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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
To All Breeders Possessing Color Modifiers
To All Breeders Possessing Color Modifiers
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Cliff
40 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:08 PM
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David, Bob, Eric, Cory, and to all novice breeders and competitors; The last couple of days, I have spent several hours on the phone talking with members of the NBRC Executive Committee trying to get to the bottom of the recent "color/pedigree " debate and the harsh attitude of bigotry, criticism, and disrespect displayed by a few individuals posting on this site to further their "purist" agenda. I suggest that you all do the same and I am happy to provide you with names if you contact me by phone. It certainly put a lot of things into proper perspective for me. I was remeinded that this debate has been raging for years. Few in the organization seem to fully comprehend the antagonistic attitude demonstrated by these guys, but this same sort of thing has, indeed, cost the hobby many good men who grew tired of the BS, the closed minds, the bigotry, and the criticism from a very vocal minority. It is the same sort of thing that prompted Bill Pensom to, also, leave the organization of his day. I was reminded that these types of individuals have always been around; tht today's group is basically jealous of the FACT that birds with color modifiers are equal to, or better than, pedigreed birds in frequency, quality, depth, style and velocity. (There were and are Fireball/Pensom arguments, Whittingham/Pensom debates and the list goes on). Some men seem to have nowhere to turn but to negativity in order to turn their opposition away from the sport, to further their own agenda within the sport and with unsuspecting newcomers. I was reminded that these guys are, BY FAR, in the minority of the hobby; that the vast majority of roller breeders and competitors treat others with respect; have open minds, and recognize the facts about the performance of the birds they see that happen to have color modifying genes. (More guys are learning about genetics than ever before in the history of the hobby.)But for some reason, this has never been and probably will never be accepted by those few individuals, no matter what evidence is presented, no matter what competitions are won, and no matter how long it is debated. It is, basically, an exercise in frustration and futility, especially to debate it on the internet. I was urged to focus on the great fun of our sport and of these tremendous birds; to focus on the comraderie with the real gentlemen that comprise the majority of the sport; to watch and learn from the experience of the masters, and to be open to new ideas and new possibilities; and most of all to recognize that the genetic make-up of rollers has always been, as it is today, and will be tomorrow, in a state of flux. Rather than picking any one point in time to hang one's "roller career" on, with any particular strain or family of birds, or their genetic make-up as the best or the only "true roller"; accept the genetic variability, focus on the PERFORMANCE of the birds, and ignore the critics. That is, I believe, the best advice that I have ever gotten from anyone in this sport. And it is the best advice that I can pass along to anyone else in the sport who has been as puzzled and as frustrated by the attitudes we have witnessed. And so I lay it to rest. Stick a fork in me guys. I'm done. Scott, Ken, Steve, Alan (and any others I have missed), I guess we can agree only that we disagree. You have not swayed my opinion and I have not swayed yours. I hope to meet you all under a kit of birds one day looking upward and blown away by the awesome performance we see. Be they "pedigrees" or "birds of color", and be they mine or be they yours, I will shake your hand. Yours in the Sport, Cliff
Last Edited by Cliff on Jan 27, 2005 7:20 PM
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Mother lode lofts
445 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:48 PM
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OH NO NOT THE EXECUTIVE COMMITEE LOL LOL Let me get this straight Cliff. You take a bird and cross it to another breed and pull another color out, then you keep crossing it back to try and make a roller out of it again. let me get this straight Cliff not only as good but "better" You gotta expain that one to us Cliff. Ok Cliff now forget even crossing for color but breeding where color is a consideration and tell me how that works and makes them better. Cliff whoever you talked to you tell them that Scott Campbell said they are blowing smoke up your ass. If they indeed fed you this nonsence
And the guys (that be us) That want to make sure that people entering the sport know the difference are now ignorant narrow minded bigots that are "frustrated" because these are now better and we are getting our asses waxed. While you are at it ask them what color the sky is in thier little world
Hey don't be pissed off at us be pissed off at the guys that are feeding you this line of shit. If they were doing you any favors they would be up front with you and tell you that you are starting out with an uphill battle as far as these birds go.
