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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Silvers or "reduced" colors
Silvers or "reduced" colors
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Flying Roller
3 posts
Feb 04, 2004
2:57 PM
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Hello again I have some light colored birds which were refered to as "reduced" by the original owner. When I asked him if that was the same as silver he laughed and said no. These birds are incredible looking and kit not too badly, I just would like to know for sure what these mysterious birds are? You can see them on my little website http://www.angelfire.com/theforce/lapointe.lofts/
Thanks again for making this site available!!
Last Edited by Tony Chavarria on Feb 22, 2004 7:37 AM
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Anonymous
Guest
Feb 17, 2004
2:43 PM
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Hi flying roller,
Geesh I wish you people would use a name. LOL
I see you have a web site by angelfire.
Well to explain reduced lets say an Angel uses a wand taps on a blue check and a black comes out in the offspring.
The angel taps a red check and a Lavender ( silver) comes out in one of the offspring.
This is called spred or reduced.
It is a gene that causes this to happen.
If you want more lavenders(silver) put the silver back on some red checks or I prefer red bars and you will get more.
If you want more blacks put the blacks back on bluechecks or blacks.
You have to have the spred gene present to get the gene to pass on.
In your rollers it had to be present even if you didn't see it.
Later
Steve S.
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PIGEONBOB
4 posts
Feb 18, 2004
10:49 AM
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I am getting some Lavenders in my Baldheads, the color combination is very nice. I like mongrels, they are easy to feed and the hawks don't get them. I just can't imagine putting all that time and effort into my birds, just to throw them out for the hawks and/or have them get blown away in the wind. What kind of dummy would do that? Oh well, to each his own. I like my birds and would never subject them to that, but I have no desire to tell anyone else what they should do. PS--to anyone who messes up their keyboard, handiwipes works wonders.
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Robert A. Faulkner
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Anonymous
Guest
Feb 18, 2004
2:27 PM
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LOL Scott!!
I saw those dark checks in the kit box.
(You got spread Man) LOL
Steve s.
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 18, 2004
5:13 PM
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Robert your a show guy and I'm a fly guy,yours are bred for the pen and mine are bred for the air,we both have completly differant types of birds ,the show Roller has been brought into a breed of it's own and other than twelve tail feathers there is absoulutly no resemblence of the two in type,size, station,nothing,and yes other breeds were bred in for what you have today,not that it matters one iota to me as I could care less about the show Roller,you mention that you care for your birds enough not to be hawked or blown away LOL,don't bother even trying Robert cause I doubt that they could make it off the loft anyway LOL,but nor should they as the show Roller is no longer a sporting breed.
Scott C.
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Anonymous
Guest
Feb 18, 2004
5:26 PM
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Stevie,Stevie,what are you trying to do cause problems LOL,you made me call my buddy whos a color breeding mongralizer and quiz him LOL and he started getting the wrong idea why I wanted to know such things LOL,no spead here but thats not what made me ralph all over my monitor,it was opal to this dominet opal to that,and we get a lace that LOL LOL,THE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER DOES NOT COME IN OPAL,BLUE LACE,PINK LACE,ANDALUTION,WHITE BAR,PINK BAR,ALMOND,TOY STENCEL,ECT. all these party colors came from other breeds being crossed in for it.
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
46 posts
Feb 18, 2004
7:44 PM
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Okay, tell all of us color blind flyers just what colors Birmingham Rollers should come in?
If the colors you suggest are the only colors, then anything else is from a cross, right?
Tony Chavarria
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 18, 2004
8:34 PM
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Tony I didnt make any suggestions on what they come in,only what they don't come in,the Birmingham comes in many beautiful colors all on it's own and whats been brought in with other breeds doesn't enhance the beauty of the Birmingham in any way in my opinion,it only makes it look "different" as it's polluting the breed,it's funny,I talk to people all over outside of this country and they truelly can't believe that in this country that some have and are crossing in other breeds into the Birmingham and useing the guise of "rare color" as far as I know it's only happening in this country,the problem is, that so many people that are trying to pick up birds end up with these mongrals without being told whats behind these birds,I know guys that truelly love playing with this stuff,it's thier passion,hey whatever gets thier cookie,just as long as people know what they are getting into when it comes to these birds.
Scott Campbell
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
48 posts
Feb 18, 2004
8:48 PM
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Whew! Hey Scott, I have some lavendars and I thought you were going to say I have a problem. LOL
All this crossing for color business might make a good article for those new to the hobby. Give me more info...
Tony Chavarria
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PIGEONBOB
5 posts
Feb 19, 2004
5:16 AM
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---Mr.Lode--To refer to your post of the 18th, 5:30. EXACTLY! That was the whole point of my bustin' your chops. You have no right to make fun of anyone for what they raise. I would normally never say anything like that, but you asked for it. I flew rollers for 15 years before I started to raise for show,I've been showing for 25 years after that. I put as much time money and effort into it as you and most others. I have bred some of the top show Baldheads in the country. To have a fellow pigeon breeder just inadvertantly blast what I'm doing is offensive. This talk forum hopefully is for advancing the breed. I'm not sure this can be accomplished by tearing someone down. I have learned in my 50+ years that silence is consent. So I couldn't be silent. I am sure you have great rolling pigeons, thanks to all those before you who kept them pure. I love to see flying rollers, the hawks are so bad I had to quit flying. So I have done what I could because I really like pigeons. I'm not telling you what to do but don't be surprised if you gain criticism when you step on toes.
Robert A. Faulkner
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 19, 2004
7:47 AM
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Robert I'm sorry but I didnt realize that you were busting my chops,I don't remember saying anything negative about Show Rollers at all as I don't think that we are even in the same ranks here ,Robert the Show Roller today is as far away from the performance bird as a Modena ,theres no comparison,the only thing that we have in common is our love for pigeons and that I respect,now there are those in my ranks that do dispise the Show Roller and thier resentment runs deep and from many years ago,I am not one of these as both breeds have for the most part gone thier seperate ways, good luck in the shows Robert.
