whole blood stream coagulate when an animal or human is cut effectively "freezing" and killing the victim?
To say that one type of creature evolved into another creature is easy to say and repeat, showing how it happened on a molecular level is still impossible.
To say evolution is a fact goes against the very concept of what science is.
To cut through all the hocus pocus, read a book called:
"Darwin's Blackbox" written by Michael J. Behe a Professor of Biochemistry at Lehigh University and published by Simon & Schuster.
He is an honest evolutionist who admits that there is no proof of darwinian evolutionism on the molecular level where it ALL HAS TO HAPPEN. But he feels one day it will be discovered but as of yet no one has.
(Quotes are from the book: Darwin's Black Box)
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Dec 18, 2004 5:47 PM
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bluebar
11 posts
Dec 19, 2004
8:34 AM
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Gentlemen:
In every field there are specialized meanings of words. Head means something totally different in the navy than it does anywhere else, etc. The word Theory in science NEVER means just a guess. An educated guess is a "hypothesis" not a Theory. Nothing is ever elevated to a Theory unless and until there is a massive, repeat massive, amount of evidence to back it up. The one big difference between any religion and science is that they begin from different premises.
Religion begins with the idea that what is stated is "True" and everything that tends to contradict or disagree with that "truth" is discarded. This is why there is so much dichotomy between various "Truths" in religions. Religion also starts from the premise that there is a god or gods and by definition these gods/god is all powerful or controls something the existence of these gods or god are untestable by science.
Science begins from the premise that only what is testable can be looked at. By definition, science is system and this system follows what is known as the scientific method (that is essential). There is a methodology. Basically, we generate after looking at whatever exists, we generate a hypothosis. Then we change only 1 (one) and we look to see what that change produces. We also have a control we're nothing is changed to make sure that we haven't inadvertently caused whatever we view. What happens determines whether or not we had a valid hypothosis. Whether valid or not, the testing produces a result that leads to more hypotheses and questions. They also lead to a fine tuning of what was known before.
By definition religion is "unchanging". By definition, science is self-correcting and it will accept new evidence as it becomes available and as it shows a more accurate way of describing reality.
I am also continuously amazed that people who refuse to accept the validity of the "Theory of Evolution" (as an aside Darwin and Wallace were absolutely brilliant but remember they knew NOTHING about genetics. Everyone on this forum knows more of genetics than they did, because the importance of Mendel's work wasn't even known by anyone until 1900, and Darwin died in 1882)
The same people who have problems with the word "Theory" in evolution never, ever will tell me that they are willing to stand at Ground Zero the day of a nuclear weapons test or go visit a star and stand on it. After all, those are described by the "Theory of Relativity".
Not one of those same people have any problems getting on a jet. Yet, the description of how these work is described by the Theory of Aerodynamics.
A lot here seem to feel there is a dichotomy between science and religion. There isn't. They are two separate things.
As for no scientist can tell how "molecule changes its workings from one function to another" --
of course they can, that's the definition of chemistry and nuclear physics.
I really don't want to get into some major discussion here. I honestly don't go out of my way to cause dissension among those who want to believe what they want to believe. That's your right guaranteed under the Constitution. However, my "belief" is predicated on observations and on fact not on "revealed truth".
Frank Mosca
Last Edited by bluebar on Dec 19, 2004 8:40 AM
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Mother lode lofts
329 posts
Dec 19, 2004
1:23 PM
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Frank if you ask "He will set you free" once you get a taste of it thats when you know what is tue and what isn't and then such debates are meaningless. This morning I prayed that for you.
Scott Campbell
Merry Chistmas everyone !!!!!!!
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Dec 19, 2004 2:54 PM
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bluebar
12 posts
Dec 19, 2004
4:34 PM
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Thank you, Scott. I realize kindness is always framed from a person's world view and I appreciate your caring.
