Slobberknocker
51 posts
Jan 28, 2005
7:09 AM
|
I had a very pleasant phone conversation with the NBRC President Eldon Cheney yesterday. Vert nice man and very positive about things.
Anyway, he said the NBRC Fly rules are very different from the WC Fly rules. Also, the two are seperate entities. Now, when you guys get on here and condemn those with colored birds, which rules are you trying to push here?
Also, I know for a fact that Joe Bob Stuka and Jay Yandle fly almost exclusively Turner birds and do quite well with them. Yet you all condemn and badmouth Turner's birds for having color. I have been told by every Roller guy I have spoken with the James Turner is a highly respected Roller guy and has done great things for the breed.
BTW.....I must say right now, THANK YOU to all who are so against the colored birds. I have received so many emails and phone calls over the last day or so that I don't know if I will be able to raise enough birds this year to fill the orders!! I also must keep a kit or two or maybe three back for our local club and competition. But, hey, thanks guys. Your narrow mindedness and condemnation of the Turner colored birds is good for business.
Bob
|
glenn
13 posts
Jan 28, 2005
9:21 AM
|
Then you are raising your birds for Profit, the real method to the madness......Glenn
|
Slobberknocker
56 posts
Jan 28, 2005
9:25 AM
|
Glenn,
Thank you for your tidbit of wisdom. From now on I will post a little (sarcasm) note beside the statements that apply so you will be able to tell.
Bob
PS Glenn....You were so quick to jump on me about raisng the birds for profit yet you have not mentioned Tony who openly admits to his birds being a business to him....?
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Jan 28, 2005 12:14 PM
|
Phantom1
79 posts
Jan 28, 2005
9:25 AM
|
Glenn, I think the point of the message is that people are making up their own minds - as suggested by many here. Nice attempt at a slam to Bob though! Hope you feel enlightened :-)
|
Keith
9 posts
Jan 28, 2005
10:16 AM
|
Both the NBRC and the WCF are “performance” organizations. There is no type definition for a “Performance Roller” it’s all about what they can do, not what they look like. There is only a color issue because some feel that the “color rollers” can’t do what they are supposed to. The NBRC and WCF do not care if your birds are pure Pensom, they don’t care if your birds are purple. It is just a place for you to prove what you “say” your birds can do.
I will be flying in the World Cub this year. Will I win? No, but I will get better every year. The only thing that I will choose my birds by is performance, so I will get better faster than someone who is working for a particular color or pattern.
Keith Maxwell
|
Keith
10 posts
Jan 28, 2005
11:36 AM
|
Eric,
Let me clarify. I don’t care what color the birds are, or for that matter how pure the pedigree. As long as they can do what they are supposed to do. This thread was about the difference in rules for NBRC and WCF .
NBRC Fall Fly rules are:
http://www.nbrconline.com/jpmf.htm
WCF are:
http://www.worldcupfly.com/
They actually read very similar, and have to do with performance not color or type. There is no rule stating that the pedigrees of your birds must be checked before you can fly. Scores speak for themselves.
Keith
|
Steve S.
65 posts
Jan 28, 2005
3:01 PM
|
Keith, \Your correct there is very little difference in the rules.
Tell me what it has to do with anything switching the debate to Performance Rollers?
Performance Rollers can be anything with wings that is entered in a kit in either fly to be scored.
Is this a new direction to get away from the induction of cross bred rollers to justify there existance?
Steve
|
RodB
46 posts
Jan 28, 2005
3:25 PM
|
"Is this a new direction to get away from the induction of cross bred rollers to justify there existance?"
I dont think its to justify thier existance but more a fact that they cannot stop them in the paper tiger wars so they instead of trying to police something that they cannot they chose to let them in where open competition will sort them out soon enough over the course of time .
In the end its all about competition and the fact that over the long haul , the best blood will come out on top and you can take that to the bank .
Rod
|
Slobberknocker
58 posts
Jan 28, 2005
3:25 PM
|
Steve,
After visiting with some NBRC officers and other members, it is clear the they (the NBRC) does not endorse you or anyone else's narrow minded, prejudice ideas about colored Rollers. They say, if you can do it and win a comp with a colored bird, more power to you. They embrace the idea of diversity.