Scott Campbell
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PIGEONBOB
6 posts
Feb 19, 2004
8:09 AM
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If you didn't realize I was busting your chops, then I did it well. I guess in Ohio "Deleted by Site Moderator" and "some clown polluting the breed" is considered critical. You have "put down" show roller breeders several places already on this forum and now all of sudden you didn't realize it. convenient. I'm not starting a war, simply holding my shield up to the incoming bullets. This will be my last comment on the subject, surely by now you get the idea that it isn't funny or cute. I'm sure you are a good guy and I would probably like you if I met you. Not the point. Thanks for your responses. Bob
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Robert A. Faulkner
Last Edited by Tony Chavarria on Feb 22, 2004 7:40 AM
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 19, 2004
8:49 AM
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Robert,the "Deleted by Site Moderator" all over my monitor remark was directed at the other breeds that are being crossed into the "Birmingham Roller" and using the guise of "rare Color",I think that you have me confused with "mongral lofts" on some of the past posts where the ShowRoller is concerned,Robert I don't even know how to get accross to you that I could'nt give a rats gonad about the "ShowRoller" although I was prety confused on your remark how we "all" should be moving the breed forward,which breed are you refering to ????,anything that you do to the ShowRoller I have no remarks about as I have no interest in them,were talking about a completly animal here buddy,but when it comes to my breed of choice and I see something that in my opinion is out in left field,yea I'll spice things up and give others something to think about,and some won't like it,which is "great" then we debate and eventually we come to a meeting of the heads same as me and old Starfire did,or we can all sit here and tickle each others private parts and get all warm and fuzzy,and nobody learns anything.
Robert I was thinking that you and I could post a picture on this site,one of one of your topshow birds and one of my best performers,that way people can see the difference between a show bird and a performance bird,again Robert,GOoD LUCK in the show pen.
Scott Campbell
Last Edited by Tony Chavarria on Feb 22, 2004 7:53 AM
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Slobberknocker
2 posts
Feb 19, 2004
11:41 AM
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Personally, I think Robert is right and Mother Lode Lofts is totally out of line. Who are you to say that a colored bird cannot roll? Your complete and total offensive, rude, and demeaning attitude has made me decide to not post here again. I was trying to answer the first guy's question about what color the birds were in his pics, and you come along and disrespect both of us. The man never said his birds were top performers, he just wanted to know what color they were. Is that so bad?
Anyway, I was new to this site and that was my first post. Now I know why most people don't post their questions on these types of forums. You are here to ridicule them, not help. Thank you for sucking all the fun right out of this great hobby. Bob
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Anonymous
Guest
Feb 19, 2004
12:47 PM
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Hello Slobber and Bob,
I have been reading this foram also, and I don't see where Scott(Mother Lode Lofts) is out of line.
He is expressing his opinion.
He never said a colored bird can't roll.
He is making a point that to get other colors "Than the original colors" that the Birmingham came from the area in England that people are crossing all kinds ofdifferent breeds pigeons to get the "Pretty Colors".
This will only degrade the original Birminghams and take out the performance aspect of the Performing roller Breed.
I'm glad you guys have your show rollers and have fun showing them.
For the individuals that breed for flying performance and competetion I see how these crossing of breeds pollutes the gene pool of the Birmingham Roller.
After a period of time the new people to the Hobby won't know if they are getting real Birmingham rollers untill they have wasted years of breeding and a mongrel breed shows up in their offspring.
Later
Steve S.
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 19, 2004
4:28 PM
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Tony I don't think that I would want to touch that one with a ten foot pole LOL LOL,I can't think of anything in this sport that gets more heated than this very subject.
Scott Campbell
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 19, 2004
4:42 PM
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Bob you are right I did get out of line with you,I should'nt have done it and I'm sorry that I did,but on the same hand I think that it's important that people (that don't know)know whats behind such birds as they are not a "rare" color,they are a crossbred between a Roller and another breed,thats a fact,ands it's a fact that you guys peddle these birds to the unsuspecting without disclosing that such birds are what they are(check eggbid),as for Robert,I'm still confused on how I insulted him as we don't even raise the same breed,and I don't know the difference between a good ShowRoller and a bad one,my best would be a cull in a show loft,it's up to Tony but a forum for the ShowRoller guys wouldn't be a bad idea here.
Scott Campbell
PS.I hope you stick around
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Flying Roller
9 posts
Feb 20, 2004
6:39 AM
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Hey guys, thanks for taking the time to answer, I'm sorry it created some debate. I'm very new to the hobby (less than 2 years)and want to do things right, I'm a perfectionsit. The birds I have apparently are Pensoms & Plonas (again I say apparently) and they do fly & roll fairly well (still developing). I was just wondering about these light colored birds that's all. Not that I'm a color guy, 90% of my stock are blue bared baldys, I just wanted to know. Often us new guys are taken for a ride and it's hard to know who to trust and how to go about things, so we rely on guys like you to help us through either by starting us off with breeding stock or by sharing sound advice. So as a novice I thank you especialy Stan, Bob & Tony, it's great to get this kind of info, I only hope that one day I can do the same for newbies in the sport!
