Phantom1
6 posts
Aug 24, 2004
12:05 PM
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Steve,
I'm really not sure how best to handle you. Brian mentioned something about being respectful. Guess you have to get respect in order to give it. But that's probably beyond you. Oh yeah...you wanted a long run on sentence with double negatives...man I just can't do it.
Better yet...how about we turn this forum into something that's not intended for. Personal slamming of each other for the world to see. Ain't it great! Boy, you sure showed me! I feel so humiliated and humbled...
I hope you understood these BIG words I just used.
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
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Steve
Guest
Aug 24, 2004
1:20 PM
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Hey Eric,
That would be great!
Shorten it up.
You ain't said nothin I ain't heard over 50 years ago.
There are 3 typs of people that say alot and don't say nothin.
A politician, a used car salesman and someone that tries to impress others or themselves.
Steve
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Steve
Guest
Aug 24, 2004
1:22 PM
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Eric, I said it twice!
Can you understand that?
Steve
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Steve
Guest
Aug 24, 2004
1:26 PM
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Sorry Tony,
I quit!
That is how you spell quit ain't it?
Steve
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 24, 2004
2:32 PM
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You like to hear yourself talk a lot don't you Steve! I've heard of many types of people, but I think you've created a new one - them broken record people. Sure wish we could you all wound up about something. LOL!!!!
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
160 posts
Aug 24, 2004
2:55 PM
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Eric, I'm curious to hear an honest opinion of your reduced rollers. I have yet to see a reduced roller of any color worth a crap, most being flutter balls at most until they dent the loft roof. The reduced gene has the tendency to greatly weaken a pigeon, similar to what dilute can often do. Did you get your reduced from Dal Stone? Just curious. As for brown, I have yet to ever see a true brown roller, but do not deny they exist. I would speculate them to also be weak in physical character as well given that brown is a weaker phenotype than blue or ash red. Any baby born downless is weak of character, its sort of a signpost label I suppose. I do accept the possibilities that an imported roller could have carried brown, but have yet to see pictures of one or read passages referring to it existing in the early Birminghams. The difference in brown as compared to true dun (dilute spread blue) and the dirty spread ash reds commonly called duns is that browns will show a distinct tail bar unless they are spread. A dun and dun looking ash red will not. Something any pigeon fancier of any era could have easily spotted and realized. And to retain a flock of browns, one must breed brown to brown to get them in any numbers, thus breeding weak to weak, something I would think most serious roller flyers would tend to shy away from. I would be curious to hear about your honest experiences with these colors.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Aug 24, 2004 2:56 PM
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Phantom1
7 posts
Aug 24, 2004
3:51 PM
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Hi Brian!
In all honesty, when I said I got my first Reduced out of the Pensom stuff, and that I had mainly started my stock from that...well as you know when you raise them you lose them. I've only got one Cock left from that original descent, and I have yet to get anything out of him this year. I really haven't tried. But in years past, they held their own. And again, I'll say here, that I don't fly competitively, so I don't know 100% what you guys are looking for in the "Birmingham Roller". I guess no matter what bloodline one has, if it's just a backyard enjoyment you're tickled to death if one does a flip! LOL! At any rate, the other Reduced birds I have is a Reduced-Bar Cock from James Turner, and then a young hen (not old enough to breed) that is half Turner, half my family (Pensom based).
On the Browns, well and on the Reduced and Dilutes. You're absolutely correct, and I'll agree with you till the end. They are the weaker of the phenotypes, and I suppose genotypes for that matter. They're the lowest on the food chain so to speak. The way I'm developing my family of Browns is through a Blue-Bar Cock that carries Brown, mated to a Spread Brown Hen. She's not pure for Spread so I'm getting a little bit of everything in both sexes. I'll be glad to send you send pictures if you like. Gorgeous small, tight birds. I've not flown a single one, as I had a devil of a time last year. I lost all my true Browns and lucked out that I ran across the Blue-Bar carrying it.
