Slobberknocker
38 posts
Jan 27, 2005
4:55 AM
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Hello Guys,
I emailed the NBRC President and asked him two questions:
Q: What is the definition of a Birmingham Roller? Or at least what definition does the NBRC go by?
A: The standard is as follows: "The true Birmingham Roller which turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball."
This is the only definition that I am aware of.
Q: Does the NBRC acknowledge ONLY Birmingham Rollers or does it acknowledge other Rollers that perform the same way as a Birmingham?
A: As for your second question. I know of no other breed that performs like the Birmingham.
I have flown Orential Rollers that roll, but they do not roll as fast and do not kit as well.
As far as the NBRC is concerned; if it looks like a roller and rolls like a roller, then it must be a roller.
I hope this lays to rest some of the questions on here. Looks like there are more "Birmingham Rollers" out there than we had originally thought.
Bob
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J_Star
163 posts
Jan 27, 2005
5:51 AM
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Bob, What are you trying to say? And what is the point that you want to make?
You know that anybody can compete with even crap BR if you will and can also compete with champs. If the birds are crossed or not and then still can tumble or spin with frequency or without, they still are Birmingham Rolles. BUT the class of those rollers vary...I would like to have like others the world class rollers. Colored or not.
Dave, you've been in just about every post asking if you have BR or just rollers. You need to determine for yourself what is the class of your rollers? and rate them as you think wise enough. Are they BR, yes they are.
Jay
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Slobberknocker
40 posts
Jan 27, 2005
6:18 AM
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Jay,
I posted this topic as it was asked a couple times what the NBRC defines as a Birmingham Roller. It was questioned about the true BR's so that some will know if they can even compete according to the NBRC rules.
I was talking with a good friend of mine the other day about this topic and I asked him if, at a National Chinese Owl Club Show (Competition as it were), I were to show up with a Modena, would they let me show? He said no, because it is not a Chinese Owl. Plain and simple, cut and dried.
The problem we have here is thet the National Birmingham Roller Club is not so selective. As they say, if it rolls like a BR, then it is a BR. Please note that they didn't say "if it rolls like a BR, then it is a BR unless it is of a rare color".
I think the reason for this is complicated. In the Chinese Owl example, it is easy. You can look at the bird and see if it is a true Chinese Owl or not. With BR's they must perform a certain way. Where it gets sticky is on the fact that some "true" BR's don't roll at all. It is also a fact that some "colored" Rollers can roll with the very best. I think the NBRC has recognized the fact that some have been able to expand the colors of the BR and also keep the performance up as well. Therefore, we now have birds that are not un-corrupted, or "mongrelized" as some like to put it, that will roll to the true BR standard.
Perhaps these new birds should be called Modern Birmingham Rollers...?
Bob
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Phantom1
54 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:40 AM
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Jay, you're right. When I was just a kid, I bought some rollers from a guy - not knowing any better. They didn't cost me too much. But after flying them, and them rolling quite well I might add, I was told they were really Scandaroons!
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Steve S.
56 posts
Jan 27, 2005
9:56 AM
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Bob,
I'm glad Eldon gave you the discription of the Birmingham roller in that way.
See , .. that is the quote William Hyla Pensom gave and used as the discription of a good spinner.
The Birmingham Roller as it was originated.
Note:
They were at Bills time never mixed or crossed and it is a given that if you fly that type and are from the original imports that is what they are.
Just because there are many members in the NBRC and they fly any and everything in the Fall Fly there can be many colors and crosses that fall under that discription.
That still does NOT make them a Birmingham Roller.
Steve
Last Edited by Steve S. on Jan 27, 2005 9:58 AM
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Bluesman
140 posts
Jan 27, 2005
10:15 AM
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Steve.I am not goin to get started in this debate again.Did you not read what Graham Dexter said about the late Ernie Stratford?It was going on long before Pensom started the NBRC.There is documented proof but it's no use trying to prove it as whatever is written and documented is just words on a piece of paper.I am done with all this.I am going to enjoy my 75 foot rolling Fireballs.David
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Phantom1
60 posts
Jan 27, 2005
10:20 AM
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Steve, you've just contradicted everything that has ever been posted in these threads. If it rolls in the style of a Birmingham Roller, it DOES make it a BR. Go back and take a look. The problem is Steve, you, nor anyone, can with the utmost certainty say that a bird is 100% - never been crossed with anything or "polluted" with foreign blood - a TRUE BR. Not to say that I wouldn't take your word for it if you told me a bird was. I'd be sceptical, but would probably still take you at your word. I just don't claim that mine are from direct imports or a certain family. They are my family of rollers that are in the development of rolling in the style - in all aspects of the style - of a BR.
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Slobberknocker
47 posts
Jan 27, 2005
10:41 AM
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Steve,
I see you are trying to stir the pot a little more. However, I will not get into it any further. The NBRC has given un the description of the true BR and that is good enough for me.
Bob
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Steve S.
59 posts
Jan 27, 2005
12:31 PM
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Bob,
I am not trying to stir anything!!
I know that many years have passed and that there might be a banty rooster :) crossed down many times on a roller that could meet that discription.
It don't make it a Birmingham Roller.
That discription was given back when Pensom himself said what a Birmingham Roller was.
The NBRC just took that as a discription of which it was first quoted in the World Cup rules and By Laws and put it in the Fall Fly rules.
What is your agenda here, is it to sell or pass crosses with the discription of a Birmingham roller ????
I can't understand your train of thought.
Steve
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Phantom1
61 posts
Jan 27, 2005
12:44 PM
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That discription was given back when Pensom himself said what a Birmingham Roller was:
What does NBRC stand for?