Terry Lapointe
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PIGEONBOB
7 posts
Feb 20, 2004
9:13 AM
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--Against my better judgement I am responding once more. Your effort(MLode)to apologize hasn't gone unnoticed. "I shouldn't have done it, but"----the "but" cancels any thought previous to it. So in reality, you aren't apologizing. "I think it's important that people(that don't know)know what's behind such birds as they are not a "rare" color, they are a crossbred between a Roller and another breed." So...a crossbred bird cannot be a rare color? That makes no sense scientifically. "That's a fact". In whose book? "And it is a fact that you guys peddle these birds to the unsuspecting without disclosing that such birds are what they are." Hmmmm. A fact can be proven. Have you been to my loft, have you talked with anyone who has birds from me? Is is vague statements like these that got you into hot water to begin with. "As for Robert, I'm still confused on how I insulted him as we don't even raise the same breed, and I don't know the difference between a good Show Roller and a bad one." Is isn't only me you are insulting, it's everyone else in show rollers! If it were just me, I would have not jumped in to begin with. I'm very secure in my desires and goals. If you really need examples, the forum is riddled with them. If you want specifics, go to COLOR AND DISPLAY TOPIC for instance. Motherlode, Feb 5--"you guys are lost pups", Feb 7 "Show rollers has killed the Birmingham roller as a perfomance bird in many areas." This directed to Ron, one of my best friends, and one of the better breeders and the most generous men I have met in 40+ years. Truly, some of my birds come from other breeders who have added other breeds to change the colors, I don't add other breeds, but it's there nonetheless. So "Mongrel birds" is pointing directly to me. Do I need to give more examples?, they are there. Probably not. The mentality you display is typical of someone who has the need to put down others to make themself feel big. Generally one can talk until they are blue in the face to this person and it just won't sink in. Since I don't know you I can only guess from your postings. I really don't need an apology, that isn't the goal at all. I only wish that you realize how you are affecting #1--this forum, #2 others like myself who raise show rollers, who actually have feelings. #3--how this "bully" attitude is grade-school and should have been lef there long ago. "Mature" adults do not communicate like this. I hope this addresses some of your concerns.----
Robert A. Faulkner
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 20, 2004
12:46 PM
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Gee Robert your like a rubber ball LOL,I didn't apoligize I just said that I was sorry that I came off on the post about the mongral colors,but at the same time I pointed out where these colors came from,and the FACT is they come from crossbreeding,as for my post to Ron simpson,he stepped on a performance list a while back and got hammered pretty hard as I said before resentments go deep and way back on the show vrs performance,Robert you may want to ask Ron about the private E-mail that I sent him on 1-28 due to the flack that he was recieving on the performance list,you know Robert I've gone over my posts here to you and I see "NOTHING" out of line here and to be honest with you am baffled over you continueing suggesting that I've hammered on the show guys,I have came to the conclution that you are either over sensitive or you carry the same resentment towards the performance guys as many of my peers have towards the ShowRoller guys,or maybe your just pissed over what you guys did to the ShowRoller heck I don't know what it is with you but whatever it is it's your problem,I stepped into this forum because it said "Breeding and Training the BirmingHam Roller" if it would have mentioned that this was for ShowRollers or for color Roller genetics I would have browsed and moved on (ok I'm fibbing on the genetic one LOL).Robert I have many other places to talk about performance and the Birmingham Roller and I'll just leave this one to you guys. enjoy
Scott Campbell
PS I would still like to see you post a pic of a ShowRoller on this site and put it side by side with a performance bird
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PIGEONBOB
8 posts
Feb 20, 2004
2:04 PM
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---NOT A SENSITIVE GUY, TOO MUCH. JUST PROTECTIVE! DO ME A FAVOR, ASK SOMEONE CLOSE TO YOU IF YOU ALWAYS HAVE THE LAST ANSWER. THANKS.-------
Robert A. Faulkner
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 20, 2004
3:08 PM
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OK I did ask you asked,I asked my wife your question without telling her why, here was here answer "yea you try too but I just ignore it " LOL, now I'll pose that same question to you LOL,Robert I'm sending Tony a picture of my best 03 bird to post on this site,I won't go into details on the bird except that she is a good one,and as I've asked of you,please send a pic of a ShowRoller,Robert I'm asking this not trick you or make fun of the ShowRoller but as a learning guide as there seems to be so many people new to the sport on here,Robert like I said previously when Ron joined the list that comprises all fly guys it got crappy to the point of where many long time members quit the list like a disease had just surficed,most of the resentment stems from the "duel purpose" days,and another list was formed where the number one rule is "flyers only" in other words it created quite a stir to say the least LOL,personally Robert I could care less about the show-performance battles of the past,both are completly different games and has evolved into two completly different birds,do you not agree ?
Scott Campbell
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Mother Lode Lofts
Guest
Feb 20, 2004
8:09 PM
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Boy Spitfire you just keep digging don't you,if you wanted my story why didnt you just ask,yea I started with this family in 1998,prior to that I had Rollers in name only,I had all the Mongral colors and a mismatch of this and that family (was never told that they were crossbreds),early in 98 I had some guys come over and take a look at what I had,thier first response was "you want some advise" I said what,one of them said "Ace you need to kill this shit and let us help you out" and thats exactly what I did and I never looked back,and that gentlemen is why I'm so set against on those people that breed and peddle the mongral crosses,hey it's thier backyard but the fact is most of them(not all) are mostly feather peddlers,now back to 98,I was given the start as far as the family that I am now working and was given a guys B team,but thier was a condition and that was that I had to compete,so I did (three weeks later LOL)and I caught the bug and I started living and breathing Rollers,the club competes 8 flys a year and since then I have flown in every major fly and have qaulified in the World Cup 3 times and the Nationals twice flying in a very competitive region,I placed almost dead middle on two of the finals fly of the World Cup finals and 12 th last year,and in the National finals 4th year before last and 8th this year,also won the California State fly this year flying against those that qaulified for both the World Cup and the Nationals,California is a very stiff State when it comes to competion and is the 3rd largest fly in the nation and it was a good win,the other were so-so flys other than the 4th place that was a decent fly,I have also judged and or travled the WestCoast,B.C Canada the Northwest and the Eastcoast and parts in between both coasts plus Hawaii all in the name of seeing and judging kits of Rollers,if you truelly want to know what you have get out of your own backyard see birds plus fly in the major comps,theres still a lot to see and a lot to learn and it's a journey that I enjoy,and it was all made possible because a couple of guys didn't hold back on telling me the truth of what they saw in my loft.
