rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
66 posts
Mar 01, 2004
10:18 PM
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Started this new topic for Eddie who is asking the question:
WHAT COLOR IS THE TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER? EDDIE
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
21 posts
Mar 02, 2004
1:45 PM
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Ha, this will be good. Can't wait to hear the opinions about this one.
Brian.
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nicksiders
25 posts
Mar 02, 2004
2:59 PM
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My guess is purple, orange, and violet.............LOL
I would think:
Blue
Black
Red
Brown
Dilute
BUT, I am sure to be wrong
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Mar 02, 2004
3:52 PM
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Tony I would suggest referring those that would like to know either to Pensoms book "the Birmingham Roller" or to Grahm Dexters book out of England "Winners with Spinners" the crosses for the so called "rare" colors have mostly been bred in the last twenty to thirty years on to still being done today,and theres alot of confusion and dis information for the new guys as far as all this goes,The "Birmingham Roller" is a set breed plain and simple and no you cant change the color and by some mirracle end up with the true breed holding only the color in the gene pool,opinions don't factor in here as far as the differant feather colors and factors,they are as they have been since the Birmingham became an establised breed,all the others have been introduced in recent times through crosses from other breeds,thats all you will get from me on this one,fire away LOL
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
22 posts
Mar 02, 2004
4:55 PM
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For those curious for a slight peek into the original color possibilities of the rolling pigeons of the Birmingham, England area, the origin as we know it for tumbling pigeons selected for rolling quality which eventually became a strain (breed to some) know as the Birmingham Roller, I include this link to one of Pensom's writings which mentions a variety of colors that were present in the birds rolling strains of that area and the ones he used to create his own family.
http://home.inreach.com/ylee/writings.htm
It is possible that many of the veteran roller breeders have read this before but for some of the newer fanciers it might answer a question or two about the possible original colors of the birds used during the construction of what is now considered the Birmingham Roller.
Brian.
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Mar 02, 2004
5:16 PM
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Ok I gotta know how did you come up with the Birmingham Roller being a strain and not a breed ??
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nicksiders
28 posts
Mar 02, 2004
7:39 PM
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Come on guys...........tell us what you feel are the "real" Birmingham Roller colors. We are not supposed to be dicussing what standards and breeders to quote.....LOL
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
23 posts
Mar 02, 2004
8:27 PM
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Scott, I was emphasizing what Pensom and others who have chronicaled the developmental period of tumbling and rolling breeds of that area called their birds. They called them strains rather than breeds. I'm not trying to make an issue. Pensom himself even called the Whittinghams a strain as well as his own, both from the same area. I'm sure you understand what I am saying.
Nick, I don't think what each "feels" is the original colors would answer too many questions, at least not the one to this original post. We can all have our opinions about what we think were original colors but it would be nothing more than conversation because chances are many would disagree with one another. I think we went down that road before. LOL. But to entertain you, based upon what I have read and photos I have seen, original colors most likely included
Ash Red variations (bar, check, velvet, etc)
Blue variations (bar, check, velvet)
Spread combinations of blue and ash red
Piebald combinations of each of the above
Recessive Red
Grizzles
Tortiseshells
Mottles (a form of tiger grizzle)
Possibly even dilutes since I have read about Yellows and Creams and there are two photos in Pensom's book of Recessive Yellow Badges, or so it appears.
Whites (probably homozygous grizzles)
I'm sure there were even some Kites at this time since if you have Tortiseshell you have Kite Bronze. Remove the grizzle factor and you have a kite.
I don't see there being too many others other than those. Almond is a rare possibility. With kite bronze, blue T-patterns and recessive red genes in the lofts, if there were an Almond gene floating around in there, presumably from the ancestors of the rolling breeds there could have easily been almonds too. Many of the other tumblers of historical England had Almonds. Who's to say.
Just my take.
Brian.
PS--pop quiz, if all pigeon colors were at some or another born from the original Wild Type blue, then where did Ash Red (dominant to blue) come from?
