Phantom1
50 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:40 PM
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Okay, all you Die Hards - help me out here. I see many, many remarks about the Mental "awareness, judgement, or ability" of a roller. There's also mention of Heart. Then we have the theory of the "ro" gene. I'm going to go out on a limb here. Do any of us really believe that a bird can make a conscious decsion. I was taught in Biology that humans were the only species that could make a logical decision. All other species in the animal kingdom knew how to eat, poop, and breed. Those were it's inate abilities given at birth. Is it being suggested that rollers and I supposed homers, are two outstanding breeds of pigeons that have actually been granted the gift of rational thought?
Why then do we have rolldowns, fly-aways, or worse - "Oh no, here comes a hawk...better just keep flying and not make eye contact" LOL!!!
I would really like some informed feedback on this.
Thanks,
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Jan 26, 2005 7:46 PM
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RodB
41 posts
Jan 27, 2005
4:46 AM
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Hi Eric , wouldnt say Im a Diehard but I am opinionated :)
I believe animals can make rational decisions based on their rational, if you compare them to us they are stump dumb!
But in the context of a performance animal you need to lower your rational to his level and not try and raise his to yours this really inhances the selection process .
Rod
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J_Star
162 posts
Jan 27, 2005
5:36 AM
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For some reason, I beleive that birds and animals sometimes make better rational decisions than some humans, wouldn't say? Think about it. I would give those birds more credit than you think they deserve.
Jay
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Phantom1
52 posts
Jan 27, 2005
6:23 AM
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I did some reading last night. According to what "science" knows through testing, humans are the only species that are equiped with an advanced brain. Advanced meaning - well basically - our brain is divided into the frontal lobes, middle, back, etc. Through studies performed, apparently it is the advancement of our brain that allows us to make rational decisions. There was also mention to inate ability (things you're born knowing how to do) and learned ability (things you're taught to know through experience).
I'm asking for this reason. If there is some mental capacity to these birds, then I'm scared. One bird too many sees us yank a head off it's brother or sister, and we could have a mutany on our hands! Okay, not that serious, but really! Come on guys...it's pure genetics. That's all it can be. Rollers are hatched with this so-called "ro" gene. It's something unique to them alright! If they don't have the "ro" gene, I'd say they're not a roller. However, once the "ro" gene is in their genetic make-up, it's not something they just lose after a generation or a bad mating. It's still there - it just may not be expressed. Much like the color Recessive Opal for example. It can be there, but not be expressed.
The flip side. If someone is breeding a tight knit family of birds that exhibit the "mental" qualities one is after, then I think there would be a visible mental presence in the loft. I think that would be more coincidence than anything else. More an example of selective breeding for certain inate ability. Not the creation of a super race of pigeons that can make the conscious decision to all roll backward with uncontrolable rapitidy at the same time, then get up and do it again.
I would still like some rational discussion on this topic. We're capable of that...we're humans.
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Mongrel lofts
56 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:16 AM
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Hi Eric,
I don't think Pigeons or some pigeons are capable of rational thought.. What the Birmingham roller breeder means about bringing along the lack of heart or will, is that the Birmingham roller breed, has been bred for many generations, to fly, kit, spin. They have the built in will to handle that great physical stress of high velocity rolling, the mental strengths to handle the spin, and not get freaked out by it..
Many of the cross bred birds, lose this ability and more.. Lets take flying pattern. Do all breeds go up, fly at a good height, slow and steady?? Do the starlings or ice Pigeons that are being crossed into the Birmingham roller to get ice or stencil,, do these breeds fly like a Birmingham Roller?? The answer is no!!! You See, this is one of them little traits, that is being set back by mongrel crosses and their are many many more..
Its not rational thought cross breeding effects, its bred for instinct that the other breeds lack. that is being hampered, ruined or set back in the Birmingham roller breed by crossing.. Breeds of pigeons have been bred for generations to serve different purposes,, Many of the breeds the Mongrel breeders are crossing with, were bred to sit in a little pen, and be docile and have no sporting value. They were bred to show and eat, not fly and be athletic!!!!