Spit Fire thats about it,in the "Color" topic you kept asking about my fly record and I gave it to you there,now it's obvious that you been searching hard on info about me,I could have saved you a lot of time as I have nothing to hide nor will I feed this site "Deleted by Site Moderator" about what my birds can do,the beauty of this sport is these days that guys like me and you can go toe to toe in the air under the same judge,I'm sorry Spitfire but I can't find your name in any of the major fly reports where a finals judge has judged your kit,lets hear how you have done in the finals of these major flys,and lets hear where you have been krinking your neck up at kits,now I'm going to ask you this question one more time hero,ARE YOU OR ARENT YOU FLYING THE WORLD CUP,or are you going to just keep "telling" us how great you and your crested birds with are,now lets here your story hero,and if you think that well Iv'e been doing this for ??? years impresses me your wrong.
Scott Campbell
Last Edited by Tony Chavarria on Feb 22, 2004 8:02 AM
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starfire
Guest
Feb 21, 2004
8:59 AM
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Hey Scott.I got you going again.lol.I still see those Q-D markers for your area.1-3 1-4 Just because you get into the finals doesn't mean you have good quality birds.It looks to me that the whole area you compete in has not so hot Quality.George Babarris came in 5th in the world cup,but I wouldn't take his winning team,if he gave them to me, because they are poor quality and have little depth.They bounce off the roofs and the cars in the street.They only have frequency.You said yourself scores mean nothing ,
only the quality of the guys you fly against.I got 60 points in the master flyer awards list.I haven't been flying for 20 years.You got 335? points ,which is good.But dose points mean Quality? I've been flying birds for 50 years.Youve only been flyinging competition, for 5 years?How did you get so smart in that little time?You seemed to have learned everything there is to know about pigeons.
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 21, 2004
10:08 AM
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Spit fire you keep bringing up some quality multipliers from my area,which I'm assuming that you are plowing through all your old bullitens to get the dirt on me,buddy you have to much time on your hands,Stan I've had some 1.5 in major flys that would have been 1.2 in my book,as far as my area yea we are very tight here,a 200 point fly is a humming kit and a 1.3 is a good qaulity team,in fact in my area I don't think that I've seen it at 1.5 or above,but who care's Stan as you'll never here me bragging about my birds as I leave that to the talkers such as yourself as thats all you have is talk,your the one that brought up useing competion as a standard back in the "color" forum and quizing me on what I've done,so I told you,but now you don't want to use that as a standard,why is that Stan? and be sides these birds can make a fool out you quik,or at least mine can although I'm sure that yours won't,Stan I watched that video of that one bird rolling on your site,hmmmmm that one pretty much tells your story LOL,as far as what I know Stan for only been competing for 5 years,just scratching the surface here and yea Stan still learning and I hope that I never quit,but one thing that "do" know Spitfire is whats good and whats not,so when are you going to learn ?
Scott Campbell
PS were getting to much into personal stuff here and I don't think that Tony appreciates it,how about if we just take this private from this point Stan.
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
54 posts
Feb 21, 2004
10:12 AM
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Good Idea Fellas...
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 21, 2004
10:34 AM
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Stan you seem to have a short memory,go back to the "color" topic,you asked me not once but a couple of times about my fly record,so I gave them to you,and like I said "nothing special"it is what it is Stan,and prior to me giving you that you brought up how competition tells the tale,and now you say that it means nothing,then you want to bring up how many years I've been competing likes its some dirty little secret,but Stan if we go by the records that up untill now were so important to you as far as where we are with the caliber of birds my 5 years of competing have been far more productive than your How many years?,you brought it up buddy not me,then you bring up some 1.3 Qaulity multiplier that you've found on me but let me let you in on a little secret,theres some less than that from me out there also LOL,but theres some much better too,and you bring up my master flier points of what 335 vrs your 60 and how that it means nothing,your right Stan WHO CARES ? Stan my only question to you is, are you a STALKER LOL.
Scott Campbell
PS havnt we had enough fun here
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nicksiders
19 posts
Feb 21, 2004
1:39 PM
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Hey Guys,
None of us are as good as we think we are nor are we as bad as others may think we are. Neither one of you guys should go away, just be a little more tolerant of each others opinions.
I get a little good from the both of you and I agree with some of the points each of you have.
Please disagree, but you don't have to prove you are right. Tell us why you disagree and please leave the personal assualts at your breakfast table
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Stan Arnold
Guest
Feb 21, 2004
3:01 PM
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Hey Scott.
Did I say that that one bird video was my bird? Well it isn't. If you look at the circle at the end of the tape you will see that it came fom France.lol Wrong again. I didn't see you mention my six bird video.How come? Thats a quality break for everyone to see.You can see the depth-Theres a lot of sky between them.Well now that you admit that the quality in your area is no hell I'll pack up my tent and say adeau.
If you dont like the quality marks on the W.F. sheet on my website you better take it up with Harold Ryan.1.5 1.6 is better than 1.3 1.4 any day lol.I'll stop yanking your chain now and give you a rest.Have fun in the flys.Best of luck.I'll just post a few more Starfire pictures on my site.
By the way ,I can trace every bird I have back to 1968.Starfires included, in my records.
