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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive > Breed Standard Input???
Breed Standard Input???


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Bill C
535 posts
Aug 04, 2010
8:07 PM
Hi Paul, I know I have not been around lately, but I think Pensoms standard is the best but we will not all agree on that Champion blurr in the sky though. They are only one here or there at every loft so the standard has to be reduced to accomodate concert performance and quality rolling. I think what the NCRC has is pretty much as good as it will get.

I know you or someone had said, Pensom would be amazed on what good kits are flying around the country today. I agree with that but he would also see all the low quality actions kits. But I believe he would still say there is only a few birds in every good kit that is a true champion though. Even though there are some darn good competition kits to see, they certainly do not have 20 champion rollers in them, none the less they are fun to watch and the one or two or even three that would really stand out help us with those multiplier numbers.

just thought I would read on whats going on tonight. Good luck Bill C

Last Edited by on Aug 04, 2010 8:13 PM
wannaroll
221 posts
Aug 04, 2010
10:19 PM
Paul, when you come out with your book on rollers let me know. I will be standing in line to buy it for sure.
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Dave - Hesperia, CA.

(San Bernardino Mountain Spinners)
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4395 posts
Aug 05, 2010
1:01 AM
Paul - good post. I think it is needed, but you will get some severe resistance. The roller hobby still is kind of the dirt bag of the pigeon hobby because we have a lack of breed knowledge and breed consistency and we do nothing to police it. Doing nothing to police it is even encouraged by many breeders and some of them have a strong following, too. I would like to see a bench mark standard, but I think you will have to kill all those over 45 to get it installed and policed.

Good luck with it and no matter how far you can take it I will accept it whole heartily.

I would like to help you, but I am old; tired; and stupid.
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Think Outside The Box
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Nick Siders

Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 1:13 AM
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4148 posts
Aug 05, 2010
4:26 AM
A new national club will have to be established with the express purpose of proclaiming this new standard while simultaneously starting local chapters all over the country that promote this standard with a particular emphasis on training judges to become expert in this new standard.

I can't see the traditional powers-that-be over at the NBRC being willing to touch this idea with a 10 foot pole. Why mess with their current power and financial golden goose? In my opinion, the only way to succeed is through a new organization.

The energy that would be needed to change the NBRC thinking would be better spent on a new national club willing to seek and promote this new order.

Paul, call me and let's talk about your idea...
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria


The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
Scott
3121 posts
Aug 05, 2010
7:19 AM
There has allways been a standard ...fast, straight.. and wings up.. a even when I was a kid this was the universal standard.
The biggest problem is I'm afraid is it evolves around ego points for many .. they just want points.. you even have some now pushing to force judges to score inferior birds (culls) ...the rules are fine.. it is the flyers that need to be educated.
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Scott Campbell

" God Bless "

Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 7:20 AM
winwardrollers
516 posts
Aug 05, 2010
9:19 AM
Scott
"ego points" is a good way to describe this craze.
Some simply want the bottom portion of culls to be judged so they can score a few more trash points.

Paul F.
Each individual can write up his own standard for their individual loft then each Spring and Fall fly that standard they have selected against the rest of the nation or world and see how they do.....seems like the system has provided....Fly your kit against our new worldcup winner Eric,s standard and see how it stacks up.
Bwinward

Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2010 4:48 PM
ezeedad
1117 posts
Aug 05, 2010
10:45 AM
The standard of the breed already exists and was forwarded by the late William H. Pensom from it’s place of origin. The true Birmingham Roller as described by Mr. Pensom is the most highly skilled of all aerial performing pigeons. To maintain this level of excellence, the standard of performance must always be pursued.

STANDARD

1. The bird spins backward with such a velocity that its’ features are indistinguishable, and appear as a blur. (Blur Speed)

2. The wings of the bird are held parellel to one another or are nearly touching at the tips. (H Pattern)

3. Viewed from the side and at the proper angle, a small hole can be seen around which the birds’ body is spinning. (Shows a Hole)

Paul Gomez

Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 10:47 AM
fhtfire
2578 posts
Aug 05, 2010
11:32 AM
Paul,

I agree that is basically the only standard written to this point....but it is very vague. that tells basically what the bird will do. A standard goes much further because it is basically the blueprint of how to put together the perfect specimen in the air as well as what should be allowed in the stock loft.

