PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3616 posts
May 29, 2010
12:00 PM
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I would rather have a number be it 27 or 30 than a DQ anytime.with a number at least I got something to brag about but a DQ you didn't stand a chance.
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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winwardrollers
465 posts
May 29, 2010
5:19 PM
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Paul
Sorry to hear it either way.
bwinward
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Scott
3050 posts
May 29, 2010
6:20 PM
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It isn't for everybody.. it takes a fair amount of guts.
(Thank you but no thank you I just made up my mind after kicking it back and forth for over 4 years I will stay in my own back yard and everyone and the brother and sister can come over but I will never fly comp. Dennis )
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on May 29, 2010 6:21 PM
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winwardrollers
466 posts
May 29, 2010
8:33 PM
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I was going to predict the both of you would get in the top 20 and one would end up in the top ten. I was going off of fly history and... was mainly betting on... you would have a much better fly that your regionals.
Glad I didn't go public with that..lol
We will see what the guys in my area do in the morning.
bwinward
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Scott
3051 posts
May 29, 2010
8:35 PM
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Fooled ya didn't we LOL
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on May 29, 2010 8:35 PM
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fhtfire
2549 posts
May 29, 2010
8:59 PM
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Brad....I am glad too...LOL......Hey...this is pigeon flying for sure...never know what is going to happen....this is not the first agony of defeat..and it will not be the last...LOL....
Keep us updated Brad...I really hope someone in the US starts putting up some good scores....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2428 posts
Jun 01, 2010
5:46 AM
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Paul
Had you and Adrian both counted the birds in the box and agreed 19 were in there, I bet you would have a score on the sheet instead of a DQ.
I agree the judge made a mistake but like you said, shit happens.
Murphy's law is always at work on fly day.
I strongly recommend , ALL WC flyers have your kit number confirmed by the judge, BEFORE release. Once they are in the air, it is too late if a question arises.
Glad you found that bird.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2429 posts
Jun 01, 2010
5:47 AM
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Kenny
I think time will automatically start 5 minutes after the first bird is released. Carrying the last bird around in your pocket for an hour, will not, in all probability, get you anything other than a DQ. IE, you declare 18 birds but that eighteenth bird sits in your pocket = DQ because only 17 birds in the air. Right?
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2430 posts
Jun 01, 2010
5:49 AM
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Brian
It is the judges job to count the birds. He has to verify the number declared. Right? A judge has the options to count the birds in the air or in the box. I see no rule saying that a judge MUST NOT COUNT THE BIRDS IN THE BOX.
I have seen kit boxes, where it would be very difficult if not impossible , to count birds in the box. But I see your position and it is the judge's prerogative where he feels he can get the best count. Birds on edge will seldom sit quietly for one to count them, anyway.
Cliff
I did a little quick study on why the WC changed the rule. It seems a few years back, there was an incident during the finals there the kit was released and scored after the 20 minutes was up the flyer re- opened the kit box to let the birds in and a bird or birds flew out. NOW WHAT? No rule covers that at that time. SNAFU TIME! There may be other incidents also but that is what I turned up
So because of that incident and one incident I was told of, where "yahoos blasted out birds", we have the present, kit declare rule.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2431 posts
Jun 01, 2010
5:55 AM
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Question:
1.The judge refuses to count the birds in the box to verify the kit count. It's a very windy day and the birds are blown out of sight. The kit number is declared to be 18 but only 17 return. Now what???
2. A hawk hits the kit on release before all birds are even out of the box. After a 5 minute time out the declared kit of 20 returns as a kit of 19. Now what???
We can only guess and surmise whether the kit declaration was correct, if the hawk took a bird or if birds rolled down. But had the judge confirmed the number declared BEFORE release, we would at least have something to hang our hat on.
Every situation is different, however, and NO rule can be written that will cover all situations.
Cliff
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winwardrollers
469 posts
Jun 01, 2010
2:35 PM
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Cliff
I would judge the kit for 20 minutes and count one out bird the entire time for both situations. The amount of birds were declared and would not DQ either situation. I could careless how many birds there are as long as flyer has 15 to 20 birds no more no less. His declaration of birds is only important to me because that will not change during fly time.
