Richard A.
10 posts
Jun 20, 2005
7:52 AM
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What is your opinion on kits being able to have extreme velocity as well as frequencity at the same time? Do you believe that there is a line to be drawn?
Will a kit with too much speed be able to maintain real good frequency?
If not, how do you maintain great frequency and bring the velocity down to a lesser level so that the kit doesn't get tired too quickly? would you introduce Grizzle in order to accomplish that?
Richard
Last Edited by Richard A. on Jun 20, 2005 7:56 AM
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DHenderson
4 posts
Jun 20, 2005
9:52 AM
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velocity and frequency can go hand in hand for 20 minutes I would say with no problem. It's just high velocity over 30 foot with frequency that will wear them down.
The problem I have seen is that the judges that see a high velocity short kit don't get scored correctly even with their speed. Im talking 10-15 foot birds that are within the rules to score but dont' get scored so you really have to have birds closer to 20 foot to be judged correctly if they have frequency.
I don't think introducing any color has much to do with this unless your birds are missing something from the ingredients to do what you mention.
just my thoughts on it.
dave
Last Edited by DHenderson on Jun 20, 2005 9:54 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
293 posts
Jun 20, 2005
10:46 AM
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Dave.You said;
Im talking 10-15 foot birds that are within the rules to score but dont' get scored so you really have to have birds closer to 20 foot to be judged correctly if they have frequency.
Why is the judges not scoring birds like this? David
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motherlodelofts
93 posts
Jun 20, 2005
10:50 AM
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If your birds are at 10 ft , they are way to close to not deep enough, 10 ft is "suggested " for scoreable. A good kit will show seperation, then there is no question !!
Just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 20, 2005 10:51 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
294 posts
Jun 20, 2005
1:08 PM
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Scott. So what you are saying is 10 foot is suggested but it is to close to score.So then the judge could decide that he won,t score them untill they start at 15 feet.I see no place in the rules that says the judge can decide what he chooses in depth.What I seen was anything BELOW 10 feet SHOULD not be scored.If this is the case I can see why so many don't compete.David
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
22 posts
Jun 20, 2005
1:38 PM
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David, depth is purely subjective. One man's 10 feet is another's 20 or even another's 5 feet. It is often easier to determine depth when the birds are at a low height. But if they elevate like most kits do, short rolling 10 foot suddenly becomes a strange dividing line. This is even more hard to gauge when the kit is breaking directly overhead above 500 feet up. Time is usually your best reference. Most of us have seen rollers roll at a real low height and compared it to some object in the near vacinity which we know to be of a certain height. The good old basis of 10 feet equals one second is about as accurate as any judge could use.
I had the opportunity to judge an eleven bird fly comp this past weekend and obviously depth plays a major role in whether a bird is scoreable or not. If the kit is flying low or off to the side, you can get a good feel for what the "general" depth most likely is. It's when the kits would elevate up pretty high that time in the roll becomes the basis for the depth part of the analysis. We have absolutely no way to measure for certain how far a bird rolls, but we can measure it in time and get pretty close. If a flyer is only flying birds that all roll for one second only, there is a good chance that some of the breaks might not be scored. The fancier can get disgruntled if he so chooses, but often it is the fact that either he is dissatisfied with his bird's performance, or he is over zealous in wanting more than what his birds are worth. The judge simply is there to call it as he sees it.
On speed vs. frequency I believe you can have a good kit of solid, fast spinners that can jam up a score with 20 or more breaks. Chances are they all won't be of phenomenal depth, but solid rollers capable of good speed can have a great work rate if prepped properly. Often the top kits have both frequency and speed and that kit is simply prepped to perfection on that particular day. You can usually bet you won't see that same performance any day you show up at the guy's house to watch his birds.
Brian.
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motherlodelofts
96 posts
Jun 20, 2005
2:18 PM
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David, all that I know use the 10 ' for min scoreable including myself, The problem with 10' birds is was it 7' or 10' ?
I beleive that one of the reason that "suggested" was put in was to leave room for birds just in case they roll hard for a duration but drop very little.
These birds are rare ,but just in case it happens they won't be discounted.
Those that don't want to compete do so because they don't want to or can't for one reason or another,rules have nothing to do with anything and if rules are used as an excuse,well than that is all it is then,an excuse.
Just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 20, 2005 3:41 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
297 posts
Jun 20, 2005
4:35 PM
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Brian & Scott.I always use the 1 second, 2 second method to try and guess my birds roll.I know how hard it is for me to score my kits.LOL.I told someone just this past weekend that probably a judge would score my kits higher than I do.I am good at judging distances but when a lot of action is going on I lose concentration.LOL.I would never want to have to judge someone else's kits.You all that judge deserve more credit than you get.
Maybe if I get to fly this fall I will get to see how a judge works.LOL. By the way it is looking good.Starting to get some interested.David
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Richard A.
12 posts
Jun 20, 2005
5:03 PM
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I do agree that Frequency and extreme velocity can fall apart with a 30 ft kit because they just cant take it. Some do mate their rollers to grizzles and sacrifice some of the speed because of softer feathering that can create better frequency and more depth. The softer feathering makes it harder for the birds to resist the roll, while the tighter feathered ones can resist depending on the feeding program given at the time, but they can also handle the excessive speed. Recessive Colors are also soft feathered and can handle only so much velocity before they start becoming dangerous.
Richard
Last Edited by Richard A. on Jun 20, 2005 5:06 PM
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DHenderson
5 posts
Jun 20, 2005
10:05 PM
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Well like scott says it's a separation issue even if 10 foot is allowable.
Also you have to remember RULE 8, the judge can score them as he feel is adequate in his terms so if a certain judge only wants them 20 or more even though the rule allows for 10 foot to be scored, the judges personal standard over seeds the rules, just that simple. The rules are only a guidline for the judge to use if he wants too, he can select the best team by whatever means he feels fit.
Dave
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
300 posts
Jun 21, 2005
2:18 AM
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Dave.I would think that judge would soon stop being asked to score anyone's kit.LOL. David
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Slobberknocker
11 posts
Jun 21, 2005
5:54 AM
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Richard,
Just asking.....what does Grizzle have to do with performance?
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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Richard A.
16 posts
Jun 21, 2005
6:26 PM
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Grizzles have a softer feathering. They produce whites and whites are frequent and also deep and destined to meet their maker in the not so distant future. Softer feathered birds have more trouble resisting the roll than hard feathered birds, but can be used effectively because of that, as long as they are not allowed to produce too much white. Quite a few people mate to grizzles because of that, remembering that any mating to a grizzle produces all grizzles. I am afraid to breed with too many grizzles. If all of a person's stock were to be crossed to grizzles, they would start producing white colored birds and then the stock starts becomming unstable. I think that they are some of the prettiest of all. I only keep (1) or (2) in my loft. I always try to produce the fastest that I can produce and so I stick with the hard Feathered ones. No matter what way a person goes, it is a daily challenge. We demand so much from these poor birds and they are subject for culling if they don't do the right thing on any given day. I'm glad that we are not handled in that way.
Richard
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