wishiwon2
348 posts
Aug 05, 2010
10:10 PM
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Pirate Paul,
I understand what you're trying to do here and I commend you. You are very passionate about the birds and the hobby as a whole. I know what a breed standard is and why ... no need to tell me again ... However, being it is a performance standard, description in written form is difficult compared to a show and tell.
I tend to agree with Gomez on this - "A standard such as you suggest would only cloud the issue. And there is no way to insure that birds bred by any breeder would conform to the standard simply because of such a document." The best education is to go out and see birds and kits, lots of them. This will give you a more clear perspective of what is desireable and what is not more than any document could.
I am not saying Im against a written standard. I just am trying to think realistically about its value and function. If it is to solely educate novices about what makes a great roller, there are better ways. If it is to motivate breeders to produce a certain superior type of bird, it is pointless and will fail. That is what every breeder I know is already trying to do, breed the best roller he can. Like I said before, because a club promotes some document proclaiming attributes XYZ to be the most desireable, Im not likely going to change my own preferences to conform to it.
Everybody has a little different expectation, yours is very high and thats a good thing. From your post "Fast good great quality pigeons does not say anything...I have some culls right now that you can have that are fast and good and to SOME would be great quality pigeons...to me they are fast and good...but lack proper wing position and somtimes come out of the roll sloppy....or they will have one bad roll out of 10...I want 1 bad roll out of 30. but from certain angles they are fast as hell...but I want it from all angles and so should the NBRC..." Because there are SOME who would be glad to have such birds who are you or I to tell them differently, who are you or I to tell the NBRC what they 'should' want.
I think we are close in what we hope for from a bird Paul. We just differ in how we think we can influence the rest of the hobby. I believe there is a standard already in place. Every year we crown a World champ and a National champ. I understand that its not a 'breed standard' like you've mentioned ... for labs or goats or whatever ... but it is a standard none-the-less. What it lacks and I think what you're seeking is a definition of the minimum that is acceptable. I do agree that leaving it to the judge to apply their own standard opens the door wide to disagreement and inconsistency. It is unhealthy for the whole of the hobby. But I dont agree with you that there should exist a written standard for the ideal or supreme specimens
unless we have some sort of a registry that adds weight to the standard and requires breeders to conform to it to be recognized, which I something I strongly oppose.
Id be happy to tell you what I want in a roller, I think you already know. Im not comfortable telling you what you should want, or anyone else either.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4151 posts
Aug 05, 2010
10:10 PM
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@Paul Fullerton, as I look at my responses, I visualize a very good roller indeed. Keep the questions coming...
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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fhtfire
2605 posts
Aug 05, 2010
10:10 PM
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Question 11
two birds all things are equal except- one bird after a roll returns directly to the kit. The second bird will sometimes do a large loop as it returns.
what bird do you prefer.
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fhtfire
2606 posts
Aug 05, 2010
10:20 PM
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jon
you wrote..
I am not saying Im against a written standard. I just am trying to think realistically about its value and function. If it is to solely educate novices about what makes a great roller, there are better ways. If it is to motivate breeders to produce a certain superior type of bird, it is pointless and will fail. That is what every breeder I know is already trying to do, breed the best roller he can. Like I said before, because a club promotes some document proclaiming attributes XYZ to be the most desireable, Im not likely going to change my own preferences to conform to it.
Ok first off..LOL..it is not soley to educate novices it is one additional thing to educate novices. You read the standard print it take it with you and watch birds..now look at what you see and see if it matches what you read. The older flier can then also point out how to see the standard in the air. You may be one of those fliers..because I guarantee that your standard is damn close to what I come up with after doing research so you as the teacher will have hands on and a document....just like a firefighter..LOL..we have the hands on training and we also have the document training.
If a breeder is already trying to meet the standard then it will not fail it will be just an extension in words to what most successful breeders are already doing. It is not changing any standard that most go by...it reinforces it.
Jon...I doubt very seriously about what I put together you would have to change a thing that you are doing as well as Don O. Scott C. Rick Mee. KGB. Joe Urbon. and this list goes on..so you all will continue to do what you do because you have set the standards...we all pick the same type of birds....we are all striving for excellence..so the Standard will most likely not even affect most of the old timer..they are the ones that set the standard by there practices. It just putting down what you do in writing.
Remember anything from the min up is ok..so H, A low A, High H, closed A () these are all acceptable )for example that is a broad window...and its only for stock...anyway...I know you are an smart man but seriously.....it wont affect most.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4152 posts
Aug 05, 2010
10:21 PM
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@Paul Fullerton, I can see few understand that you are talking apples and they are talking oranges. WHY we should have a written standard is obvious, Pensom laid that out in his book. WHAT the standards need to be should be the focus. People are stuck on WHY. So far, with your questions and the bird that emerges from the responses is a bird that few would not want in their own kit. Keep it up buddy!
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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fhtfire
2607 posts
Aug 05, 2010
10:40 PM
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Jon
You wrote:
I think we are close in what we hope for from a bird Paul. We just differ in how we think we can influence the rest of the hobby. I believe there is a standard already in place. Every year we crown a World champ and a National champ. I understand that its not a 'breed standard' like you've mentioned ... for labs or goats or whatever ... but it is a standard none-the-less. What it lacks and I think what you're seeking is a definition of the minimum that is acceptable. I do agree that leaving it to the judge to apply their own standard opens the door wide to disagreement and inconsistency. It is unhealthy for the whole of the hobby. But I dont agree with you that there should exist a written standard for the ideal or supreme specimens
unless we have some sort of a registry that adds weight to the standard and requires breeders to conform to it to be recognized, which I something I strongly oppose.
Id be happy to tell you what I want in a roller, I think you already know. Im not comfortable telling you what you should want, or anyone else either.