It is also clear that, many upstanding members of the NBRC are forced into apologizing for you and the other minority for your way of thinking. You drive more people away from the breed and sport than you know and others have to scramble to pick up the pieces. Now that many of the top guys in the NBRC will now be monitoring this site, I am sure right will prevail.
You and your little circle of friends have consistently bad mouthed and run down James Turner and others like him who have done more for the breed and hobby than you ever will. I refuse to get sucked into this debate any further. Perhaps now the NBRC will step in to set things straight. I have not joined because of people like you.
Good luck to all of you with your birds this year,
Bob
|
J_Star
178 posts
Jan 28, 2005
3:58 PM
|
Who is the NBRC? It is governed by people who have their own opinions too. So What? The behavior here has been just like kids when they don't get their way, they run to the principle of the school complaining every 5 minutes. Lets leave that organization alone and I am sure they have allot more better thing to do than just peak every once in a while to see what people are yapping about. If you can't convince people about your point view, just work harder at it and become convincing. That requires some facts. Turner was a good man for what he did his breed but once those birds left his loft, they no longer his. That is the problem here is people purchase some good stock birds and ruin them they go back and keep the label that the birds are from so and so. That has always been the line the feather merchant using. They use the original breeder name for that family than theirs to put more merit to their claim. That is what Scott, Joe, Kenny among others that they're trying to convey. Please, refer to your birds as your own just like the rest of us. I know you are proud of your birds and I am happy for you. Just take this debate for whatever it is worth. You just said in another post that it boosted sales for you, here you go, what else do you want. Please leave the NBRC out of our BS. Thanks.
Jay
|
RodB
47 posts
Jan 28, 2005
4:11 PM
|
Bob , I think you are taking things too personal , lots of great information in this forum that is varied , you can believe or not whatever you find suits you and yours and still respect the guy that thinks different , its not about an argument its about learning !
A great man and true living legend once told me that
" Your dog is a mirror reflection of yourself and how hard you can be on yourself "
At the time I didnt realize the power or deep meaning within that , but 30 years latter I do because the hardest thing to do is to question your own mind , in the end there will only be one TRUTH , and in the end you want to be aboard the right boat , this is your life goal , to live that saying forces you to think and analize deeply a great many subjects and fields in the pursuit of your life quest .
The meaning of those words have helped me in all areas of my life , and to question many things as I go through it .
Rod
|
Slobberknocker
59 posts
Jan 28, 2005
4:14 PM
|
Jay,
If you read my next post after the "boosting sales" thing, I said I was being sarcastic. All of my birds are pure Turner stock and I will not rename them as my onw jsut because of where they live.
You think the NBRC has nothing to do with this. What about the fact that they may lose members because a few narrow-minded elitists say people have "mongrels" just because they did not originate from their loft. I think the NBRC would have some say in this.
I asked the questions to them because I wanted to know if my birds were good enough for their club. You need to stay out of this since, so far, it has not concerned you. I will drop the whole thing as of this post but I am sure you or one of your friends will have to have the last word.
Bob
|
J_Star
181 posts
Jan 28, 2005
4:33 PM
|
Bob, I tried to stay out of this for a long time and I will keep out of the debate for the most part. You are taking this too much personally and that is not good. You love your birds as much as the other side. People drop from organizations all the time but many, many others will join. If the NBRC are worried about losing customers, then they are in the business of just making money. We need to keep others out of this debate and be able to see it through with our own facts and passion to this breed. If you keep going back to the NBRC for every little thing, sooner or later they will call you a whiner. By the way, you have a great web site and keep up the good work.
Jay
|
RodB
48 posts
Jan 28, 2005
4:42 PM
|
Bob , your birds are your birds based on Turner blood , even if you bred together a pair from 4 that came direct from him but you selected 2 to be bred , at that very point they are no longer Turner birds but yours , when performance familys are bred and established by one man , his name is only a label or ring on leg , the traits he selects for through his eyes makes the Turner birds what they are .
When you mention a family or strain to a top bird man he dont see the title , his brain instantly sees a performance average based on what he has heard or seen of those birds over his time ,its the performance thats inportant and if you made the selection as to what is bred to what for whatever reason and not Turner , for good or for bad till death do you part , they are your birds based on Turner blood .