Best of the season to you too
Frank Mosca
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STARFIRE
7 posts
Mar 23, 2006
2:43 PM
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Hey Guys:
Iv`e been reading the posts again,And I don`t know why everyone assumes that,because I breed a crest on the birds it is getting away from the roll.These birds came from a family of Pensom birds that I have kept pure since 1968.I didnt cross anything in to get the crest it just came out,as others have stated in their posts.I have been breeding these Crested mutations since about 1980,as one family.Remember,they came from Pensom rollers.If you don`t think you can breed Crest and roll,you are mistaken.Thats like saying you can`t breed for color and roll,and you know this isnt true.My Crests will spin 30-40 ft. with high velocity.As for all you guys that are saying that I
wasn`t the first to breed Crests on their rollers.I agree,But who has a loft full of them and specifically breeds for that.You`v said it in your posts=So and so bred some crests and they killed them.Or they wouldn`t want to breed any more.Probably because they were not a good spinner to begin with.I`m not afraid to breed for what I want=CREST and SPIN.If you dont believe me ,come and see me sometime if you are up this way for the W>C>Fly.==C.J
you are suposed to live in Ontario.Why don`t you come and see my birds.Come here and you can tell everybody one way or the other.You won`t have a lot to say if you did.That`s if you know what a good spinner looks like.
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STARFIRE
Last Edited by STARFIRE on Mar 23, 2006 2:49 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
538 posts
Mar 23, 2006
8:44 PM
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Hey Frank,
You are wrong about saying religion throws out what doesn't fit. I think it is exactly the other way around! LOL
There are more and more "scientists" who do not subscribe to Darwins theories. I will get into this later.
As for complexity and how life "evolved", anyone can read a very good book written for us "laymen" called "Darwins Black Box". It will explain the many problems of the liklihood of evolution taking place.
Imagine a bicycle factory somehow spontaneously becoming a motorcycle factory all on its own. I think it takes more "faith" to believe in the religion called "evolution" than it does to believe in intelligent design.
Of course this is just my opinion...and that of hundreds if not thousands of scientists all over the world. lol
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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spinnerdom
69 posts
Mar 25, 2006
12:09 PM
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mr cj i know stan,made tires all his life,kept rollers most of his life, i flew against him, at least 25yrs.
assasination is your game,twist words, throw them back in their face, you are a disgrace to the human race,stan has won more flys than any one in the world cup .
if allowed to fly in the worldcup here. he would dominate it here.thats a fact. just who do you think you
.
tony ;you allow this shit another post asked where did every one go. used to be a lot busier. i now understand why
jim
you edit what ever but dont touch this post[ character assasination],is lower than a tick on a flea [read page one]
any one touch this, will be done by tony
Last Edited by spinnerdom on Mar 26, 2006 10:00 AM
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spinnerdom
70 posts
Mar 25, 2006
12:16 PM
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mr knaylor stans problem w/c is because the w/c has no teeth the question is waiting for you at the dome.
your time has come.
jim
Last Edited by spinnerdom on Mar 25, 2006 12:18 PM
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J_Star
317 posts
Mar 25, 2006
8:15 PM
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This has gone far enough. Name calling is not permitted in this Forum whether you are new at this website or an old participant. Please edit your post or will be edited for you.
Jim, the same goes for you. Stan can stand for himself. So edit your post or delete it.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Mar 25, 2006 8:17 PM
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STARFIRE
12 posts
Mar 26, 2006
2:21 PM
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Hey Guys:
Theres one thing in all the bull about my Crested birds that never came out.Did you ever think that if my Crests were stolen,that they would be easy to identify even if the bands were removed?=LOL=Hey J.Star=why do you want to edit Jim? are you afraid of the truth?As soon as someone that knows me comes to my defence you want to edit him.What is this Russia?Why dont you Edit J.C He likes to assasinate someones character that he does`nt know.How come he wont say who he is?I thought Anonymous posters weren`t supposed to be on this board.=Stan Arnold=
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STARFIRE
Last Edited by STARFIRE on Mar 26, 2006 2:34 PM
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J_Star
321 posts
Mar 26, 2006
7:22 PM
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Stan,
Those posts were written in Nov. 2004. This is old stuff, we are in March 2006 and the posting rules have changed. We don't need to be bringing things back because someone brought the post back in regards to crested rollers. No one has made any attack on you, so let’s not start on the wrong foot. If you have an issue with CJ please take it offline and settle your differences. I have not seen a post by CJ since last year that criticized you or said anything negative about you or any Canadian or American or European. So please chill out and move on.