You must talk about the many different traits in a little more detail. The standard also has to be strict and high enough to obtain..that is why detail is needed. I am talking about the bird that you have in your mind that is like wow...that is what the standard is set to. H pattern or better...the bird enters the roll in an instant like the bird struck a wall, The roll should be clean and smooth with violent speed. The revolutions should not be seen with the naked eye and "wing switching";(see definition) is unacceptable. the bird must have the appearance of a spinning ball. The bird must snap out of the roll without hesitation facing the same direction as the start of the roll. Tail riding, wing switching or legs outstretched are most undesireable traits....on and on.

The standard would start out with a history of the B.R. Then you would have some blurps from Pensom like you have posted above.

Then you start out with the standard...WIng Postition can be a set with pictures of desireable and undesirable traits, Kitting, Entering and exiting the roll, speed of toll, depth of roll...that it is desired that the bird carry all the characteristics that meet the standard set fourth by the NBRC with the trait of meeting the standards in a team setting not just individual performance.

The NBRC gives a statement that fore the betterment of the breed all members should strive to only stock birds that have desirable traits in every aspect of the standard, a bird with one undesirable trait us unacceptable and should not be bred.

Then definitions etc. A detailed description with a high standard will keep the breed strong for many generations.

Stands do not have to be followed...and that is not a worry to the organization because the ones that are following the standard will have the birds that are wanted and they are the birds that will enter the mainstream for sale. Birds from breeders that do not follow the standard and breed inferior sub par birds will have very few hit the mainstream but they will die off in the mainstream for lack of performance.

It is a win win situation for all...and any top notch flier that feels there should not be a strict standard...then they are not for the betterment of the breed. Just a simple standard will fix many of the issues an arguments in the pigeon world.

Again...Individuals do not set the standard...organizations do. Without a standard you will have many many indvidual standards. The standard will not be hard to write...most know what a good pigeon looks like...and if they dont...when the standard is complete..they will know what a good pigeon should look like by reading the standard.

I agreee 100% Paul. Pensom has a good foundation for writing a standard...but it has to be a little more detailed. It is easy for you to understand because you grew up in a pigeon generation and had many great fliers to mentor you...but now we have new flires that dont have anyone turn to...and so many different opinions ....is makes your head spin....so they need the organization to guide them...then the trickle down affect happens...you start seeing more good lofts...more good birds and more mentors then the standard runs itself...it will grow legs just as fast as not having a standard has grown legs

rock and ROLL

Paul
fhtfire
2579 posts
Aug 05, 2010
11:40 AM
Paul,

Another cool thing about standards is that they CAN be changed with evolution of the breed and the evolution of the organization as a whole.

That standard we need is just that...Pensom wrote that 50 years ago....that is a half a century..different times, different ways to get information....How confused could be in 1950 with only getting information from one or two individuals and now you get information from thousands of indviduals..the more opinions the more confusion..well we have evolved as fliers and as an organization and times have a been changin...We now need to get more detailed and draw a line in the sand so that the information coming from thousands is the same. WE can still debate body type...because you cant put that in the standard...because that is not an issue....all body types roll good and look appealing to the eye and all body types could meet the standard...anyway....just wanted to add some more


rock and ROLL

Paul

Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 11:42 AM
glenn
285 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:15 PM
The standard is already written....(See Scott & Paul's post)
Strive for that which is already written and you will fly a good kit. The problem is people want to change the standard to score points and when competitions. The thing they should be striving for is breeding fast good and great pigeons that fly & breed with consistency. As long as the judges score pigeons that do not preform to the standard there will be always be a problem....This is just my thoughts on the subject.......Glenn

Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 12:15 PM
michael salus
256 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:21 PM
Scott is absolutely right in his post. Paul, If you change the standard you change the breed. Look at all the pigeons that they have changed the standard on over the years... now they can't even fly.. There are limitations of the breed and the best birds that they flew 100 years ago are just as good as the best we have now. The more you try to describe the performance the more blurred it gets.Ezeedad wrote the standard above, anything else is of less quality.. That's pretty clear to me.
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MJ "Peace"
wishiwon2
346 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:23 PM
I think it may be more necessary to describe or define the minimum accpetable standard than the ideal, for a couple of reasons. Few of us have seen the ideal often enough let alone raised such a bird to have confidence in the ability to produce it with any degree of predictability. On the other hand all of us have seen and raised birds that are the median and have experience with birds which are at and below the level that is minimally acceptable. We're working with something we know and are familiar with in defining what is minimally acceptable. It is ok to try and describe the ultimate but it is more difficult because it is seen so rarely. I believe there will be stronger opinion and less agreement in what defines the ideal.