Why, if not to stand for something, would an organization exist? I don't understand your train of thought on this one. Maybe it's that the NBRC needs to change its name to follow what the idealogy of the "Roller" is in your mind?
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Jan 27, 2005 12:47 PM
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Slobberknocker
48 posts
Jan 27, 2005
12:47 PM
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Steve,
This will be my final word on this but the NBRC still adheres to that definition. They also say clearly that if it rolls like a BR, then it is a BR. What part of that is unclear to you? You will beleive what you want and I am not going to try and change your thought process. Keep stirring my friend, but you will be stirring alone.
Pinch & Roll,
Bob
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Jan 27, 2005 12:48 PM
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Cliff
35 posts
Jan 27, 2005
1:30 PM
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Steve, You really dissappoint me, bud. Pensom said it and the NBRC has said it, yet it's not good enough for you because it doesn't fit your point of view. Cliff
Last Edited by Cliff on Jan 27, 2005 1:32 PM
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Steve S.
62 posts
Jan 27, 2005
1:45 PM
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Cliff,
I truely am sorry I dissapoint you :-).
I do agree with what Pensom said BACK THEN, I even talked to him on this same matter.
He himself bred modenas and I had some of his best.
He said if he crossed them to get the cobby look they would never be the original Black Country Birminghams.
He professed and upheld the purity of the breed.
To many addatives have been mixed to the originals for me to accept that everything that rolls ( Now ) is a True Birmingham Roller.
Steve
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Phantom1
65 posts
Jan 27, 2005
2:17 PM
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I'm starting a new club everyone! I'll call it the National Bird That Does Something In The Air - To Be Determined By The Individual Breeder - Club. Don't know if I'll be able to fit that on a club band though - I'll have to think that one all the way through LOL! Just kidding guys...
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Mongrel lofts
61 posts
Jan 27, 2005
2:54 PM
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Hey Steve,
Your right on the money here Steve!!For every crossed up keeper you dissapoint, there is a Birmingham roller breeder you make proud.. Good common sense Steve.. Mongrel Lofts
Cliff,
I truely am sorry I dissapoint you :-).
I do agree with what Pensom said BACK THEN, I even talked to him on this same matter.
He himself bred modenas and I had some of his best.
He said if he crossed them to get the cobby look they would never be the original Black Country Birminghams.
He professed and upheld the purity of the breed.
To many addatives have been mixed to the originals for me to accept that everything that rolls ( Now ) is a True Birmingham Roller.
Steve
Last Edited by Mongrel lofts on Jan 27, 2005 3:03 PM
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fhtfire
98 posts
Jan 27, 2005
4:27 PM
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I think the reason they talk about the performance to claim if it is a Birminghamr roller is because there is nothing special about them that makes them stand out except when they are in the air. You can tell a Mondena when you see it....you can tell a Fantail when you see it, You can tell a racing homer when you see it. But a roller looks like a regular pigeon but smaller. My buddy has tumblers and they look like a Birmingham to me on the perch. Little compact boogers..the eyes are not as bright as a roller but they kind of look the same and they are both small.....BUT when you put them in the air...there is no doubt which is the Birmingham...even some different families look different...I have some masons that are longer cast, chuck roe birds are in the middle as well as scott campbell...and Tony's birds are small. So you could put all of them with my buddies tumblers and honestly I do not think you could pull out all the Birminghams by the way they look with 100% efficiency.but throw them all in the air and mark them with paint and guess what if they meet the standard of the Birmingham...you can pick everyone out of the air 100%. On the perch nothing makes a Birmingham a Birmingham...I have seen barn pigeons that could pass as a Birmingham on the perch...They are a performance breed and that is the only way to prove it. That proves of my other posts...nobody truly knows that there birds are 100%pure...but when you see the performance..you say...hell they must be..because the birmingham is the ONLY bird that rolls like that. My 2.57 cents..LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Mother lode lofts
440 posts
Jan 27, 2005
4:34 PM
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Now lets ask this question. Are they truelly Rolling to the standard ? There isn't that many lofts out there that even have birds that are even capable of it,expecially compared to the sheer numbers out there. There is a whole lot more to it than just birds rolling.
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Phantom1
69 posts
Jan 27, 2005
5:00 PM
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Scott, maybe I need to start a separate post on this - if so, let's do it. When you say "roll to standard", what is the standard. I know your response is going to include "get out of your own backyard and visit other peoples' lofts and watch their birds". But if I don't have that luxery, what would be the best advise you could give me or a newcomer, to define "roll to standard"?
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Mother lode lofts
443 posts
Jan 27, 2005
5:32 PM
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Eric look at it this way. you have a pair of 20 dollar K-Mart pair of binoculars that you used for years. You think man these are good, then one day your brother Bubba brings over a 1,200 dollar pair of Ziese glasses, until you see the difference you don't even know the difference. It is one of those things that would get lost in words. But under the right kit you "know" the difference. And that is why you will over and over from me to get out of your backyard !!! Or at least put a capable judge under them, you "must" have a "critical" eye to move forward. But first you have to know what truelly good is.
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Phantom1
70 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:11 PM
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Scott, do you know of anyone credible in the Dallas area that I might be able to pay a visit to? I do not. I'm really asking a serious question here. I would like to see a good kit in the air - to learn - to compare - to advance.
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Mother lode lofts
447 posts
Jan 27, 2005
9:13 PM
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Now your talking Eric. I think that I know might know a guy that just moved there. And he'll Know more. I'll get back with you !!!
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Phantom1
71 posts
Jan 28, 2005
6:31 AM
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Thanks Scott - I'm sure it would help me. I took a look at the membership roster for the all-breeds club here. There were two names that stood out. Kelton Parker and Sam Dammamio. I don't know if either of these guys fly competitively or where their birds are at in development.
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