Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2418 posts
May 25, 2010
9:37 AM
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Scott/Paul,
What happened in your WC finals flys? Weather?
Cliff
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4055 posts
May 25, 2010
11:07 AM
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Scott rang a bell and Paul DQ'd. That's all I know for now.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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diamondrollers
381 posts
May 25, 2010
11:13 AM
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Tony i think your right. Scott's kit broke up and flew in two Paul's kit not sure but i think he called 19 they had only counted 18 in the air so he let out an other bird but the 19 th bird was on the roof so when it flew up and got in the kit there was 20 so it caused him to DQ but not to sure i could be wrong.
Its not easy to fly these birds you think you got them just right and bam they let you down. Better luck next time Scott and Paul
Sal
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Scott
3046 posts
May 25, 2010
1:12 PM
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Cliff.. it looked like amature day over here.. I ended up with 4 birds below the kit flippen and floppen and a tumbling ..so I rang the call in bell for a DQ rather than waste more time.
I don't why or even who as I had to get the judge down the hiway.. it was plain ugly .. ya just pick up ..dust off and get ready for the next one.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on May 25, 2010 1:14 PM
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diamondrollers
382 posts
May 25, 2010
2:02 PM
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hey Scott SH$$ happens bro. Send them four flippers over here lol I bet they roll better then what they showed
sal
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fhtfire
2541 posts
May 25, 2010
5:57 PM
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Well....I DQ'd but no birds landed early....I called in 19....hand counted and recorded the bands...so I knew there was 19...so I thought...anyway...I let them up and we counted 18 ....Nobody saw a bird hit or anything like that.....one went into a tree but came out of it and went back up...anyway...I released a bird to make 19...then I called time in.......I was still baffled about the 19....I even ran over to my kit box to see if it was left behind...
Then about thirty seconds later...Joe Urbon said that there was a bird on a roof behind my house...that bird then went up to my kit.....I was then DQ for having an extra bird...Joe asked the judge or said something about it just being an extra bird should be deducted..the judge said that bird was from my kit....but I still did not think it was from my kit because nobody saw a bird go down or fly from the kit...but I guess it must have been..
anyway...I was DQ for an extra bird......so the next day I found a bird in my team that was not from the team...or the band number was not from the team I should say...so I checked the band number and it was a bird that I sold to a guy in Woodland....that just wanted a pigeon to fly around....I sold it for 5 bucks....anyway...he lost it let it go at 6 am the morning I flew....so the bird that DQ'd me was not mine....so I could have scored....and I am still missing a bird from my A team......weird...but it goes to show that you should never assume..everyone assumed the bird on the roof was mine....the only person that did not was Joe Urbon....and he was right.....so I should have been deducted 1 point for every break for an extra roller that joined the kit.
But hell that is roller flying.....at the time everything seemed right......but then later I find the bird was not from the team...no biggy...like Scott said.....dust off and get back on the horse....
The team was doing ok and would have scored about the middle of the rest of Cali...and not much more....they were working but were off...so that makes me feel better.
rock and ROLL
paul
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kham89
316 posts
May 25, 2010
6:37 PM
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Dang that really sucks Paul I am sure you would score some pionts. But it was a fun afternoon overall. FrEE Latte lmao...
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Kham Thao
N C R C
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JMUrbon
1037 posts
May 25, 2010
7:52 PM
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Paul my views on this are that the kit should have been continued to be scored and the discussion as to the rules taken place after the time had expired. The rules do not state that if the extra birds is yours you are DQ'd they simply state that if an extra roller joins the kit a simple deduction of said number of birds will be deducted from each break therafter. I feel that is what should have taken place in this case. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Bill C
532 posts
May 25, 2010
8:38 PM
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Sorry to hear things did not go as good as they could have for you guys. We all know what that is like!!! I am glad I decided to work since I am limmited from 9 to 5 hours now on most days with my sons after school.
I bet it was still worth watching the kits fly though. I have enjoyed watching kits fly Scott, even if the kit split or had an out bird or two. Fast spinners are still breath taking, I know we want tight kitting if at all possible.
I flew a kit this morning worrying that winds might be strong up higer( because of wind advisory and a storm moving in) and in 13 bird kit only two rolled much but those two, especially one kept my eyes up while feeding the others.