But I do agree with you on the weakness thing. That's why having some of those good hard colors around is always a good thing when you're working with any softer color.
Thanks!
Eric
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Steve Sissel
Guest
Aug 24, 2004
4:19 PM
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Anon,
Man you cut me!
You cut me deep!
I'm going to have to file for bankrupsy.
Somebody call a whambulance. Whaahahahaa!!
Meanwhile we better let these color freaks discuss the pastel world.
Steve
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 24, 2004
4:26 PM
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As a newcomer, I ran across this site looking to get started with Rollers. Now that I have seen the childish bickering about color, I will never get into this breed. To all who post here and to the owner of this site that allows this to go on, thank you for turning yet another newcomer away from the breed.
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 24, 2004
4:34 PM
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Would somebody please define "Birmingham Roller" since that seems to be the heart of this entire discussion.
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 24, 2004
6:42 PM
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I think Eric drew the conclusion to the whole Birmingham Roller v.s. the American Roller thing. I guess to play with these jokers you have to throw around big names, travel abroad, boast about your encounters and not necessarily knock rollers in the colors Eric discusses, but claim they are not a breed. To whomever posted earlier about not getting into the breed. I don't blame you. It's obviously not worth it. You'd get more consideration and respect out of a bunch of Racing Homer guys. There's no winning respect on this site. I personally think this site or forum was just a way for these jokers to talk about how good their birds are without having to make a long distance phone call. Anyone want some culls...they're free! I've obviously been raising kits of good rollers for the last 20 years for nothing. Maybe I should join the band wagon on this one and get some really good birds. Does anyone have anything for sale????? Kidding, I know I couldn't afford your ridiculous prices. Enjoy it while it lasts boys...cuz the "Birmingham Roller" is nothing more than an American Roller only identified by a name of the city in England it was developed. Maybe I'll move to Birmingham and call myself English, not American...wonder how much they'd like that HA! It's been fun kiddos, but this old timer ain't got the time or the energy to keep reading about such nonsense.
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Mother lode lofts
105 posts
Aug 24, 2004
7:46 PM
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Maybe it would help if you knew what an "Amercan Roller" was,it was a bird bred from very early English imports and crossed onto other sporting breeds both for high flying and Depth and was breed away from the English standards as far as performance,the American Roller was bred for high flying and depth and became an American creation that has all but died out since.
But since these color Rollers are an American creation maybe the color breeeders could pick up the name and have something Identify thier birds with. But at some point other breeds would have to quit being crossed in for it to actually become a breed but I think that these type of projects is what gets some of these people pumped.
As for selling birds I don't see this anywhere on any of these pages other than the owner of the site, nor have I seen on any of these or other posts people bragging about how great thier birds are.
Scott Campbell
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
161 posts
Aug 24, 2004
9:22 PM
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Childish bickering? Nonsense? Is that what the Anons of the pigeon world call "Heartful Discussion" when you get old and grumpy? Tony runs a great site here and it is topics just like this that bring out the passion true roller pigeon folks have regardless of what side they stand on. I would much rather read debate and discussion that fuels the spirit and stimulates education. If a hot topic like this turns someone off, you haven't seen nothing yet. Racing homers and show breeds are FAR WORSE! LOL. Tony, you need to create a special parking zone for the sensitive bus..lol.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Aug 24, 2004 9:23 PM
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Phantom1
8 posts
Aug 25, 2004
7:09 AM
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Scott and Brian,
I really don’t know what else to say. The few posts that are up on the discussion now (Anonymously) are pretty much the type that I had hoped to avoid. When I first became involved in the discussion, it was due to the way I perceived the way any other birds were referred to as, or discriminated against (sometimes with little tact). I can’t bad-mouth either of you for what you believe or base your actions on. I don’t want to. I guess if I could encourage anything, it would just be sensitivity to things. Granted, sometimes the truth hurts. But I have yet to run across any hard based facts that can prove every single word any of us have stated. Rather we do believe what we believe and it’s pretty hard to change that. As you said Brian “It would be easier getting a Spread Milky Gazzi Modena to roll 20 feet, then to change what some people believe”.