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skykutta
1 post
Feb 21, 2004
3:24 PM
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In any discussion In regard to the show roller,,Or Color Roller,one has to ask himself this question,,Am I man enough to admit that I am (1). Poluting the true performance roller In what I do,,Everything that I say and do is an excuse as I destroy the breed,, and that I must have to be defensive In what I say because I am basicly a didler,All the colors that have been talked about,, Opals,, White bars,,lace wings,, barless,,Are all recent colors and markings,,These birds did not exist in the 50s,, The show roller Is no longer considered to be a true performance roller,, That goes without question, Show roller fanciers would not be able to compete In the show arena If the birds they possesed had not been crossed at some point In time,,I have wittnesed show roller fanciers yank out the pedigree on this trash,,
Silvey,, Pensom,, But they neglect to show the Introduction of the modena,, and other big necked,, big chested crosses that had been injected Into the bloodline,,,, anyone who competes In a show roller class,, Is basicly living a lie,, If you cross a horse with a donkey you have neither a horse or a donkey,, You now have a hordonk,,So to end any disagreements about what you are doing,, all you have to do Is change the name from show roller to The Birpingham Robblers,,Then there would be no arguments,, the color breeders could call themselves,,pwitty wittle birdie fanciers,,i have nothing against any of these destroyers of the performance roller pigeon,, Except to say,, Shame on you,, And stop calling yourself rollers fanciers,, JT
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George H Wallace
Guest
Feb 21, 2004
4:18 PM
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I am relatively new at rollers and a first time visitor to this site. The Scott Campbell diatribe is almost enough to chase me away. If this is what roller competition is all about, I will never become involved.
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Bluesman
1 post
Feb 22, 2004
6:20 AM
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I also have had some bad experiences on some other genetic sites.Myself I read everything I can about rollers and try to use whatever works for me.Some may call my rollers MONGRELS but I feed them and they are what I like.I have just about every color & factor in my birds.If I had to pick one color or factor as being the best it would be a hard job.I don,t care what color or factor a bird is as long as it rolls a 10 foot min.I am happy.Some say there is no roller that can roll 75 feet.I have them in several colors.Tight,Fast,& Good control.Mongrel they may be.I guess you could call the Birmigham Roller a Mongrel too.It developed from something before it.Even Bill Pensom in his later years was starting to change his mind on some things.Time changes and someone will always be making changes.Back in the 40s & 50s we were raised on kerosene lamps and outdoor plumbing.Thank God for electricity & indoor plumbing.By the way I also have a Pensom bloodline dating back to the late 60s.Myself I like the newer models.No I don,t compete and never will.Don,t have to prove anything except to myself.When I got back into rollers again I could not believe the changes that have occured in the past 40 years.We now have a choice to breed from and I for one am enjoying my PERFORMING ROLLERS.This is a great site and I hope it can continue going.
David Strait
Mountain View Lofts
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skykutta
2 posts
Feb 22, 2004
9:02 AM
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Hey Dave,,
I have to concede In that one, I kinda agree with you,, I mean,, I have an open mind about things,, The roller was developed from Russian crack tumblers and the common tumbler,, in all the articles I have read and pictures I have seen,, The birds were mostly marked birds,, Saddles,, badges, spangled and the like,,and Im sure the oriental Is In the bloodline somewhere,, and of course the spin,, I beleive that the spin can only be pushed so far before the bird can no longer function,, Im saying how fast can a bird spin and for how long without doing damage to body,,and brain,If we look at the spectrom,,The scale,, It ranges from parlor rollers to rollers that wont even tumble,, so we seek that happy medium,, As far as crossing different breeds Into the roller ,, im sceptical,, But I have experienced mutation within my own family of rollers In regard to color,, producing what some call Milky,, I tend to call it a powder blue,, But even in the mutation they still show they are badged,,,I have brought these mutants to a few of the shows and asked color experts what I was dealling with,, and they told me It was 2 birds carrying dilute,, and it showed up in the youngsters,,as far as the quality of the spin,, they are excelant,,this year will be the first that I will pair up the mutants,, I need to know If they will produce the same,, because they are dilute does not mean they carry dilute,, and may not produce what they are,, JT
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 22, 2004
11:37 AM
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JT good post,as far as the roll is concerned they a good one can only do so much before they self destruct either mentaly or physicaly,now to turn this subject around on a much less controversal side and plus it's only fair,I'll throw out a couple of names,thats Jay Yandle and Randy Gibson,Jay and Randy both breed for "color and both have obviously worked hard at improving the "color" roller,Jay this year won the NBRC 11 bird fly,for those that don't know there is a 20 bird fly and a 11 bird fly,the twenty is scored by breaks of 5 or more birds going at the same time more than 10' with the proper qaulity,the 11 bird is scored by individual birds rolling with the proper qaulity and depth,Jay smoked this fly,as for Randy,Randy stayed with me a few days while judging the Calif. State fly,and the reason that he was judging was due to winning kit prior to this year,I might note that he is also a very accomplished flier out of S Calif.,
Scott Campbell
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Show Roller
Guest
Feb 23, 2004
8:34 AM
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I have not been on the the all roller talk for awhile. After going back and reading what Bob was saying about the
Show Roller it made me want to jump back on. I got off because I was only reading comments between a few people that wanted to argue about a lot of stuff that did not make a lot of since. As President of the URCA, I have formed a new committee to work with the NPA to get the
Show Roller reconized as its own breed. In a convversation
with Harry Zelasko, President of the Canadian Roller Club,
by E-Mail the other day,he explained they did this years ago.He also indicated he was suprised that the United States has taken so long to follow suit. I belive he said they did this back in 1963. If we would have done this back
then also, I summit to you and every one else, we may
have avoided the dual purpose era. We also may have avoided all the criticism the Show Roller people have
been subjected to for years.Some of the fly guys that
had both breeds may have kept them.Scott you are right about a lot of your comments, especially the tongue
lashing I took on Earl's Roller List. however, you
would be surprise at all the private E-Mails I receved
from flying roller breeders that was very much in agreement with me on the comments I was responding back to some of the guys on. You would also be suprised at the number of guys that said they had Show Rollers and liked them,but their buddies made fun of them.I helped host the
Fly In July last year.My house was one of the guest stops. All of the fly guys that stopped did not fall in love with
my birds,but they all kept an open mind and a lot of them made a return trip to talk one on one with me.I think maybe after our Breed is recognized we all can keep an open mind.After all the people that got killed in the Civil
War because of different beliefs, they all leaned to get along.They lost a lot more than we ever will!!!!!