An example of minimally acceptable; performs 15 or more times in a 20 min period, drops 10 feet, wings at or above 45 degrees out from body, rotates with sufficient speed so that the individual rotations cant be counted, doesnt wing switch , rolls from a kit and doesnt hesitate to return.

I see more disagreement in describing the epitome of rollerdom. My opinion; I think clean H wing and () is superior to A frame. I prefer smoothness over a violent appearance in a roll. I add an element of kit work, together with its team mates to what I consider ideal. I agree with blur speed but see no point in idealizing a hole viewed from the side. Just example of what some of the differences already I see from this short thread. I reserve the right to change my preference, but it wont be because you, anyone else or a governing body told me something else is better. I will negotiate more readily on what is minimally acceptable that what perfection is or can be.

Just a commentary - I dont want any standard to say "Pensom" anywhere in it. I credit the man for bringing them to the United States and sharing his knowledge with fanciers here about how to fly and breed them. He promoted the breed well. For being a great breeder and flier of these birds, of which there have been many since. He is dead and gone and has been for a long time. I would rather we describe what WE expect from rollers not live in the past and keep regurgitating what HE wanted, even though the 2 may be the same or close to it.
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Jon

If it were easy, everybody would do it

Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2010 11:31 PM
wishiwon2
347 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:42 PM
Quoting Scott - "There has always been a standard ...fast, straight.. and wings up.. a even when I was a kid this was the universal standard ... the rules are fine.. it is the flyers that need to be educated."

I agree, quality is easy to identify. You just have to be honest with yourself about it and that is sometimes hard to do because it requires us to admit we were wrong or need improvement.



Quoting Paul - "How many fliers (new) get so confused on what they shoudl be breeding for when 50 "individuals" are giveing 50 answers and 50 judges are judging 50 different ways based on the judges standard...."

Paul I dont think creation of a written standard will solve this. I also dont think there is really that much or that wide of a difference in opinion of what great rollers are. It is in the application of the standard that differences lie. It is how low one is willing to go and still consider acceptable. Most every judge I have met had a very similar description of 'the ideal' but several varied in where they drew the bottom line and were willing to score. Any new flier that is willing to be open minded and seek to improve will learn by observation what greatness is and strive towards it. If they arent open as a beginner, it is pointless to try and educate them anyway.


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Jon

If it were easy, everybody would do it

Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 12:44 PM
ezeedad
1118 posts
Aug 05, 2010
1:13 PM
Paul the firefighter..
What you are looking for goes far beyond the standard. It is much too complex...something like a dissertation on the breed.
Of course there is a lot more that we have to think about, but really the standard as I extracted it from Pensom is extremely
hard to achieve, and it is more than enough of a challenge in itself.
Furthermore, if we strive for anything less, we are willing to accept mediocrity.

Paul Gomez
P.S. I can see where this is going, but I am only talking about the standard...

Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 1:18 PM
fhtfire
2580 posts
Aug 05, 2010
2:22 PM
Glenn,

First off I would like you to show me a written standard. Not one written by an individual but by and organization. That is the problem there is not standard...only what is written in a book and it is very vague.

Scott is right the fliers need to be educated and that is with a standard. A written document that is not word of mouth...you see writing can not change and if it does people will notice...stories and rules change from person to person. I have taken a ton of management classes where they teach you about communication and writing things down. They took the first person in the class and told him a couple sentences of directions.....then he had the next person whisper in the other persons ears and so on...when they got to the last person the directions were nowhere close to what the original direction were...because all it took was one person to change one work or meaning and bam..it changes the whole sentence....then the instructor wrote questions down on a piece of paper...then each person read the paper in the other persons ear...guess what...at the end of the line nothing had changed and everyone was on the same page.