How about the trigger to roll? What is it that makes a great team of Birmingham rollers go into an instant bust, like they just flew into a glass wall? How do the Birmingham rollers react so quickly to each other, that they seam to be able to start the roll, almost the same time, in huge numbers within a kit? Its been bred for hundreds of years, and most now think its by sight and a sensitive nervous system stimulated by the sight of another bird starting to go over.. Others think its somewhat more like a school of fish, swerving and making turns all together.. We call it kit sensitivity.. When you cross to other breeds,, what are you doing to this delicate instinct? That natural selection process that has taken place? I don't think the cross breeder cares,, as long as he gets the new modifier and sees one of the cross breeds roll, He don't even consider what else he has done to the Birmingham roller.. What other traits of the breed has been damaged along with bringing in the new color, factor or modifier..
There are many other things to be considered here that are being effected, set back and ruined within the breed of Birmingham roller, that you new guys might want to consider when making your minds up, if Crossing the Birmingham roller is a good thing or not.. For your consideration,, Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel lofts on Jan 27, 2005 7:29 AM
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Mother lode lofts
432 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:22 AM
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Eric it is the glue that holds these birds together, of course the can't "reason". There are birds that the roll controls and there are birds that have control of the roll. Birds that won't kit once the roll hits do so because they are "afraid" of the roll. The team excites them them to roll so they avoid it. You will also see it in some as they want to sit in a tree or top of the loft due to they are afraid to fly because they roll when they fly. Then you also just have the lazy ones that will do the same. Why can a screaming 30 fter change to just doing a few tumbles when over the roof ? And when such a bird rolls out of the kit it shoots back to it like it was shot out of a slingshot ? Why do some birds just let the roll happen and goes with it while others go 30 ft fighting it the whole way down ?
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Slobberknocker
41 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:25 AM
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Mongrel Lofts,
In reading your post I see that your own mental capacity limits you from seeing past the F1 cross of a color. You keep mentioning Ice Pigeons. Why? Point being, many have done some crosses YEARS back and the birds are now true to form. So much so that you cannot even begin to count the generations from the very first cross. Just ask the NBRC. They are a member run club, right? You all might want to check into that and not vote in officers and people who think outside of your tight little claustrophobic box.
Bob
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Slobberknocker
42 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:28 AM
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Scott,
Good post and that is something to think about. I think it all comes back to the family of birds and what the individual breeder is doing with them. We (humans) have made the BR what is is today by selective breeding. If one person selectively breeds for the fast, 30 foot blur, eventually he will have a family that is consistently that. On the other hand, if someone was breeding toward a 100 foot dishrag falling out of the sky, I am sure he will have those as well.
Bob
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Mongrel lofts
57 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:31 AM
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Slobbernocker,
The NBRC has nothing to do with how I feel about Mongrelizing of the Birmingham roller..,I have no idea how come you guys, keep trying to bring a club into our cross breeding debate.. I guess you don't have the mental capacity to understand, we are talking about the birmingham roller breed and what crossing that breed does.. So you keep wanting to talk about the NBRC. Funny..
I tell you what,, how about we get a panel judging and Scott and I will fly against you and Eric.. We will fly all Birmingham rollers and you guys fly all rare colored rollers showing your rare colors..
I think it would be great fun, to fly against a couple of rare colored pigeon sellers , just as good as the Birmingham roller kits..
This is where its at, in the air rolling!! Lets put some kits up, and let the guys see if a rare colored kit is really just the same as a Birmingham roller kit.. Maybe we can get the WC judge to swing by and judge this for us.. Or maybe the losers pay the judges trip.. The bet will be, loser pays the ticker for the judge.. What do you think Slobberknocker? Sounds like fun to me!! Mogrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel lofts on Jan 27, 2005 7:48 AM
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Slobberknocker
43 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:32 AM
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Mongrel Lofts,
I am so sorry, but I can't seem to find anywhere in any of my posts where I have said anything about my birds being better than yours. You fly in competition so you have something to prove. I do not. My birds do exactly what I want them to. I know you hold a grude against someone, but don't. I have seen the movie and it is really a bad idea.