I just cant bring myself to say good luck next time as I am hoping that for myself in the fall fly. LOL But good luck with your breeding season! Bill C
Last Edited by on May 25, 2010 8:43 PM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3611 posts
May 25, 2010
9:47 PM
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That's why those rules have to be clear up.
tough break for you Paul but you be right back on that horse again. and Scott know those are the breaks in comp. ....good luck next time guys..peace ..
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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BA Rollers
340 posts
May 25, 2010
10:49 PM
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The kit should have been scored with the one bird deductions as well as a side scoring of the would have been five bird breaks (five bird break - one bird deduction= 4 bird - no break scored). Then the issue discussed afterwards, potentially when all birds were back down. A call should have been made to the GC for clarification afterwards as well. At that point either a DQ, standing score or modified score would be awarded. This is the second "outbird" mishap I've heard so far on this fly. Bummer deal Paul. Get um next year.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2419 posts
May 26, 2010
5:25 AM
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Scott
A perfect example of what can happen on any given day trying to fly Rollers. You are a good experienced flyer with good birds and an very good fly record. You will keep at it, 'till it all comes together again. I have no doubts.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2420 posts
May 26, 2010
5:31 AM
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Joe and Brian
I agree with the ideas expressed. We may need some kind of fail-safe to try to keep questionable judging calls from negatively affecting a flyer's ability to score. History has shown that mistakes do happen. There are methods to work through most problems. Just a very unfortunate situation for Paul, that was not his fault.
Cliff
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Scott
3047 posts
May 26, 2010
6:03 AM
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The rules were followed.. the problem was Paul calling 19 and only 18 coming out of the box.. the bird that showed up was obviously one of Pauls birds and not a stray and was not in question even by Paul .. it wasn't until the judge was long gone that Paul discovered it was sold to a guy down the street a few days prior... even then you would have to convince the judge of such.
Again the root of the problem was the intitial count being wrong... the judge made the only call that he could.. and I would have done exactlty the same... and the fact is all of this is moot point anyway.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on May 26, 2010 6:11 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2421 posts
May 26, 2010
8:17 AM
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Correct as I understand the WC rules Scott. Declaring the number of birds and then flying a different number is automatic DQ. No adjustments are permitted in the WC, only the NBRC.
Cliff
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kcfirl
642 posts
May 26, 2010
8:19 AM
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It's always good to actually read the rules. Here it is:
2) Time-in. The flyer shall announce to the judge the number of birds that are being flown prior to release of the birds. No additions or subtractions are allowed after release, but the flyer is allowed to chase up any birds that land or hit before time is called in. If the number of birds released is different from the number of birds declared to the judge the kit shall be disqualified.
Since Paul called 19 and released 18, he is DQ'd immediately. There is no option to add another bird after the initial release.
The mistake that as made was releasing the extra bird. If Paul had not done that, then scoring could have continued as usual with a 1 bird deduction on scored breaks from the point at which the bird on the roff went up and joined the kit.
The judge was correct in DQ'ing Paul but not for having an extra bird. The DQ shuold have been immediate when he let out 18 after calling in 19.
Best Regards,
Ken
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fhtfire
2543 posts
May 26, 2010
8:47 AM
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Either way....I am not complaining...I take what I got and that is fine...All I am doing is explaining what happened.
In the fire service when we have a call that goes sideways for whatever reason....we do just like now and admit there was an issue. We dont complain or point fingers....we throw out the facts....and then learn from the facts so it does not happen again.
Fact...18 birds were let out (according to Joe, Scott, Judge)....No birds were witnessed leaving the kit....pretty easy to tell I am pretty open......Asked to add 19...Judge says yes......throw up additional bird.....wait another minute or so....call time in...Joe sees bird on roof behind my house....bird takes off and heads for kit.....still eveyone is SURE that a bird did not crash or leave kit when released...Bird Enters kit...Judge DQ's....Joe says are you sure....it shoudl be one point deducted....for extra roller....Judge says that for a stray...that was my bird.....I said are we sure....nobody saw one leave the kit.....Scott said its a DQ....20 birds.....called 19....Joe again said are sure you want me to stop time....its just and additional roller entering the kit. They said nope...DQ for 20.....I then told Joe....I dont know man.....are you sure you never seen a bird crash or pull out of the kit..he said no..he saw one hit the tree but took back off....eveyone was sure that 18 were released.....and I am pretty sure now..because I am still missing one...the only think I can think of is that I am at work my son had a friend over and showed him the pigeons....now...He has let a bird out on accident more times then I can shake a stick at...so I could see him letting a bird out of my A team on accident and then a Cooper getting it....but he swears he did not open a door....I think he is scared to tell the truth because he knows not to mess with birds when a fly is coming up....that is the only theory..because it is impossible to not have 19...I have 19 bands written down...and I put 19 out of the kit box to a carrying box and the 19 back into the kit box....so....I am still missing a bird.....I know one did not hit...because its damn near impossible to not see it in my back yard....