Rod
|
J_Star
182 posts
Jan 28, 2005
4:53 PM
|
Rod, Well put. That is what I was trying to say. To me and to all breeders, I think, once the birds are in my loft they are labled with my last name, period. Thanks for the further explanation.
Jay
|
Phantom1
85 posts
Jan 28, 2005
5:14 PM
|
Jay, with all due respect....your response to Bob regarding the NBRC. The opinions expressed on this site are just that. You are not the NBRC. However, you are representative of the NBRC and you should act like it, talk like it, and live like it. Just my opinion on the subject.
|
Steve S.
66 posts
Jan 28, 2005
5:15 PM
|
Bob,
You bring up the NBRC alot and checking the roster and I don't think you are even a member.
It is my opinion you have an agenda to drive a wedge into the hobby and Club to get your colored crossbred mongrels
sold.
No person of the NBRC has to say they are sorry for my comments or beliefs.
And I don't think that is what they would say, I know these men.
I am going to get with The officers , Eldon, Juan, both Bobs, Rick Mee and check your quotes as to what they did say to you and what you tried to run by them and what your trying to run on this list.
And another thing don't come off with saying I was trash talking James Turner the man.
If he is still crossing other breeds into the Birmingham Roller I am trashing his ethics in doing so.
I would tell him the same thing whether he liked it or not.
See Bob the more you rant on the more you are truly exposing yourself.
Steve
|
J_Star
183 posts
Jan 28, 2005
5:23 PM
|
Phantom1, please explain further about your response. I don't understand where you are coming from.
Jay
|
Mother lode lofts
456 posts
Jan 28, 2005
5:35 PM
|
And the rules between the two have what to do anything ? And what do "any" rules of anything have to do with anything ?
Holy cow this gets funner all the time.
Lets see we exspose what is behind such birds so that people don't go into it blind and so that they can make up thier own minds and not get burnt from guys such as this pigeon peddler. Then what does he do ? He tells Tony to pull such posts from the site and threatens him to do so.
That doesn't work so he just uses the same tactics as allways and try to confuse people until that doesn't keep working, so now he and some others drag in people from the national club again trying to confuse people and trying to shut us up. (yea right)and you just had to bother poor ol Eldon and cry on his shoulder didn't you. And just why was the NBRC brought up in the first place by you guys ? And why would a non flying feather merchant call poor old Eldon about this stuff ??? did you threaten him also if he didnt shut us up ? as if this has anything to do with the NBRC Just more of the same trying to hide behind others shirt tails
Ok Bob I try to keep other peoples names out of such things but obviously you will go to any lengths to keep peddling pigeons, so here we go.
As for JoeBob yea I know him and he has stayed in my home and I think that he is a top notch roller man!!!! And yes he flys the Turner birds and no doubt he does so for a reason. JoeBob told me that he "never" breeds for color, But if you knew anything about these birds you would know that guys like Joebob have done what they have done on thier own with thier own hard work. Guys like him get respect because he earned it.
As for you, you are just the opposite of guys like him. you are stricty a feather merchant that feeds on other peoples ignorance, you breed for color and profit and nothing else and then you stoop to any level to exploit the new guys coming into the sport, then when you are exposed your like a rabbit looking for a hole. But then maybe its understandable, there is no other way to hook the suckers if it wasn't for bullshit and something glitery, seeing that you aren't a flier but a just a mere pigeon peddler.