All we was exsposed what was behind those birds, and it sure took a while to get that truth out hmmmm wonder why. And now people are able to make up thier own minds Cliff. yea thats some agenda buddy (wasn't that my word earlier LOL), So tell us this Cliff, when you bought those birds did they tell you the orgins behind them ? are you mad at us because you now know ? or because we brought up what is behind such birds and you don't want others to know ? Cliff exactly what are you pissed off about here ? All I've seen here is the truth of whats behind these birds brought out. Some guys have tried every avenue to bury whats behind these birds and now your trying to shut us up. (Yea like that'll work our wives can't even do that LOL) But I truelly would like to hear your thoughts on why you think that these birds are better. Better yet Cliff don't even try. Trust me when I tell you to beware of someone that would feed you this nonsence as they are not helping you . You are getting stuck way to early in the game before you even have an idea of knowing the ropes. Cliff forget what is said here from me or anyone else here and from whoever is feeding you that other stuff and figure it out on your own. Do your homework, if you want to compete check it all out by familys,records or what have you. It may take a while but at least you will have a chance to progress in a positive direction, Cliff it is far to competitive to screw around. good luck
Scott Campbell
Valley Springs Ca.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 27, 2005 10:23 PM
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Bluesman
156 posts
Jan 28, 2005
5:54 AM
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Scott.I am going to ramble here so bear with me.LOL.
Keep the family pure:
Inbreeding,linebreeding,crossbreeding has been done here in the mountains as far back as I can trace.Dogs,chickens,cows whatever.(not people)Altho sometimes I wonder.LOL.
One of the breed of dogs here is called a Mountain Cur.Look what the word Cur says in the dictionary.It says "mongrel dog,worthless".This breed(recognized) was developed in (Guess Where) England and brought to this country when the settlers first settled here.This dog was developed because the family couldn,t afford to have but one dog and that dog had to be able to perform duties as watchdog,hunt,family pet etc.This breed has been handed down thru generation after generation.I have a family of these Curs that when the pups are 6 weeks old I can cull the ones that are never going to be any good.Just by looking at them.This family has been World Champions & State Champions.This family has been bred so tight that they could almost explode.When they get to this point an outcross had/has to be made or performance starts dropping.We have always went outside the family(staying within the breed)and found the best in someone elses family to breed back in.This cross usually brings back the performance in the family.
The point is;dogs or rollers at some point must have an outcross made to maintain performance.At this point the family is no longer pure.
The family of Fireballs I have been talking about is at this point.David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Jan 28, 2005 6:00 AM
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Slobberknocker
50 posts
Jan 28, 2005
7:01 AM
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Well Scott,
I see you are back to your old degrading self again. I spoke with both the Secretary and President of the NBRC and they told me the EXACT same thing as Cliff was told. Maybe you should tell them that they are blowing smoke. You might want to have a new club in mind when you approach them, though.
It seems that there is a small click of folks in the CA area that are against the world and are holding a grudge (bad idea) because of past issues. I was screwed by a man who does not breed for color and yet I do not come on here and label you all a bunch of @!%&!@'s. Where is teh mutual respect?
Bob
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Cliff
41 posts
Jan 28, 2005
7:51 AM
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Man, you just can't let it go can you? I'm trying to give it a rest, but if you keep asking questions, I WILL respond.I caught your disrespectful scoffing of the NBRC Exec Committee(just what I would expect.) It is not their title, by the way, but the fact that they represent a group of gentlemen with years of experience in the sport, with the breed, with the organization and with the competitions. Personally, I respect what these guys have to say. You should try it some time....respect that is. My post was a report on what these guys have to say about the issue. They have no agenda in particular. Why would they not have said, Cliff, you guys are going down the wrong road? Instead, they report what they see and what the judges see in competitions and flys accross the nation with these (color) birds, which happens to confirm what I have seen with my own eyes in a nuber of competitive lofts, and what other guys report on the internet. Is it possible that everyone else is wrong and that you are correct? Of course! It's just not very likely. And that's a gamble I'm willing to take, and one you have trouble accepting. I don't expect you to hear or accept what I am saying, based on the kinds of statements you make in your posts.
How could a bird have been outcrossed generations ago for a color gene, now be as good or better that any other loft of pedigree birds, you ask? I will answer that question, though I know that you already know the answer, and just refuse to acknowledge or accept the possibilities. It is certainly possible, and highly likely that Turner's original Pensoms had excellent genes for the roll in depth, frequency, speed, control and style (or like most birds, a set of pluses and minuses in genetic background for these traits.) What you refuse to accept is that it is quite possible that selecting out a color gene may be irrelevant to the quality factors in the roll. It is just as likely that Turner is, and has been for years, an excellent geneticist, breeder, and manager of his family of birds, another fact you refuse to accept as possibility. Through a combination of these two factors, it is just as likely that he was successful in developing a strong competitive family of rollers as any other breeder and competitor, which may be as good or better than any other given loft of pedigree birds or other family of color birds, depending on the experience and skill of the manager of those birds, as well as THEIR genetic background. You guys are so stuck in your notion that the outcrossing to bring in a color gene can only have had a negative effect, that you refuse to accept the evidence before you. And you have that right. It's the heckling and BS from your camp that is so juvenile.