But it is what it is.....and I think we are human and the rules were not followed and the adverse situation or out of normal situation played into it big time...but what we have to remember is usually the only time rules are pushed is during adverse wierd situations....
The other fact is this....the birds would not have been at the top anyway.....so it really does not matter to me....and even if they were rocking....The ruling is final and that is it.......and it was a hard ruling...because a lot was happening at one time....so I am fine with eveything...I have judged and reffed enough events to know that nobody has a rule book memorized...and wrong decisions are made and it is ok....that is how we learn....that is why we have instant replay for some sports...or freeze frame photography...or panel judging.....if the birds would have continued to have been scored by the rules.....we could have all sat down at the table.....waited for the birds to fly in and check if it was part of the team....I always record my band numbers before a fly.....as part of my head count...and we could have verified if that was my bird or part of the team. and "simply" deducted one point from each break....
but again..its easy to be an arm chair quarter back of looking at something after the fact...
rock and ROLL
Paul
No need to make a big deal....All I am stating is what happened..
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Pogohawk
140 posts
May 26, 2010
8:56 AM
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Scott, I thought that the two auction kits you flew did pretty damn good. You had both of them flying well. At the end of the day you flew another colorful kit. What are those birds out of? It looked like a few bellnecks and other colors? All younger birds it seemed.
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Scott
3048 posts
May 26, 2010
9:35 AM
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Pogo.. you must be thinking of the other Scott Campbell in Utah..
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2422 posts
May 26, 2010
12:54 PM
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Ken,
You are correct. We had the same discussion during our Regional Fly because I advised our first flyer that he could adjust his declared number after a bird crashed. Our judge, Dave Szabatura, was on top of the rules, however, and corrected me. We consulted the rules, of course and Dave was on the money. Afterward, I announced it to all the fliers so they would not be confused as to the difference in the WC and NBRC rules. And it is up to the judge to make the offical count of the birds as they exit the kitbox and make the call as to whether or not it is correct. It doesn't matter who else confirms or denies the judge's count. He rules the day, but he can't alter the rules. Had you flown and even won the World Cup, Paul,and it was contested, I believe that you would have been DQ'd in the end, whether the judge said it was ok to release another bird or not. In the end, we are all, as participants, responsible for knowing the rules that govern the fly.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 26, 2010 12:57 PM
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kcfirl
643 posts
May 26, 2010
1:55 PM
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Hi Cliff, Scott, any other WC committee members. The rule about declaring the exact number and then releasing only that number is dumb. I have had problems with it before while judging when it couldn;t be determined how many were inittialyy released due to trees and shrubs and houses blocking line of site.
The rule was put in beacuase some yahoos were blasting pigeons out of the air and changing the number in the kit. It has caused unintended consequences.
I feel any number of birds from 15-20 should be allowed regardless of what is called.