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Mar 02, 2004
8:39 PM
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Nick without getting into the genetic terms of colors, factors,and patterns and such,they come in all the wild colors,selfs being,redbar,blue bar,bluecheck,Red check with smokey thrown in on top of them,then you have Rec.Red and delute (yellow),dun,then you have these that come in White flytes,balds,saddles,oddsides,mottles,Rec red spangles,grizzles,and lets not forget spread,Black,ash Red (lavander),the more white you breed the more you get on into pure white,generally the guys that breed the softer colors (lots of white) keep some hard colors around to keep a handle on the white,the wild colors(blue) come in various shades,these are what you'll see pretty much universal here and in the UK and Europe,this stuff isnt a secret by any means it's common knowledge
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mother lode lofts
Guest
Mar 02, 2004
8:56 PM
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Brian Ash red is thought to be one of two mutant genes for color out of wild,now back to the stains,yes Pensom is considered a strain as is Whittingham,SOOOO your point is ?? strains are within breeds Brian,you wanted to use that article as an example and somehow twisted it completly around,how many times is the "Birmingham Roller as a breed mentioned in it ???,Brian the same thing that I was talking about,dis information,it does'nt fly buddy, instead of trying to confuse people why don't you just say "yea I fly the crosses and I'm going to kick Scotts arse with them " LOL,have some respect for the breed Brian instead of trying to dismantle it with the pen and writing out of context
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Mar 02, 2004
9:08 PM
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Brian send me your E-mail scotttam@volcano.net
Scott
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
25 posts
Mar 02, 2004
9:33 PM
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Easy there Tiger..LOL. I'm not pulling any punches bro and I'm definitely not trying to twist anything around. Strain, breed, whatever you like, doesn't matter to me. And no I'm not flying any crosses or mixes or mutts or, well maybe a couple of andalusians...lol. And as for kickin' yer butt in the flys, I think your record speaks for itself doesn't it..lol. I'm down here trying to do battle surrounded by them damn you-know-who "strain" of rollers which means unless I fill the sky with three-month wonders, I won't be knockin' kits with ya in the finals for a while, though I would surely like to someday. One more break in the NBRC Fall Fly and I would have been in...Doh, that still stings..lol.
Brian.
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Mar 02, 2004
9:41 PM
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Brian I think that you like bumping heads as much as I do on this topic LOL,e-mail me though it has nothing to do with this topic
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
26 posts
Mar 02, 2004
9:51 PM
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I emailed yah. In case ya didn't get it it's
McCormicklofts@aol.com.
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Anonymous
Guest
Mar 04, 2004
1:09 PM
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You know, I have been reading the posts on this board for quite some time and most users are courteous and respectful of the opinions and experience shared by others. (Edited By Moderator)
(Edited By Moderator)
For all the honest and sincere guys out there, keep the positive stuff coming. Don't let one bad apple ruin this for everyone!!!
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Mar 15, 2004 8:44 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
28 posts
Mar 04, 2004
3:36 PM
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In Rollers, nothing is as it seems. Everyone has an opinion, some more easily understood than others. Without a broad spectrum of personalities and opinions this might as well be a message board for old ladies sitting around knitting and agreeing on everything, then what is there to talk about? Controversy makes for good conversation. Just learn to filter out what like. I enjoy a little controversy and difference of opinion. Gives me something to write about and interact with my fellow roller enthusiasts. Otherwise I would just end up sitting her wondering when someone is going to post a question in which we will see the same answers repeated. I look at it like when I am sitting around with my fellow pigeon buddies and we start debating about this or that. Might seem kind of rough for someone watching or listening, but in the end it was enjoyable and maybe an opinion or thought process was changed. If nothing else it was merely something to talk about in this sport of flying rollers that we love so much.
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Anonymous
Guest
Mar 04, 2004
4:04 PM
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Very diplomatic response MCCORMICK LOFTS. But the fact is that (Deleted) responds in a way that reminds me of a cobra spitting venom. Spirited conversations are one thing that we all enjoy, but the tone of his responses are much deeper than that. We don't need the venomous attack when he doesn't agree with a post. Frankly I'm surprised at you MCCORMICK LOFTS, for sticking up for him when it's obvious that he dissed' you big time on this board. You might feel that he didn't dis' you, but he did. BIG TIME! I know that I wouldn't be so eager to (deleted). In an earlier post he started the same (deleted) with another guy and ended up trying to make a (deleted) apology but his true character still shows through. He just can't help himself. That type of person has to be-little others in order to feel big and important. Definitely a person with issues!
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Mar 15, 2004 8:47 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
29 posts
Mar 04, 2004
4:35 PM
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Diplomatic, I like that..LOL. I'm the last person that will kiss anyone's (deleted), trust me! I don't let things get to me like other folks do. Yes, ole MotherLode can come off strong, but it's all in how you take it. I like stepping up to challenges. It's fun and enjoyable interaction. I like to think that most people enjoy "spirited" conversations and debate. There is nothing wrong with standing up for and expressing what you truly believe in whether you , me or the Easter Bunny agrees with it. I would rather have someone challenging every post than no one posting at all or tip-toeing around every subject. (deleted), I even instigate some of it, knowing exactly what to expect from some of the guys and it makes for a good "controversial" time. Some people are just hard core and rough while others are laid back and roll with the punches. Bottom line is that we are having fun here, at least I am. Just my .02 I guess.
