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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Birmingham Roller Purchase
Birmingham Roller Purchase
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 03, 2004
7:28 PM
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Hi!
It has been years since I have handled these birds and would like to get back into it. I live in Finley Washington
and would like to know if anyone out there raises these birds and sales them. I would like to start off with a proven pair. The nearest cities to me are Kennewick, Richland, Pasco, Yakima, and Spokane. Thanks for your help.
You may also E-mail me SKWeber@msn.com.
Shelley
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steve
Guest
Aug 03, 2004
9:08 PM
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hey guy you should check with the western washington roller club.com they will probably have someone in your area or check with nbrconline.com go to members directory
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Keith
2 posts
Aug 05, 2004
11:14 AM
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Rocky Mountain Roller Club http://pages.zdnet.com/rrollerdude/rockymountainrollerclub/
has several member in Spokane. Try contacting someone there.
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mlbroad
Guest
Aug 15, 2004
8:15 PM
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Hey,
I am looking for white roller pigeons at a fair price if you can help me please email me at marcuslbroadnax@yahoo.com. Thanks.
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fhtfire
29 posts
Aug 18, 2004
4:38 PM
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Hey,
Check out this web site. http://www.slobberknockerlofts.com
E-mail Bob he is the owner of the website. He has all the colors you could imagine. I am sure that he has white. The good thing about Bob is that he has high quality birds...his saying is "Quality not quantity". He will take care of you. Again..he breeds for quality first. Color second.
Paul
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Birdman
Guest
Aug 19, 2004
1:36 PM
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I don't have those kind of birds because I only have 2 months with my birds. I do have 2 suacidles and 4 rolldowns if you ever want to trade some birds with me. Just write again in this website and write to birdman and I will get back to you. What I want is to mix up my birds with other lofts.
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Mother lode lofts
66 posts
Aug 19, 2004
4:21 PM
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Paul one thing that I can't understand is how can you breed for roll first and color second ? if you breed for Roll only you won't have color projects and if you breed for color projects then the roll can't come first,it's imposible, not to knock Bob or what he enjoys but lets look as his breeders which he has on his site and thier discription,it's all about color first ! ,and now I also think that the new people visiting "Tonys" site need to know that the bulk of these colors come from other breeds being crossed into the Birmingham and yes some will roll I've also seen pound mutts retrieve like a Labador retriever but I'll still take a well bred Labador anyday and which is more likely to reproduce itself the Lab or the mutt? thats an easy one,another thing that has to be looked at is there is a whole package that comes with a well bred Birmingham Roller,it takes a special bird that can handle a 30-40 hard spin and have the physicle and mental strength and heart to zing back to the team like nothing happened,without this "heart" there's nothing and the "whole" package is what the well bred Birmingham has been bred solely for and is what it's known for and it is my and many others opinion that there is no room for "color" projects when trying to maintain this and this exspecially holds true on these mongral color projects,now for the new guys theres allways a hunt for qaulity birds and the best thing that they can do is educate themselfs first on the breed and on the lofts out there that may offer birds and don't believe what you read in adds or hear from "other" inexperianced people new to the sport,seek out experianced fliers and get thier imput and talk to more than just one also,just don't jump in head first blind,the other night I talked to Tony for well over an hour and he sincerly wants to help guys get started with the right stock and is serious about helping and would be well worth talking to,another sourse is the World Cup auction which is over or the NBRC auction which is in progress as we speak I know most of these guys and they generally don't sell birds,one last thing and probally the most important and that is DON"T GET STUCK ON WHAT YOU START WITH,keep in mind that many birds do some sort of roll but that doesn't make it a good one,they must roll properly like a fine athlete and reproduce the same. just my opinionated opinion here and hope it helps some.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 19, 2004 4:50 PM
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 19, 2004
4:49 PM
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Scott,
First off, I find you very offensive and a detriment to the whole hobby. I have flown many of Bob's birds and ALL have rolled well. His stock has come from Jay Yandle and James Turner. I have to assume that you think these guys have "mongrels" as well. If I was told correctly, Jay Yandle won some big fly in his area (I am not a member of the NBRC so I don't know what the right name would be for it) with colored birds. I bet that really made some guys mad who think a Blue Check is the only color that will roll.
I just think you should not spout off about birds you know nothing about. You turn more people away from the hobby than you attract with the statements you make. Just because the bird is a different color does not mean it is not a good Roller.
BB
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Mother lode lofts
67 posts
Aug 19, 2004
5:21 PM
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B.B it was not my intent to be offensive but it was my intent for people to know whats behind these birds and you brought up James Turner who I don't know and Jay Yandle who I do know,yes Jay does color projects using other breeds and works hard on color projects that roll,do they carry the full package ? I'm not sure,but I am sure that Jay will take these much further in his hands as for James Turner I've heard that he's out of birds now but for those that know him there is a lot of respect for him and his birds and what you have to keep in mind with these guys is that they also must carry lines of Birminghams for these projects and there are a few others worth mentioning along with the two that you mentioned there is also Randy Gibson and John Jones both of S. Calif.,Randy made mention to me that he's backing off of them as he felt that they were holding him back which they will ,as for these rare color birds being mongrals well B.B. I don't know what to tell you,they altered a breed using another breed as a cross,maybe it would be best to look up in "mongral" dictionary,I don't know maybe there's a more gentler name,I think that what many believe will happen here is that these birds will develope into thier own breed over time, as for "all" of your birds rolling well,hey you certainly have me there as no way do all my birds roll well I guess that there are some that would think they do but I know better,but yes all my birds do end up rolling but far to many of them are still culls do to either the qaulity just isnt there or they may be just to hot or to stiff and the same holds true when you are realistic about all familys,and no not only do Blue Checks roll nor does the Birmingham Roller only come in Blue check,the breed has a whole array of color allready within the breed and is a beautiful bird that stands on it's own and the real beauty is with a fine bred bird when everythings right on it,as for my birds,yes they are mainly hard colors along with Rec Red,Rec Red mottles ,Red Bar and red check,the hard spin comes out of the hard colors in my family and the weaker and hotter Rec Red and Rec Red Mottles keep the heat coming.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 19, 2004 6:08 PM
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fhtfire
31 posts
Aug 19, 2004
6:20 PM
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Scott,
I love you Man! did I poke you a little bit...lol! Someone asked for white rollers....I do not know anybody with white roller. But I was metioning Bob because I know that he has color and could have some white. As for quality..I have talked to alot of people who have birds from him and they like them. I think that you can have both color and quality..if you still cull hard. If you have a yellow that rolls like shit I am sure that bob would cull it...If he has another yellow that rolls good then I am sure he would breed from it. I don't know...I think breeding for both can be done...but it would give you a headache and would be a pain in the ass. It is a lot easier to pick a bird from the sky for just the roll. I was just saying that the guy wanted white. So I knew bob would problably have white. As for Bobs quality...I have a cock and hen from his breeding loft and I will not say anything either way until the birds I got from him prove it in the air with good offspring. All, I know is that I have talked to people on the phone who have birds from him and they were very happy with his birds. But I have also learned that there is a lot of "Big Fish" stories in this hobby....lol! I get your point totally and you bring up good points....Just trying to help a guy get white rollers....