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There is an unwritten standard in place and those are the ones setting the standard the champions the ones at the top..the sought after birds..they are proving that the standard can be obtained...but not easy..but a standard is obtainable. All we will do is put it on paper. You are not telling anybody what to do you are showing what is a stockable bird and here is what you should look for to get there. We should all have the definition of the minimum... it helps does not hurt. We are here to to help the breed not hurt. A standard is not telling people what to do..competition is telling people what to do...you either fly this type of pigeon or you dont win...The minimum should be set and we should not accept below minimum standards...that does not even sound good..LOL
We dont need a register...our competitions validate our abilities and I am not talking about the big flies I am talking all flies that your birds do what they are supposed to do. All the traits are performance and will be highlighted through compeition that is another word for validation.you score is the validator. Your breeding like YOU do is pretty much the standard....so your following the standard produces better pigeons for stock and then you start the cylce again...of validating your work through competition. You also validate be watching others fly.
You are comfortable with tell people what they should breed. when a new person asks you what should I look for in a stockable pigeon and asks the questions 1-11....you will answer them to your standard that just so happens matches the NBRC standard....so your advice is telling him how he or she should breed there pigeon. that is how it is all supposed to work.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2608 posts
Aug 05, 2010
11:14 PM
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jon you wrote
Because there are SOME who would be glad to have such birds who are you or I to tell them differently, who are you or I to tell the NBRC what they 'should' want.
Jon you are the implied leader. You are a leader based on your actions in competition...you have no control over that...unless you quit flying...so as an implied leader it is your duty to not tell but advise what a good pigeon is because you know what a good pigeon is..because you do well in competition...and your standards meet those or exceed those of the NBRC...and as a comp flier and a member of the NBRC you support the NBRC standard because one you follow it...you help set it by your actions so you now validate the NBRC standard. So...you are not telling people what to do you are advising people what to do...you are giving them the blue prints to a acceptable roller. it all works hand in hand.
Who are you or I to tell them differently.....well....we are the ones that have a high standard and are successful so most want to follow success...so it is us as implied leaders in breeding to let them know that culls are just that and explain to them why they are culls...they have some bad traits and are not good enough although the can do some thing well...our goal is to do all things well. So you have to look at the whole bird...just doing that is coaching not telling....the person can go home and not do a thing you said...and will most likely be at the bottom...because someone has to be there....the ones that listen to your coaching...will then follow your high standard...and the next thing you know that new guy is now a new threat.
and the birds that "they" want are the ones that meet the standard and those are what they would get from me..or you...or KGB etc etc...they will not get culls and we should tell them so...protecting a breed is ok to do.
I once had a friend tell me this...if you are picking for stock....you must have the mindset that you and you alone are the only one with the standards for success and you will only breed from acceptable birds....because if you mess up the breed dies with you...if you get greedy the breed dies with you....you get discouraged the breed dies with you....with that mindset you will have success.
That is always in my mind....and I bet in yours.
and that goes for passing on to other fliers..you get them the birds to help reach the standard.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Jon..I really like your posts and your way of thinking...I am sure if we were both holding a bottle of pop....kicking back watching a kit fly...we would already be nodding our heads in agreement...typing is so slow...LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 11:22 PM
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fhtfire
2609 posts
Aug 05, 2010
11:32 PM
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Jon
would a written document that pretty much summed up the way you do it and what you expect as a stockable bird...then what would the problem be...what would it harm? what if all the questions were answered and the minimum standard was the answers to the questions..what would be the harm. the answers to the questions are a stockable pigeon in my loft..of course depth and a couple other things would be personal preference but would not affect the overall standard at all....some may like 20' some 40 that is ok...because ones 40 is another mans 20 anyway.
Judging would be just fine too...now it would be written that a scoreble bird should exit the right direction without tail sitting ect....now the question is answered on what proper wing position is...X or better below that no score...speed is in the standard...all the rules in judging can be backed up by a standard.....makes the rules alot easier to enforce and alot easier to understand and then removes personal standards...
Judges will still have lots of control on fly height...depth and the overall quality of the kit...if anything it would not make matters worse then they are....just some thoughts...I totally understand you thinking sometimes I ask myself the same questions what gives me the right....but then I say a top quality pigeon that I know can be obtained is the reason why..LOL...
Ok..tomorrow is wife and baby time.
rock and ROLL
Paul
rock and ROLL
Paul
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James Herring
34 posts
Aug 06, 2010
5:15 AM
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A quote from the late J.F.K ( some people look at something and ask why? I look at the possibilities and ask, Why not? There are those who talk about something and take a seat, there are others who talk about something, and take a stand.) I agree with those who say a new club would have to be formed. Now, I don't have the smarts to do such a thing but, I would back those who do, 100%.
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F-5 Roller lofts.
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2010 5:19 AM
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Scott
3122 posts
Aug 06, 2010
6:50 AM
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Pirate.. an eye must be developed to see and analize quality .. many just see a bird rolling and not much else.
Tony.. I think when it came to a written standard with Pensom his fear was mediocracy being implimented .. and that is what scares me on this issue ..you allways have those that want low easy standard .. some even want culls such as axel wing and birds that can't exit the roll correctly included.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4153 posts
Aug 06, 2010
9:44 AM
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Hey Scott, I share your concern and it is fair in my view to characterize Pensom as having the same thoughts as well. This is why it is critical that the coming written standard describe only the BEST observable performance traits and features and to avoid the mention of bird in the hand observations like body shape, color, eye, feather, muffs, etc...
This is why I would support some sort of group made up of guys like you and a handful of other respected "hard-core" competitors and judges to write just such a description that would stand the test of time.