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 23, 2004
4:24 PM
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Nice post Ron,as far as getting the "Show Roller" classified as a new breed "thats great" and it's well needed as it has evolved into a breed of it's own,I think that theres allways going to be people who's interest differs,some are going to prefer the flying breeds as some will enjoy the show Breeds,I was in Louville a few years ago at the show,man what a blast,I love looking at all of the showbreeds,I think that our first love is the pigeon it's self,then we dicide which road suits us.
Scott Camobell
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Show Roller
Guest
Feb 23, 2004
5:49 PM
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Thanks Scott for the nice complement about getting the Show
Roller recognized.I just read an article last night about a
new roller that is about to make its Debut in the United
States. It is called the Persian Roller. If some of the fly
guys hate the looks of our Show Roller,wait till they see a
picture of the Persian Roller.This bird was Best Of Breed
and "Superior" what ever that means at the NPA Grand National in Hartford,CT. 2003.It is a popular breed in Germany and is starting to be imported to United States.
Hopefully someone will post a picture of one. I hope they don't ( new breed) have to go through what the Show Roller guys had to go through. The pigeon fancy needs all the help
they can get help to keep peoples interest alive in any breed of pigeon they choose to breed and keep. RON
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 23, 2004
6:20 PM
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Ron I doubt that the new breed will raise an eyebrow of any flyers as it's a breed of it's own,it's the same with the "ShowRoller" it has been changed enough to the point where it is a breed of it's own and once it is classified of such I think that the slate will be cleaned,Ron how many serious "ShowRoller competitors are there across this country,is it a breed thats goes beyond N. America now or mainly in the U.S.? and is the breed Standard the same ?.
Scott Campbell
PS how bout letting Tony post a pic.
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Show Roller
Guest
Feb 23, 2004
7:36 PM
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Scott I sent a picture to Tony so he could post it. It looks more like a Oriental Roller more than a Show Roller. You never know it might catch on in the Show Area. You are right it will never rise an eyebrow in the Flying Roller world. RON
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Show Roller
Guest
Feb 24, 2004
6:30 AM
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Scott,
Tony has posted a picture of the Persian Roller from Germany on his home page for all the roller people to look at. Tony, thanks for doing this. RON
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Mr. Baldhead
1 post
Feb 24, 2004
6:06 PM
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Hello everyone,
I have been reading all the above posts with interest! First I want to tell you I have had rollers only for 38 years. I love all aspects of the rollers. I have won 10 Grand National Champions with my Baldhead show rollers,won several State flies, many y.b.& o.b competitions and 2nd in my region for the world cup. Judged the region for the world cup also. So,by now you can tell I have great interest in both and have absolutely no problem in breeding and keeping them seperate for what they are. It never ceases to amaze me that I don't get sick of one or the other. I have spent 8 years touring on my cycle throughout the midwest visiting flying and show roller fanicers. I have met and made more friends through this wonderful hobby. I have gone through the dual purpose issue, listened to the bickering and watched at time friendships seperate because of this. I am very shameful of some of my own friends who have gotten rather bold and disrespectful to others who have the same love, and that is raising and caring for pigeons. I think we all need to look at ourselves and all the issues around us and start saying and respecting others for the love they have,and that is just plain pigeons. Lets quit putting this wall up and love and enjoy what each of us like, and that is pigeons. If you love flying that is great,and enjoy it,to its fullest. If you love showing,do the same. We all need to stick together, get other pigeon people involved and watch our hobby grow. If we continue to spend all our efforts in seeing who can out do the other in and amongst our selfs we are all going to lose out. We all must say, if that is what that fancier enjoys, let him do that, be happy for him or her,and go ahead and continue to enjoy what you like. Many years ago I barried the hatchet when I had judges not even give a baldhead a 2nd look. That hurt at the time,but things have now changed with persistence and we have a great following in the baldhead circles to date in the show room. I have some great friends who will not let go of the idea of a show roller,for what it is today. Things change around us each and every day in life and we must accept the majority of things out there.I will never take sides, whether it is a show roller discussion or a flying roller one. I love them both dearly for what they are and I think it is high time that most other adults act like adults and appreciate and be happy for one another. Let us all love all the pigeons and try to help all breeds become more popular. That should be our goal, not wasting time trying to let someone else know you don't approve of what he or she is doing. Thanks a bunch-and happy breeding to all!
Wm Murkley Jr.