monitor that one.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 30, 2005 5:24 AM
|
BULLFROG
42 posts
Jan 28, 2005
6:13 PM
|
i have posted on this site for a very short period and have always tried to be resectful and keep the issues to birds and there performance. in relation to the last series of posts on this thread i will now change that. first a want all of you to know bob is afriend of mine. the only reason he got back into this battle was because i was asking questions that opened me up for the extrem critisizm i recived. bob became a friend AFTER i bought birds from him. for a man out for profit he make very poor decisions (sarcasm!!) i was refered to bob by a good friend who has seen bobs birds fly in several diffrent kits and was impressed and i spent a couple of weeks looking at these birds and watching them fly prior to contacting bob. i ordered 8 birds from bob and when the totals i figured and he figured including shipping was off he said he would eat some of the shipping. actully a large portion of the shipping was cut from the total. kind of cuts on the profit!! when i recived my birds there were 10. i paid for 8. once again cutting that all so important profit. after i had the birds he has twice called me long distance on his dime not to sell more birds but to talk about the ones i owned!! so either we have to accept that bob is not in it for profit or he is the worst bussiness man on earth. i vote for the former. he has been very helpful to me and my megar begginings in this hobby. he cant council me in the ways of compitition but he is always willing to help with questions i have about the birds i have bought from him or birds i have bought from others as well all on his dime!! thanks for the ear . and thanks bob for the help and friendship. chris
Last Edited by BULLFROG on Jan 28, 2005 6:15 PM
|
Mother lode lofts
457 posts
Jan 28, 2005
6:33 PM
|
What extream criticism did you recieve Chris ???? I don't remember you being criticized at all about anything.
|
BULLFROG
43 posts
Jan 28, 2005
6:36 PM
|
please let me clarify. i was never and have never been directly critisized here. my choice in blood to fly however has. and i may be a little diffrent than others but the things to not bad mouth about me run in this order. my wife ,my kids ,my birds and last but not least my horse! one more clarification. the reason the totals didnt add up was that bob from the get go wasnt chargingme the whole shipping and box cost!! thanks chris
Last Edited by BULLFROG on Jan 28, 2005 6:40 PM
|
Mongrel lofts
66 posts
Jan 28, 2005
6:53 PM
|
Hey Bob,
I truly hope the guys from the NBRC are looking these pages over.. What they will find, Is us talking about rollers being crossed on other breeds and making Mongrels. Fact, I don't care who reads it, or what they think about it.. Cross breeding makes mongrels and changes what ever breed is being crossed..
The next thing they will find, is you rare colored breeders, doing everything you can to drag the NBRC through the mud on this!!! You guys just keep bringing up names.. We talk about cross breeding, being bad for the breed!! You guys talk about the names who do it and the NBRC as a club and involve them.. Go back slobberknocker and see who brings up NBRC and Turner??
No club runs what I do with my birds or what I think about the Birmingham roller being crossed on ice pigeons and sold as Birmingham rollers..
Your going to have to find a little old lady or a baby to hide behind boyz.. This dog isn't hunting!! Mongrel Lofts ( Ken Billiings)
Last Edited by Mongrel lofts on Jan 28, 2005 6:58 PM
|
Bluesman
163 posts
Jan 28, 2005
6:57 PM
|
Steve.I won,t get to deep.I have some emails here you might not want to see posted.David
|
Bluesman
165 posts
Jan 28, 2005
7:03 PM
|
Rod.If the James Turner name should be dropped why is Bill Pensom's name still carried with his birds? David
|
Steve S.
68 posts
Jan 28, 2005
7:10 PM
|
David,
Don't be backward I'm a big boy.
Might even be old enough to be your grandad.
Send them to me at telstar@adelphia.net
If you have em I'd love to read them not just what you say they are saying.
Steve
|
J_Star
186 posts
Jan 28, 2005
7:27 PM
|
Dave, if you allow me, Pensom name is only carried as a strain of rollers just like the fireballs. People refer to them in such a way to convey the origin of the blood. Same as for Turner, Rick Mee, Horner, Billings and what have you. Those people bred the Pensom Family, Fireballs or the Jaconettes but they put their name on the family of birds they raise. And when asked, they tell you of what strain they originated. If you sell or give away any of your birds that has a band on their legs that carry your name or initials, then they are your family of birds that originated from whomever the blood started. Take of example Richard Jaconette, his birds originated from Plona and Smith (the same birds) who got the birds from Pensom and some imports. People refer to them as the Jaconette strain not Pensom's. Hope that will help clarifies it a bit.