Now if the guy turned out more than 20 birds he's DQ.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2010 4:04 PM
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Velo99
2296 posts
Jun 01, 2010
3:47 PM
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Cliff,
It says after release.No clarifier. I think we found another gray area. The consensus has been when the last bird leaves the kitbox. At least among the judges that have been here.
The subject of this excercise has been an EXTRA bird not one that was released with the kit and not kitting.
The extra bird is clearly addressed in the rules.
The rules also state the flyer is to declare the number of birds. Brian brought up a good point. If the judge is counting the birds and one gets out or one that wasnt supposed to get out is released...
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__18___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2010 3:52 PM
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BA Rollers
345 posts
Jun 01, 2010
8:10 PM
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Cliff, the rules do not mandate the judge must count the birds in the box. In fact it doesn't state he must count them at all. But obviously he must count them before time in is called so that he knows how to proceed from there. It rather simple in a way. The flyers chooses the number to be flown. Open the door and let them go. When time in is called the number should match what the flyer stated, or concessions made to decipher any events that led up to there not being the required amount in the kit at the moment the birds are put on the clock. Usually a judge, including myself, will ask others to count the birds in the kit as well. I have even asked the scribe and anyone standing close to get a count on a kit during a fly when there have been birds coming and going. Its difficult enough for a judge to try and actually judge kit performance while trying to count pigeons. Its often impossible sometimes.
As for your scenarios, I agree with Brad that one out bird would be applied.
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Squabby*32
271 posts
Jun 02, 2010
12:47 AM
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Paul, you saw one of my blacks after I released my team for last years' Fall Fly. Straight down to the middle of the street if you remember. He did recover and continued to do his thing at the proper height. That never happened until that day and from that experience, I think I can relate to how you are feeling about your bird doing that on your fly day.
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DJJeffman Spinners
ATAPWGIYAHTLY
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2440 posts
Jun 02, 2010
7:55 AM
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Kenny
You are right about the gray area and the fact that mistakes have been made......We have also brought to light that IF the judge fails to confirm the kit number declared before it leaves his sight, then the declaration cannot be confirmed at all and the whole scenario is useless.
If we believe that this numbers game must continue, find a better way for the judge AND THE FLYER to agree on the kit numbers......a way where there is NO DOUBT. The NBRC is still using the original WC rule and I am not aware of any problems that it creates. That me a better way to go.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2441 posts
Jun 02, 2010
8:00 AM
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PS Kenny
As I understand it, the 5 minute clock starts when the kit door opens, right? Time in will then start at that time unless a time out is given. Gray area? I am not so sure. The kit declaration will be made before the kit door opens and the kit will go on the score clock on or before 5 minutes..... regardless of birds in the box, in the air or in a tree. As I understand the WC rules, the number released, must be what the flyer has declared, regardless of when time in is called.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2442 posts
Jun 02, 2010
8:08 AM
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Brian
Sorry but I have to disagree with you here, my friend. Whenever we allow and condone Judges, to let by-standers make critical visual observations related to judging a kit, observations that could lead to DQ's or affect point totals.... we are making a huge mistake.
NO ONE but the judge should confirm the kit declaration, declare out birds, not even the scribe. I have seen what you describe, in my own region as well, and it is becoming more commonplace all the time. But I think it is asking for trouble.
Only the judge can observe the kit from the plot of ground he occupies and that one fact alone can change the visual perspective enough to allow differences of opinions as to the count, differences we do not need. I have seen a judge rely on a bystander's report that a bird was down (when it was not), failing to count the birds in the kit on his own in an active kit, and it affected the total score in a major way, and possibly affected the qualifer.
The judge is the one single person who must judge the kit and all elements involved in scoring the kit and calling infractions, not the scribe, not the by-standers, not the flyer's best buds and not the flyer's nay-sayers.
If judging a kit needs to be a "TEAM" effort, let's add the necessary words to the fly rules and hash this out. There is no way two umpires can stand behind home plate.
I am 100% against allowing anyone but the judge to make counts, or to watch out birds. ALL kits must be judged the same way. If one kit is judged by one set of eyes and the next, the judge has "HELP"........ Does that sound fair?