Best Regards,
Ken
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JMUrbon
1038 posts
May 26, 2010
4:37 PM
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Now wait a minute guys. There are fliers that release birds from different kit boxes all the time. Ther is nothing that states that they all have to come out of the same box. If 18 birds came out of the first box then he is able to release one from another box. The fact that happened here is that after looking around to make sure no birds were down the judge told Paul he could release another because he had to fly 19 birds. The kit should have stayed on the clock and the discussion as to what the rules state should have taken place after the fact. You cant go back and re-judge the kit because of an error but you can DQ them. I am not saying the judge is wrong in his ruling here because it is his call and his alone to make but the kit should have been judged and then discussions as to a DQ or not. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on May 26, 2010 4:38 PM
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rookie from ct
GOLD MEMBER
282 posts
May 26, 2010
5:09 PM
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Thank you but no thank you I just made up my mind after kicking it back and forth for over 4 years I will stay in my own back yard and everyone and the brother and sister can come over but I will never fly comp. Dennis
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JMUrbon
1039 posts
May 26, 2010
5:14 PM
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Well thats a hell of an attitude to have Dennis. Were did that have anything to do with the subject at hand. In fact you probably wouldnt have anyway. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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rookie from ct
GOLD MEMBER
283 posts
May 26, 2010
5:23 PM
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What is the subject in hand a judge not knowing the fly rules, sure release a another bird . Dennis
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JMUrbon
1040 posts
May 26, 2010
6:04 PM
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actually the judge followed the rules to the letter. I just feel to avoid any confusion and or contreversy he should have scored them for the remainder of the fly and the made his decision. The end result may very well have been the same but once you take him off the clock there is no going back. As it turns out that extra bird was in fact one of Pauls birds but not from his loft but rather from a neighbos loft down the road. Paul had all of his birds listed on a sheet of paper for the judge to see. Like I said the end result could very well have been the same but we will never know. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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macsrollers
305 posts
May 26, 2010
11:08 PM
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Seems like anything can and will happen on fly day! Congratulations Scott and Paul on your fine accomplishment of reaching the finals. There are so many highs and lows in this hobby, and seems like the lows often outnumber the highs so we really need to enjoy the highs while we can! I went from the high of barely winning my region by less then 3 pts. to the low of losing a quarter of my team to a falcon driven overfly in a 48 hour period. And then the high of my birds breaking 6 times the first 5 minutes of the finals and lookign like they might be warming up, to the low of them shutting down and only 3 more breaks the rest of the time. And the definite low of being given a 1.0 quality! But, like Scott and Paul, I am glad for the experience and for meeting Adrian, as well as being in the group of flyers that love the same hobby as me that were fortunate to qualify for the finals. We are know a part of history as the 2010 World Cup finalists. Now we are in the present and looking towards the future. Like Scott said, you lick your wounds and move forward. If you can't do that then you are in the wrong hobby if you want to compete with these birds. We are dealing with humans, animals, and Mother Nature. No one has full control of that! Enjoy your next fly! Don M Macs Rollers
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
657 posts
May 27, 2010
4:13 AM
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I agree with Ken, the rule is dumb and serves no purpose. Change it to be the same as the NBRC rules.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Velo99
2293 posts
May 27, 2010
5:16 AM
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from the WC rule book
Time-in. The flyer shall announce to the judge the number of birds that are being flown prior to release of the birds. No additions or subtractions are allowed after release, but the flyer is allowed to chase up any birds that land or hit before time is called in. If the number of birds released is different from the number of birds declared to the judge the kit shall be disqualified. The flyer has up to 5 minutes after release in which to declare time-in. If the flyer does not call start or time-in earlier, scoring begins automatically five minutes after release. Any interference with the kit after time-in may lead to disqualification. Attempts to ward off birds of prey are allowed, but any directly related kit activity shall not be scored.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__18___()_)\__\
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gotspin7
2672 posts
May 27, 2010
6:02 AM
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Guys,
I feel the same way! LOL... Now getting them lined up for the next fly, no crying here. I still think that Adrian is a great job and there is nothing wrong with the rules. Just have to follow them is all...LOL
Don, I really enjoy your posts bro. How far from the strip do you live? e-mail me when you got a minute, gotspin7@yahoo.com
Thanks!
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Salvador Ortiz
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2423 posts
May 27, 2010
6:38 AM
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Good discussion, gentlemen. Through discussions like these we are all able to understand the rules better and make improvements when needed.
Calling a WC rule dumb is not exactly how I would describe it, but I fail to see how this particular rule helps us breed better Rollers, levels the playing field, or in any way enhances the WC fly. I don't know of any eye-witness reports of flyers actually shooting birds out of the air, but I know that the question was raised as to whether or not it was possible within the rules as written.
The original rule, still being used by the NBRC today, does not seem to hamper the flyer's ability to get a kit in the air and it does nt put undue pressure on the judge and the flyer. For the WC to change a rule that works for most flyers most of the time, to a ruling that seems to hurt more than it helps .......could be defined as NOT WELL THOUGHT OUT.