Rock and ROLL
Paul
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 19, 2004
6:27 PM
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Scott,
You keep calling color birds mongrels because they are crossed with other birds. Correct?
How many generations of breeding back to rollers would it take for you to not consider them mongrels?
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Mother lode lofts
69 posts
Aug 19, 2004
7:15 PM
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Paul yea this allways gets fun,but whenever this topic come's up you can count on me making sure that those that don't know where these these so called rare color birds come from are informed,and somes not going to like it as so many times they have these birds in thier lofts and were never told the differance and they are stuck on them,Never did I say that Bobs birds don't roll well as I don't have a clue about them,but I know whats behind them and it's obvious where his focus is,is that a bad thing,not really as 99.999999 0/0 of these birds are us and us alone in our back yrads, but one thing that I am sure of is that too many don't know what a good bird is and if they don't bother to find out they will never know and it won't be learned sitting in thier backyards,like I said earlier just because a bird rolls doesn't make it a good bird by anymeans,as for white's or yellows they are allready in the breed,the problem with whites is they are prone to poor feather and Rec yellows are generally weak and I have yet to see a truelly good one although I have heard rumers of one here and there from people that know a good bird,I think common sence plays in though and Pensom hit on it also that you cannot persue both without compensating the bird and of coarse he was talking about normal colors within the breed and not the crosses,here's what bothers me the most about these color crosses,go to Bobs site and look at the web pages of others that sell birds, I'm not going to mention a name but I think that he's the only one that sell only rollers or so called rollers,look at his birds for sale and in there there's a Modena cross and what appears to be a FanTail cross,the one bird appars to be an F-1 of a color project and the other is either a F-1 or an F-2 (F-1 is first generation and F-2 is second) and there's many more further away from F-2 but the crosses are ever so obvious in many more of the others,and some poor fool is going to be suckered and buy these mongrals being told that they are something that they aren't,hell he may not even know the difference,Paul why don't you plan a trip over here in Oct.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 19, 2004 7:19 PM
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 19, 2004
7:27 PM
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Scott,
How many different breeds were used in creating the Birmingham roller?
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Mother lode lofts
70 posts
Aug 19, 2004
7:40 PM
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Personally I don't think that you can change the feather with a cross and purge the genes out of the cross,once you start inbreeding things will pop up,It's a very long road and in order to make it work you must have some topshelf pure to put into it in order to get trully good one's, same as you must have topshelf birds to make more topshelf birds in even the families that don't carry these crosses in other words you have to down breed to bring the crosses up,one color bird cross that seems much further along is Andalution,this was brought in from the homer and I think te differance is that a sporting breed was used where most the others were brought in by show or toy breeds.
Scott
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Mother lode lofts
71 posts
Aug 19, 2004
7:48 PM
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Nobody knows exactly what breeds were used to develope the Birmingham Roller as I'm sure that you know,but it is a "set" breed and I think that I know where you are going with this,all breeds were created by other breeds untill that breed is set,when you breed one breed with another what is it ?
Scott
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Mother lode lofts
72 posts
Aug 19, 2004
7:54 PM
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No Jeff you didn't make a mistake,you bought some birds now enjoy them and you'll learn a lot from them,just keep learning though and constantly work on progressing forward whether it be with those birds or others.
Scott
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Russ
Guest
Aug 19, 2004
8:23 PM
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I believe that all breeds could be considered mongrels at their early stages of development. Even the Birmingham roller was a cross of a few different breeds of roller or tumbler but was refined for it's aerial ability. Not its feather color!
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
147 posts
Aug 19, 2004
9:30 PM
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Alright! Now we got a hot topic again..lol. The one thing that never gets mentioned when discussing colors, or the crossing to get colors is that when you cross a roller to a non-rolling or tumbling pigeon, one that does not possess the (ro) gene, all offspring from that cross WILL NOT roll, tumble or do anything other than just fly. ro/ro makes a roller roll, or a tumbler tumble. The offspring from that mating then has to be taken back into a roller to get the roll back. Obviously using dominants helps a bunch as you don't have to worry about loosing the color in the process, which is probably why the andalusian/indigos have progressed so well. I have some andalusians which are 10-15 years from their original creation. By selective breeding by their previous breeders, they are some of the fastest spinning rollers I have. Not the fastest, but some are. If a person comes over, they will see some really getting with the program. But, after spending a few years with them I have noticed that while the roll has been reloaded, the heart hasn't. After the first year, they won't kit. Sure they roll great, but they tend to give up, something I hope I can work out, otherwise they are down the road. The key if you are going to bred from a pigeon of color is, like was mentioned before, is to bred it to the very best, then take the very best (kitting, heart, roll, frequency, etc) and put it on the very best non-crossed Birmingham, then repeat, repeat, repeat, all the while crossing your fingers and hoping at some point they become the "whole" package. Keep in mind that most rollers roll, but good rollers do it all!
Brian.
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fhtfire
32 posts
Aug 19, 2004
9:31 PM
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Oh man...we started the color thing again....this has got to be good 4 at least 30 more posts. Scott...you alone can at least get 10 more people to argue with you LOL! Scott, now you have Jeff all worried. If he knew the background on this color thing he would understand...that this is a no win debate! I saw the photo to on the web site...I believe it is a yellow and has grouse legs and a this tail...I thought fantail too. Anyway...any roller or breeder is a crap shoot...you could have a Check from Scott Campbell that spits out trash and you could have a Baldy from little old me that spits out a couple champions...who know...it is mother nature baby....But, a lot has to do with loft management and training...I am finding that out from visiting other lofts. Some people spend a lot of time with there birds and it shows. Feeding....flying.....vaccinating......tonics.....concistancy.......culling hard......knowing what to look for......weather.....so many things have influence on a bird and the roll. I believe you said to me that you can give good birds to someone and poor management can ruin them. Well, that is it and October sounds great!!!
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Mother lode lofts
74 posts
Aug 19, 2004
10:27 PM
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Great post Brian and I think that these posts have been kept in a good light (well B.B. slapped me around a bit LOL) that some can learn from and be able to make thier own call on the direction that they want to go and will at least know what they are getting into,and a good honest report on your experiances and I noticed the same at lofts where I have seen these birds in the air , but I also think that it's worth mention even with the best families they can loose the whole package if selected and bred wrong.
Scott
P.S. my money says that you would have a hard time even getting them to fly as F-1s
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 19, 2004 10:32 PM
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Mother lode lofts
76 posts
Aug 20, 2004
9:38 AM
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Paul this has nothing to do with argueing nor should it,all it is, is basic information that people need to be aware of so that they can make thier own choices,some won't care but there are many that will.