Do we have rules that look good on paper but are not very realistic or don't really work in everyday kit scoring situations? Sure seems like it.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2010 8:08 AM
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winwardrollers
473 posts
Jun 02, 2010
9:44 AM
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Cliff
Brian understands ...NO One... but the judge confirms the kit declaration. The law of witnesses is a good thing.( two or three observing the same thing) Judge has the final say and basically the only say.
bwinward
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2444 posts
Jun 02, 2010
11:46 AM
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Brad
For Example: During a WC finals a few years back, 2 birds rolled deep, very deep, and then they were chasing the kit. The judge asked a by-stander to WATCH THOSE OUT BIRDS. (Very common) The judge was focused on the kit but had those two birds both flipped or rolled, they both would now be out birds and the next break by the kit would not count. Can we expect by-standers to judge whether the birds that left the kit performed before reaching the kit,and thus should be declared outbirds? OR is that the judge's responsibility?
And this is just another example, like the one I sited above, of what can happen when people (other than the judge) make observations that can affect the score. If the judge needs help.... he needs the same help at each and every kit judged. If we have judges that need confirmation of his count of the number of birds in the kit ....why do we expect him to count birds in a break without confirmation? ONLY the World Cup DQ's a kit because of a potential question with the declared kit size. If the kit size is not confirmed before they leave the sight of the judge, then the whole reason for declaring kit size is NOW gone.
If the judge has the "ONLY SAY" then let him say without interference or help from anyone, such as,"You watch the out birds and tell me if they spin before reaching the kit," or "How many birds do you count , I count X#", and "Which way did the kit go?"
????
Cliff
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winwardrollers
474 posts
Jun 02, 2010
12:34 PM
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Cliff
Your to full of "IF's".. judging in not as hard as you are making it out to be.
Judges don't ask for help watching returning birds, the help is usually over bonehead birds that are continally out. I simply point to continually out birds with my hand and arms for two reasons; it helps me keep track of them, without others help most of the time and by-stand bull shippers can see what is going on.
The judge you are talking about in your last sentence is the judge we invite go help out the show guys with judging, and never invite back to judge fly comps.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2010 2:57 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2445 posts
Jun 02, 2010
12:50 PM
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Brad,
You'd be surprised....and be careful what you say about your friends! LOL! But seriously, these are not merely, "What ifs". They represent scenarios and actual experience that I have had...and that other flyers report to me or question of me, as National Fly Director.
And I have to disagree with you. I don't think that judging is really all that easy. I think that it is very difficult....especially to do it well. It is easy, as human beings, to form bad habits and develop crutches. That's normal. I'm just pointing them out (when they are not based on actual rules)so they don't evolve into standard procedures and protocols without any real basis other than the fact that "others do it." We owe all our judges a debt of gratitude for the task that they undertake in trying to evaluate our kits.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2010 1:03 PM
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winwardrollers
475 posts
Jun 02, 2010
6:43 PM
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Cliff
I stated.."judging in not as hard as... you... are making it out to be.
It not an easy job, no doubt but some want to make a rule for every scenario, which is just ridiculously impossible.
The judges word goes if there is a gray area.
Bwinward
Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2010 8:36 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2447 posts
Jun 03, 2010
6:28 AM
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Brad
Thanks for the clarification....The point is: We have a history of many occaisions where WC finals judges let by-standers make visual observations that could change the outcome of the fly. The judge is asking by-standers to "HELP" him watch out birds, confirm counts, etc.
If we all feel that this is acceptable, then we will continue down this path. No rule changes necessary. I personally feel that ONLY the judge should make such calls. But if this is how we want to go, we will just have to watch and wait to see how it plays out.
Cliff
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Scott
3065 posts
Jun 03, 2010
8:24 AM
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I have no problem (nor do most) asking someone to keep an eye on the out birds .. or do a count.. but I will make sure its right before any judging is affected.