It is a rule that severely punishes an honest mistake made by the flyer and/or judge. In this case, I fail to see how DQing the flyer serves any purpose. Had the WC flyers had a vote in such a rule, rather than only the EC, I would have more faith in the relevancy of this rule. Remember, only the NBRC requires a flyer vote for rule changes.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 27, 2010 6:39 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2424 posts
May 27, 2010
6:41 AM
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PS. Ken,
"IF" there were "Yahoos Blasting birds"... One would think the first thought would be to ban the use of guns on pigeons during competition. Problem solved.
Cliff
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
658 posts
May 27, 2010
7:49 AM
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Cliff,
I agree, we need RB to bring this to the EC as it serves no purpose. As far as shooting birds out of the air, I would make that a draconian penalty. Lifetime DQ from the WC. Do we really want anyone that is that callous flying in our competitions?
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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kcfirl
644 posts
May 27, 2010
8:54 AM
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Cliff,
I agree. IF blasting birds out of the air is the issue - that is what the rule should address directly.
Joe - the rules do not allow a guy to call 19, release 18, and then when the judge decides there are only 18 to release another.
I don't agree with the rule, merely trying to explain to all what the rule is.
I had almost this exact thing happen in Oullette's region right after the rule changed. I was judging a guy and he called 19 and we could only see 18 from where I stood. From then on I assumed the flyer had one outbird and we continued judging. Of course, the flyer was then not allowed any addiitonal outbirds in order to score for the remainder of the fly.
Best Regards,
Ken
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BA Rollers
341 posts
May 27, 2010
1:09 PM
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Guys, the lead extraction method described was only part of the genesis for this rule wording. To my knowledge at the time it was being discussed (my RD actually does his job and consults the flyers) there were only a few instances of this shooting thing that happened. I can only recall it being brought up once but there by have been a few more. Besides that another situation that arose during a WC fly (I can't recall it if was a regional or finals fly) was that a flyer released his birds and one bird bumped hard and went to the roof and sat. The flyer stated the bird would not count and released another one to replace it since they were not on the clock yet. Per the old wording this could be assumed acceptable. Wording was put in place to prevent this from happening again.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2425 posts
May 27, 2010
1:27 PM
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Brian,
I see no problem with giving the flyer the latitude to get a team of birds of the correct number in the air and then calling time in. Flyers these days have so many strikes against them already, why continue to make it harder on them? In my opinion, it's what the birds do in the air after time in is called, that should count...not a bullshit DQ because of some technicality in the rules. Like I said, I don't see how this helps us breed better birds or level the playing field.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 27, 2010 1:29 PM
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JMUrbon
1041 posts
May 27, 2010
9:47 PM
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I understand the rules Ken but the fact is he did allow Paul to release another bird and then DQ'd the kit after the (stray) bird entered the kit. All I am saying is judge the birds and then discuss the subject of whether to DQ the kit or not after time is up. You can always DQ the kit later but you certainly can not rejudge the kit if you decide the rules were in the flyers favor. I realize that was not the case here but what if it was. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4342 posts
May 28, 2010
4:11 AM
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If Paul declared 19 birds and 18 were counted; he can release another bird as long as time in was not declared by the kit owner. After time was called in and another bird was spotted setting somewhere the fly should have been scored even if that bird joins the kit and is a roller belonging to the kit owner. Joe is right in my opinion.
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What Is Life Without Honor?
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Nick Siders
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Velo99
2294 posts
May 28, 2010
5:03 AM
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Guys
The rule clearly states no additions or subtractions after release. The judge and flyer not being sure of the rules is not a reason to change the rules. In my opinion the judge should actually go over to the box and count the birds prior to release.
Kens post about trees and hedges was dumb.
The judge was dumb for not taking a proper count prior to release. The rules state the flyer declares the number but the judge should confirm that number.
Whats easier,counting birds in a box or in the air?
The count in the air is to deal with scoring and the actual kit number count is to confirm outbirds.
Why are you all blasting the WC EC about the rules when the rules werent followed? I know Paul is a great roller guy and has done a great job with his people. It was a bad deal all the way around. Dont blame the rules,it was a faux pas at Pauls house due to someone not having a copy of the rules in hand and getting a ruling prior to proceding.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__18___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on May 28, 2010 5:22 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2427 posts
May 28, 2010
5:10 AM
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Nick
If I am understanding the WC rule correctly, "Time in" has nothing to do with the count number. Go look at Kenny Hartman's post above.