I sincerely wish the cross-breeding would stop. It would make things so much easier. But there are people that LOVE doing it and just “Playing Pigeons”! If they’ll keep them in the confines of their backyard, more power to them.
I know you guys are going to have fun with this one (me), and any others that try to post something on the forums. So enjoy. Guys, I wish that things could have started off a bit different for us, but I feel like there are people you meet in your life that you know you’ll never really get along with. Unfortunately, you’ve got a good little group of roller folks here on the site, and you’ve got your inside jokes that you can take to the grave with you, and don’t make much room for the newcomers. I tried to have reasonable debate and discussion with you all, but was only told how wrong I was and how right you were. Guess there’s a reason why I wasn’t on the debate team in high school huh!
Well folks – Enjoy yourselves. Try not to break any hearts out there. Based on this string of posts…some of you don’t have a very good track record.
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
P.S. This will be my last post…whomever runs this site (Tony?) you can delete my profile so I don't clutter up your server.
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
145 posts
Aug 25, 2004
8:57 PM
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Eric, et el, controversial subjects will always elicit a response, reasonable or not. You sound like you have been around the block and you knew this didn't you?
You are welcome to continue posting to the site. You have as much right to express your thoughts and experience as the next guy. Sometimes we can get "pummeled" when expressing differing views.
Do remember, this site is dedicated to the performance Birmingham Roller and when threads begin to go in a direction that appear to suggest that breeding for anything less than performance is "okay", a barrage of posts will be directed to correcting this so as not to give a wrong impression to those who would not know otherwise.
If this was not done so enthusiastically, it would be just a matter of time before the Birmingham Roller became a roller in name only like the "show roller".
This site has had over 250,000 page views since I revamped it last December 03. Many newcomers use this site as a resource to learn and share their experiences.
I believe I have some obligation to the hobby in general to ensure that correct information is deseminated to those who come here. As I learn more about the Birmingham Roller, I realize just how I don't know and much more I have to go.
For this reason, guys like Brian and Scott do more to help newcomers and experienced breeders than you could ever realize. I get emails from people telling me how much they appreciate this site and visit everyday.
Know that when honest questions are asked in the spirit of learning they will be answered by the nicest people, on this site and others. FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Thor
7 posts
Aug 25, 2004
10:18 PM
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Hi Eric,
I find your post about RARE color birds interesting. You mentioned that your birds are of the Pensom line. Did you purchase these birds off Pensom or off those circle of Friends that Pensom only trusted (like Stan Plona, J. Leroy Smith, etc.) when aquiring birds from first hand or were they from someone else?
I'm curious how anyone could breed so many different RARE colors off such birds if you did. I'm no genetic expert nor would I care to be but my family of birds are also down from the same source (Stan Plona stuff) - it is filled with alot of colors and patterns:Blue, Red, Bar, Check, Ash, Spread/Lavender/Black, Rec. Red, mostly Badges, Marks, Brooch, Tort, Tick, and Grizzle... Well my point is, a fellow here who has the same birds and was the forefather breeder of most of my breeder's parents have been inbreeding his stock for over 25 years and never once has he encounter such a bird as Indigo, Lace, Opal, Barless, and so on with the RARE color stuff not even a Yellow. If I'm correct, if it was in the breed from the beginning like you claim, then why weren't they popping up in the old photos of past birds. Better yet, why haven't one popped up yet from such families who has been highly inbred for 25 plus years in this case or even longer in some cases. Don't get me wrong but isn't Indigo and Opal a dominate trait? If it is, it would only take 1 or 2 generations to see the result. Even for recessive genes such as Barless or Reduce, wouldn't it eventally pop up from such severe inbreeding like my example or many Ellite Fliers stock. You posted many post about genetics... maybe you can shed some light into this for me.