The hobby needs a new flag to rally around. One that emphasizes the flying and breeding of better rollers. We have to move away from pigeon politics and support the idea that the integrity of the Birmingham Roller breed is best maintained by having one aerial standard that will outlast all of us.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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fhtfire
2610 posts
Aug 06, 2010
9:48 AM
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Scott,
of course but a Standard does not analize quality. Judging analizes quality. A standard is not more then a benchmark on paper. Getting the boots on the ground is when you analize. A standard is just one more tool just like our wheat is a tool. Except a standard is pushing for the best and does not allow a low standard. People learn better with both reading and hands on. That is why we always refer back and fourth from this site then back to our loft. If reading was not important....Tony would not have a site on rollers.
Second...Pensom has had the fear of mediocracy being implemented and that was by INDIVIDUAL BIAS..Tony just posted it....and that is what we have now a bunch of individuals bias to what they like..like guys tha are bias toward axle roller....let me assure you a Standard is not the bottom rung scott...a standard is the top quality...like I said...you can only pick two animals to continue the breed because you have to build an arc...you pick the best to continue the breed...that is a standard...
You know if I take input from people and then write a standard and it is exactly like Jon, You, I, Tony, Joe and on and on...exactly what we do....then your fear is gone......
Again..nothing to fear but fear itself. Read the definition of breed standard..you will see it would never be mediocracy...that is not a standard.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2611 posts
Aug 06, 2010
9:49 AM
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Tony...that is what I have been trying to say.....your last sentence says it all...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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michael salus
257 posts
Aug 06, 2010
10:28 AM
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I think where you are going to have a problem with this is, WHO decides what the standard will be. Like most things in life the squeaky wheel gets the grease... meaning those that put the most into it will probably have the most to say on what the standard will be and who knows where that will lead. from what I have seen written so far we can't even agree whether the A or H or axle style is the best.!!
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MJ "Peace"
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4154 posts
Aug 06, 2010
11:07 AM
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Hey Michael, when you say "...we can't even agree whether the A or H or axle style is the best", you get into hyperbole suggesting that there is no way to find agreement in even something so mundane as what is the better rolling style. This is exactly the point, to slice and dice the issues and decide what IS and ISN'T appropriate so that it can be proclaimed for example that the H is superior to X and X is superior to the Axel wing.
Here is the process by which who gets to decide for the rest of us:
1: A collection of top fanciers familiar with what is at stake meet over time to discuss and decide what is the proper performance standard.
2: This written Performance Standard is then submitted to the NBRC and/or NPRA?? membership to vote on.
3: Should the vote come out in favor of the new Performance Standard, it is then incorporated into national and local club materials where it can be disseminated to the fancy at-large.
Ended are the countless debates and ripping of the integrity of the Birmingham Roller as an "Official Performance Standard" is now recognized and promulgated amongst all roller pigeon fanciers.
It is not as difficult as some might want to make it seem. The only thing lacking at this point is a front man (Paul Fullerton?) who will champion the movement, recruit the right individuals and encourage enough heavy bodies to back the thing and then say so PUBLICLY!
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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ezeedad
1122 posts
Aug 06, 2010
12:55 PM
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Tony,
I found your statement to be somewhat misleading. I think you agree that more needs to be applied to the "existing" standard. In fact I agree.. because the hole is not mentioned..and very probably intentionally.
Pensom promoted an earlier standard for the Birmingham Roller.
I went to the beginning of Chapter 2 to find your reference. It Read:
"Except in the case of the genuine Birmingham Roller, there is no set standard for any section of the flying Tumbler family so far (as) aerial performances are concerned"
In Chapter 1 he says "The standard of perfection is so simple of understanding that it is impossible to ignore their virtues despite the continued resistance from well meaning but misinformed fanciers."
In Chapter 3 (page 10) he says "The standard reads as follows": THE TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER..TURNS OVER BACKWARDS WITH INCONCEIVABLE RAPIDITY THROUGH A CONSIDERABLE DISTANCE LIKE A SPINNING BALL"
So there was a standard proposed by Bill Pensom.
Gomez
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2010 1:08 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4155 posts
Aug 06, 2010
1:36 PM
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@PaulG, thanks for responding, now what specifically did I say that you found somewhat misleading?
Also, I think the Lewis Wright quote that we have stands at the top of the mountain: "Inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance...". What is being promoted is to flesh out the rest of it. For example, it is better to indicate that while we DO want inconceivable rapidity, we also want it through the entire distance of the roll. A roller might give you 30 feet of good proper spin as the standard indicates, but yet fall apart over the next 10 feet. So we ADD that the roll ends like it began, as though hitting a brick wall...
I am saying that the aerial standard while it is simple enough to understand, it appears to have built in limitation in its scope by not factoring what happens the moment before the roll the style of roll and what comes after the roll.
If an X roller can have such velocity as to look like a spinning ball, but have a lesser quality multiplier than an H style roll with the same velocity, then it should be so stated in the new written Performance Standard that H is to be preferred over X especially among competition flyers as they get better scores.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2010 1:37 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4398 posts
Aug 06, 2010
2:16 PM
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Question 1
IF you could pick one bird out of two, both birds are equal in every way except the wing position.
One is an X and one is an H ...what bird would you pick?
Answer: H
question 2
If you had two rollers both are equal in every way. One roller when it starts the roll hesitates then starts to roll. the other hits the roll like it hit a brick wall "without hesitation".
What bird would you prefer. The hesitation or the hit the brick wall without hesitation.
Answer: Without hesitation
Question 3
Two birds all things are equal except...one bird only performs as and indvidual but does not perform in a team setting. The second bird does both...it performs in an individual setting and in a team setting.
WHat bird do you prefer...and individual performing bird or a bird that can ALSO perform in a team setting.