As far as the NBRC, aren't they the National BIRMINGHAM ROLLER Club? Don't they regulate the rules for Competition flies? The debate is whether some of the colored birds are trule BR's or not. The debat is not whether I have better quality Rollers than you. Maybe if we all know who you were, we could do some homework. I don't see anywhere on the NBRC website where it says Mongrel Lofts has done anything. Must be another oversight on their part, right?
If we are not to go by the NBRC's definition of a BR, are we to go by yours?
Bob
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Jan 27, 2005 8:02 AM
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Phantom1
53 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:34 AM
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Mongrel - again you bring up color. I didn't ask one thing about your opinion on color. But since you brought it up, are Ice and Stencil the only colors you're able to talk about, spell, or are these things you're currently working on?
So, to summarize what's been said thus far. It's us humans that have the idealogy of what we're after and we breed towards it or away from it. The roller is a big wad of clay on a wheel to form into what we want, or what we think it should be. Pretty subjective I'd say. We could all be going after something completely different. The NBRC offers no other definition other than "The true Birmingham Roller which turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball."
Okay, so their mental capacity is minimal if existent at all. Rather we breed selectively over years and years toward the traits we hold in the highest regards. So to close the mental "awareness, judgement, or ability" of a roller is nothing more than something we like to talk about, not something that is actually a tangible characteristic that we can work with.
Okay, just thought I might be able to get some "rational" discussion about this. However, it goes back to color - AGAIN, and AGAIN.
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Phantom1
55 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:58 AM
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Mongrel - I wish I knew your name - I don't enjoy typing the word "Mongrel" but I guess if the shoe fits...
I thought this thread was to discuss the mental capacity of rollers...not competition flying against a breeder with colored rollers.
By since that topic is going nowhere. In other words you'd like to get us all to "Put Up or Shut Up"? Is that about it? Okay, I can see you're starting to get a bit threatened by some aspects. I think you need a time out. Go out and let your birds fly. Maybe that'll calm you down.
For the record, I've not ever claimed once that my birds are better than anyone else's on this forum or otherwise. Rather, you seem to jump at the chance to prove or dis-prove your birds. Am I missing something here? I don't guess I am. You're one of the bad ones Mongrel. One of those that can only damn or insult someone and their choices for your own lack of understanding. I hope you enjoy what you do. Someday, it's going to be just you and your birds.
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Jan 27, 2005 8:02 AM
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Mongrel lofts
58 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:59 AM
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Eric,
Slobberknocker is ready to have some competition flying,, How about you and Scotty?? I think this would be great fun.. This has been done before, Scott and some of the Calif guys flew the East coast guys.. they had a blast.. How about it? You and Scott want to have a MONGRELS vs THE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER FLY!!!! LOL How about it Scotty, you want to fly against a kit of Milky, toy stencil, double fator opals, reduced brown bars, brown checks, Lebonise bronzes and all the other modifiers added to the breed the last 30 years or so! YOu guys do have enough good rollers in the rare colors to field a good kit of rare colored rollers don't you,, Thats a dumb question, you sell them rare colors all the time, SO I know you have plenty of good ones rolling over the house.. So lets have a fly guys!! Mongrel Lofts
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Phantom1
56 posts
Jan 27, 2005
8:07 AM
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You baffle my mind MONGREL! You are so well equipped with this arsenal of colors (though you can't spell them too well). Yet the fact remains, you DO NOT UNDERSTAND THEM! At all! Bottom line! If they roll, they roll. Aside from the point. Have I OR Slobberknocker ever claimed once that our birds are better than yours or Scott's? Have we once said anything negative about the performance of your birds or what you're trying to do with them? No. You've got your panties in a wad MONGREL. Go pull your skirt down, look in the mirror, fix your make-up, and come back when you're ready to try and get along with some folks.