Scott
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Steve Sissel
Guest
Aug 20, 2004
5:28 PM
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Fellas ,
I have been down the pike.
I got birds from Pensom, Evans, Palona, Orr and others when I was a kid and I have been to alot of lofts.
I have rollers that are from at least 4 World Cup winning families now and it is not easy to raise a good kit each year out of a hundred or 2 youngsters.
I was at Turners back in the 80's and talked to him about his color projects. He said he could get the roll from the crosses but when he bred them more than 2 times he said the goods would leave.
Jay said some of his better birds were not from his color project birds.
He sent some pictures of his favorite birds he flew in the 11 bird kit he did well with and they were blue checks and red check badges.
I love to look at beautiful rollers of different colors, but I have found out through the years some colors will not hold up due to the feather quality of certain colors.
It is what your priorities are that you set for yourself as to what your future breeding program will be.
All colors will roll but will they reproduce again and again good quality,fast, frequent spinners?
BB , Scott is not trying to discourage or be negative.
He is speaking from experience the downfalls of the roller game.
And to the young man that bought the rollers from slobberknockers.
You will know after you have raised a kit or 2 and bred the offspring if you made the right move.
I don't know if the rollers they sell are good or not, but I do know if a person gets out and watches kits of birds in the air and aquires birds from sources that do good in the flys will have a better chance of getting quality rollers that can spin and reproduce.
Later fellas
Steve
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Phantom1
1 post
Aug 22, 2004
7:34 AM
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I've been giving this a lot of thought - whether to engage in this debate/conversation. However, the "tunnel vision" or "narrow mindedness" of some posts have compelled me to express my OPINIONS to this age old topic.
First and foremost, I want to make it clear that I do not, nor have I ever, or ever intend on flying Performing Rollers competitively. However, to those that believe that ONLY Blue-Checks and Red-Checks produce the very best performing rollers, I strongly disagree with. I've witnessed many rollers in various colors out perform basic colors such as blues and reds.
Lets take a stroll down memory lane for a moment. If ALL pigeon breeds originated from the Rock Dove over 2000 years ago, then logic tells us that through selective breeding ALL patterns and EVERY color came from this species. Therefore, all the genes that are necessary to make the colors we see in breeds today existed in the Rock Dove from the very beginning. True, there are now certain phenotypes (physical expressions) that we only see in certain breeds. For example, Toy Stencil or Oriental Frill Stencil. In today's world it would be impossible to obtain these colors and patterns in the roller without crossing them. But it is important to realize, the Rock Dove only came in two phenotypes (Blue-Bar and Blue-Check). I wonder what these people crossed them with to get Red, Brown, Opal, Reduced, Milky, Faded, or even Bronze. Was a chicken or some sort??? I think not.
The blessing with we have with the breed "Brimingham Roller" is that is rolls due to an inate ability. The day it hatches, it either knows how to or it doesn't. We must breed selectively in order to keep that inate ability. But please understand - There is a huge difference in an inate ability and a gene that pre-determines a physical ability. Speaking as a psychology major, I feel I have ground to stand on when I say this. We are born knowing how to eat, suck, and go potty. We later learn how to harness our physical abilities and mold them into occupations or talents. A gymnast isn't born on a balance beam.
Now back to my point. Consider for a moment produce. Because someone develops a hybrid cotton or corn seed to allow it a better ability to grow in a certain environment or produce a greater yield, doesn't mean that it is still not cotton or corn. Call it an F1 or a F12 - whatever - if it looks like corn, smells like corn, tastes like corn - it's still corn!!! Same thing with a roller. The responsibility lies with the person that decides it wants to cross a roller out to something else to breed back to where it is once again a true roller - BEFORE he/she begins distributing the birds as F1's or F2's to the unknowing buyer. But for someone to be told, taught, or encouraged that ONLY certain colors are rollers (i.e. Blue, Red, or Rec. Reds) is drastically hurting the promise of a future to this breed and possibly the hobby. It sure could be discouraging to the 12 year old reading these posts that has a kit full of Almonds and Grizzles, and learn that they're only MONGRELS!
To conclude - to those that believe that TRUE PURE BRED Rollers only exist in certain colors - Blue-Checks, Red-Checks, and Recessive Reds....I encourage you to explore and educate yourselves with some basics principles of genetics and order of dominance of colors, which have no direct correlation to ability or performance. It is only through selective breeding over these many years that we have what we have today...Far from the Rock Dove I like to think (Indigo, Opal, Reduced, Faded, Bronze, Milkly, etc.) For those that have AWESOME Blues and Reds that are consistent and your're hapy with, Congratulations!!! I sincerely applaud you and your efforts in maintaining the promise of a tomorrow with the Roller, and something you enjoy feeding and looking at every day.
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Mother lode lofts
78 posts
Aug 22, 2004
11:30 AM
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Phantom were not talking about a hybred plant specie here for better food production and in no way does it relate to the breed of the "Birmingham Roller" unless your point is that crossing in some non-sporting breed has some how helped the breed in the performance Dept. for which this breed was bred for,my opinion is that it would be a pretty silly aurgument,and as far as reaching towards the Rock Dove and mutant genes that derived from it over the past thousand years and bred towards to develope particular breeds and then out of these more breeds were developed both Toy and sporting again has nothing to do with the breed of the Birmingham Roller at this point in time nor would it have a 100 years ago and that is again unless you are implying that crossing in a non-sporting breed to the Birmingham Roller has enhanced it's sporting value's,no the breed does not produce these colors, factors or what have you that you have mentioned and it is a fact that the Birmingham Roller has been crossed onto other breeds for only one purpose and that is to change the color factor or what have you and this is still mongralizing of the breed is still going on today, now lets look at the Birmingham Roller,basicly it is a breed that has bred towards a fault,that fault is rolling but it has taken much more than that as a bird bird must also be able to have the right type,balance,proper muscle in the proper areas and the mental fortitude to handle what we ask it to do,the mental strength in proper balance with the proper physicle conditions is what has been developed into the breed that we call the Birmingham Roller,the physicle being that athletic qaulity for the ultimate speed and qaulity and the mental for control of the roll and to keep the fear of the roll under control,now there are poor examples of the breed and there are excellent examples of the breed just like any breed,personally I think the roll is the easiest to obtain when breeding these mongral crosses to the Birmingham Roller it is the other caractoristics that make it extremly difficult,now as far as candy coating the polluting of the breed and opening peoples eye's to these crossbred mongrals as being detrimentle to the sport,how do you figure that informing the uninformed the truth that these so-called rare color birds are mere mongrals as far as the breed goes are detrimental to to the hobby,My view is those that are polluting the blood of the Birmingham Roller and passing them off to the new guys as something that they aren't are the one's that are detrimental to the sport and if you say that a color crossbred bird that has had a non-sporting breed bred into it is the best that you've seen I would venture say that you are campareing to a very poor example of the breed or you just don't know what a good bird is,lets not forget that it takes a real Birmingham roller to put roll into these mongrals and in order to do this the Birmingham that is used for this has to be down bred to the lowest order,but you say it's better,I say impossible,sure you may end up with one that just picks up far more of the Birmingham side of the gene pool but what still lays in the gene pool ? Phantom what concerns me most about being detrimental to the hobby is those that try to throw spin and puposely and deceitfully try to mis-lead the new comers (and 12 yr olds) to the sport on the truth of these crossbred color birds this is a very small world now when it comes to this breed and this breed stretches around the globe and only here in the U.S will you find the polluting of the breed and these so called rare colors sure there may be a few out of the main stream but the guys that I know in England have never heard of such a thing and they breed and fly the breed for only one purpose and that purpose is performance! and there is no room for careing about what color it is even for colors and factors that are allready within the breed let alone one that is derived from another breed,now for my story,up until 97 I didn't know the differance either and just played in my backyard ignorant of the the birds and what was behind them not knowing that they were not what I had been led to believe that they were,once I fell in with real rollermen I was asked "do you want the real thing or do you want to play around with these mongrals" and thats when I was educated about the breed, first off I didn't know that they were mongrals and yes I was devistated and mad,who was I mad at ? it wasn't the messangers thats for sure I was mad at the guys that decieved me and stole my money selling me something that wasn't what it was supposed to be and once I disposed of everybird in my loft and was put onto the right path by these guys only then could I know the true beauty of the breed and I will be ever thankful that I didn't waste any more years.