You say that all you want is for people to make up their own minds. We have done so, in selecting the family of birds that we want to work with based on performance in the air. Why is that so hard for you to accept without criticism and stereotyping, if you really believe what you said about allowing people to make up their own minds. Sounds like you are blowing smoke up your own ass! You asked if I am upset because I didn't know the birds I bought. As I have posted before, I did not have to buy the birds. They we selected out of the air by me and by gentlemen with a touch of class; Turner and other competition winners, and given to me, which is more than I can say for the pedigree guys that I dealt with. And I understand that you cannot accept that fact either, because it doesn't fit your misguided stereotype that guys with color genes in their lofts are feather merchants ripping people off and hiding the truth about the birds. That is simply not the facts, in this case, only a fantasy that you guys have concocted and a mind set in which you persist for some reason. Only performance is relevant, and that just kills you. Am I trying to shut you guys up? No. I respect your right to a different opinion. If you will notice, noone from this camp is labelling your birds with demeaning names or telling you your birds should be classified differently, or trying to convince you that your birds are inferior to ours. I am only attempting get you to communicate with respect, without bigotry, attack and sterotyping; and to accept our right to pursue and to compete in the hobby on equal ground, free from the BS and negative influence that pervades every comment from your camp.
You think I'm stuck. If I'm stuck with gentlemen like James Turner, Jay Yandle, Don Simpson, Joe Bob Stuka, Clay Hoyle, and dozens of other guys with class, experience, Master Flyer awards and years of competitive winning tradition behind them, well I feel pretty good about that! Cliff
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Slobberknocker
53 posts
Jan 28, 2005
8:06 AM
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Cliff,
Preach on Brutha!!! You are great with words and say much better what I cannot. I agree with everything you said and I thank you for taking a stand. However, as the officers I spoke with in the NBRC say, it is a losing battle. They will never change the way they think and they will never respect our side of the issue no matter if ALL colored birds were to win the WC and every other competition out there. They do drive more people away from the competition than anything which is very sad indeed. I spoke with a local guy here who has been watching the posts and he is getting completely out of the breed because of all the negativity from that side. Maybe that is what they are trying to accomplish....?
Bob
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GeorgeV
1 post
Jan 28, 2005
8:43 AM
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Gentelmen, thank you for the education. This may not be the best timming in this debate to interject my observation but maybe a little brevady won't hurt, so here it goes... I can appreciate the "purest" position on this matter and since I am just now getting back into rollers, I am in the process of deciding which way to go. After reading all of the posting I thought I had decided to raise the "pure stock" only. Breed for preformence only and let the color go. But...I'm sorry, I can not excape the LOVE FACTOR!, let me explain... As a young boy in the 60's I fell in LOVE with what I feel is the most magical little bird on earth! Hey guys, they are like lovely young ladies (almost). The fancy colors are like makeup and a beautiful dress on them, they are to die for!(Ok,I'm just a hopeless romantic). I admit It I am just a sucker for a beautifuly colored roller.There is in my opinion nothing more eye appealing then a perfectly proportioned well colored roller. There is no excape for me I am hopelessly in love ,I must raise both!
Thanks, GeorgeV
Treewindows@aol.com
Last Edited by GeorgeV on Jan 28, 2005 9:16 AM
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Mother lode lofts
451 posts
Jan 28, 2005
8:46 AM
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Bob I have no doudt that they stepped lightly, you should have asked them why thier families aren't of such birds. Pretty doubtful that they fed you the same line as what Cliff posted though, but hey sounds good in this forum doesn't it LOL
Cliff it's obvious that who ever you talked to was selected to give you what you wanted to hear. Again if they truelly did tell you what was in that post then tell them that I said to quit blowing some up your ass !!!!!!
Cliff also some of us are a little confused about all of this winning that you keep bringing up. Other than Jay and the 11 bird please enlighten us. Now I don't even remember anyone compareing these birds but only the orgins of such, what exactly did you feed these guys on your end ???