Answer: Team performer
Question 4
If you had two birds with all things equal except. One bird when it exits the roll it does a quick wing switch. The other bird snaps our of the roll without hesitation.
what bird would you prefer....the quick wing switch exit or the snap out of the roll.
Answer: Snaps out of the roll
Question 5
If you had two birds all things equal except. One bird exits the roll facing the opposite way it started the roll. One bird exits facing the exact same way it started the roll.
What bird do you prefer
Answer: Exits same way it started roll
Question 6
two birds all things equal one bird will kit and then fly off and perform by itself. The other bird will stay in the team and perform with the team.
what bird do you prefer
Answer: Bird that stays with kit
Question 7.
two birds all things created equal except one bird is consistent from start to finish in the roll 9 times out of 10 the roll excellent. The second bird has an excellent roll but only about half the time sometimes hesitation at the top..somtimes exits funky. not a snap.
what bird do you prefer.
Answer: The consistent bird
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Think Outside The Box
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Nick Siders
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winwardrollers
517 posts
Aug 06, 2010
5:31 PM
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Paul
Why don't you just write up a standard. Instead of Levi.. Pensom... We can call it the Fullerton Standard and this my fulfill this need you have.
Watching the NBA at times, I wish they would write up a proper shot standard. There is some bad shooters in the NBA, the proper shot technique must have not been taught or do you think they really care. Can you imagine policing a shot standard much like policing a rolling standard. Some people just want the points and careless how they get them.
Not only will you have to interpret but police as well.. good luck give this written standard a try. When you get done post it...we will see how many really think alike or will come the the same conclusion..lol
Bwinward
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2010 5:45 PM
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fhtfire
2612 posts
Aug 06, 2010
6:25 PM
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Shooting a basketball is not for the betterment of the human breed and humans are not known mainly for shooting and if you loose the shooting standard I am sure the human breed will not lose anything..LOL...nice try though.
Breed standard is not the same as any standard for competition. Different animal.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4156 posts
Aug 06, 2010
6:29 PM
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LOL, Brad there are standards when it comes to BB as it relates to shooting. You cannot "travel" on the way to the basket, goal tending is forbidden, there is a 24 second clock, cannot charge going to the hole, defensive player cannot block, 3 second rule, cannot taunt after scoring on an opponent, etc...all these rules just to score 2 points. LOL
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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fhtfire
2613 posts
Aug 06, 2010
8:40 PM
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Brad,
There would be no Fullerton Standard...it would be a standard set fourth by the NBRC and the standard set by a majority of the members in the NBRC. The standard is already there it is just no recorded. It like someone shooting a basketball from half court and recording the shot..LOL...anyway...you get input from members..members that are breeding the highest caliper of pigeon. These members have a standard to achieve that type of pigeon. The higher the caliper of animal the higher the standard. The standard would not affect you either because like Jon I feel you are one that would already meet or exceed the standard.
I would like it if you would answer the question I posted. I have a feeling that the top fliers will have the same answers. You take the answers and put words around it put a history of a pigeon before it the last paragraphs explain the breeding process and what the standard means and then define terms like "wing switching"
Then you recommend that all breeders try and meet the standard....etc. and use the standard to grade pigeons with you own eyes.
the standard is already there....and again we should not as why we need a standard..but why not...it sure as heck would not hurt.
Just so you know....I give credit where credit is due.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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RodSD
419 posts
Aug 06, 2010
8:49 PM
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I suppose there are 2 standards. One is the physical look of the breed which I hope we will not go there and the other is the performance flying standard.
I suppose the performance flying standard is to be used for better judging. That way we can minimize biased judging.
I think we should have a pool of Paul's lists of questions and answers. I think having such a rule might strengthened or even clarify stuff that are on the "gray" areas.
Question 1:
I like h-pattern. They look more beautiful to me. beauty is my guide.
Question 2:
Champions don't hesitate unless it is a result of smartness. A bird should hesitate to get out from the loft when it knows there is BOP, but not hesitate to roll. Beginners hesitate. That is normal. In competition we don't bring beginners. We send the pros!
Question 3:
A bird that can perform both as an individual and as a team is more talented. There is time to lead and there is time to follow.
Question 4:
The faster snapper I prefer. A champion don't hesitate. See question 2.
Question 5:
I am stuck on this one. Which ever is beautiful to watch is my standard. When there is a good flow of traffic, it is more beautiful and more harmonic to watch.
Question 6:
This is team performance so it must be a team performance.
Question 7:
I prefer consistent birds. It is good to have rhythm like a beat of a drum.
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RodSD
420 posts
Aug 06, 2010
8:56 PM
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Question 8:
A bird must be in control.
Question 9:
A bird must be active.
Question 10:
A bird must be smooth and balance.
Question 11:
A bird must love to kit.
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winwardrollers
518 posts
Aug 06, 2010
9:47 PM
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Lol...a proper shot doesn't go beyond the shooter himself...feet spacing/position, knees, elbow, hands, fingers. The technique of a true shoot are marked in detail, they can be found but as long as the ball goes in many players of the game could careless. My thought is that when a standard is written the minimum will be the arguing factor for those who simply careless about the breed..that is where they can get their trash point and they will be satisfied.
Paul I have a standard that I shoot for it is very detailed, but I realize that their are many that would not use my standard let alone ask what it is.
I would like to see your personal roller standard written out on paper, show us what you are talking about...Tony as well...let see what you will add or improve.
We will be waiting. Take some time...
I like a good standard the problem I see is the argue factor and delight the minimum gives to the competitor.
Bwinward
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2010 9:51 PM
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fhtfire
2614 posts
Aug 06, 2010
10:08 PM
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Brad,
That is fine...a Breed standard from an Organization is no as detailed. You as the fancier set the little pet pieves that dont affect the breed as a whole. You can also have your standard higher.