Jay
|
Phantom1
86 posts
Jan 28, 2005
7:43 PM
|
Hey everyone! I just had to tell you all something about Bob, since that is the direction this post has gone. I've personally gone and visited Bob on two occasions. He's opened his home to me. He's helped me in more ways that I or anyone can imagine. To label him as a pigeon peddler, well I guess that's better than having something so precious that it's not shared with many new comers, rather a choice few. It's quite possible that the tables could be turned and those with this beef with Bob are just as concerned with him and things he does for the hobby, as you aren't the ones getting the phone calls and emails. For those of you that may visit Bob's site, you'll probably see a lot of different breeds posted at random times. What you don't know is that Bob often helps those in his area to get rid of their birds and doesn't make a dime off the sales. They go back to the breeders of those birds. All questions are directed back to the birds' owners, and Bob takes no part of being the middle man. The birds are what they are, No Sugar Coating There!
Now, the next thing someone will try to slander Bob with is, "Well have can he be a serious Roller Man with so much going on". Simple. They are his love. He's always had Rollers, and always will. The Rollers he has are directly - I mean directly - from James Turner. If those are cross-bred mongrels, so be it. There are many of us that have this family, so there are a lot of Cross-Bred Mongrel Breeders out there - many of which are having a hay day in the NBRC and abroad.
So slap him on the wrist for breeding with a set family directly from a guy that's been perfecting the Roller for 40+ years if it makes you feel better. Honestly, I nor Bob could care less. I too was contacted by a member of the NBRC and we discussed the position of a few members and their points of view and perceptions on things. You know what...it's okay!!! Have them! I'll embrace them and you. This doesn't need to go any further than it already has. All I can say is, you give respect, you get respect. That's why Bob has so many people in his corner. He helps, not hinders the newcomer or the old-timer. If it's a business to him - which it's not - it's all about referals I think. I don't think there'd be any of us that could possibly top the number of people he's helped in this hobby.
|
Bluesman
167 posts
Jan 28, 2005
8:31 PM
|
Jay.That is exactly what we are doing.Referring to them as the Turner Strain.David
|
RodB
49 posts
Jan 29, 2005
1:54 AM
|
Rod.If the James Turner name should be dropped why is Bill Pensom's name still carried with his birds? David
Dave , the top competition guys wont talk like that , they will call them thier family and if asked what they are based on will then say Pensoms or whatever .
They compete and stand by thier own merits and name ,Dave they did all the work in the birds they feed and fly the man before them just layed thier foundation , the only guys I have seen that use the name of a famous breeder first and foremost is somebody who has done nothing themselves .
Dave you got to get your brain around performance , that is what the Birmingham Roller is all about ,to breed quality you got to have quality , there is an old saying that you carnt make a silk purse out of a pigs ear , names on paper dont mean jack if you dont know the traits and performance level of the individual itself .
Selection is everything the best breeders have always been the best selectors and to have the birds show you the true quality of thier blood they must be prepared right,its imperative ! mentally and physicly , if you let them down here they will let you down in the breeding loft .
Many a champion has been ruined by an idiot .
Dave its all about pure performance , this bird is pure performance ! and its all just to easy to set a price and say I have Pensom birds for sale .
Rod
Last Edited by RodB on Jan 29, 2005 2:07 AM
|
Phantom1
88 posts
Jan 29, 2005
8:24 AM
|
Rod - you make some good points first and foremost. And I agree with some things you said. But you're trying to push the "pigeon peddler" thing under your breath. How many birds have you passed along to another fancier, un-flown and/or un-proven, based on what the parents or the siblings have done. I suppose it's just as easy to put a price on those birds, regardless of a name. We should all ask ourselves these questions. It presents a pretty gray area in what we do to help the hobby. Maybe we shouldn't get rid of bird, give, sale or trade, unless we have proven the bird in the air. Better yet, have it judged on its own merit by a certified judge.
|
Mother lode lofts
458 posts
Jan 29, 2005
9:37 AM
|
Rod I agree , Once you flying, managing and selecting you change the dynamics of what you start with to at the very least a small degree, How you manage the birds and what come's to the top can vary from loft to loft flying the same family. In other words I know a guy that flys the same birds as my own, he is very hard on his birds from squekers on up. I think that he would roll down many of my best in my A-team and I think that many of his best would be stiffs in my team.
It is like when you start out with a family of birds, what you are looking for is something to kick the ball from with what is producing, once you find that then you can run with it. You are not going to start with producing birds in any numbers, you gotta find them.
Few fliers I know want thier names attached to birds in others lofts as it doesn't fully represent thier birds. In other words if you screw em up they are yours and only yours LOL of coarse if you are doing good with them then that train of thought can change with some.