By the way, do you have a name or handle we can call you besides Anonymous?
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Mar 05, 2004 4:44 PM
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Bootlegger
Guest
Mar 04, 2004
5:04 PM
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To my pigeon and old biker buddies I am known as Bootlegger.
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Mar 04, 2004
6:27 PM
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Who's attacking who here bootlegger,theres no problem here between myself and MC,and why does it seem bother you that there isn't,you want to get extreamly personal and then question my manhood if I respond,so who has the issues here,I guess that we could all act like little girls here and blow in each others ear if that would make you happy,all there are here are opinions, some can be used,some will make people think and some are meaningless and some will ruffle people's feathers excpecially on this topic,oh it just would'nt happen to be my thoughts on this topic that bothers you would it LOL,why is that I get the feeling that you've had a problem with me before here on this site, but you used a different name ???? issues LOL
lets take a vote: Mother lode stays or Mother lode goes,yes or no, if the majority thinks that I should go I'll go
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viper
10 posts
Mar 04, 2004
6:47 PM
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You stay I agree with alot that you say I don't care about what color you have or any body else has but when the door opens they sould preform or they will not stay on my yard.I am new to roller comp.but hope to be in it at the top some day heck even win the big one and to do that you have to listen to the ones thats been there so when they say something that might help me out alittle thank you if not well maybe next time.So just from me mother lode stays and keep responding I'll take all the help that comes this way.
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M.H.
7 posts
Mar 04, 2004
6:55 PM
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Mother lode,I'll vote for you to stay.You keep alot of conversations going so some of us can learn a little and get some entertainment too.Since I can't hear your voice I can't tell if your a (deleted) or not so I'm giving you the benifit of the doubt buddy.
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Mar 05, 2004 4:46 PM
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Bluesman
18 posts
Mar 04, 2004
7:13 PM
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I agree with Viper.Motherlode stays.He might not be a Roller God but at least he will answer everyones post.Thats why we ask questions to get answers.Maybe what works for him might not work for someone else.Then again maybe it will.Thats what makes this hobby so much fun.Learning from each other and trying new things.We all will never agree on everything but we can enjoy each others company.Like someone else said here its like sitting down with a bunch of fellows and having a Goround.In the end we go back to our Lofts and ponder over what was said.David
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
30 posts
Mar 04, 2004
7:28 PM
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Man, kick that cuss bucket (deleted) out of here...LOL. J/K Well bootyshaker, or booty-something or other, (deleted) I can't see your post so I can't remember what the (deleted)you called yourself. Sorry.LOL. Tony, you need to work on that one. :) Anyway Boot, as you can see a lot of people just like to roll with the punches. This is a nice place to hang out. If you don't like what someone has to say, just tune them out or skip their post. There is too much good and enjoyable conversation here to only focus on one haggered old roller flyer with a hard head for the old school checker days. Sorry Scott, I mean venom spitter, three-point shot, had to take it. LOL.
Brian.
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Mar 05, 2004 4:49 PM
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PIGEONBOB
11 posts
Mar 05, 2004
5:12 AM
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If I am the other guy you're talking about (just got a feeling, you know how us "sensitive" guys are), then I'm not using anyone else's name. Motherlode, I think you are a smart man, I just think maybe the trailor fell on your head one time too many. I read a quote that made me think of you. "when a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth about himself, he will either quit being mistaken, or cease to be honest." PS--I vote you stay, people died for our right to freedom of speech, and for our right to disagree with it. Besides, your presence here makes everyone else seem wonderful.
Robert A. Faulkner
Last Edited by PIGEONBOB on Mar 05, 2004 5:21 AM
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Bootlegger
Guest
Mar 05, 2004
11:47 AM
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If you all want to take the verbal abuse that MotherLode spews from time to time then have at it. Where I came from anyone that didn't have the proper respect would get slammed pretty hard. I know what I'm talking about having spent a few years in the California Correctional system. That's right PRISON! Motherlode, I bet you would learn to respect others pretty (deleted) quick. (Deleted). OK, having said my piece I would like to meet you MotherLode. I am in Vacaville and understand you are somewhere pretty close. Maybe in person I wouldn't find you as abrasive as you seem. Or maybe I would? Well what do you say MotherLode? Is my type welcome to come over to your place? We could talk pigeons and suck a few beers.