Hope that helps...there is nothing written down.

rock and ROLL

Paul
fhtfire
2581 posts
Aug 05, 2010
2:30 PM
Glen standards are not written to score points...read the definition of a breed standard...second paragraph of my first post is where it starts. The standard should be STRICT and only allow the best specimens to breed from.

ALL a standard is ....is directions on how to build the bird with pictures and wording and what is acceptable and not acceptable. Just detailed directions.... Dont look at them for what they are not.

This is educating the fliers according to scotts post.

Why do you think every organization had a standard of breeding that cares about the betterment of the breed.

Fast good great quality pigeons does not say anything...I have some culls right now that you can have that are fast and good and to SOME would be great quality pigeons...to me they are fast and good...but lack proper wing position and somtimes come out of the roll sloppy....or they will have on bad roll out of 10...I want 1 bad roll out of 30. but from certain angles they are fast as hell...but I want it from all angles and so should the NBRC...

I have birds that damn near never make a mistake and side by side would make a good fast pigeon look like a retard....because they do EVERYTHING RIGHT...

Oh and as long as the judges score the pigeons right....what judge the 90 point judge or the 2000 point judge...who is scoring them right...who is right....prove what judge is right.....show me in writing which judge is not following the standard....wait the rules say the judge makes his own standard...but yet the definition of a breed standard says...Standards are set by clubs or associations NOT THE INDIVIDUAL...that is breeding 101.

rock and ROLL

Paul
fhtfire
2582 posts
Aug 05, 2010
2:37 PM
Mike,


We are not changing any standard we are just putting it on paper. That is it. The standard can only be changed if it is not written down. That is why people say in anything...put it in writing!!! that means it will not change period. It like giving a pigeon flier a score card and saying you got 110 but not writing anything down....how long do you think the score will remain 110. Writing does nothing but keep everyone honest.

The standard will not change the breed if you let it....The standard should be strict and strict forces you to breed for the best. Again..the only people that will complain are the ones with inferior stock, want the easy way out...and to score more points like someone said or last but not least just cant breed animals..that is why there is always somebody on the bottom....that is just life.

Now...do you honestly think the NBRC who wants the breed to be the fastest, deepest, best kitting, snapping out facing the right way, excellent wing position...birds that look awesome from every angle...would lower the standard...NOPE they will make it so that we all understand that a good pigeon does not come easy and only the best should make it to the top...not a bird that has an issue or two...I have a car that has a couple issues....and I have a car that has no issues...what do you want.

DO you think we would ever allow a standard to where the roll and not flying would be the norm...sloppy crap rollers that tail ride out of the roll...NO I dont think that will ever happen..the club is to big to let it happen

Again put a standard on paper not in the individual mind


Rock and ROLL

Paul
donnie james
1120 posts
Aug 05, 2010
2:55 PM
hay paul,
i agree with you but i think the old times and new fantcers is going to have trouble with it because the old times is set in their ways and the new fancters don't know as much as they should since they are just getting into the hobbie/sport and i think if the nbrc would set a stander like you said its going to years and years to come together and i hope i didn't make you mad on your thoughts
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
fhtfire
2584 posts
Aug 05, 2010
3:11 PM
Quoting jon
- "How many fliers (new) get so confused on what they shoudl be breeding for when 50 "individuals" are giveing 50 answers and 50 judges are judging 50 different ways based on the judges standard...."

Paul I dont think creation of a written standard will solve this. I also dont think there is really that much or that wide of a difference in opinion of what great rollers are. It is in the application of the standard that differences lie. It is how low one is willing to go and still consider acceptable. Most every judge I have met had a very similar description of 'the ideal' but several varied in where they drew the bottom line and were willing to score. Any new flier that is willing to be open minded and seek to improve will learn by observation what greatness is and strive towards it. If they arent open as a beginner, it is pointless to try and educate them anyway.



Great then you just answered your own question..if everyone has the ideal and I am sure mine is right in line with yours.....then there should not be a problem accepting it in writing....all we will do is put down the ideal in writing...on paper..the contract...once and for all eveyone will read the same thing..same words..same goal...It is a problem Jon..that is why other organizations have standards in writing....it stops debate....Most know what looks good and what looks bad...a swedish babe in a bikini looks good...a 400lb trailer park chick smoking a cig and barefoot looks bad...but to some very few they both look good..just like faciers....that is fine....they can choose to like what they want...but again the majority say heck no.