As for buying and breeding out of unflown birds, as long as it is a tightly bred family from a proven flier who's sole agenda is performance then I would do it if I had to. These type of lofts are few and in betweeen.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 29, 2005 9:44 AM
|
rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
193 posts
Jan 29, 2005
10:28 AM
|
My view is the supposed "ethics" of selling or even giving pigeons away is irrelevant.
The question is: is that which is being sold or given away demonstrating quality or from quality stock birds? If so then that is all that is important.
I am a capitalist in that if I or someone else can provide a quality product the market will demand it, then I or someone else will supply it.
Friendly sarcasm here:
There was once a world view a few years back that basically said "to each according to his need".
So...why don't we put a tax on breeders of quality BR, say we take 30 to 40 percent of what they breed each year and give it to those unfortunate persons so that everyone can have some good ones and dump on evil capitalists so no one can sell them as it is so repugnant to do so. UGH!
Hey Wait A Minute! I "need" a backyard pool as I can't afford to buy one! Does anyone here own a pool business that doesn't mind this extra "needs" tax and will install one for me at no charge? I promise I will take really really good care of it!! LOL LOL
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
Bluesman
168 posts
Jan 29, 2005
10:35 AM
|
First.I have not earned the right to attach my name to this bloodline of birds.James Turner created this family.He spent 45 years doing this.No matter what I do as long as I keep the family pure they are James Turner Bloodline.
However I have crossed some George Mason bloodline with James Turner bloodline.Now I can attach my name to these birds.I am creating another bloodline.David
|
Mother lode lofts
459 posts
Jan 29, 2005
10:43 AM
|
Tony you are 100 0/0 correct, but If you have the wrong person installing that pool though you could end up with nothing but a mudhole in the backyard LOL . On another note, that little hen that you sent Paul is a sweatheart and the type of bird that catches your eye fast as for having a bird with the goods , man if she's got the motor and produces such he has something there !!!!!!
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 29, 2005 10:46 AM
|
RodB
51 posts
Jan 29, 2005
2:52 PM
|
Rod - you make some good points first and foremost. And I agree with some things you said. But you're trying to push the "pigeon peddler" thing under your breath. How many birds have you passed along to another fancier, un-flown and/or un-proven, based on what the parents or the siblings have done. I suppose it's just as easy to put a price on those birds, regardless of a name.> Phantom
Im not trying to push the peddler thing but I can see how my feelings about peddlers can come through my writing , its an area that can be very touchy as its a big bad brush that a lot of people can paint someone with unfairly, lots of people attribute just the point of selling as being a peddler and thats not accurate to just roll off the cuff, but I am trying to point out some of thier tatics .
Because a guy sells or deals in some stock does not mean he is a peddler it all depends on the way the stock is represented and presented to you that earns the title , when its boiled down its really about honesty , if you sell with honesty and integrity you cannot be a peddler , its not about just selling its about the method .
To me a peddler will in most case,s have many of these signs .
Sells lots of stock , lots of them .
He runs advertising for stock in public newspapers .
He will talk your ears of about the deeds of his stocks ancesters but has very few deeds of his own to speak of .
He will have the blood of a number of strains or familys .
He will have stock for sale at most all times .
With performance breeds most peddlers dont compete .
In performance breeds , there are many smoke and mirrors put up for the novice to digest and sift through in his learning and he will never stop analizing information for as long as he pursues performance , my only intention in my posts is get people to think and to question .
I have learned in my time that the purist and old timers know and understand what the novice is about , he was one himself at sometime , but the movice has very little understanding of the purist and old pro , he can hear the words but he dont get the meaning , its like an apprentiship or learning a trade , its all so easy to see once you get through it and you know the trade .
Rod
|
Bluesman
175 posts
Jan 29, 2005
3:05 PM
|
Rod.Another side to look at;Some of us old timers are set in our ways.Sometimes we only learned one way.Sometimes we can,t accept when someone younger/older comes along with something better.Sometimes we won,t keep an open mind.Sometimes we hate change.Sometimes we don,t have the knowledge.Sometimes we can't see the Forest for the Trees.Sometimes it's our way or the highway.LOL. David
|