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Mar 05, 2004 4:51 PM
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Mar 05, 2004
2:37 PM
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Bootlegger I have yet to turn down a pigeon guy to visit,I'm bout 40 mi east of Lodi,I know guys over there are you flying with them ? ,as for Bubba and his friends as exciting as that sounds I think that I'll pass on that one,as for abrasive,naw,but when I get excited I can seem that way on the key board,Bootlegger if your a roller head than yea your more than welcome,but I do want to know who you know over there in the Roller World
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Show Roller
Guest
Mar 05, 2004
4:10 PM
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PigeonBob,
I know when I wrote that Presidents Report a while back and got a little negative after the meeting in Louisville, some of the members came down on me pretty hard.Not real
sure Mother Lodes technique would work real well for us.
I have found you catch more flys with honey than vinegar.
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Mar 05, 2004
6:06 PM
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Robert why is it everyone of your posts to me make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside LOL
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nicksiders
30 posts
Mar 05, 2004
7:35 PM
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Well, I think "real" roller colors are black, blue, brown, red, white, and dilute (I snuck white in on ya).
I have not been offended by anything that has been said on the website. I appreciate the exuberance of some people in the pigeon hobby.
I tend to be somewhat of a smart a-- sometimes and I am opinionated all of the time.
I LOVE YOU, MAN!
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Mar 05, 2004
11:02 PM
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Nick could you repeat those colors just one more time for us LOL,yea those will work but how bout a bird thats just resembles brown LOL
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STARFIRE
33 posts
Mar 07, 2004
5:04 PM
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Hey Guys:
You want to see some Pensom colors? Champions at that .Go to NBRC May -June 2002 issue.Page 70.These are funnylooking hard colored birds.No blues no bars no checks.LOL
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PIGEONBOB
12 posts
Mar 08, 2004
7:35 AM
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MLode--Ref. your memo of 05-Mar-04, 6:06--In answer to your question: In all seriousness, I'm hoping you realize from my comments just how you make others feel. That's all, I'm really a heck of a nice guy and I'm sure you are too and I hope you have a great year. Bob not Robert---------
Robert A. Faulkner
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Bluesman
20 posts
Mar 08, 2004
3:59 PM
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Actually there is only 3 colors.Ash Red,Black & Brown.Anything else is a modifier or factor.David
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nicksiders
34 posts
Mar 08, 2004
7:50 PM
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I think it has been resolved: ash red, black, and brown. Other colors are genetic variations of these three colors. I am believing that these are the colors of all pigeons and not just rollers.
Good post - it wil;l probably bring must of us back to reality and I think a lot of us knew this, we just tried to make more out of this then there actually was.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
38 posts
Mar 08, 2004
9:33 PM
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David, actually it's blue, not black. Black is the result of at least one dose of the spread factor in combination with blue. Any other color than ash red, blue and brown is a mutation from wild form (blue) including ash red which is dominant to blue. Speaking of brown, has anyone who understands what brown is when they see it seen a true brown roller? I haven't and was wondering if anyone has seen one or has one. Just curious. It's a genetically weaker color similar to dilute. Just wondering if anyone has any (not the ones that look brown...lol) and how they perform, as in are they hot or rolldowns.
Brian.
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Bluesman
21 posts
Mar 09, 2004
1:45 AM
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No it is Black.It is the way the light reflects off of it and what we see that makes it look blue.All spread does is move the color of the tail band (which is black) thruout the body.On the Browns.Yes I have some good Brown Rollers.I have not flew any of the young yet but the Parents are 25 to 30 footers.Not HOT just good rollers.I am still working with the browns and hope to fly several of the offspring this year to see how they reproduce.David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Mar 09, 2004 1:50 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
39 posts
Mar 09, 2004
1:46 PM
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Dave, I'll have to respectfully disagree with you. Are you saying that wild type blue is black? Black is spread blue and blue is blue. Spread is a modifier. If you call a blue pigeon a black, you will confuse many who might not understand colors. Just my opinion.
As for the browns, I am curious of where you came about the color? I have heard and read that there were browns in some of the original Birminhams, but have often wondered if they were just being mislabled like calling a spread ash red a lavender or a smokey and dirty factored spread ash red a dun. Are your brown babies born with very short down or none at all? It would be interesting to hear your observations of your browns as you work them along. I have always wondered if they would be a little weaker in some families like Recessive Reds or dilute are.
Brian.