We no longer want trash points....but again..the standard is not a comp...and it is not about points...only about keeping the best moving forward in the breed.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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ezeedad
1123 posts
Aug 06, 2010
10:49 PM
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Tony,
I guess I read your statement at face value..out of context.. and with what followed I misunderstood your meaning.
Anyway... I think that Pensom's standard was meant merely to define what constitutes a true Birmingham Roller. Given that a bird has these qualities it qualifies as a B.R. If it does not spin at blur speed through a considerable distance (unclear) it is not truely a Birmingham Roller by Pensom's and his predecessors definition.
Once a bird meets those criteria it can and should be scrutinized for other characteristics that would make it better of worse, I would think... But I, for one, think that Pensom's written standard should come first and foremost. In fact, Pensom also said on page 10 that "its importance (the standard) is so great that it should never be allowed to be lost sight of"
P Gomez
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fhtfire
2615 posts
Aug 06, 2010
11:04 PM
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With that said Paul...that standard has been allowed to be lost sight of....to many people are ok with a lower standard...and there are many different views of the standard....when everyone has NOT lost sight of the standard...then most are in agreement. The standard back in the day did not have to be detailed because everyone knew the standard...because it was a few that were preaching..and back then everyone would listen...now info is at lightning speed..you have trolls....you have well...lots of chiefs and not as many indians...a Standard makes the Bird the Chief and everyone else indians..so to speak....the standard should be that of pensoms with a little more detail for the evolved times...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Sound Rollers
374 posts
Aug 07, 2010
5:15 AM
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Paul, I think they have lost sight of the standard because they're to busy trying to produce a kit instead of the individual bird.
"I would like to point out that the Birmingham is bred for its individual qualities and is valued for same. It is not bred just to make up the number of a busy kit of tumblers. It has some very special characteristics of its own which have to be present, otherwise it is only a Birmingham roller in name."
WHP
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2010 5:16 AM
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Velo99
2310 posts
Aug 07, 2010
6:19 AM
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Until a judging certification is adopted these 85 posts are just mental masterbation.
Case in point. Judge A will score anything that drops 10 feet on a break. As a flyer you put up your most active birds. Judge B is a tight judge so you sort thru your birds for two weeks tweaking here and there to get the best out of your birds on fly day.
To have certified judges you have to have a certified standard. To have a certified standard you have to have certified officials to build the certified standard to certify the judges on the certified standard.
We are way behind the curve.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
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/()_)__18___()_)\__\
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Sound Rollers
375 posts
Aug 07, 2010
6:42 AM
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V99, my post wasn't stimulating. The thought is that so many people are mass producing for kit purposes you end up with a watered down product. I will concentrate on the individual roller and maybe just maybe produce a Birmingham Roller.
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fhtfire
2616 posts
Aug 07, 2010
9:34 AM
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Good post Kenny..
Answer the questions for me bro....but it is like this...the whole thing is a cycle like you explained...you set the standard...you make the rules around the standard...you validate the standard through competition or community recognition......the judges follow the standard when they judge...since the standard is in black and white....every judge and flyer then knows what the bird should do. Like face the same direction it started the roll when it exited...just as an example....you can then have a judge clinic and discuss the standard.
I have a hard time wondering why people would fight something that once and for all would raise the bar...put it on paper...help clear up gray areas...better the bird.....assist fanciers in what should be put in the stock loft....and pretty much validates everything.
I just think it is a lack of understanding of the true meaning of a breeding standard...not a judging standard..breeding standard.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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ezeedad
1124 posts
Aug 07, 2010
10:57 AM
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Right Paul,
The existing standard has been disregarded by too many and I there may be many that don't know what the standard is. I believe that when Pensom wrote his book he found it very necessary to clearly state the qualities mentioned in the standard as those that seperate the BR from the other existing rollers.
In the United States and Canada the rollers prior to Pensom's introductions were bred to fly high for longer periods of time and to roll very deep. These were the North American Rollers... also there were Whittinghams and Fireballs. Pensom needed to use a standard which would distinguish Birminghams from other breeds and to make it clear what qualities seperated them from the rest. Since rollers in general share many qualities, perhaps he found it unnecessary to include all but the most basic.
Pensom wrote a lot of articles in the journals of his time, and when you write something, you put yourself "out there" open to the scrutiny of any and all that read what you have written.
I am certain that he thought long and hard before he forwarded the standard in the form whith which he presented it. He also described H style wing position and the presence of the hole... but he didn't include these in the standard. These qualities and others, such as you have mentioned, would make a more highly refined Birmingham Roller, but without the standard's qualities it is a common roller.
P Gomez
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4404 posts
Aug 07, 2010
12:10 PM
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"The hobby needs a new flag to rally around. One that emphasizes the flying and breeding of better rollers. We have to move away from pigeon politics and support the idea that the integrity of the Birmingham Roller breed is best maintained by having one aerial standard that will outlast all of us."
That is it!
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Think Outside The Box
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Nick Siders
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ezeedad
1125 posts
Aug 07, 2010
12:52 PM
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John,
I have agreed with your posts very much. There is a conflict between breeding purely for the standard or individual and breeding with kit competition in mind.
Breeding large numbers in order to field large enough kits means that in addition to breeding the best at ones disposal, other pairs will be put together to produce the neccessary quantity. Then, when the "breeding season" is over, the best pairs are broken up due to lack of space. So the potential of the best is limited.
Nick.... Well said..!!
Gomez "The other Paul"
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fhtfire
2617 posts
Aug 07, 2010
2:54 PM
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Paul,
You last line says it all...the standard would make a highly refined roller....a highly refined roller is what should be in the stock loft....that is why out of 50 birds most only pick one or two for stock..why....they are highly refined.....the common roller is the team bird....the comp bird...that is why Comp rules and Breed standard are different in every way but do work hand and hand.