By the way, if you'd ever take the time to ask some well thought out questions, you might actually learn something about the colors Slobberknocker and I have, and the performance level that they're at.
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Slobberknocker
44 posts
Jan 27, 2005
8:07 AM
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Mongrel,
Although your challenge seems intriguing, I do not allow such arrogant, self-righteous people on my place. You sure like to toot your own horn. If you read some of the posts, you will see where I have acknowledged Scotts birds as being good. Of course, he does not hide behind a name like Mongrel. Oh, the ironies of life!!
Bob
BTW....Mongrel Lofts, what is your name and do you even belong to the NBRC? I want to make sure I tell them who is the reason why I will never join their club or compete in their competitions.
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Jan 27, 2005 8:14 AM
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Mongrel lofts
59 posts
Jan 27, 2005
8:13 AM
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Eric,
Cross breeding does effect the mental instinct of the breeds when cross bred,, so talking about cross breeding and what it does to a birds make up,, is along your thread.. My name is Ken Billings Eric,, I live in Kuna Idaho.. I have had rollers since I was a boy, but been trying to breed good rollers, since around 1976.. the family I have now, I started around 85.. I just plain Love the Birmingham roller Eric.. Can you tell? LOL
I don't care what you guy cross into your birds,, I just want the new comer to know both sides and go into the hobby with his eyes wide open.. Good solid famillies of Birmingham rollers are getting rarer and rarer all the time Eric.. We need guys out there to keep the breed pure,, or what will you guys have to cross to? LOL Just funnin Eric,, we should try to put this fly together,, would be fun.. I know I fly birds everyday I can.. Flying a comp, is just another day flying rollers here.. Mongrel Lofts
Mongrel - I wish I knew your name - I don't enjoy typing the word "Mongrel" but I guess if the shoe fits...
I thought this thread was to discuss the mental capacity of rollers...not competition flying against a breeder with colored rollers.
Last Edited: by Phantom1 on 2005-01-27 07:58
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Mother lode lofts
433 posts
Jan 27, 2005
8:14 AM
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Eric I also might add that first class birds will aso have that "air" of confidence about them on the ground also. And when you open the door they won't look at you with the "please don't make me go out there look" You can see it in the over all expression of the bird. These birds are very complex and that is what I love about them. Mongral brought up some very points but you will also see such faults heavily in any poorly bred family also whether they are color or not. It is in their makeup.
This is the nuts and bolts that birds must have.
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Slobberknocker
45 posts
Jan 27, 2005
8:16 AM
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Scott,
Another good post. Again, it comes down to what we all breed for and whether or not we have an eye for the breed. I have seen top quality birds (in show breeds) get beat because of lack of knowledge about the breed.
Good post Scott!!
Bob
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Mother lode lofts
434 posts
Jan 27, 2005
8:19 AM
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Kenny you know that I am allways game for a "fly" it would be fun !!!!!!! This is the beauty breed ,they are athletes.
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Mother lode lofts
435 posts
Jan 27, 2005
8:20 AM
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Kenny you know that I am allways game for a "fly" it would be fun !!!!!!! This is the beauty breed ,they are athletes.
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Phantom1
57 posts
Jan 27, 2005
8:32 AM
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Ken, thanks for posting your name. I really HATE typing the word "mongrel".
Scott, I know exactly what you mean about the "on the ground as well". My homers, when I had them, would hear me coming out back. They'd be hanging on the wire, ready to get out and fly. But is that more conditioning - mental not so much physical? I would compare that response from birds to Pavlov's Box. The bell rang, the dog salivated. I walked out in the back yard, the birds heard the screen door slam, knew it was time to go! Is this a possible scenario of conditioning and positive re-inforcement through training versus the genetic gusto?
