Mongrel lofts
Guest
Apr 04, 2004
1:54 PM
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Hey guys,
Brown is a color, but it is not a color that exist in the Birmingham roller breed... Anyone flying and breeding brown or khaki, is breeding from rollers crossed on another breed for the color brown.. They are not Birmingham rollers for the record,, in my honest opinion.. Mongrel Lofts
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bluebar
1 post
Oct 18, 2004
5:56 PM
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Hi folks,
Just swung by this site and happened to see this older thread and noted the reference to my article in the latter postings.
Actually, all of you are correct. Doc Hollander thumped my head often enough about this. Let's get the terminology straight. When we speak of red, black, brown - we are discussing PIGMENTS that are in the pigeon.
http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/basicggenetics.html
So far as we have yet discovered, those are the only three that pigeons have. There are various mutations that produce these pigments (especially red) and some of those mutations are dominant while some are recessive.
To answer an earlier question here: red is produced as a mutation from wild type (black pigment). In ash-red, this is a dominant sex linked mutation; in recessive red it's an allelic recessive mutation. The terms dominant and recessive simply indicate how the mutation acts in relation to wild-type when birds are bred.
http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/SEX-LINKAGE.html
Color? There are LOTS of them in pigeons, variously produced by many different mutations and combinations of mutations. Blue bar, dirty blue bar, blue bar white rump, blue bar badge, blue bar bald, etc.
I have absolutely NO intention of getting into the historical colors of Black Country/Birmingham or whatever rollers. It makes no difference to me, personally, at all. I know lots of guys who've bred within the roller family for years who have what many might consider rarer colors, simply because they selected for oddities that were popping up in their line (similar to racing guys who occasionally still pop crested or frilled birds coming through as recessive from the progenitor crosses some 150 years ago -- I also know guys who've done some specific crossing to get whatever they wanted into their roller stock) I've seen many of these rarer colored birds spin well and many others that fly like commies -- of course the same might be said for the not so rare colored rollers I've seen flown.
I understand the reservations some have about birds that may have been crossed at some point in their history. I personally have no problem with that so long as they've also been selected back to the standard, be that flying, show, whatever. I know some don't feel that way, so be it. They're the ones feeding and selecting their own stock just like that guy on line who's got his crested Birmingham family bred down out of the occasional crested pigeon that popped out. I have a buddy and many of his Birminghams look a lot like English style West of Englands with the amount of muff they have, and his birds descend directly from Pensom and Hilton stock.
In any case, best to all of you and keep your birds spinning.
Frank Mosca
Last Edited by bluebar on Oct 18, 2004 6:24 PM
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Mother lode lofts
236 posts
Oct 18, 2004
6:29 PM
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Frank for some the crosses may be acceptable , and for others is isn't,but the main thing is that people are aware of it. It's not like the crossing of other breeds to the Birmingham was ever a big secret and it's been done by some on a large scale within this country since the 80s. How much of this funny stuff do you actualy think mutated within in the breed ? Maybe the prodigy from these crosses might have a little someting to do with all these mutant genes LOL and it's funny that the mutant genes only seem to crop up in "questionable" lofts and not out of the solid lofts. And now the trend seems to be denying the crosses and just call it mutations with a disclaimer that it can't be proven. Well those that have done the crossing have certainly muddied the waters so that it can't be proven one way or another in the lofts that have these mutations popping up.
Scott
P.S. you trouble maker LOL
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Oct 19, 2004 6:17 AM
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J_Star
46 posts
Oct 18, 2004
6:58 PM
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Like Nicksidres said "Well, I still think it is blue, black, brown, red, and dilute...................lol ".
We are not back to this topic again, are we?
Jay
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JUrbon
14 posts
Oct 18, 2004
7:51 PM
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Scotty, I have to say that I have enjoyed most of the posts I have read from you and in fact on this forum you are the only person that I actually look for. Your post are usually informative yet brash. In other words you dont beat around the bush and you are a strait shooter. Most guys that know you know exactly were you stand and especially on the subject of color. Keep em comming Bud I look forward to reading them. Joe
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Mother lode lofts
238 posts
Oct 18, 2004
9:45 PM
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Thanks Joe, It's allways good hearing from you also. Brash ? LOL , this is a old thread that was dragged up and this was back when we had the "show" guys on here before Tony told them to find a new home of their own. They really really liked me LOL, I'll be heading to Baja in a couple of days with fishing rods in hand so hopfully by the time I get back the shit storm from this one will be over LOL.
Scott
P.s. any mutant genes throwing you white bars over there LOL LOL
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Oct 19, 2004 6:20 AM
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bluebar
2 posts
Oct 19, 2004
2:37 PM
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I "absotively and posolutely" agree that any crossing should be acknowledged, that way people can make up their own minds as to what they do or don't want in their own family of birds.