I think we are talking the same language...when all is said and done...MOST will accept the standard because most are already doing it...again the ones that complain are the ones with poor stock, want the easy way, just dont get it...or just like to complain.
I have seen it so many times.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2618 posts
Aug 07, 2010
2:56 PM
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PLEASE EVERYONE ANSWER THE QUESTIONS PLEASE>>>
rock and ROLL
Paul
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4406 posts
Aug 07, 2010
8:58 PM
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n Chapter 3 (page 10) he says "The standard reads as follows": THE TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER..TURNS OVER BACKWARDS WITH INCONCEIVABLE RAPIDITY THROUGH A CONSIDERABLE DISTANCE LIKE A SPINNING BALL"
He does not say what wing positions are acceptable nor does he tell us how far is a "considerable distance". Doesn't even mention kitting abilities. The "standard" is incomplete. Needs to be defined and refined.
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Think Outside The Box
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Nick Siders
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rollerpigeon1963
316 posts
Aug 07, 2010
10:02 PM
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Paul,
You and I have been in many a backyards. And if you see a out bird and then a couple that roll out of the roll the wrong way. And/or hic-cup during the roll your going to tell this man that he dosen't have true birmingham rollers? There has been one or maybe two kits I have seen that didn't have a little flaw. So if your wanting these standards affixed to a bird your going to have to fly individual birds kits. You know like two blue check selfs and one white flight or two white flights to a solid flights. And to watch this bird for 20 minutes or so and if it makes one mistake it dosen't fit the standard? This would be very hard to get started and would be a hugh task at hand to get others to follow along. Just because one mistake can make you or break you.
Don't get me worng but I don't think others will like the idea one mistake can cost him the name of a true birmingham roller.
You and I both know that birds have a mind of there own and they might wing switch right in the middle of a roll the 50th time out.
Paul you now I'm not complaining just giving you true everyday events that could happen. Just take for example your bird is doing great and comes into a very hard spin. One that you never seen before and was pretty awsome to watch. But after his spin he flys around and looks like he gathers himself and gets back into the kit and never rolls again. You know there is something that has to be wrong with him and you go check him out. He has blood in his eyes! well since he was a out bird for a few minutes does it make him not a true birm? because he didn't roll for 15 minutes during his fly time make him not a true birm? The blood in the eyes isn't his or your fault but it does happen in some families so what do we call them? Just asking because it will be asked down the road. Because some don't like my judging because they say its to tight. I don't think its to tight its what I see. Its seeing the good and the bad. This will be tough brother but I agree we all need to be on the same page and be looking at it for what it is and can be.
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http://rollerpigeon1963.tripod.com/
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fhtfire
2620 posts
Aug 08, 2010
12:26 AM
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Brian,
The breed standard has nothing to do with point or scoring. The standard is for breeding purposes only. It tells the minimum traits that should be used for breeding nothing more nothing less. The breed standards are blue prints or direction so to speak on the traits needed to to build a stock bird...or what the bird should have to carry the breed forward. Anytime you are breeding for the breed...you only pick the best. We do that already. It will only be put on paper.
Fly rules are different they should highlight the standard but they do not because there is no standard by the organization that conducts the flys.
Some things may and can be allowed in comp that are not desirable traits for breeding...like an X wing for example...could be listed as an average trait in a breeding standard but should not be bred from...but because it is average it could be allowed in comp.
As far as judging...if a bird wingswitches on the 50th roll..then I would not score it..but I would for the other 49....you only score what happens that second...a break occurs and then the slate is wiped clean again....and a mistake is not something that would not call a bird a birmingham roller. A standard does not say a bird is or is not...it only says what is or is not good for the stock loft. I will have plenty of birds in my team that wont meet the breed standard....those are the hold overs or the ones that dont make the cut. The ones that meet the breed standard are in my stock loft...the goal is to get as many in the team that meet the standard.
The standard does not focus on one bird during competition on one day..the standard is for the fancier that sees the bird day and day out and says that bird meet the standard....we all have those birds....some days birds wont meet the standard on fly day...that is just called a bad day....performance standards have to be met over period of time till maturity.
Hope I made sense. IF you see it for a standard only and not comp rules then you will embrace it.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2621 posts
Aug 08, 2010
12:46 AM
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The cool thing about a standard is that it is tight but still broad enough for personal preferences. You could have H High H Low H A High A ()...those are all acceptable traits...some will prefer H some will prefer A..some in the middle. SOme will focus on the speed ans smooth roll from start to finish and some may allow a bird a wing switch or two...some will focus on super tight kitting and wing beat...but they will all must and will meet the standard. The fancier is free to have standards within the standards. Most of us do that now...we tend to like certain things over others....I have been focusing on speed and wing positions..the other are ok...good enough to be a good kit bird...but the stock birds will have what I like...and the other traits must be higher then I accept for just an average comp bird. Remember..the standard is the MINIMUM that an organization recommends for breeding. Average traits may not be allowed in breeding but may be allowed in competition..mistakes will be allowed in competition and that is a simple deduction of points...the best kit will have the highest points and the highest kit should represent more birds in the team that meet the standard....just like now....the best will win the only difference we will know why we are winning everyone from the bottom to the top. Marching to the same drum beat.....then we can debate colors and body type..because those are not absolute...we can still debate breeding hard to soft and things like that....I see a standard...I see the NBRC taking a HUGE leap forward...with any organization that reaches maturity...you go through some growing pains..but it is all for the good of the many not the few.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Velo99
2311 posts
Aug 08, 2010
6:33 AM
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Paul
No one wants to tackle the job. It is one of those that wont be popular or easy. It will be a long and drawn out process. The only way I see it happening is for a commitee to be formed,write and implement it then amend it for a few seasons to get all of the bumps smoothed out. If we put it to a vote it will never pass. The only way to implement it is to get it past the EC. I don tthink the pres has executive order powers.