Last Edited by Mr. Baldhead on Feb 24, 2004 6:07 PM
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nicksiders
22 posts
Feb 24, 2004
8:46 PM
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Does that Persian Roller roll? Looks kind a funky. Let's start a new club....LOL
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1 post
Feb 24, 2004
11:09 PM
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This is my first time posting on Tony's site. Nick mentioned it on the NBRC site and I thought I'd check it out. Thanks Nick. Interesting string of posts on this topic of color and the like. Like many I have my own opinions and thoughts about genetics. Performing rollers are my #1 focus, but I also am a hardcore show breeder with various other show breeds and with that comes an understanding of genetics to a certain degree. As was described the bird that the guy who originally posted his question is, as one member accurately posted appears to be an Opal blue t-pattern or blue velvet. Reduced would give more of pinkish effect to the shield. If it were a black it would be laced. Dilute is different and to correct one gent who mentioned a mutation in his birds, if you didn't have dilute to start with or a bird carrying dilute, there is a 99.999 percent chance it won't just pop up. Not that that can't happen. If you believe you have a dilute, it doesn't carry dilute, it is a dilute. Hen's can't carry any colors other than recessives. So if you have two you think are dilute and mate them together, all you are going to get is dilutes. Could be what you have is a spread ash red bar, which creates a milky looking bird, nearly identical to a true Lavendar. I get them on occasion in my rollers when I mate a red bar to a black (spread blue). I enjoy listening to folks debate about color in rollers, or the percieved value of what is true and what is rare or crossed in. I have several hard core friends who say the very same things that Scott and a few other said in regard to the "original colors of the birmingham roller" and I have yet to get a complete and accurate answer from anyone because non of us were there in the good old days of the Black Country. Pensom whom the roller world praises like the almighty was a fancier of color show pigeons as well as his beloved Birmingham Rollers. I recall reading that one of his favorite spinners was a yellow (dilute). Makes for interesting conversations with the purists who believe it was impossible. I try to put things into perspective and always remember that the Birmingham Roller, who's heritage was probably accurately described in an earlier post, was the sum of many parts. A breed made from a variety of other breeds. The same breeds that also made the Tippler and Tumbler of that same area. What were the colors of those pigeons? What genotypes were hidden from view? Who knows. I surely don't. But what I do know is that all pigeons stem from one color...blue. The tools for those genes were in their somewhere. If that one throws a straw in your yogurt, try understanding if genetically all pigeons started from the natural rock dove blue, then where did ash red (dominant to blue, meaning you have to have one to make more of them) come from? Interesting. By the way Scott, I know of many who share your same opinions about the true hard colors of Birminghams and many who don't, probably fewer actually. You failed to mention something important in noting Yandle's great accomplishment of winning the '03 11-bird fly (quality fly). And that was what the judge noted as the two best birds in the kit...andalusians. I had never heard of you until my very good friend and somewhat of a mentor Randy Gibson came home from your house and said you flew one of the best kit of birds he had seen in a long time. This morning as him and I watched my kit fly he mentioned it again, about the quality of your birds. In other words you've gotten his respect and obviously I listen to what he has to say. I'm sure you are aware that Randy got much of his start from our late friend Doug Brown who bred many "rare" colors of Birminghams. Doug was a very accomplished flyer and Randy took the base of his birds and used them to not only fly great kits, but become a Master Flyer because of them. Included in those kits were andalusians, indigo bars and often a variety of bronze sheild marks and opals expressions. I fly many birds off of Randy's birds and some of the best spinners I have, the one's that really crank are andalusians. I doubt that good ole Pensom had any andalusians in his lofts, but I guarantee you that some of these birds that Turner perfected then passed on to guys throughout the hobby are quite close to as good of spinner as Pensom had in his kits. Doubtfully better, but probably not too much worse. Ask Randy about his andalusians if you haven't already had this conversation with him. They flat out crank! I know because I am flying some of them. Some others in our club still say they are not rollers or they are cross breds because they aren't a blue check, red check, etc. But they have every physical and performing attribute of a great spinner. See the world in black and white and no one would know the difference, especially in the air, for in the end, that is really all that matters for what the roller is bred to do.
Brian.
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Bluesman
6 posts
Feb 25, 2004
4:03 AM
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Brian.You brought up a very interesting name.James Turner.He has probably introduced more colors than anyone I know into the rollers.I heard that it can take 4 years to introduce a new color into a roller and get it to where it is rolling good.James Turner is also a Past president of NBRC.My loft is full of James Turner birds.Between him and good friend Bob Baxter who had to give up rollers because of several neck operations have developed as good a roller as any man could hope to ever own.Yes Baxter competed and won the regional before having to give up rollers.One color or factor you didn't mention was Qualmond.Baxter flew these Qualmonds from Turner before I got them and said they were some of the best rollers he had seen.I will be flying some young from them this year.As for the Indigo/Andalusians What can I say except If you don,t have any you are sure missing out on some good rolling action.I just hope I can continue to keep this family of birds going and not mess something up.I don,t think either man is working with Rollers at this time.
David Strait
Mountain View Lofts
Where Color is a Plus but Roll is a Must
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 25, 2004
9:44 AM
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Brian I enjoyed your postings here,as far as both Randy and Jay Yandle I know them both and have a lot of respect for both of them,the mechanics of these birds go much deeper than what we read here,and we have to remember that the originals started with a nonperforming show breed crossed onto a Birmingham both of which are of complety different dynamics so it has taken a lot work and time for the top Breeders of these birds to bring them where they are today,the Andalutions were brought out of a Homer at least that is my understanding,it is also my understanding that out of the crosses that the Andalutions are the furthest along,the best of these color birds were brought to where they are from guys like Randy having topshelf birds in order to bring them where they are today,they didnt happen just on thier own,I think that once they are so far along that hybred vigor may play in on the better one's when bounced onto one of these topshelf birds also,thats a good thought and one to ask Randy about Brian,I think that some of these guys have put these birds there as far as performance,and the next step is bringing the whole package together on a whole and reproducing the same without using an uncrossed Birmingham to do it,Randy made mention to me that he was only keeping keeping a few pair of the color birds and he was keeping them because they"REPRODUCED" I put that into capitals because thats thats a biggy,color birds that reproduce the same and thats been one of the aurguments is that they can't stand on thier own ,thats says that they are progressing forward leaps and bounds,can you inbreed them into a family yet? I don't know,one thing that we aren't seeing yet is kits of nothing but color birds that can compete yet,I believe that so far what we see is a sprinking of color birds in with the normal as far as the better kits go,Randy would again to be the one to ask on that one as I'm only going by hearsay,I talked to Jay about his 11 bird kit and asked him how well do they work as team,he told me not very well,but you can bet that he'll be working on that aspect of them next,Brian it's been a long road for these guys but they have persisted with it and have brought these birds up to the next level no doubt,Randy spent a few days here and one thing that I really liked about him was his complete honesty surrounding these birds,he's just a no B.S. kind of guy and no doubt a first rate roller man,and thats the truth,one last thing to consider here that may mean nothing to most and that is,once you've changed an established breed such as the "Birmingham Roller" is it still a Birmingham Roller ? or you in fact developing another breed?,just a thought.