Stan and Jim, I am the moderator for this site and been appointed by Tony. If you have an issue with it, then speak up. You and CJ have stopped posting for quite some times now, let’s say more than a year and all of sudden Jim pops up and now the three of you are posting at the same time. Coincidence!!! Maybe but we don’t want crap posted on this site, so let’s keep it civil.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Mar 26, 2006 7:55 PM
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spinnerdom
84 posts
Mar 26, 2006
9:44 PM
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this post on page one to me new post, this should have been addressed then. dippers opps (diappers) get stronger with age.
jim
Last Edited by spinnerdom on Mar 29, 2006 8:09 AM
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C.J.
58 posts
Mar 27, 2006
3:33 PM
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Hmmm very interesting how a post that is two years or better can be rehashed and people who know nothing about the original topic get involved and start calling names. I was just going to ignore this little bitch fest but once again people start dragging other fanciers names through the mud ( this time mine) so I decided to set the record straight. Stan no where in my post did I attack your credibility as a man or flyer. ( If I did that was not my intention) Nor did I say your birds weren’t good or may be even excellent ROLLERS they just aren’t for me. I have never been to your loft or seen them fly therefore I would NEVER judge them as strictly ROLLERS purely on how they look on a web site ( which I found very interesting). Hell I haven’t even met you face to face. If you knew me you would know that even if your birds were junk I would find something nice to say about them and end up setting you in the right direction for good birds. The only thing that stands out in my opinion is they are no longer true B.R’s and that is o.k. too as long as you are happy with the end product. Where my issue came in with you is when myself and some other fanciers said we had the crest show up in our lofts but chose not to pursue that mutation or throw back. I used mutation because it is in one of your own posts. Then you went on to say that there were no other crested birds in most of our lofts or in Ontario only yours and you should know cause you live here. Well sorry I live here and so does Vibey from this site. You went to call all the judges and everyone up here ( Ontario, Canada) crooks. You said that was the reason you didn’t participate in the W.C. This was the statement that offended me the most. You were trying to paint us ( by us I mean Canadians) except yourself with the same brush which is untrue and unfair because there is absolutely no way you know everyone who raises birds in Mississauga ( population of over 600,000) not to mention the entire province with a population of over 12,000,000 people or OUR country with a population of over 30,000.000. As for who I know in the roller community I do not and will not validate myself to you or anyone else for that matter. It would be very disrespectful to the men I know to just start typing their names on the web without their permission. All you need to do to see who I know is look at the C.P.F.A. membership. I have had dealings with several of the men from Ontario and out west on that list. As for me posting anonymously how do you figure this? I post using my everyday name C.J. if I was posting anonymously as you say it would say Anonymous. As for coming to see your birds fly if I am ever in Mississauga I would love to let my kids see them. Again this is a two year old post and I feel that rehashing this old stuff is just ridiculous. As for Spinnerdom you don’t know me and the original post was way before you started here so give me a break. Interesting how you attack me on the web where there is little or no accountability. Oh and it is nice to actually be able to understand what you are saying for a change. Nice language, do you kiss your mom with that mouth. Oh and great if Stan enters and dominates the World Cup I am happy for him it would be great to see his hard work pay off and have a fellow Canadian in the winners circle. Now J Star you need to read posts more closely I have been posting here all along and quite frequently I just may not post as much as some others after all I do work 60 hours a week. That doesn’t mean I am not here. So in closing I am not going to keep feuding over a post two years old. I have no hard feelings towards you STAN I just hope you don’t keep grouping our entire country men in a poor light.
Just My Two Cents!!
C.J.
P.S. If I offended anyone in this post it was not my intension. I may change this to my sign off!! LMAO
Last Edited by C.J. on Mar 27, 2006 3:35 PM
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J_Star
324 posts
Mar 27, 2006
5:32 PM
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Well, I hope this clarification will bring this to rest. Let’s move on and enjoy the show.
CJ, Thanks for reminding me...
Jay
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C.J.
63 posts
Mar 29, 2006
4:17 AM
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I hope so, and you are welcome.
C.J.
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spinnerdom
118 posts
Mar 29, 2006
7:27 AM
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bluebar have never liked the color of the bird, but this bluebar is definetly a keeper,im going to put some of these
in the coup, because the stuff in there, are a little short.
a bluebar silver maybe with a crest, he would be a standout
jim
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