I also know that some of what a lot of folks consider crossing from non-roller stock really isn't. Milky, for example, was found in roller stock back in the 1930's and reduced was also found in roller stock, whether this stock was that now presently known as Birmingham is a bit more moot. Whether others introduced milky from other breeds like Thai Laughers is also a possibiltiy. George Gulla was breeding a lot of reduced birds back in the mid 60's. Some of these may have also come into the breed from Spanish birds like the Catalonian Tumblers which Don Andrews had imported. Other factors were definitely introduced by crossing. Gimpel bronze, for example. I've seen some of Dal Stone's birds and seen the archangels he used to create them. They are now spinning and they are also very very beautiful. The ones I saw in the air at his loft some five years back were not yet of the caliber of spin that I've seen in some of the better Birminghams. I will tell you though I don't believe I've EVER seen a more beautiful bird than his reduced gimpel bronze stuff and if he ever has gotten the roll to increase and tighten, you will soon see them in a lot of lofts.
As for the dominant opal mentioned in the thread above, those may well have been either from crosses of European roller/tumbler stock, many of which have colors that include dom opal as part of the genotype.
Again, I don't care what folks breed, especially in a flying breed. I know others do, but my sine qua non of any performance breed is the performance. Again, that's mine, it's not that of all. I've just never understood why it leads to acrimony between guys in a club. I watch Ken Davis work on perfecting his almond Birminghams and their roll and I've visited my other friends who wouldn't have a "funny colored" bird in their loft. I like them both and admire the skill that goes into their breeding.
I think this whole color question and concern goes back to something I do understand and that's the idea that the color will take over the performance and again there will be a fight over show vs fly and/or so called dual purpose stuff. I've seen it in racers, I've seen it in the rollers, and other breeds. Personally, I have always felt that flying was the ultimate in any pigeon and it should be what's keyed on, but again, that's me.
Frank
Last Edited by bluebar on Oct 19, 2004 2:40 PM
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Mother lode lofts
241 posts
Oct 19, 2004
4:40 PM
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Frank that was an exceptional post on this topic. Personally for me the beauty of the Birmingham has nothing to do with the paint job of any bird either on the perch or in the air. The beauty is in the physical and mental aspects of the bird both of which can be reconized on the perch and in the air, I have never seen the strange paint jobs of adding beauty, to me it's just different and nothing more. And I agree with you that it is up to whoever is paying the feed bill and and they should do what ever it is that gets their cookie. For myself there is no other factor that plays into my birds other than performance, and the fact is the truelly good ones that carry the whole package that only a well bred Birmingham that can last over a year are like digging for diamonds. I can't even imagine handicaping myself in such a way to worry about anything other than performance.
On the mutation thing. I don't know Frank, There are very few lofts out there that I would beleive that a mutation actually occured in if it indeed did. I think that for the most part most so called mutations are actually the result of polluted gene pools from somewhere up the line and many times it just seems to be in the lofts where they allready have funny stuff. This reminds of a story, go ahead and sit down LOL , "I was at a fairly new fliers house one day watching his kits and just basicly having a good visit. Up in one of the kits was a funny colored bird "a lacy dacy looking thing" . So I ask Mike what in the hell is that? as the bird lands in a tree (typical) he says I breed that out of one of the pairs that I got from Jack Meyers. I said bull cocka let me see the pair, so he takes me into an OPEN LOFT and I reconize a couple of birds that I gave him, some birds from Nick Burcher and the pair from Jack, also there are things in there that are not in the families that I just mentioned such as Yellows, White Bars, Almonds, Andelutions just to name a few , walla Frank a mutant out of Jack meyers old # 26 Pensom family LOL " True story Frank and I think if the truth be known about the few mutations that have been "discovered" in the Birmingham over the past couple of decades that in reality stories such as this are behind many of them, exspecially when you put the crossing of other breeds into the Birmingham into the eqaution on such a large scale by some. Shoot Frank I would even venture to say that 98 0/0 of those out there that has these colors in their lofts don't even know that it came from crosses and the other 2 0/0 want to deny it even though they know it. Of coarse we all know that yellow doesn't fall into this catagory but I threw it in as few mainstream lofts have it in their families.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Oct 20, 2004 9:38 AM
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Bill
1 post
Oct 20, 2004
8:06 PM
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I have recently got a video in the HFRF club and it was made from Dorris Pensom and friends. They took old vidio tape and you can see Bills birds early on and Stan Plona and leroy Smith and otherss. They all had many colored birds. I saw very few self black and checkers. They had just about any color you could think of just about. A lot of white on birds. The pictures are in color and They might not have a andelusion reduced ect. But certainly when Bill Pensom said one of the reasons birmingham rollers are so likable besides spinning is the variety of colors they come in. I used to think there was a standard color but now the standard color is what you find spins and as you develop this bird you will end up with many clones if you isolate a gene pool with out bringing anything else in. This is why some have mostly checks and blacks. Those rolled the best and they have a family of them. Others may have some white or grizzles that roll good and end up with many colors spinnging good too. I have many colors now and my blacks and checkers roll the best velocity so I might end up with out as many whites as I have now. Bill
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nicksiders
86 posts
Oct 20, 2004
8:22 PM
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Scott,
I too enjoy what you have to say. You remind me of an old friend (Bob Hord). There are times I don't fully agree with you, but I never fully disagree with you either. You are good at explaining yourself and your ideas as well.