So Phantom in ending you can try as hard as you can on trying to confuse and trying to spin the truth by talking about the Rock Dove and Corn and Cotton and that the best that you've seen is a bird that has a showbreed crossed into the Birmingham,or the 12 year old thats been decieved and that him learning something about the breed somehow will hurt him, but myself and countless others will allways be here to set the record straight and it's really quite simple,we have the set breed of the "Birmingham Roller" and we have the cross-bred birds that some don't want the truth put out on and think that it's perfectly OK not to inform the new people to our sport about these bird and where they can make an informed decision on what goes into thier lofts .
Scott
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 22, 2004
12:07 PM
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How does your WC record compare to John Jones of the San Diego area? Are his color birds the type of mongrels you are talking about? Would a 12year old go wrong if starting out with John Jones birds?
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Phantom1
2 posts
Aug 22, 2004
12:54 PM
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Corn, cotton, Rock Doves, retrievers...how do you want to play the game? I'll pose a very simple question to you Scott. It's very clear to me that you've traveled the circuit and have done exstensive homework and research on the "Birmingham Roller". Did you get your stock from Birmingham, Enlgand I even wondered to myself. Because it certainly sounds like you've got some top notch stuff! I'm not kidding whatsoever!!!
Question to all: In what year did someone blatently say that the roller was a breed? From that point on, what colors and patterns existed in that breed? Perhaps someone that reads this can thoroughly educate me, because it seems that I've missed the boat. Nah...
Though you make a very valid point as to the mental and physical attributes that make a roller a roller, you seemed to have missed my point about simple genetics and the ways you can manipulate them without having to CROSS into another breed. The genomes already exist in the roller to do different things. That's why I pose the question: When and what color or colors did the Birmingham Roller have in it when it was declared a breed? Simple question for those that have done their homework, and I AM asking only for educational purposes - not to add fuel to a fire.
A final thought for now though - just because a roller isn't a blue or a red, doesn't mean it can NOR should be called a mongral. If there is reason to doubt what the bird is, call it a hybrid or an F1, but don't insult the bird or it's owner, as he or she may know no better, nor care. I pity those that told you what your birds were and asked if you if you were ready to get THE REAL THING. It's clear that you're more careful about aquiring birds today and hopefully have learned from the experience.
Oh, for whomever posted about some birds being crossed with Modenas or Fantails...I personally know the man, and unfortunately, to validate your point, he doesn't keep any other breeds of pigeons. I can also personally attest to the fact that he has obtained the best stock possible from proven breeders that have competed in the little roller gatherings. And to add...how would you know what these crosses were, unless you yourself have bred them or know somoeone who has? Don't assume based on the appearance of a bird or the color of a bird that it is a cross. They may be able to out perform any World Cup bird without flenching. There is always the possibility.
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Mother lode lofts
79 posts
Aug 22, 2004
2:19 PM
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Oh now you want to confuse the whole topic with personal fly records LOL John pulled a 4th in 94 and a 10th in 96,was this before he got heavy into the color? ,I don't know,where would such a talanted breeder and flier as John be if he wasn't side tracked with this stuff ? and where would his fly record be without the Bob Scott and Reed birds? only John can answer these questions and the same holds true to all the guys that play with color can do do decent in the big flys and that is they all have the pure lines and the color lines, the best I've done is a 12th in 03 as far as the W/C,and my overall fly records in the Nationals and Calif. State aren't bad for the 6 years that I've been competing but hey I had lost time due to a mongral loft as I mentioned in my last post LOL but it's pretty meaningless in this debate, Actaully I judged John for the State fly here a few Months ago and John truelly love's his color birds and as he told me "I love making differant colors and can't wait to see what come's out" he also has birds from Bob Scott and Norm Reed,I saw a lot of decent roll over there but I don't have a clue as to whether it were his color birds or the Reed or the Bob Scott line's or the combination of all of the above nor in the short time that I was there could I tell if they had it together ,but one things for sure Johns a talanted breeder and flier, now I ask you this,does the breeding of pairs for particular colors hold someone back or move them forward ? what if those particular colors are derived from another breed ? does it move you forward or hold you back ? of course when you breed for anything at all except for performance it holds you back and when you pollute the gene pool with another breed it will most definetly play into the breeding,as for would a 12 year old benifit from such birds personally I think that a 12 year old would benifit from any pigeon and that includes street pigeons because first there has to be a love for the pigeon itself and I think that any pigeon will do for this purpose from that point on it's up to him or her to go which ever direction they choose but lets make sure that they have the knowledge make those choices and not be ignorant of what a breed is in the first place and the same holds true for any newcomers.
Scott
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Mother lode lofts
80 posts
Aug 22, 2004
3:13 PM
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Phantom I expected that questioning the Birmingham Roller as a breed would come's next as the only ones that want to throw it out are those that play with the color crosses and is a spin that is used constanly,then you want to imply that these abnormal colors and factors were allready in the breed and then to go on and say that that to call F-1s as mongrals are insulting,what are these F-1s that you are referring to ? are we talking about the F-1s being from two different breeds ? just more spin here Phantom these colors and factors did not mutate out they were put in as I know that you are aware of,there are some that claim that there are particular factors that came from mutations but it's funny that only questionable lofts end up with mutaions and no you cannot manipulate just any family of birds geno's to produce these things unless the family used is questionable, as far as where my birds came down from,they are down from McCauly via Sparks,Kieser,Borges and have been inbreed/linebred heavily for the past 20 something years,as for the Birmingham Roller only coming with blue check and Red Check paint job this just isn't true and no one I've heard has made such a claim and it would be wrong as it just simply not true, the topic here is and was is simple and that is that other breeds were crossed into the Birmingham Roller to obtain these toy color and factors and no amount of spin that you throw out to confuse this will change that fact and we won't even touch on that webpage and the obvious crosses showing on many of the birds there as for these color crosses winning the W/C,it will never happen unless the Birmingham is there in force holding them up.