But if you are talking about the NBRC rules, then you are correct.
Cliff
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3615 posts
May 28, 2010
7:45 AM
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I don't compete so maybe I should stay out of this subject but it is an open forum and an opinion is just that an opinion right.I read the WC rules that Ken post above and it clearly states Time-in. The flyer shall announce to the judge the number of birds that are being flown prior to release of the birds. No additions or subtractions are allowed after release, so with that I take back what I posted earliar( "That's why those rules have to be clear up").
Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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fhtfire
2545 posts
May 28, 2010
1:57 PM
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I found the missing 19 th bird... 19 birds were released... I found the bird in the side of my loft tangled up in a roll of wire... It appears that the bird rolled upon release and got hung up in the roll of wire... The bird was pretty cut up from the wire... Why nobody saw it go down on release... I don't know... But I knew I had ninteen... Not my first rodeo... I knew I did not make a mistake.. I double checked and wrote down the band numbers.... The bird was an o8 and was on my list to stock... She appeared unhurt from the crash... But was cut up from the wire... It was like a fly trap... The more she moved .. The more she was stuck... So if one of us four would have saw her roll between the loft... I could hve easly released her. From the wire... It was a one and a million shot for the bird to roll and fall into the hole of an upright roll of wire... The only reason I found the bird is because my lab kept barking at the wire...maybe in the future a count of the birds in the kitbox should be done... This could happen again... Where a bird can't be seen going down... And u r dq for a missing bird when in fact all the birds were there upon release... If that would hve happened we would not be in this situation... And the birds would hve done just fine with 18... Out bird are usually a non issue with me... And all the birds stayed together the whole fly... The one I added... And the stray... Lol... I jus wish the judge would hve said no to me adding a bird... Then we would not be talking about all this.. Lol... If he would hve said no.... 18 would hve been the count.. The stray would hve went up and we r bk to 19.... I. Would not hve called time in until I looked for the lost bird or noticed the stay... Adding the extra bird is what started it all... I was unsure of the rules... That I why I asked to add... I also assumed the judge would know the rules....either way... Ninteen were called... Ninteen WERE released... Joe knew i was sure I had 19... I kept telling him it's impossible... I counted 19 when I wrote down the bands.. I handled every bird while putting them back in the kit box and put a check mark by each band number I had recorded... I checked 4 times... So I knew it was impossible for a bird to vanish.. Lol..
I also want everyone to know that I am not complaining... I hve been in enough athletic and animal competitions to know to just move on... But I am human and I feel that if the judge should hve known that I could not add a bird..I was dq the second I released that bird.... But it's all good... Can't move forward if I keep looking back... Lol.... Shit happens! ...
Rock and roll
Paul
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michael salus
230 posts
May 28, 2010
2:47 PM
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Paul, You have the right attitude on this. It's water over the dam. My suggestion is that the judge carry a copy of the rule book with him.. that would make sense. You could have looked up the rule within the 5 minute rule and that would have settled the issue. Too bad that all your work didn't get counted... always next year.
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MJ "Peace"
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BA Rollers
342 posts
May 28, 2010
3:29 PM
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Actually the flyer can release his birds in which way he wants. One at a time if he likes. They all don't have to be released from the same box. AND, it is not the responsibility of the judge to count the birds in a kit before release. Per the rules it is the responsibility of the flyer to provide a number of birds to be flown. The flyer chooses the number. The judge just accepts that number and it becomes official. The additions and subtractions isn't in regards to the method of release. It is in regards to the "adjusting" of the number of birds in a kit.
Once while judging a region's WC a flyer asked me (the judge) to count the birds in his kit. I told him it wasn't my job count his birds. I will not be responsible for opening the door of a flyer's box, or having anything to do with close association with the birds or the kit box due to the chance of something occuring which could have an adverse affect on the fly (ie, wrong bird gets out, etc). I told him you tell me the number you want to fly and that is the number. If you can't count, then find one of these guys who can.