Cliff.. this over thinking micro manage and a rule for every thing will implode the fly.. it isn't that difficult to put the best teams forward
(I am 100% against allowing anyone but the judge to make counts, or to watch out birds.)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2010 8:25 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2448 posts
Jun 03, 2010
11:24 AM
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Scott
Ok, the judge has asked you to "keep an eye" on two birds that spun from the kit in the last break and they are chasing the kit. Right now they are NOT considered out birds and the kit, can continue to score. If the kit breaks and the two birds returning to the kit BUT are NOT in the kit also break.... That break should not be scored RIGHT?
After a while you look at the kit and then look back at your two birds you supposed to be watching just as you think they both may have flipped. Do you immediately report to the judge that we now have two out birds? Is that your job as a by-stander or is it the responsibility of the judge to determine out birds? The judge is the judge, no rule changes needed, no micro-managing, but a by-stander given the responsibility to make calls that can effect the score....... IS NOT A GOOD IDEA. Once the returning birds to a kit have been called out by the judge .....then and only then can someone keep an eye on them. The judge should be able to tell when outbirds return to the kit.
Watching "OUTBIRDS" ( birds called out by the judge) is one thing, but watching birds out of the kit (Birds returning to the kit from a break) but chasing the kit is something different.
Do you see the distinction?
Cliff
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Scott
3068 posts
Jun 03, 2010
12:09 PM
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Cliff.. you are over thinking it.. it isn't that complicated
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2010 12:10 PM
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BA Rollers
346 posts
Jun 03, 2010
12:34 PM
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Cliff, I agree with Scott and Brad, you are waaaaaaaaaay over psycho-analyzing this judging deal. Our rules are so vague and open to interpretation that anything can and will happen. Its pigeons flying for gawd's sake. If I judge again you bet I will always call on others to aid in various aspects such as counting the kit or watching out birds etc. Don't like it? Then get a rule passed that I can't judge. Guess what Cliff. Every pigeon club in this country is suffering a declining membership. Every different facet of pigeon racing is dieing on the vine and instead of doing everything to encourage its growth, we nick pick it to death with little shit like this until people just want to move on.
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winwardrollers
476 posts
Jun 03, 2010
12:53 PM
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Cliff
These two out birds you keep proposing seem to be more of a flyer's problem than a judges. It sounds like the bird two birds don't return to the kit well enough to be in the kit in the first place or the kit doesn't have enough sense to wait for members.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2010 1:13 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2449 posts
Jun 03, 2010
1:11 PM
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Brian,
On the contrary, the number of kits entered in NBRC competition has grown every year during my tenure as Fly Director. In 2009 we set an all-time record. All I did was disagree with a judge allowing by-standers to help the judge in ways that could affect the score. If you think it is peachy, fine. I think it is a mistake and not a good idea.
Keeping an eye on birds that have been called "out" by the judge is fine. Allowing by-standers to tell the judge when trailing birds become out birds, is something I feel is looking for trouble.
It amazes me that we always appear to have "rules" that aren't even on the books from reading some of the posts in this discussion as well as others.
Maybe you would like to listen to all the valid complaints brought to me after each NCF, that are linked to vague rules, NO rules, judging errors, etc. I am looking to taking some time off from this position . I could put in a good word for you.
Cliff
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Alohazona
713 posts
Jun 03, 2010
1:24 PM
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I haven't read into these long winded posts too much,but I'm sure there's some merit in them.
One thing I know for sure,is that I pulled from these posts and some other threads, the importance of kitting.It has helped me to yank the out birds.Focus is now on the core individuals, and the out fliers are being sent packing or re-classified......Aloha,Todd
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2450 posts
Jun 03, 2010
2:07 PM
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Brad
This incident is not "proposed". It happened during a WC finals. The two deep birds were chasing the kit the best they could. They were NOT OUT BIRDS, they were birds returning directly to the kit. For the judge to assign a by-stander to watch those birds and tell the judge if they become out birds, is not a good idea, in my opinion. The by-stander has now become a judge and his judgement could effect the score. TO ME, that is wrong, by-standers are not judges, not scribes, and not judges helpers. We don't need to change the rules, we just need to use a little more common sense.