Now I'll end with this,this is a good debate and I'm enjoying it but no matter what smoke and mirrors you guys want to use to confuse the new people to these birds I'll do my best to make sure that they have the truth that surrounds these so called rare color birds so that they can choose thier own paths with these birds
Scott
P.S. how about your full name
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
151 posts
Aug 22, 2004
3:49 PM
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Phantom, to answer your question about the colors of the roller, all literature I have read of the development of the Birmingham roller in England and those same that were then exported to the US, were either ash red or blue based which also included spread, dilute, grizzle, pie bald kite bronze and recessive red. There will always be some speculation that some of them could have carried the Almond gene since one of the birds used to make the birds that eventually made the Birmingham roller had almond as a color. If you look at the flying Wests, Tipplers, Comp Tumblers, Mag Rollers and Birmingham Rollers, all extending from the same performing source near and at the turn of the century in England, they were all basically the same colors or combination of colors as I mentioned. That can only be based on what I have read and the photos I have seen of the birds as none of us were there. The issue isnt what color a bird is. The issue others are trying to make is that 99 percent of the rollers of fancy color are the result of cross breeding. Some people are purists, some oblivious and others could simply care less. It's easier to make a milky spread blue gazzi modena roll 20 feet as it is to change to minds of those who are passionate about viewpoints.
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Phantom1
3 posts
Aug 22, 2004
4:08 PM
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Scott,
Smoke and mirrors...I like that! It's cute, in your own way. Shows a since of humor! Question, and I want an answer...since you seem to be the authority on genetics and the "Birmingham Roller"....what are "acceptable" colors in the "Birmingham Roler"?
I doubt you can answer this with absolute confidence, so I'll continue to try to make my point that you have inadvertantly missed time and time again.
Without knowing what's behind a bird genetically (NO PERFORMANCE INVOLVED-DIFFERENT DISCUSSION ALTOGETHER), how can you say, without a doubt that it IS OR IS NOT a ROLLER????????? You can't! Based on what you've avoided thus far, I feel that you really don't have a good idea what a Blue-Check Cock can carry or a Blue-Check Hen can carry...in any breed! Off the wall...where did Recessive Red come from? You insist that if "color" (whatever that is that you may be elating to) is on a roller, it's a 100% pure cross-breed (i.e. Mongrel).
You have a family of birds that you feel confident with, based on what you've been told, that has been bred through selective breeding for 20+ years. I, in no way, knock what you have going. I too have a family of birds that I've bred from for over 15 years from PURE Pensoms. They have produced some great colors over the years and I've worked with that. However, to imply that because someone doesn't get birds from someone that has developed a family of rollers, and someone hasn't obtained these said rollers from that person, and that there happens to be a pretty colored bird in the mix, that they've been crossed with something else is PURE CRAP!
Smoke and mirrors: Again I applaud you for attempting to be the authority on pigeon genetics and a reference for all - prior to making a purchase. Whether it be a "backyard pigeon breeder", a "Master breeder", or "Competitive Flyer", people are going to have what they like to feed and enjoy watching. Your pompous and self-righteous attitude says enough for me to state you do not stand for anything but for what you believe to be true, OR what you have been taught, told, and reinforced. In my opinion, it's a sad situation. Those that are new to the hobby, or looking for guidance are going to have a very narrow mind based on the impossibilities that you've laid out before them within these posts.
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Mother lode lofts
82 posts
Aug 22, 2004
6:27 PM
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Getting a little bit nasty there arent you Phantom LOL,expert on the "Birmingham Roller" not even close but you aren't implying that it is a breed "now" are you ? and yes Phantom as far a new flier getting thier start from an established flier and family that is excactly what I am suggesting to the new flier and I know of few that would not suggest this,actually I don't know of any that are worth listening to that would not suggest this,Ok now on the Standard colors of the Birmingham Roller I suggest you new fliers pick Pensoms book,winners with Spinners or any of the books out there on the breed,there is also a discription of the early imports in a couple of them,it doesn't matter which one because you will see the same from book to book,but I'll go ahead and take a quick stab at it,Yellow,Lavander,White(yea I know not a color),Blue Bar,blue check,red bar,red check,and makings of all,mottles,badges,Rec red,Rec Yellow,oddsides,saddles,yea I know I forgot something,I might add that everything you will see there is the same that you will see in every family of non crossed "Birmingham Rollers" here and accross the globe as far as the breed goes,and no you will not see the toy breed colors but you will see that they come in wide array of beautiful markings,Ok phantom I'll bite,what did you have you have pop up out of your pure Pensoms,why don't you tell us a little bit about your birds and the background your statement about not getting birds out of establised familys has me curious,now as far as your "non performance" quiz that answer is simple,I don't know, Rec Red is a mutate though I know that and runs heavily in most familys of Birminghams and goes way back into the breed and I know that my checks throw them,but as far as knowing anything about color genetics yea I'm dumb as a board as they play no part in the performance of the breed of which all that I care about,is there anything that I left unanswered ? I'm really having a hard time following you here,you wouldnt be so ballsy and doing something so outlandish to suggest that other breeds were not used in these color projects that are from outside of the breed from the near past on to today are you ??
Scott
Ps who are we talking to here ?
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 22, 2004 8:19 PM
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 22, 2004
7:20 PM
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How about a John Jones VS Scott Cambell fly off winner take all!!!
Then we can find out what colors or non colors of pigeons are better!!!!!
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Mother lode lofts
84 posts
Aug 22, 2004
7:45 PM
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that would be interesting but what would it proove unless he flew "all" color birds ? besides that one fly doesnt mean much unless flown under the same conditions to many variables can play in,are you speaking for John ?
Scott
PS now who the hell am I talking too LOL you guys are coming out of the woodwork LOL
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 22, 2004 7:53 PM
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fhtfire
36 posts
Aug 22, 2004
8:25 PM
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YAHOOOOOOO!
This is getting good. But I have a question. I have a black hen with white flight and brown bar cock. So far they have spit out a Brown bar like the father, brown bar with white flight, and a check with white flight, and the last baby is a yellow. From head to tail yellow. It is only 2 months old and just started flying so I do not know if it rolls or wil roll. I called the breeder of the hen and cock and he checked his records...he does not even have a yellow in his loft. The birds for 2 generations back were, Black, Blue bar and check with white flight. He is stumped on the yellow bird. The yellow bird is very typey on the perch and light as a feather. So, how in the hell did I get a yellow. Any ideas.