Scott Campbell
PS Delute is native to the Birmingham in some familys
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
5 posts
Feb 25, 2004
1:14 PM
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Scott, I agree that when the best of the best is used, the process goes much faster. Some of the colors that were introduced to rollers came from Wests which are essentially the closest cousin to the roller, both made from the same birds just one bred to spin and the other to tumble and fly a long time. Regardless, I don't feel that if you take a Pensom bird and breed it to something else the offspring are then a different breed. A breed must consist of the genotype contributions from three different breeds for it be accepted as a "new breed" and only when consistency in phenotype prevails. First generation crosses are referred to as "F1" and this is where you will get the most hybrid vigor. Kind of like when you cross two families of rollers you got some really good ones by the next generation down aren't as good as their parents were. Either way, depending on which genetics information you have, you can recreate 'pure' in less than ten years. 15/16ths can be achieved in much less time. I'm not defending the practice of crossing in for color, just providing some knowledge I have about it for possibly better understanding. Those andalusians that Randy told you were REPRODUCING, I bred from that pair and the best cock he owns, an andalusian. Nice when you are friends with a guy that lets you use many of his "click" pairs. I raised 17 babies off that pair in the limited time I was allowed to use them and about 6 were andalusian. One of the best birds I stocked was a beautiful andalusian that was an exceptional spinner, her black sisters, one a black bar were just as good, some even faster. Some serious speed behind these birds. Most kitted well, a few didn't for a while but regained themselves before they were a year old. I stocked three of these hens and the one lone brother which is a recessive red. Out of the two sisters I outcrossed to two Smith/Starley brother cocks and produced several andalusians from the one hen that do really well. In fact just this morning I was watching one of them, an andalusian w/f that was ballin' it up good and shooting back to the kit like a rubberband. She'll be moved to the A-team tomorrow. I can see where the purists of the pedigree can stand firm on their viewpoint, but one must always acknowledge that rollers carry the same genes as tipplers, wests and probably a few other tumblers out there since they were all bred from the same pigeons in a time when knowledge of how to do so correctly wasn't a modern convienence. We have a right to stand strong on our beliefs and defend our passions. Sometimes a step back from the battle line will highlight a different perspective. If you are a pedigree breeder, then by all means stick to your guns. But if you a breeder of performance, especially concert performance, then all that matters is what they do above our heads, not what color they are, what color their eyes are, or who their mama and daddy were. Of course, just my two cents. Nice talkin' with ya Scott.
Brian.
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Mother lode lofts,
Guest
Feb 25, 2004
2:56 PM
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Brian,I'm getting the feeling that this can go sideways on us real quick here (again),and it's certainly something that I don't want to get back involved in and I worked very hard at keeping my last one in a positive perspective and it's best not go to any further here on this subject.
I hope that we meet while I'm down in your area this year and you are diffenitly in an area of hard core fliers that will no doubt push you hard where the performance of these birds are concerned,you have some great guys down that way that are as serious as it gets,and you sure can not go wrong with a mentor such as Randy,I was very impressed with him. Good luck in your future flys.
Scott Campbell
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
7 posts
Feb 25, 2004
3:36 PM
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Scott I wasn't trying to take the conversation sideways. Reading through all of the posts I gather the same two-sided debate that we have heard for years and years. Just trying to inject another persons assessment of the topic with a few ideas and understandings that others might not have considered. As you can tell I enjoy the conversations as do yourself. I have never met you and only know what Randy has told me about you, which because of the type of birds you fly and your management skills you have my respect. Randy and I are two of only a few in our club that see and like the same type of roll, so if he says he really digs your birds, then I guarantee you I would be greatly impressed with them regardless of what color they are. By the way, you said you are tight on the Pensom line. I am curious of your percentages of good kitters and those with a solid mindset. I have been working with some of Van Copple's 514 stuff for about four years or so, some of them would be greatgrandchildren to 514 and I hate the percentages of useable kit birds. Without a doubt the best roll quality, but the kitting, mindset and overall "heart" of the birds is less than gratifying. I get some () burners that I would love to fly on comp day, but I can't trust them. Just curious as to what you experience with a similar line of Pensoms. I thought about working some of my stable but less frequent 272 birds into them to see if I can up the percentages. I'd like to hear what you think about it.
Brian.
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Bluesman
7 posts
Feb 25, 2004
3:38 PM
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Scott.I have to agree with you.When do we stop calling our birds Birmingham Rollers.Myself I stopped when I got back into them after being away for 40 years.There is just no proof that my birds came from Birmingham,England.Even if their ancestors came from there the bloodline has been diluted to the point I will not call my birds Birmingham Rollers.I choose to call them Performing Rollers.I know for a fact that they perform.If not they are called CULLS.If someone has proof and can back it up that their rollers came from or descended from Birmingham Rollers then they should call them such.I have researched my background and there is 4 nationalities in my background.This has happened over the past 200 years.My children now have 5 in their background.We do not call ourselves by where we originated from but we call ourselves Americans.As you said this could develop into a long debate but I for one am going to call my rollers Performing Rollers.
David Strait
Mountain View Lofts
Where Color is a Plus But Roll is a Must
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
8 posts
Feb 25, 2004
4:00 PM
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Sorry David, still getting use to this message board style and didn't see your response. The reason I didn't mention Qualmonds is because I don't have any experience with them as far as rollers go. I can say that I have seen many rollers fanciers have called Qualmond, but were genetically only a spread ash red carrying blue which accounted for all of the flecking. I've seen homozygous spread indigos do the same thing on occasion. I'm sure if they were worked as hard as Turner did with his andalusians they will get it on. Good luck. By the way, Tim Decker has several of the old original Andalusians he sent to Doug Brown which came straight from Turner. He's looking for a home for them. Just thought I would mention that to you since it sounds like you are working with his birds.
Brian.
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