It still doesn't register how you or the guys who have stated the same thing could get such colors in your birds if they didn't bring anything else or haven't cross breed.
Just curious?
The only conclusion I have come to for you or fanciers like you is that: either you guys have been deceive from the start or just don't want amitt to cross breeding. That is why it is so important to talk about such a heated topic as of RARE colors.
The problem here is not that your birds will roll or even roll correctly or not, but to be upfront on what we are selling. Getting duked is no laughing matter. I can see where Scott is coming from. I can even see where you are coming from if you were duked. The problem is I can't see why people are still cross breeding and selling them off as Birmingham Rollers of RARE color.
Maybe it's time to look into what is behind your birds Eric. I think you will be shocked in what you find.
Remember, just because we close our eyes doesn't make it right.
I'll share a example of such a case of being duked... well, I have a buddy here who purchased birds from a Highly respected local Roller Club member and soon after breeding acouple of rounds, he noticed that he was getting a strange colored young every now and then. I visited his loft after hereing it and after viewing these strange colored birds, told him to talk to the guy if they were of a RARE color breeder line. Long and behold after contacting the seller, he stated that the birds were from a breeder of RARE color. The birds were advertise as Jaconetts and were of 20 ft plus not only that, the seller were pretty well known to have some top birds in his area. You weren't able to tell that those were of some RARE color breeder line when looking at them because one was a Rec. Red and the other was a Black. I can see how one could fall into believing they had the real deal.
Something to think about...
Flying them,
Thor
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Mother lode lofts
110 posts
Aug 25, 2004
10:43 PM
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Thor are you saying that I am wasting my time trying to breed Milky Opal Laces out of my dark checks ??? say it aint so LOL.
That was a good post Thor and was basicly my exact thoughts but I felt it was best to leave it alone at this point. This topic allways goes sideways. But this topic is also a good learning tool. The problem is that it leaves to many confused and to many don't know what to think.
But it is also pretty easy to figure out what is what with just a little research.
Scott
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
6:50 AM
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Yep...you guys are always right! I can always trust in your words of wisdom! Keep em coming guys! Let's get these color idiots off this site altogether and focus on what's really important...making sure OUR birds are the best out there and squeeze out any imperfections such as a Recessive Red out of some Blue-Checks! What kind of crap do these color people have????
Tony - GREAT SITE!!! I'd encourage you to delete any post that's related to color or someone trying to learn about the hobby in general.
Marilyn
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
6:53 AM
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Tony - you posted the following: If this was not done so enthusiastically, it would be just a matter of time before the Birmingham Roller became a roller in name only like the "show roller".
I'm curious, as I missed the posts about the Show Roller Topic. Were the Show Roller Breeders stating that the Breed was a Birmingham Roller or rather it was a Show Roller? Can you clarify?
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Keith
4 posts
Aug 26, 2004
8:56 AM
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I approach this subject from a little different angle. I am not so worried about what is behind a bird on the pedigree. It is not important to me that a bird be straight Pensoms, Jackonetts etc. The only important thing is how it performs in the air.
When we are choosing our breeders we take into consideration the Primary traits required for competition Birmingham Rollers. Those being: Rolling ability, Velocity, Depth, Control, Type and Kitting (not necessarily in that order). There are a lot of factors involved, and the percentage of good birds that make it to be good breeders is very small.
When breeding for specific colors we not only add another trait, but make color the first trait we are breeding for. Color first, then Rolling ability, Velocity, Depth, Control, Type and Kitting (not necessarily in that order).
Lets say that you have two breeders with equal skill and a set of equal birds to start with. One breeder is breeding for color and the other isn't who do you think would have the higher quality of birds after 5-10 years? I know who I would want to get birds from.
Keith
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
9:19 AM
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Keith,
Excellent Points! The key, however, in working with "color" as one of the many factors you list, is to know how to maintain the balance of everything you want to get out of the birds. The same argument could be made if someone was only wanting to breed and fly Blue-Check Badges. Every Blue-Bar Pied or Self that was produced would come directly from what that breeder wants to fly and compete with. However, the Blue-Bars are not a desired trait, therefore culled. Let's not even think about a Blue throwing a Dun (Silver).