It has been a nice discussion and brings out some interesting points.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__18___()_)\__\
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fhtfire
2622 posts
Aug 08, 2010
9:50 AM
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Kenny,
I plan on writing one with input from every fancier I can get my hands on. The questions that I asked earlier are easy question to answer...and when the questions are answered you throw some words in between and you have a standard.
IT will take time and I am not going to throw just something out there and let the wolves tear into it....It will be released slow to certain individual to read it and if they agree they will sign it...then it will go to clubs and see what clubs endorse it....and so on...by the time it reaches the EC there should be enoug names and clubs that is should pass no problem.
I feel that a good standard will pass. Because i am coming to find out...most dont even know what a standard is....most think a standard has to do with allow points and scoring birds..faciers think that they are being told what to do...but most of these fanciers will not have to be told anything...they are already doing it....Everyone knows what the finished product should look like....but when its on paper it is no legite....the old dogs fear a standard that is mediocre...allows Axle rollers...and that is NOT what the standard will be...that is not what I have been hearing for the last 6 years.
I think it is a battle from lack of understanding what a standard is.....once they understand it they will say..oh thats it....that is what I have been complaining about not having....Im already doing that and more...then great...keep doing it.
Read all the posts....You get...nobody can tell me what I can and cant fly....no prob..standard does not do that......I dont want wing switching culls in the standard....wing switching culls are not a desirable trait.....I have seen fast axle wings...great does not meet the stadard..why becaues there are also fast H and A birds.....once everybody gets on the mindset that a standard is supposed to make the breeder feel that they are the only ones pushing the breed forward and if they dont follow the standard the breed will die and lose what it is known for....then eveyone will understand that we all strive for the standard...that is why we only pull one or two birds for stock a year....very few meet the standard for breeding...but the more you try and get there...the more birds in your loft will meet the standard.....it will work...its like saying round wheels dont roll....we can bitch about all the little things about wheels and split hairs...like the tire could be flat...well it wont roll unless you push it first....what if the wheel is laying down.....get my point...everyone knows a wheel will roll...but people can always argue something against a wheel rolling.
rock adn ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2623 posts
Aug 08, 2010
12:37 PM
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LOL!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2624 posts
Aug 09, 2010
3:44 PM
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Thanks Jon,
I know that some questions were the same and I did that on purpose...there is a method to the madness....I did that to see if people would choose the same thing even worded a little different. Kind of like the personality tests you take in college etc...they ask the same question many times different ways just to see consistancy and make sure a person just did not misread a question.
I had explained earlier that a Standard can have your personal standards within the standard. Like fly heighth is personal perference there is no gauge to say that birds are absolutly at a certain height. So fly height is personal preference...just like the WC judge had stated that Scotts and My birds were a little high...and Scott and I thought they were AOK..
Depth is one that I will really have to poll...I think there can be a minimum but not a maximum...because same thing...who says its 20' or 70' we all see things different...judging distance is an art form. A minimum may be the best..just in case you get that bird that can roll 60' or more without an issue...I have had them in my kits..Joe urbon saw a little hen I stocked last year...she would do all of 60' and return like a 20' roll. Joe even quoted..Holy S%*^ that bird was all of 70'..and the bird never got loose. She is turning out to be a damn good breeder.
I like your blur and counting the rotations...that is good stuff. The sinks and tail rides etc...could all be added to the exit part. As far as facing the right way...to be honest..I see it as almost against the laws of pyhysics for a bird to be spinning and face backwards...it would also have to be upside down....becuause if you are spinning clockwise and stopped you would either be the same direction you started or upside down facing the wrong direction...I think what I am saying and if you have any advice on teh wording...its the birds that snap out of the roll and there first dircection they head is not toward the kit but away from the kit and then a quick turn back to the kit...I think you know what I am talking about...facing the wrong way is not worded right.
Demeanor is personal preference and would not affect the betterment of the breed....Like Scott C. Pigeons totally act different then a Ruby/Mort on the perch..as well as a Turner and a Mason....When I had the strains...the Scott C birds seemed a like Bill C. said too...like they are drugged out..that look of strung out....the Ruby/Mort are calm..the Masons were calm...the Turners seemed very high strung but different then Scotts...basically we always have to ask...does a calm or high strung bird affect peformance or the look of the performance...If you answer is No..or cant prove then it is hard to put into a Standard.
That is what I was saying..the cool thing about the standard is the personal preferences can still be there..
You last line says it all...."I also feel there are some traits that bear more importance then others...etc etc...the key right here...rolls down or routinely bumps is highly undesirable despite of any other positive traits it may have...that is the key...on undesirable trait...cancels out all the other good traits...the Standard should be desirable traits across the board.
Jon Thanks for the question answers...
I am finding everyone is on the same page...if anything some are a little more firm..like yourself...and that is fine...as long as the standard is met...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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wishiwon2
350 posts
Aug 09, 2010
11:20 PM
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I want it known that what I described is my ideal, not necessarily what I have and routinely use. I have only flown a few birds that met all the prefered criteria well. I AM making improvements in my loft. I cull birds now that are better than some of what I started with 10 yrs ago. I do breed, raise and fly birds that a majority of them meet or exceed what I consider minimumally acceptable. From my experience they are of quality above the average roller flown and I consider them worthy of keeping to enjoy and fly and certainly to score in competition. I also still raise a bunch of no good pieces of crap, even though most of my stockbirds now are very close to the standard I described.
Paul you said, "I am finding everyone is on the same page...if anything some are a little more firm..like yourself...and that is fine...as long as the standard is met..."