Cliff
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Scott
3069 posts
Jun 03, 2010
2:18 PM
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Cliff.. you should have broke one of his fingers .. that would stop that !!!! sheeze man CHILL lol
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4353 posts
Jun 03, 2010
2:42 PM
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Your deep birds are out birds this year; not unless all your birds are deep on your half and three quarter turns which have not happened this year, either. May be next year, huh? Just joking fellas(LOL). Everything is going a long just fine in this year's WC.
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What Is Life Without Honor?
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Nick Siders
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3620 posts
Jun 03, 2010
3:52 PM
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Let me see if I'm following this right.if the teams breaks and 2 birds lets say were deeper and are making their way back to the kit but the kit decide to break again and the 2 birds haven't catch up yet but roll also then the kit doesn't score its that correct..?
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2010 3:53 PM
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Velo99
2297 posts
Jun 03, 2010
4:21 PM
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As long as they are returning to the kit DIRECTLY from a roll they are not considered out birds. If the kits breaks it should be counted because they birds are not outbirds.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__18___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2010 4:22 PM
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fhtfire
2553 posts
Jun 03, 2010
6:37 PM
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Kenny is right...
If two birds roll and head Directly back to the kit..they are not considered out. That does not mean a break either...if two birds roll by themselves and then head back and the kit breaks you get scored...
But..if those birds turn away from the kit one second they are out...if they hesitate out of the roll...exit facing the wrong way...they are out birds..
To me this has been a no brainer...but I have seen judges can two birds out that rolled by themselves and the judge said they were out because the birds were not involved in a break of 5...but the rules state roll no break...anyway..
Rock and ROLL
paul
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RodSD
411 posts
Jun 03, 2010
7:30 PM
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I prefer stricter judge. That way there is no "if." (There is a reason why rules and rule book are created.) Gray areas definitely need to be clarified.
If the judge is less strict, there might be a biased interpretation and that is the last thing I have in mind if I am competing.
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winwardrollers
477 posts
Jun 04, 2010
7:31 AM
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RodSd
What..if..during a kit competition a few kits were flown before lunch scored and recorded. Guys took a break for lunch. One of the bystanders eat something during lunch time that upset his stomach and upon returning to the competition blew his shirts full of air. This was loud enough commotion that it caused the present stiff kit being judged to trip and a ten bird break was awarded. It was obvious that the two were related. Is this an unfair advantage for those judged before the lunch hour? We can write what "if"s endlessly, no limit, some will be simply ridiculous.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Jun 04, 2010 11:44 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2451 posts
Jun 08, 2010
7:17 AM
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Scott
It seems to me that your idea of Common sense may leave something to be desired. I was just thinking how you were trying to do the right thing by taking a DQ and saving time for the next flyer. Now you want me to do bodily injury because I have feel the judge should make all the calls involved, that could effect the score. LOL!
It is just some silly pigeon games that some want to elevate to the most prestigious pigeon fly. TIC
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2452 posts
Jun 08, 2010
7:18 AM
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Nick
I like that thought... Maybe next year? Positive thinking!
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2453 posts
Jun 08, 2010
7:19 AM
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Ralph
Per the Rules: birds, that have rolled and are returning directly to the kit, are NOT out birds. BUT.... if they roll before entering the kit or turn away from the kit, they ARE out birds and cannot score till they re- enter the kit.
The kit can continue to score with birds returning to the kit and no more than one out bird.
The critical issue is timing. If the two birds returning directly to the kit but have not joined the kit, roll BEFORE the kit breaks = NO SCORE because we have two out birds. If the kit breaks BEFORE the two trailing birds roll, then the break counts because the returning birds are NOT considered out birds at this point.
If it all happens simultaneously Kit breaks and the returning birds break.... As usual , it's the judges call..... and that is why having a by-stander tell the judge OH looky, those two birds trailing the kit just rolled and became out birds.. Did the judge hear that, before or after he counted birds in the break??
Cliff
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rolleronnie
65 posts
Jun 09, 2010
2:49 PM
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LOL! 94 replies and still going!!! What it comes down to is bad luck. The judges decision is final and nothing is going to change that.
Move on.....
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Promoting The Birmingham Roller
The Greatest Aerial Acrobat!
Come Fly With Us!
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