The flip side - what if someone has developed a good family of what some would consider "colored" birds that provide every trait necessary for competition flying? Even Scott said at one point that he couldn't tell the difference in the hard colored birds and the colored birds when they were flying and performing. Then that person would be able to continue breeding for the other traits, besides color, because that would no longer be a factor - they'd already have it.
But good points to be made! Spoken like a true gentleman!
Allen
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Steve Sissel
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
11:44 AM
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Keith, Allen,
Keith I have had rollers from as far back as 1957 and I have seen your senerio played out.
Of course the better birds were from the men that stuck with the better performers and left out the wasting time (Trying)to perfect good spinners from color projects.
Allen you stated "if" a person could carry out his intent of raising good spinners from his line he is developing from "as I say" colored birds or those created from other breeds to get those colors would be great but it has been tried, and in all my years I have witnessed that they will not hold up to the breeding of the progeny of these color birds.
The good traits will not hold up.
I have 1 relative and 1 close friend that have won the Wourld Cup and they stuck with the continueing perfection of the true Birmingham Roller without crossing in of other breeds.
Back in the 80's I was a t James Turners for the Carolina Big fly and we talked about his color projects.
He had some real deep quality spinners and I asked him about them.
He said he could get some from his projects but they would not hold up with vigorous flying and they would not produce the same good spinners after about the 2nd time of breeding these progeny.
I myself have had to work long hours and have not been able to enter flys but I have kept an eye on the roller hobby.
I have witnessed these new guys like Scott Campbell and
some others that do pretty good in the flys and they have consentrated on the true Birmingham Roller and have been perfecting on their line of rollers with good results.
In my personal observations I have come to a conclusion that the breed of the Birmingham Roller was set and the breeds that made them up were a result of that certain cross.
All the other birds used in puting something else into them only hinders and takes away from the original.
We can take the original and breed it for better quality roll and speed but it is my belief that is as far as it will go without deminishing it or harm it in some critical way.
Later
Steve
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
12:38 PM
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Hi Steve!
I had a question about James Turner's birds. Since you've had a personal meeting with him, can you recall what he used to introduce to the roller, the new colors? And what colors was he working on?
Another question. I've heard so many people talk about the best way to breed "Birmingham Rollers" is to constantly inbreed. Obviously you'd want to weed out for weaknesses, as you would with any breeding program for any livestock. But after time, without introducing something new from a different family, wouldn't you be doing the birds more harm? I mean, I've got some web-footed birds before - never two heads or anything. Just seems a bit too harsh to keep putting daughter back to daddy until your great-grandpa is also your father and your cousin. LOL!
LeeRoy
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
171 posts
Aug 26, 2004
1:13 PM
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Keith, good post, well said.
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
2:37 PM
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Steve in your post you mention your meeting with James Turner. I have found out that you are lying about what he said and trying to turn it around. Do you always lie in order to try and make your point more beleivable? looks like your credibility is shot.
Next.....
Roy D.
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Steve Sissel
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
3:29 PM
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Roy D,
I don't have to be credible to you or anyone, just myself.
You don't know what your talking about.
If you were there, what state was the guy from ,that Turner gave the best bird in his kit to that day?
Later
Steve
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Steve S.
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
3:42 PM
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Lee Roy or D Roy,
Whatever your name is.
If I tell ya to much I will be accused of lying to ya so I'll make it short LOL
Inbreeding brings out the best or worst in a family of rollers.
It could be a time bomb down the road.
Inbreed to an extent.
Breed m/s-f/d and nest mates some.
Also carry a side line, same family but not to close related as to go back out to get hybrid vigor to put back into your birds like back to cousins or aunts or uncles.
Better stop there. LOL
Later
Steve
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