Paul
Last Edited by fhtfire on Aug 22, 2004 8:26 PM
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 22, 2004
8:45 PM
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Are you breeding ppen loft or individualcages??
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Mother lode lofts
86 posts
Aug 22, 2004
8:48 PM
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Paul it's a Mutant LOL LOL , I have a little story,a few years ago I was at a guys house and he was flying a kit of birds I picked out this one lacy looking bird and asked "where the heck did that come from" he said "it came from a pair from Jack" my thought was yea right,so I asked to see the pair,well there they were in a open loft with many pairs of cross bred color birds, funny I was just teasing my buddy Jack about that no more than an hr ago LOL,he ended the conversation with "it's funny what your birds supposably will throw at other people's lofts" no matter how many years you inbreed you never see it in your own though.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 22, 2004 8:52 PM
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fhtfire
37 posts
Aug 22, 2004
8:57 PM
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I have an open loft...But the other birds that I have throw checks, bars, reds or blacks....who knows. I just thought that it was weird. You kind of know what birds throw what colors after a breeding season...I thought the same thing about maybe a little wife swapping or something...but I really have nothing that throws anything close to a yellow.
Paul
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Mother lode lofts
88 posts
Aug 22, 2004
9:02 PM
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Paul,it's there somewhere,are you sure that it is yellow ? do you still have birds from that guy over there in the Bay Area ? he has all that stuff over there,some washed out looking Rec Reds look yellowish when young.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 22, 2004 9:05 PM
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 22, 2004
9:10 PM
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You were right Pual another bird is the father it happens all the time in a open loft
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Thor
2 posts
Aug 22, 2004
11:03 PM
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Hey All,
This color thing is a ever going debate. The RARE color breeders will back up their claims with: since they crossed the F1 (etc.) back to a 'Birmingham Roller' (and yes it is a set breed and has been for some time now) it is back to 99.9% Roller (see how I didn't say Birmingham Roller) but improve because it now has a RARE color gene. Another excuse I have heard from such arguements is that since all pigeons came from the Rock Dove, they are all the same (haha). It goes on and on about color. That's what they never seem get, it's not about color but about the what it can do in the air. Once something becomes secondary (performance), it is no longer a priority.
I think the must important thing about this color debate is education... and this is derived from both sides. Getting heated in a debate will only cloud your mind.
Come on, a RARE color bird is a mongrel. You can tell it is right from the first cross. What I don't get is why would anyone who is so proud of this BREED ever pass a RARE color bird off as something it is not? This goes for Birmingham, Mongrel, Oriental, etc.
Genetics isn't all about color... it's more then that, if you Color breeders can't see that then you are truly missing the point. A Birmingham Roller is built the way it is because of Genetics.
Oh another thing, just because it rolls doesn't mean it rolls correctly. I have seen many guys Ouwwing and Auwwwing on 'X' style rollers and wing changing rollers. Just because it rolls doesn't mean it is a good roller. Come on guys, educate yourself. This can't be done from your own Phantasy world of your own back yard. Get out to the Top fliers in your area and keep on visiting them. One trip won't tell you anything. It takes many, and I have to stress, many visits to truly see what his birds are made of in the air.
Oh, another thing... if you call a Pure White a RARE color then you don't know nothing about the Birmingham Roller. Everyone knows that you can get Pure whites in double factor grizzles.
I think the best way to settle this debate is let the RARE color breeders do what they choose and educate the New Fanciers of what is and isn't out there.
I too will agree with that getting a bird to roll is the easies thing, the trick is to get it where the Birmingham Roller breed is today is the hard part. Rolling and Rolling correctly with complete control is too different thing.
Get out and view other peoples birds. Don't say that so and so lives too far from me. If you are really serious about educating yourself about this breed, you will make that trip.
Flying them,
Thor
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Steve Sissel
Guest
Aug 23, 2004
1:41 PM
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Phantom,
Your cyber talk and punctuation is to be commended,
but If you really have raised rollers for 15 years and had any knowledge of what a good roller is, or how one is to produce the same I think you would at least sign your real name to your posts because I'm sure people that have been in the hobby for many moons would know who you are.
Do you live in a trailor park?
P. S.
My money is on the Scottsman.
Later
Steve
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 23, 2004
2:00 PM
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Steve, it's 'Trailer' park. LOL!!
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Phantom1
4 posts
Aug 23, 2004
2:01 PM
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Scott,
First and foremost, have I ever indicated or insinuated that people are NOT cross-breeding pigeons? Absolutely not! I know it’s happening! My point is very simple and you’ve helped validate my point in your previous post. When it comes to genetics “you’re as dumb as a board”. I’m sincerely not trying to continue a pissing match with you and all others that categorize people like myself and others that may have taken the time to learn a bit about genetics and work WITHIN a breed. Never have I said that it is absolutely necessary to cross out to another breed to get a “pretty” roller. You have! Not I…my friend in the sport!
I know you desperately want to be right, and your perception is your reality. I’m opposed to the idea that your perception of the roller MUST be that of anyone reading your posts. And I’ll be the bigger man here and say that you have made some EXCELLENT points regarding flying rollers competitively and breeding from a family. To encourage a new flier to seek out birds from an established family is ideal! But I do have a side question for you while I’m on the topic…how much would you typically sell a pair of your birds for?
You mentioned to new beginners to check out the book “Winners with Spinners” by Graham Dexter. Here’s an excerpt: "Some fanciers become so obsessed, so much in love with their own particular Birmingham Rollers that they become loft blind i.e. 'If I don't own it, if it is not a bird that comes from my particular bloodline, my particular strain, then it can't be any good. Perhaps the most significant is a game called blemish. Blemish is the ability of someone to look at something as near as damn perfect and, rather than enjoying the pleasure of seeing something quite spectacular and nice to watch, the person's mental energies are all going into finding the fault. Blemish is a good way of spoiling your own enjoyment in order to spoil someone else's. The reason that people do this is perhaps fear that this particular team is so good that they'll never ever be able to get as good, so consequently by putting it down they'll feel a lot happier about their own." I sincerely hope this isn’t the case set forth by you and any others that are, after all, only trying to help a new beginner. And remember there is no such thing as a bad student…only a bad teacher.
I also checked out “The Birmingham Roller Pigeon” by William H. Pensom. I felt compelled to leave this excerpt here as well. "It is certain that no other breed can offer the same attraction and diversity of color and markings in this side of the sport. There is a large measure of color and markings to suit all tastes. I feel it would be doing the fancy and the breed and injustice if encouragement was not extended to those fanciers who choose to cultivate those rich colored and gaily marked birds which have been so highly esteemed in the past. By all means let us maintain variety in color and markings. The glamour of the Birmingham Roller is probably the reason we have such a huge number of adherents."