See ya, Nick
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Mother lode lofts
243 posts
Oct 20, 2004
9:54 PM
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Bill you are a 100 0/0 correct. The Birmingham does come with beautiful paint jobs within the breed !!! You follow the Roll within in a loft and where you end up color wise is where you end up. It's not quite that simple but it's along that line. In the later years Pensom states his preferance for the selfs which I assume stems from his 514 line.
Scott
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Mother lode lofts
244 posts
Oct 20, 2004
10:02 PM
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Thanks Nick, I enjoy the interaction that all of us have. Yes at times it gets side ways but it also gets interesting. It would get awfull boring if we all agreed on "everthing" all of the time.
Scott
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JUrbon
18 posts
Oct 22, 2004
8:24 PM
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Scott, reading that post made me think back about 6 years ago. I was at a gentlemans house whom I believe you know over in Lodi. I stopped to visit him while I was in Lodi visiting another friend that lived just down the road from him. I was standing next to his kit boxes watching birds go in all different directions and commenting about all of the strange colored birds and just basically listening to a steady line of BS when a bird landed next to me. Looked like a roller(Body and Type wise that is) but I had never seen this color pattern on any pigeon let alone a roller. I was told that that was an experiment that he was working on and hoped to be able to bring back the roll in a couple generations. The bird turned out to be a mongrel cross between a roller and a pheasant pigeon.Scott that thing was awful looking and to think that some day he could be passing that crap off as a roller just made me sick.
Like you said earlier Scott if you have a perticular trait in your birds that seems to roll better such as the selfs that it only stands to reason that if you were only interested in the spin that you will probably end up with a bunch of selfs.LOL. Maybe that is why I have a whole loft full of blacks. Just a thought. Joe Urbon
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RolyPoly
4 posts
Nov 02, 2004
6:39 PM
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Is there a website which shows the colors and the names of colors of different pigeons? The reason being when we got our first three rollers, we called them a brown and white one, a dark gray one, and a gray and white one. Then a pigeon guy came to see us and gave us what he called a red bar hen. He told us the brown pigeon was a red check, the gray was a blue and the gray and white was a blue check. Now the red check and red bar have had several offspring of a strange all over grayish brown color -- what would that be called? (Sorry, we are so new to this!)
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bluebar
5 posts
Nov 03, 2004
3:26 PM
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You can check out my site that has some pics of various colors and patterns. When I first started the site, I assumed people coming there would have no pigeon knowledge or only minimal knowledge so I tried to make it user friendly. Without seeing it, that "grayish brown" bird is hard to tell but since you say it's out of two ash-reds, they may well be "recessive red" young or dilute blues (silvers). I'd have to see the birds or feathers to give you a real answer.
Pigeon Genetics Site:
http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics
http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/picturesredpigeons.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/picturesbluepigeons.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/picturesbrownpigeons.html
Frank Mosca
Last Edited by bluebar on Nov 03, 2004 3:31 PM
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RolyPoly
5 posts
Nov 04, 2004
4:01 PM
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Awesome site. I've spent awhile looking at everything. The closest I see to our birds' color is the one called sooty red. I think they are too grayish to be recessive red but maybe I'm not judging them right. Only one of the offspring came out differently so far, a red bar with white wings.
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bluebar
6 posts
Nov 04, 2004
6:35 PM
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Again, without seeing the bird in question, it's hard, but the way you're describing them, it could be an ash-red bird heterozygous for recessive red, that often darkens the ash-red to a sort of darker gray -- got any pics you can post somewhere for a more accurate view?
Frank
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RolyPoly
6 posts
Nov 04, 2004
8:45 PM
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Hi, my wife's going to make a page with my pigeons on her website. Here is one of the ones in question. Hope this works:
http://www.geocities.com/mdabw_ba_ma/pigeons.html?1099629814360
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redneckhippie15
66 posts
Nov 09, 2004
4:57 AM
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Care to voice an opinion about the color of this bird?
I call it opal, but I am really clueless as to what it really is.
http://client.webshots.com/photo/207636237/207637866nHuEHb
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Never watch you birds with you mouth open!
redneckhippie*blue dot lofts*
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
321 posts
Nov 09, 2004
12:45 PM
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Looks like an opal blue check Kenny.
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J_Star
172 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:53 PM
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As might as well, let us for sure beat this old horse to death......There is more of them where this came from...Don't wory, just be happy (LOL).
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jan 27, 2005 8:02 PM
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Bluesman
155 posts
Jan 28, 2005
5:09 AM
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Jay.I wish I could post a pic of a Reduced Brown.I would like to hear what everyone would say it was.Even the big names in genetics say that to do so they will usually never hatch or die soon after.I have done it several times and now breeding from them.Don,t everyone get excited.No I have never flew them.They are in individual breeding cages and their parents roll 20 feet or more.I just don,t have enough to gamble a loss yet.But they will go in the air as soon as I do.I have flown their nestmates and they roll so I am confident they will also.If they don,t back to the drawing board.LOL.David
P.S.Bluebar(Frank) where have you been?? We need your genetic input too.
Last Edited by Bluesman on Jan 28, 2005 5:14 AM
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