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Mother lode lofts
452 posts
Jan 28, 2005
8:49 AM
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Geoge thats what it's all about !!!! your going in with your eyes open and knowing the difference. Good luck and enjoy
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Slobberknocker
54 posts
Jan 28, 2005
8:50 AM
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Scott,
All I would like to ask of you is a very simple answer to the following question:
Would you agree or disagree that there are some "colored" rollers and breeders of such that have top quality birds that can compete with them? Please, just a simple answer is suffice.
Bob
BTW....Cliff, how can I get in contact with you? My email address is in my profile, you can email me there if you wish.
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Jan 28, 2005 8:53 AM
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glenn
12 posts
Jan 28, 2005
9:11 AM
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Hey Guys:
If you have to cross your birds to get a color, you dont' raise Brimingham Rollers. You should call them what they are...Cross bred Rollers. I have mottles, grizzles, badges, selfs and various shade of torts. But they are not crossed on to another breed to get these colors. You guys are upset because you are being attack every time you bring it up, you want to be accepted but no one wants to deal with you. If you are upfront with your birds and explain what they are
you might get what you want..maybe....and one other note, Pensom resign from the PRC club because he had birds on his proberty that were not Pensom Rollers (Competetion Badges), which went aganist the PRC by-laws. Take care....Glenn
p.s. You guys should listen to Scott....
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Mother lode lofts
453 posts
Jan 28, 2005
9:11 AM
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Dave most families will run lines within the families to draw thier out crosses from. Some will go to someone else that has the same family for it. Most lines run down particular birds within your loft. other lines are down from sibblings, cousins ect. of such birds, the further you go down each line the further that they draw apart. So in reality your outcross is linebreeding further out.
A buddy of mine in England started with six pair out of the same family over 30 years ago and he never breeds closeer than first cousins, aunts/nephews ect.(linebreeding) his reasoning is that inbreeding brings it in to fast and to hard. plus he runs a related leg on the side.
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Phantom1
77 posts
Jan 28, 2005
9:19 AM
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Glen, thanks so much for your input, however off base you might be in this instance. When the term "color" is given to a roller, I don't think - I guess I could be wrong here - that folks are talking about Grizzles, Torts, White Flights, Badges, or Beards. I think color would be things such as Reduced, Dominant Opal, Recessive Opal, etc. And we are calling them what they are. They roll, competitively, but are not at this time, accepted as rollers. Never have we said that we cross breed our birds to get any fancy (bling-bling) colors. Rather, they remain labeled as Cross Breeds. The "colors" you've mentioned are more factors than they are colors. Grizzle can be on Ash Red, Blue, Brown, Yellow, Silver, Reduced, Opal, Milky, etc. Just a point for clarification.
Pinch and Roll!
Eric
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Bluesman
160 posts
Jan 28, 2005
10:15 AM
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Scott.I understand what you are saying.(almost)
What I am trying to say is; What about the one who started out with one or 2 pair, today, 25, or 50 years ago and wanted to keep the family pure and never made an outcross continue to keep it pure and not lose performance.Like my family of Curs(which has to have an outcross about every 15 years) or the family of Fireballs.The Fireballs haven,t been outcrossed yet but one hen will be in a couple of weeks.Either I lose it(roll)or take it back to where it once was.Knowing that as soon as I do the family of this hen is not pure anymore and any young raised from the pair can never be called a fireball again.Can it??Or after so many generations will it become pure again depending on what side of the family you breed to.David
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Mother lode lofts
454 posts
Jan 28, 2005
10:18 AM
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Bob that is an easy one and the answer is "YES" there have been a few that have moved these birds much further !!!! exspecially for the guys that have it floating around but don't pay it any consideration other than perfomance. I know of one such guy that says that there are can be some good birds there and I trust his opinion. And due to that opinion I think that there is being a family bred with these birds as an influence that can be good. But I also think that thier are still birds that are still not more than projects also.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 28, 2005 10:52 AM
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Mother lode lofts
455 posts
Jan 28, 2005
10:33 AM
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Dave I think that all depends on how good those two pair are ? In other words what happens when the gene pool is brought in tight. Do they get better or worse as the faults start popping up ? Say everything is right, it would be easy to take lines in different directions. Bottom line is it either will improve or it won't. Who's to say until you run with it with those two particular pair and find out.
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