I think a huge gap in our understanding of what is available in the roller of today and what it was 50 years ago, is the difference in what we identify colors as. For example, I was once taught that Indigos were called Chocolates. Recessive Red Grizzles were called Strawberry Splashes. I wonder what a simple Silver-Bar (Not a Mealy-Bar) or a Lavender were called all those years ago. I venture to say that a Lavender was actually referred to as a Silver, whereas that’s just wrong! Even in today’s world, people identify Reduced Spread on Black (i.e. Blue) as Blue-Laced. What was Pensom referring to in his book when he had “Bronze” colored birds. The point here is very simple. Again you’ve openly stated that you don’t have a high level of understanding of some very basic genetic principles. That doesn’t make you a bad guy. Surprises happen day in and day out…sometimes against what we all “think” we know and understand about genetics in pigeons. Blues shouldn’t be able to through Ash Red PERIOD…but it’s been done in my loft under a controlled environment. And so on and so forth….
Enough of this – POINT TO BE MADE – you don’t know all there is know. You’ve openly admitted so. You’re not the authority on the roller pigeon in The United States of American or the world abroad. What I want to establish here is that, though you may hold a very high opinion about the way something works for you and entrust in the values that you’ve been taught, does not mean that someone should take every word to heart and try to implement it every day…and think they’ll come out on top. Nor should someone reading this think for a moment that I am an authority on all there is that’s good. You simply reject ideas, opinions, and facts – ONLY to replace them with your own and expect world-wide acceptance and adherence.
P.S. Would knowing my full name make your value my opinions any more?
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 23, 2004
2:10 PM
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A one/two punch, followed by an uppercut from the Phantom and Scott is down and the ref is counting!!! Will Scott get back on his feet after this brutal beating?? LOL !!
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
158 posts
Aug 23, 2004
3:11 PM
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Phantom, knowing your name would not only be respectful, but then I could ask you exactly what brand of crack do you smoke?.lol. J/K Shit man, you sound about as individualistic as Scott about his position, you just are a little more eloquent with your words is all. No where in your literary quotes does it say to cross to another breed. Pretty birds or "gaily" birds of that time were usually the badges or birds with odd or excess white, not opal, toy stencil, frill lace, reduced, pale, milky, ice, or any other unique coloration or combination there of. In pigeons you will always get that one odd event that defies the rules of the genetic road, leaving one to wonder if all is truly not what it seems. With the understanding that things happen we cannot explain, that does not justify the chance that a breed such as the birmingham roller can produce a genetically true Isabel or a peach lace or even a brown as there is no evidence of brown being part of the exported birds. I agree that the color terms used by our roller forefathers were odd in their description, and in some backyards even today nothing has changed. 99 percent of the rollers called Duns for the last 100 years were, in most cases, nothing more than spread ash red expressing dirty, possibly grease quill and sooty too and in a lot of cases are carrying recessive red which is linked to kite bronze. A genetically true dun is dilute spread blue. They call them what they looked like, many (probably most) times not what they were genetically.
There is simple logic to understand if one only detaches themselves from emotion momentarily. If a pigeon rolls, it can be called a roller, ro//ro makes a bird roll, or gives it the opportunity to do so. A roller exhibits a combination or series of backward flips assembled together while falling, therefore appearing to be rolling. I have had this arguement with my fellow West breeders who say they have or have seen a West roll 20, 30 or 40 feet. It then is not a tumbler, but a roller. Simple logic really. If someone crosses a bird that rolls with one that does not, then consequently over the next generations produces birds that do roll in even the worst fashion possible, it is still a roller....but not a Birmingham Roller. Same said if one crosses a Birmingham Roller with say an Archangel or Damascene, the offspring are not pure or true to the genetic manuscript created in the Birmingham's gene pool. It would take, if memory serves me correctly, 7-8 generations of breeding to a pure gene source to get to a point where genetically the offspring are 7/8 or 15/16 true or pure. That is assuming of course the proprietor of these matings did so accurately and tested the offspring in the air. Would such an event then warrant the labeling of a roller as a Birmingham Roller? That depends on who you talk to I suppose.
Both you (who choses to remain nameless for some reason) and Scott, as well as some others who posted, make good points. But the point is that some people do cross breed their Birmingham Rollers with other breeds for color alone, then after a few selective generations have them looking physically like a traditional roller with a unique paint job and most likely will roll, probably even roll too much. It is characteristic for a color bred roller to actually roll too much and eventually roll down as the selection process was for color and not for the performance phenotype. Then they offer them as color Birminghams, which they are not in their entirety.
Personally I could care less what a person chooses to breed, feed and fly. I do advocate the offering of truthful information to those who are novices in the sport, so that they can make a decision for themselves and not feel as though they were decieved later on. If a person choses to only breed dark blue velvets or checkers off 514, more power to them. If they chose to fly a kit of dominant opals, reduced or any other manifested show color mutation, more power to them as well. The smartest guy in the yard will always be the gentlemen who understands all the unique facets of the roller hobby though they may not readily accept one or many of the nuances that have created the current diverse appreciation within the sport.
Brian.
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Mother lode lofts
95 posts
Aug 23, 2004
5:03 PM
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Phantom glad to see you back I was afraid that you were falling apart on me after that post before this last one. It reminded me a of a guy sitting at a poker table with a bluff hand that suddenly starts sweating profusly when he's called LOL,
OK again I don't know if I'm just not following you or if you are just doing a Kerry flop here. If I am following you here what you are saying is that you believe the breed come's in a beautiful array of colors and patterns as Pensom qoutes. Oh kay you may wish to go back and re-read some of my posts as that is what I have indicated several time's. But we might as well use this one also since it was brought up.
"In Rollers we also have a color problem,for while all colors and patterns roll perfectly we cannot breed for correct spinning and color at the same time,if we continue to breed for color we loose the finer qaulities of the spin"
And I don't think that you would argue with me that he was talking about colors that are within the breed and does not even touch on using other breeds Now this whole topic evolved around around crossbreed crossbred which you seem to be backing away from now and I see no reason to continue on with it.
Although you asked the question about what is a Bronze? If you like I will E-mail you a pic of one as I get a few heavy Bronze showing through on dark Checks. Now as I admited I am dumb as a board on color genetics and know only the basics but I believe it is just the Rec Red showing through on the dark Checks same as I will get like a washed out Rec Red showing Blue. The Bronze for the most part disapears after the first moult.
The qoute out of Winners With Spinners is a classic and holds so very true which is why I'm allways pushing for people to get out of thier backyards. Out of thier areas and out of thier State to see birds.