The standard is nothing more then Blue Prints to an acceptable pigeon.

rock and ROLL

Paul
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Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 3:35 PM
fhtfire
2585 posts
Aug 05, 2010
3:21 PM
Paul,

I am surprised you being a teacher would not want a detailed standard. No offense but google other breeds and read the standard....they are exactly how you say we should not go.....The standard is made to cut debate...to draw the line in the sand and say this is yes..this is no...black and white...no gray.....a well written standard will cut the gray area and not allow debate...and I am talking debate on what should be bred from ...that is the cut and dry part....debates on what looks better () or A or H or 45.26 degree wing position..does not matter that is personal preference...but they would all be acceptable positions...but you will know for fact in a standard that some things are deemed UNDESIRABLE...and all that means is this..."hey fancier" what you have is a good bird that has some good traits but your bird with an undesirable trait should not be bred from...why you may ask...because there are better pigeons out there...our standard is not beyond reach...it is firm and if you follow the standard young skywalker....you will in time achieve the standard just follow the directions put fourth....then the standard will continue for generations.

Read some standards Paul.....Try..La Mancha Goats..good one because they have a huge standard on the ears...they CAN NOT have wattle or an earlobe...reagradless of pedigree or other factors....Try Field Lab and Show Lab, Try Black ANgus Beef...or Texas Long Horn Standard...they have detail in all the standards...why...no questions should be asked my friend....I did not have to ask or debate on how my BBQ was put together and I know how it is supposed to look from every angle and where the knobs go...but I will notice a lid on backwards, plugged gas line but still works..or has a dented corner..but looks good from certain angles...you have to have detail my friend.


Again..it is only putting on paper what most already believe.

rock and ROLL

Paul
fhtfire
2586 posts
Aug 05, 2010
3:29 PM
Donny,

No problem Bro...but guess what...I have heard do it a couple of years since 06...it needs to be done...its kind of like having a baby..there is really no good time to have one.....and you can talk yourself out of it pretty easy by saying its not the time.


Donny...I have experience in this and I know what needs to be done...it solves problems...I have never seen so much debate in all my life in a animal arena...and the debates are all over individual feeling on what is good or bad.


The fact is Donny...I have friends that raise Champion Rots, Champion Visla, Champion Goats, Champion Swine, Champion Beef, Horse Racers, Cutting Horses, Bull Riders not including athletics...and they all cant believe how much we argue over things that should not even be debated.

No worries

rock and ROLL

Paul
fhtfire
2587 posts
Aug 05, 2010
3:34 PM
To all...

Here is an easy way that a master breeder mentor of mine explained to me.

Think of a breeding standard as such or think of the acceptable levels of a breeding standard as you only being allowed to pick 4 or 5 animals to breed from....and this is for the future...you see..you have to build and arc and you are in charge of XYZ breed....what you pick has to be the best because the betterment of the breed is your hands only. What you bring forward is it.....you care about the breed so much you want the very best animals with flaws are not acceptable for the future....I smiled and said ..I get it.....every standard should be set for the betterment of the breed...every breeder should breed like they are the ones upholding the breed for future generations....you do this and all the other pieces fall into place...comp rules, show rules, better birds, more wins...etc etc.

rock and ROLL

Paul
old guy
61 posts
Aug 05, 2010
4:15 PM
I think most flyers are apolitical. They put up their kits and hope the judge is fair, compares all kits equally, and judges for good quality birds. Most flyers I know are not hoping that point totals are high but that they reflect the differences in quality and want the best kit to win.

While I don't want to see elevated scores, I also don't want judges to set some hypothetical ceiling on what a good kit can score or try to keep scores extra low just to impress some of their peers. The way the last two WC judges judged, 1000 plus scores would have been possible, and I think would have awarded the points if they were deserved.

I think we must judge for quality and score fairly, but I don't want the goal to just be low scores. If that is the goal, we can just go back to scoring only half turns the way the WC used to.