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Velo99
2295 posts
May 28, 2010
3:48 PM
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Thats right Brian. The time doesnt start til the last bird of the declared number is released. I guess as flyers we need to step up to the plate to insure that the judge gets an accurate count on release.
You can walk around with that last bird in your hand for an hour if you wanted to.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__18___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2010 3:54 PM
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winwardrollers
464 posts
May 28, 2010
4:41 PM
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Brian
Right on with your post. I'm not counting birds in a kit box before a fly nor should any judge.
Any bird rolling down on release is more than likely a problem bird anyway, should have just flew 18 birds to start with and we would not be have this discussion.
I do think judging should have continued from what I have heard so far, but I was not their. I sounds like the kit was having an off day as is...it would be another thing if the birds were on...so a DQ is not going to make much differant than a handful of points.
Like they say there is always another year...lol ..that always makes you feel better.
Bwinward
Last Edited by on May 28, 2010 10:04 PM
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fhtfire
2546 posts
May 29, 2010
9:00 AM
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Brad,
That statement of a bird bumping out of the box is most likely a problem bird is totally false. ANYTHING can happen when you open the door. The hen you are talking about has been in the team since 2008. She has been solid and actually never bumped in her life. Sometimes things just happen...these birds are living creatures...not robots. My problem birds were weeded out. I had no issues with any bird in the kit. Hell Brad....how long have you been walking....40 years...maybe more...and you are telling me you have never tripped. Get my point.
I have some of the best flys in my life with a bird bumping out of the box...and I have had some of the worst flys with no birds bumping...
THe kit was not having a real off day...they were working....and I saw some real nice breaks after I was DQ and Joe did too. But were they in championship form...nope...they flew just like the other 20 or so kits in Cali....the weird weather jacked us all up.
Second....I know its just a handful of points....But sometimes when you do all the work to get them ready...you at least want to finish what you started....or at least get a chance to dance. Hey..if I do something wrong and the birds DQ no problemo..but when all I do is call out my birds..open the door and stray birds are DQ me.....THe judge give me permission to DQ my own team.....that is not the same as my birds landing early.....thats when I say there is always next year.
I dont know about you..but I would much rather have a handful of points then a DQ.....THe point is not about how many points anyway.
I guess I should have looked into my crystal ball and said oh...this old bird that has been a backbone of the team....and has never had ANY issue...is going to decide to have a hic up on fly day....I am going to pull it....guess what no crystal ball....and trust me..if I knew the bird was going to have a little issue....or showed a sign...I would have pulled it...why do you think I only flew 19....I had the birds to fly 20..but none were good enough.
The other thing is this....that bird is the same bird you like in the Pre lims...the little lavender looking one...she is a real light mealy bar....she is the one that you commented on...I was actually shocked when I noticed it was her.
But....there is always next year...LOL
The fact of the matter is that the whole thing just went wrong....
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on May 29, 2010 9:04 AM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
659 posts
May 29, 2010
9:14 AM
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Paul,
You are right, anything can happen on fly day. Birds that are prepped to spin can easily make a mistake on release. Have had it happen also and it was never a problem bird, almost always a solid performer that was just keyed up and ready to perform. Better luck this fall!!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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fhtfire
2547 posts
May 29, 2010
11:55 AM
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Thanks Joe....
My foundation cock that I flew in 03...crashed easy one time and totally plowed dirt the second time.....nursed it back to health and flew it for another year with no problem at all and it was a true rocket. A hawk was circling above when it decided to bump hard....was it the bird or did it notice the hawk and it got scared and went into the roll...but all I know that in two years of flying that was the only time he bumped. He is the Grand father, father, Uncle, and Great Uncle to just about eveything I have in my stock.
My foundation cock on the ruby side bumped once in two years of flying. Again he is in everything I got and my birds are pretty stable. So I just feel the birds can just have an off day for whatever reason.
The birds have been flying weird because of the weather patterns...so it did not surprise me that things were going wrong.
Rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2548 posts
May 29, 2010
11:57 AM
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Oh
and your are right.....time to get ready for the Fall...I am happy it is over I am going to pull for stock now..
Scott...I am going to pull that little blue check hen for sure....I will fly the Mealy that crashed another six months before I try her for stock...The blue bar in the kit...I will fly another couple of months....
Good luck to you Joe in the Fall!!
ROck and ROLL
Paul
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