And Phantom one thing that you will never hear me doing is bragging on my own family or my own birds,never!! Because sure as anything when you have a judge or company standing in your backyard even the best of teams have the capability of making a fool out of you on any given day. But one thing that I do Phantom is analize the team and the birds within the team hard whether I'm standing under my own or someone elses and I do look for the faults. But I'm also looking for the special ones within the team. Now I'll end it with this. The knowledge of color genetics plays no part in the performance of the Birmingham Roller as the bird and the gene pool is just to complicated and other than the bare basics and I have no interest in it as I really don't care what color of youngsters pop out of the nest. But used as a tool to know whether a bird nest jumped or not has it's merits and I have the book in the john when needed but other than that it's meaningless in my opinion. Besides that around here the options are going to be pretty limited and besides I breed out of Individuals. So Phantom lets here about "your" birds and tell us about they look like and how they perform. While you are at it why don't you tell us your thoughts on crossbred color birds. You don't have any right ?
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 23, 2004 9:58 PM
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Steve Sissel
Guest
Aug 23, 2004
5:12 PM
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Annon,
Yea it was spelled right!! LOL
Brian McCormick --BMC
He knows what I meant. !! LOL
Steve
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Mother lode lofts
96 posts
Aug 23, 2004
5:59 PM
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Good post Brian and well put. You should work as an editor LOL. I really couldnt understand where Phantom was going with those discriptions. I don't believe that he was saying that those were what we know as Non Birmingham colors was he ?
Maybe we just need to look at pictures LOL. One thing that you hit on that struck me a few years ago was "too" much roll out of the crossbreeds. I knew some guys that had gotten some of these birds from a well known color breeder and they said that every last one of them crashed and burned. One guy that breeds these crossbreeds I talked to a while back indicated too many guys use just an extreamly hot bird and won't put them in the air untill after the 3rd generation and this creates the problem. But I think that it's a combination of that and a bird that only looks like a roller on the outside(excluding color). In other words they just aren't built to handle it physicly and mentally. As I mentioned before. I think that this is the hard part and one of the most critical parts. It is the same with depth. Depth is probaby one of the easiest things there is to breed for but one of the hardest things to breed for is a deep bird that can do it right from start to finish and be able to zing back to the team like it never happened and live past the second year. One more thing on how many generations to put it to 5/16 say you used a dark check for it. If from the F-1 on you bred it strickly for performance for 6 generations what color would it be ? Geneticly speaking how close is the Chimp to a human LOL.
OK now I'll end with this,our birds are personal with each and everyone of us. The color guys truelly love what they do and it is what motivates them and it is truelly where thier love lays. Same with the performance breeder that could care less about what color pops up out of the nest and the fact is even for the hardest competitor 99.999 percent of what we enjoy about these birds is just us in our backyards. But lets leave it all out on the table so that the new fliers have to tools to go in whichever direction that may choose.
Scott
Oh yea when an Archangle is used in a cross why can't the F-1s be called an Archangle LOL
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 23, 2004 10:04 PM
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Phantom1
5 posts
Aug 24, 2004
10:13 AM
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Oh Ye Band Of Brothers!
Okay, I’ve got to address this one first. Steve, if me writing in double negatives and run-on sentences that last for 15 or 20 lines will help you understand and comprehend better, please let me know. I’ll do my best to oblige you.
Brian – You sound like a man that I can totally get along with. I appreciate your candidacy as well as your expression of knowledge to the sport and to the hobby. I think you only made one statement that I’d like to further discuss (perhaps here isn’t the appropriate place though). I’ll start here anyway, as what can I say…apparently I’m a glutton for punishment. Though there is no mention of Brown in the original imports or the Birmingham Roller prior to being what it has become today, it was most likely called – Our favorite – Dun. Brown cannot carry any other hard color (ie. Blue or Ash Red), rather it can be carried by Blue and Ash Red. So I do believe without a doubt that Brown was and remains a possibility in a roller that is pure for the “ro//ro” gene and that has not been cross-bred. We may have a gentleman that has a Blue-Check Cock that carries Brown and puts it over 4 different hens…raises 100 birds before that Cock Bird dies, and never see a Brown hen one. Statistically – he should raise 25 Brown Hens if it did…but as you stated…it’s never a given. However, half of his sons will carry the Brown gene. Again, as you elated to, many people call it as they see it. If it looks pink with purple dots, they’ll find a name for it LOL! It too thought my first Browns were nothing more than Dun-Checks.
Scott – I’m very close to finding a new respect for you. I think our main difference lies in the fact that you are a Competitive Flier. I am not, nor do I ever desire to be one. What lit the fire under my butt, was the implications that you set forth that there are those out there that cross pigeon breeds for the sole purpose of introducing a color, breeding back to where the bird looks a certain way, only to manipulate unknowing newcomers. I think the second issue that brought on the breakdown in our communication was what you and I consider “colors”. You state “Toy Breed” colors are kinda the issue with you. When I say “color”, I’m referring to – well – Dominant Opal, Reduced, Indigo, Milky, etc. Not the Isabel or Oriental Frill Lace…I would be a complete and udder moronic, ignorant, blind as a bat, pigeon breeder if I though those colors were innate in the Roller! I’m sorry if I offered up any confusion to that fact.
Scott, you’ve also asked a couple of times about my birds. Well, where do I begin? Color wise, and yes I’m obviously one of those Color Breeders, I’ve got the following. Blue-Bars, Barless Blues, Barless Indigo, Indigo-Bars, Indigo-Checks, Reduced-Checks, Reduced-Bars, Blacks, Ash Red-Checks, Ash-Red Bars, and Brown in Spread, Check, and Bar. I think that about covered it. Out of all those colors, I may have 40 birds total. I’ve always tried to maintain a level of control in my stock. I don’t just take birds in from nowhere and know nothing about them, which I hope you and the gang can respect. From the Pensom line that I acquired, they mainly consisted of Blue-Bars, Blue-Checks, and the Indigos. Oddly enough, I produced a Reduced Hen out of one of the Blue Cocks years back and have (for the most part) used that one Hen as the foundation for my Reduced rollers. Back then these were called Blue-Laced and were considered very rare. I think that’s when we got a lot of people trying to cross that into the roller. I can say, however, with confidence that my Reduced are rollers, not cross-breeds.
I think what we have going here is a Birmingham Roller vs. American Roller bout or something. Things have certainly changed over the years. I can appreciate what you “Die Hards” are doing to preserve the sanctity of what you believe in. I sincerely hope that you can do the same for us “Color Breeders”, and encourage anyone that prefers one type or the other in the direction they’ll be most happy with.
I guess to close, I’d probably like to say something like “Why can’t we all just get along”, but how about we all just throw our skirts off and rub some dirt on ourselves and just Play Pigeons!
Thanks for all your input gentlemen!
Eric
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Steve Sissel
Guest
Aug 24, 2004
11:53 AM
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Well Eric,
That would be great.
You can say all that you have to say in a short few words and skip all the other trash.
Politicians and used car salesmen have to make you think you are getting more than you are with a big line of bull to impress people or themselves.
Later
Wizz Kid
Steve
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