I have shown for many years under breeds that have had strict written standards and have served on committees that have tried to clarify and update their standard. In the end, the subjectivity, perception and interpretive ability of the judges continued to clash with the same abilities of those doing the showing. While developing a written roller judging standard is honorable and well meaning, I foresee troubled waters ahead. Wayne

Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 4:20 PM
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4396 posts
Aug 05, 2010
4:45 PM
There is NO written standard. Just some quips from a book here and there and in the minds of some(many that should be put on the kill list-LOL). The NBRC has failed to apply a standard and it was probably did on purpose as not to offend anyone. They intentionally keep many things vague for this reason and others.
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Think Outside The Box
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Nick Siders
old guy
62 posts
Aug 05, 2010
4:55 PM
Nick, Who are "they" when you refer to the NBRC. The officers are a revolving group of elected members. In any four year time period almost an entirely different group of members are serving as officers and RDs. I think you are seeing imaginary villains. Wayne
ezeedad
1119 posts
Aug 05, 2010
5:12 PM
Paul,
Why would you tell me to look for the standard of a La Mancha Goat,,?? Is it a performance breed??
Black Angus or Longhorn..?? Even your BBQ?? Is the BBQ a performance breed or a show breed?? (Just kidding) LOL..!!
Actually I did look up the Field Lab versus the Show Lab, and I found something very interesting..

"It seems that the standard has caused a lot of controversy among Labrador Retreiver breeders.
The Official Standard for the Labrador Retriever as set forth by the American Kennel Club was originally adapted from the English standard.

Nearly a decade ago there was some dissension among parent club members (of Labrador Retreivers)in which the standard was regarded as being too general and, therefore, responsible for the increasing disparity between bench Labradors and field Labradors. This meant that the Labrador was eventually destined to exist as two separate breeds (as is true of the Cocker Spaniel, Irish Setter, Springer Spaniel, etc.), one for field and one for show. It was the proposal of the members of the parent club (who are primarily field enthusiasts) that the standard be rewritten.

In November of 1992, a new standard was proposed and again voted on. This time the proposal was accepted by a majority of members and was subsequently approved by the A.K.C.. As before, the new standard remains at the center of much controversy and dissension among enthusiasts of the breed. Though intending to unify the breed, many of us who originally supported its acceptance now fear that it has provoked animosity within the sport and, as a result, may actually be increasing the breach. It may be said, however, that a change of standard may not improve the situation as long as there are breeders who breed Labradors solely for their appearance or solely for their speed and endurance."

http://www.labbies.com/history.htm

Hmm... Soley for their speed and endurance. That seems to be the Field Labrador performance standard. Very very simple isn't it? No details either. We could almost use that one for rollers.
Paul Gomez

Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 5:14 PM
donnie james
1121 posts
Aug 05, 2010
5:21 PM
hay paul,
i agree with you its happens now but like i said its going to take a while to get everyone to agree with every thing..............
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
fhtfire
2588 posts
Aug 05, 2010
5:22 PM
Wayne,

Not a rules standard...a breed standard..they are different. A breed standard is just telling what is acceptable to stock and breed from. A standard upholds the breed as we all know and love. Standards are recomendations not law....rules have to be followed different animal....even though some things are the same.

rock and ROLL

Paul
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4397 posts
Aug 05, 2010
5:45 PM
Wayne, I am not hunting for villains. I am looking for improvements. I probably used too big a brush when painting the NBRC. I don't want a new national club started just to make improvements. I want the NBRC to seek to improve. I like and respect the NBRC and have been active in it for years and will probably continue.
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Think Outside The Box
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Nick Siders
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
925 posts
Aug 05, 2010
6:04 PM
Page 10 of the Birmingham Roller Pigeon.Written by W.H.Pensom.That's all the standard you will ever need.JDA
fhtfire
2590 posts
Aug 05, 2010
6:11 PM
JDA,

Does that standard talk about snapping out of the kit facing the right way. Does it talk about an ugly axle roller be acceptable or not acceptable. Does it say that the birds should have BOTH individual performance and team performance, Wing Position, how it starts the roll, wing switching, kitting, activity....although it is a strong base...more should be added...so a new flier can see a bird and go ok...the bird should appear to hit a wall...should go into the roll with out hesitation...we just add to Pensoms quote and put it in writing....its all about the organization adopting a standard....not go to page 10 in a book...you should go to web Page XYZ of the NBRC and see what the standard is. Pensoms standard is awesome and that is what I used when I started....but I learned more then that standard as time went on.....and those standards should not have to be found out through trial and error and time under a fliers belt it should be from the get go for new and all fliers...all I want is writing by and organization....explainining in more detail also tightens up our rules as written and give more info to the flier and more backup for a judge it keeps fliers, breeders and judges honest....it is like a house..the foundation is the Standard, Comp, rules and breeding are the walls, The roof is the continuation of the breed.