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Bluesman
23 posts
Mar 09, 2004
3:07 PM
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Genetically there is no Blue pigment in pigeons.We call them Blue but it is just the way we see what light is reflecting to us.So as not to confuse anyone we will call them Blue/Black.Original Browns came from James Turner.Time will tell.I do know that sunlight will fade the color on the browns.David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Mar 09, 2004 3:28 PM
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Mar 09, 2004
7:21 PM
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Roller Bob,I appreciate your last post to me and your right,I need to think about some of these posts more before I fire them off as I can be hard headed less than tactful,as for whether myself and you would get along,of course we would,theres very few people that I don't get along with and I'm sure the same holds true with you,Good luck to you also!
PS about the trailer remark,all I can say is "that was a GOOD one" LOL LOL LOL
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rollerpigeon1963
5 posts
Mar 14, 2004
6:16 AM
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Hey Scott,
I see you are as well liked in here as you are in the NBRC chatroom! LOL LOL Just joking. Hey if you get a chance take your handy dandy camera out to the loft and get a snap shot of that rec red hen.
Now for another subject, has the color wheel changed on rollers all of a sudden? I have always read that there is three basic colors of the roller pigeons. Blue, Ash red and Brown. And the ones that has been telling me this is college professors. I have never heard of black being a common color factor. Only when your talking spread. I don't want to get into a fight about any of this. But when did they come up with black being the primary color. Has this been around long?
I have heard of the funny colors like tiger grizzle and Andalusions with white bars. Blue and red lace. Classic almonds, qualmond, you name it I have heard basically all of it.
Because if this is the case. This is more serious than all the color factors combined. This could possibly change the way we see rollers all together. Does anyone have the site or where I can get this information from. I would like to read it myself and see who did all the studing. And how did this come about. I would believe this would be some great reading.
Well better get off of here before the rocks get thrown LOL LOL.
Thanks Brian Middaugh
NBRC website
nbrconline.com
Birds of a feather loft
http://rollerpigeon1963.tripod.com
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mother lode lofts
Guest
Mar 14, 2004
8:23 AM
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Brian if you read between the line's you can see the love there LOL,on that Rec. Red hen,I told "you" that drunken circus clown got all teary eyed on me so I gave it to him to cheer him up,man you shoulda seen the look on his face afterwards as he rode off on that shetland pony
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Swamp Fox
Guest
Mar 14, 2004
9:22 AM
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Personally I like Mother Lode Loft's comments. It keeps the site interesting. It would sometimes get quite boring without them. We have enough other responders that, together, all questions get answered. I am new to the site and appreciate it very much. I have raised and flown performing rollers off and on since I was about 12 years old. (I am now 56) I lived through the dual purpose era and went the way of the show roller. (I love both birds). Because of business requirements, I had to get rid of my birds in 1996. I am going to get started again as soon as I get the loft ready. I live in Georgia. Is there someone relatively close by who could help me get started with some good breeders? (performance) Appreciate your help on this. By the way, what does LOL mean?
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rollerpigeon1963
7 posts
Mar 14, 2004
10:16 AM
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Swamp Fox,
LOL = Laughing Out Loud
Scott,
You let that circus jockey off that easy? Man talking about a sucker! just have to call you dum-dum LOL LOL. Hey talk to you later in the chatroom.
Brian Middaugh
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
44 posts
Mar 14, 2004
8:21 PM
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In reading Frank Mosca's article on the blue topic, he does say that Doc Hollander took it upon himself to call them blue/black instead of blue. The most important words on that page are in the last sentence of the first paragraph "This terminology helps us to remember that when we speak of "blue" pigeons of any pattern, we're actually talking about birds with black pigment." The key word is WITH, not absolute. A black would be spread blue, not blue renamed black because it has black pigment. Just my .02
Brian.
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Anonymous
Guest
Mar 19, 2004
7:14 PM
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The True Birmingham Roller came in many colors, patterns, and modifiers in Pensom's day and the same applies today. There have been colors introduce in recent years that were not common to the True Birmingham's but that is for another topic. Does anyone agree? Disagree?
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Mar 20, 2004
7:24 AM
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Thats pretty much it in a nutshell LOL
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nicksiders
40 posts
Mar 20, 2004
9:10 AM
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Some of the "modern day" colors I believe was introduced from other breeds. I know of a man who introduced an Ice Pigion into the mix for the color and I am sure others have done this as well.
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Mother Lode Lofts
Guest
Mar 20, 2004
1:55 PM
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Yep Nick,again thats pretty much it in a nutshell
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birds in ga
Guest
Apr 02, 2004
4:45 PM
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I am in marietta ga I am looking for some birds around this area can u help me?
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