If we're all nearly the same with regards to the ideal, why then does it need to be defined? We already know it and agree about it. Where I think most of the disagreement comes from amongst rollermen is the definition of the minimum standard that will be accepted and kept. THAT is where I think we should concentrate our efforts. That is what I have been trying to explain all along.
No one is purposefully choosing garbage quality to breed from. There may be some who have to use birds with some less desireable traits, because that is all they have or have left. (maybe I am more sheltered than I think) I dont believe anybody is seeking out and using inferior caliber birds in stock. Most all of us know what roller greatness is, we just dont have it in our lofts in any abundance. On the other hand ALOT of garbage is kept and flown and sometimes it is expected to be scored. There seems more misunderstanding and disagreement about where the bottom should be than the top. Not a breed standard by definition but a functional field guide.
In promoting creation of a breed standard, you point out examples like "if questioned about why a bird wasnt scored, you could pull this standard out of your pocket and there it is in black and white, it doesnt meet the standard." That is NOT what this type of standard will do. It defines the best. A judge compares how well your birds meet the description of the best. I understand what a breed standard is and its purpose. Im not trying to fight you about creating one. Im just saying I think what this hobby needs more, is something different than a breed standard. There is no written definitive minimum. We need a standard guide that explains what is not acceptable. For example; certain wing positions, slow rotation speed, substandard depth, excessive flying height, wingswitches, outflying, rolldowns and a host of other inferior qualities. Those are the things that should not be subject to personal preference. You may like and accept anything better than XYZ but anything less constitutes insufficient quality to be acknowledged.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2010 11:40 PM
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fhtfire
2625 posts
Aug 10, 2010
9:22 AM
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Jon,
Good post..every post you post has more information. The breed standard will be the minimum accepted for breeding...but will also contain "average" traits like an X wing for example. Average traits can be allowed in competition. Undesirable traits to the standard should not be allowed in competition and should be scored accordingly. There is no perfect animal...that is why a standard is just that..the minimum accepted.
So if you took an X wing as an average trait but no recommended for breeding..the rules could reflect the average trait as a scorable wing position. An axle roller for example would be an undesirable trait. THat would not be allowed in competition and should not be scored. Although an Axle wing can be fast from certain angles then you can only judge what you see....so an axle wing roller could be scored if it is at a certain angle...but that goes for any issue..at certain angles you may not see a wing switch...or may just miss the bird all together because of the fact the human eye can only target so many objects at one time and it is far less then seeing 12 bird roll.
So...with a breed standard with a minimum accepted and undesirable traits listed...then the rules can be written to the standard or certain rules clarified through the standard. The final paragraph of the standard will explain that Desirable traits are for stock purposes....average traits are ok for competitition because the average traits are your good old kit birds...undesireable traits are culls and should not be in comp or bred from.
When all is said and done they will all work hand in hand....
As far as everybody knowing the standard or the implied standard....that is fine...everyone knows you are supposed to drive 25 in a school zone...but it is in writing too. I had stated before that most of us know what the standard is...but the ones on the bottome that need to know....and when everything is said and done...you will have a standard...to assist fliers that dont have the understanding that took many 10 years to figure out...you will be able to read it..then the rules will be defined through the standard....it is the circle of life so to speak....Standard, Stock, Offspring, Comp, Cull, Standard Stock and it contines to work hand in hand.
As soon as I do all my research and I plan on bringing all these questions to the convention...then I will write a standard with assistance from you if you would be interested..I like your writing style...then the finished standard will be sent to some of the big boy fliers....for endorsement...then to the clubs for endorsement....and then to the EC with endorsements and then they can review and tweek...then it can go to a vote of the members...
The hardest thing about change is the unknown...but once you make changes you often look back and say..."why did we not change this way back when...its not as bad as I thought"...
Jon everything will be in the standard that is of concern for the betterment of the breed ...and the rules of competition that validate the standard.
I know we dont breed a ton of super star birds....that is why average traits are allowed in comp...they are the building blocks to the standard.
As far as having birds that dont meet the standard and have undesirable traits and that is all you got..that is fine....the standard is not law..so you take the best to best and continue to breed to the standard...and sooner or later you will meet that goal..unless your birds just dont have it...then you have to look for other animals...that is not uncommon for any animal breed...everyone has the breeders with top stock and inferior stock....but that is fine...there will always be somebody at the bottom looking up...at least give them all the tools to reach the goal or heck...give them the goal.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Thanks again and feel free to give me a call..530-867-2288 easier to talk on the phone...I really want to pick your brain.
Last Edited by on Aug 10, 2010 9:43 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2490 posts
Aug 16, 2010
1:40 PM
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Paul,
I applaud your efforts with this thread. Not only is there an essential need for a written performance standard in our sport, but it absolutely CAN be accomplished. Unfortunately, it will be opposed by those who prefer to keep their own standard for judging purposes, etc., as well as by those who don't really believe that they can breed to the standard. (Some men have real problem culling birds that don't stand up to the test, etc.) This should not, however, keep us from dedicating ourselves to this timely and worthwhile effort. These vague notions of personal standards, local club standards, and those written decades ago by long-dead roller men are simply inadequate in today's sport, as you have recognized. Start getting something down in writing and let's kick it around a little. I suggest there may be less difference of opinion than some anticipate.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Aug 16, 2010 1:46 PM
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old guy
65 posts
Aug 19, 2010
12:47 PM
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"You can lead an old horse to water but you can't make him drink by your standard." lol. Go for it Paul, keep it simple and straight forward. I think most of us can agree on what traits an excellent roller should have. Individual perception and style preferences will make complete agreement difficult. My opinion would be to get the standard set, uniformly agreed on, and in common use before pushing or rushing its use on all the great people who volunteer to judge our flys. Good Luck! Wayne
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