rock and ROLL

paul
fhtfire
2591 posts
Aug 05, 2010
6:19 PM
I just want everyone to know that I am just trying to explain that a standard is a good thing...and that rules and standards are different animals all together. They do work hand and hand. I feel most agree on a standard already. What is the fear of putting something in writing..the only fear is now everyone will be held accountable....I have no standard written I am just saying it is needed...I do want to write a standard and interview many fliers..comp and backyard...retired comp ..and get an idea of what everyone sees as a good pigeon to be bred from. No secret agenda...I am all for the betterement of the breed and making competition less controversial with no blame on judges or fliers. I am a straight shooter and my intentions are nothing more the betterment has nothing to do with comp just the breed.

So nobody take offense if I explain something or clarify something...most people appear to be getting rules and standards confused.

Keep the info coming...

rock and ROLL

Paul
ezeedad
1121 posts
Aug 05, 2010
6:54 PM
Paul,
A standard such as you suggest would only cloud the issue. And their is no way to insure that birds bred by any breeder would conform to the standard simply because of such a document.
Maybe the writer I cited oversimplified the Field Lab standard, taking certain features for granted, and not focusing on details. But on the other hand, I read the AKC standard and it is too detailed and is mainly applied to the showroom.

They even have rules such as "Eye rims without pigmentation is a disqualification." and
"Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification."
Do we want things like that in a Birmingham Roller standard? I don't think so.

Pensom was the most authoratative rollerman I know of. He was the son of a rollerman, and lived in the place of origin of the breed.
He brought birds representative of the best of the breed to the United States. He described the highest qualities of their performance, their physical make-up and temperment.
So if you want a more extensive standard it would be wise to get it from Bill Pensom's writings.

Pensom was very careful to distinguish between common roller and a "True Birmingham Roller", and that difference lies in the quality of their performance.
It is a great thing that he wrote what he did or the highest qualities of the breed would be more easily forgotten as it seems so many new breeders are more than willing to do.

Paul Gomez

Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 6:56 PM
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
926 posts
Aug 05, 2010
7:55 PM
Paul.... You have his book? Read the whole Chapter 2. (Performance).Then you might read Chapter12. Competition Flying.Snapping out of a roll facing the right way has always been a given.Plate rolling is on page 11.Just keep reading.JDA
glenn
286 posts
Aug 05, 2010
8:59 PM
To Paul the Firefighter.......

Pensom and a few of his friends stated the NBRC in 1961...I believe the flying standard that he had written was adopted by the NBRC....don't know for sure but I bet it was.......something to think about.....Glenn
fhtfire
2593 posts
Aug 05, 2010
9:45 PM
Glenn,

Pensoms quotes would be a basis or the foundation of a written standard...they would just be a little more detailed....little better example of the stockable bird.


like I said...I used Pensoms writings in the begining and I learned more since then.

rock and ROLL

Paul
fhtfire
2594 posts
Aug 05, 2010
9:47 PM
QUESTION TIME!!

Question 1

IF you could pick one bird out of two, both birds are equal in every way except the wing position.

One is an X and one is an H ...what bird would you pick?

Paul

Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 9:50 PM
fhtfire
2595 posts
Aug 05, 2010
9:49 PM
question 2

If you had two rollers both are equal in every way. One roller when it starts the roll hesitates then starts to roll. the other hits the roll like it hit a brick wall "without hesitation".

What bird would you prefer. The hesitation or the hit the brick wall without hesitation.

Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 9:50 PM
fhtfire
2596 posts
Aug 05, 2010
9:53 PM
Question 3

Two birds all things are equal except...one bird only performs as and indvidual but does not perform in a team setting. The second bird does both...it performs in an individual setting and in a team setting.

WHat bird do you prefer...and individual performing bird or a bird that can ALSO perform in a team setting.
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
927 posts
Aug 05, 2010
9:53 PM
Paul...X= cull.JDA
fhtfire
2597 posts
Aug 05, 2010
9:54 PM
Question 4

If you had two birds with all things equal except. One bird when it exits the roll it does a quick wing switch. The other bird snaps our of the roll without hesitation.

what bird would you prefer....the quick wing switch exit or the snap out of the roll.
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4149 posts
Aug 05, 2010
9:56 PM
@PaulG, I have reviewed a couple passages of my heavily marked up book by Pensom. Let me quote a passage or two and comment on them.

Chapter 2 PERFORMANCES Page 9 Paragraph 2:

"Any standard which exists in relation to performance, with the above exception, (referencing previous paragraph on flying tumblers)is based entirely upon bias, and the same is therefore to be condemned as not being in the best interests of the fancy."

I think it is reasonable to conclude that Pensom thought it was bad for the fancy when fanciers promoted the virtues of their own birds at the expense of the higher qualities of the deep spinner.

Here is what Pensom goes on to say in paragraph 3:

"There are also numerous fanciers who specialize in the virtues of the birds they breed and fly, even at the expense of the much higher qualities of the deep spinner. There will always be such fanciers, and it is because of them we have so many different so-called strains."

By not having or accepting a thoroughly documented standard, too many potential positive attributes are left to the discretion or bias of the fancier and the hobby is the worse off for it. It is as plain as that. That is the justification and logic for having a more thorough written standard.

I think it is short-sighted to argue against a written standard when it is obvious that it hurts us all in the long run. Our energy is better spent on discussing what performance traits do we want to see in top birds that most can agree that will best represent the Birmingham Roller.

Also, to anyone who thinks that the aerial standard was coined by Pensom, you are incorrect. In his book, Pensom is merely quoting a long-held previously accepted aerial standard coined by Lewis Wright several decades previous.
----------
FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria


The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
fhtfire
2598 posts
Aug 05, 2010
9:56 PM
Question 5

If you had two birds all things equal except. One bird exits the roll facing the opposite way it started the roll. One bird exits facing the exact same way it started the roll.


What bird do you prefer
fhtfire
2599 posts
Aug 05, 2010
9:59 PM
Question 6

two birds all things equal one bird will kit and then fly off and perform by itself. The other bird will stay in the team and perform with the team.

what bird do you prefer
fhtfire
2600 posts
Aug 05, 2010
10:02 PM
Question 7.

two birds all things created equal except one bird is consistent from start to finish in the roll 9 times out of 10 the roll excellent. The second bird has an excellent roll but only about half the time sometimes hesitation at the top..somtimes exits funky. not a snap.

what bird do you prefer.
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4150 posts
Aug 05, 2010
10:02 PM
Q1: H wing
Q2: Hit the brick wall without hesitation
Q3: A bird that can ALSO perform in a team setting
Q4: Snap out of the roll.
Q5: Bird exits roll going in same direction in which it was flying going into the roll
Q6: The other bird will stay in the team and perform with the team
Q7: Bird is consistent from start to finish in the roll 9 times out of 10 the roll excellent
Q8: The second bird controls the roll when it is landing and may only do a flip or two lands and traps
Q9: one bird is active and is involved in almost every break regardless of activity
Q10: The second bird is smooth and balanced in the roll with no wing switch
Q11: bird after a roll returns directly to the kit

----------
FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria


The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer

Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 10:15 PM
fhtfire
2601 posts
Aug 05, 2010
10:03 PM
Question 8

You have two birds everything is created equal except- One bird when it comes into land sometimes bumps or is last to land out of fear. The second bird controls the roll when it is landing and may only do a flip or two lands and traps.

what bird do you prefer
fhtfire
2602 posts
Aug 05, 2010
10:06 PM
Question 9

You have two birds all things created equal except- one bird is active and is involved in almost every break regardless of activity.. the second bird is not as active and is breaking every 5th break regardless of activity.

what bird do you prefer.
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
929 posts
Aug 05, 2010
10:07 PM
Paul....Your two birds were never equal.JDA

Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 10:10 PM
fhtfire
2603 posts
Aug 05, 2010
10:08 PM
Question 10

two birds all things created equal except- one bird during the roll has a change in speed and a wing switch. The second bird is smooth and balanced in the roll with no wing switch.


which do you prefer


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