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Slobberknocker
46 posts
Jan 27, 2005
8:49 AM
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"Good solid famillies of Birmingham rollers are getting rarer and rarer all the time Eric.. We need guys out there to keep the breed pure"
Kenny,
I must say that I absolutely 100% agree with your statement there. You are right in that we need guys to keep the breed pure and you are also right that without the pure stuff, those who do cross for color would have nothing to cross to. I would venture to say that there are many more inpure families of true BR's than there are pure families. Again, it is to each individual's tastes as to what they will breed.
Actually, I applaud those of you who have true, pure, uncorrupted stock that has bred true and held up for so many years and generations. This would apply to any breed. So few people these days have the patience to do that kind of thing without getting bored.
On the other hand, where true BR's are getting rarer all the time, we all (both sides of this silly debate) need to embrace and welcome everyone who wants to participate in the breed whether they are a backyard breeder or a WC winner. There are a hell of a lot more reasons today for people NOT to have pigeons than there are reasons to have pigeons especially for young people without having to get caught in the middle of silly debates.
Somehow we need to find some middle ground here and get along. We are, after all, on the same side here. If you do not agree with what I do, that is your right. We can agree to disagree. This silly debat could go on until Jesus comes back and there will still not be a winner. The NBRC peopel do not even print articles around these contrversial topis so as not to rock the boat. Perhaps they are the smart ones in this....
Just some thoughts. Oh, and Kenny, I do apologize for what I said about not joining the NBRC. I was typing faster than my brain was working.
Bob
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Mother lode lofts
436 posts
Jan 27, 2005
8:49 AM
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Not really Eric what you are describing is more as you say conditioning to a response. What I mentioned was just one example and other factors may also play in, and keep in mind that we are talking about birds that are allready in the roll for the most part but you can also see it in birds before they are in the roll in the way of not kitting or not wanting to fly. Some birds do fine until the roll hits them. But what happens when the roll hits ? can they handle it and learn how to deal with it ? or do they do what ever it takes to avoid it such as not kitting,not wanting to fly , or fighting the roll it's self while in the roll, Or it may be constant bumping.
It can be subtle problems to extream problems. There is a whole package that evolves around these birds in the way of physical and mental.
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Mongrel lofts
60 posts
Jan 27, 2005
9:10 AM
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Hi Bob,
No need to apologize about the NBRC.. I know how this topic can get heated.. I enjoy the guys passion, even though I completely disagree.. Hey Bob, I don't know about you, but you don't have to agree with me, to be friends..
I have a love for the breed Birmingham roller and I know some guys have a love for rollers that are of rare colors.. I like the debates, because they inform the new oomer, and they make both of us old comers, think about what we beleive about the Birmingham roller breed..
Bob, I'm sure we would get along great, same with Eric.. You guys have every right to your opinions about crossing the breed to get color.. I have every right to my opinion, about the damage I see it causing.. If you will notice, I have never asked anyone to not voice their opinion on the topic..
We all pay our own feed bills.. We all have the right to breed what we like.. We all have the right to tell the people in the breed, why we beleive what we beleive and to debate those thoughts.. Thats all this forum is,, is a way to get the topics of the day out there, and let the people decide, what they want to breed and feed in their own lofts.. No Ill feeling do I have for any of you folks Bob,, For your consideration, Mongrel Lofts
I hope to meet you all one day,,
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Phantom1
58 posts
Jan 27, 2005
9:23 AM
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Ken, thanks for your posts. You too Scott. We're always going to disagree in some aspects of what we're trying to do with this breed.
Ken, just a point of clarification for Bob and I. We do not cross breed our birds. The colors we have are on birds that, according to the consensus of the NBRC and those that visit this forum, exhibit the qualities that define what a Birmingham Roller is. Do we deny that crosses have been made generations ago? Absolutely not. Do we deny that there are people that cross breed pigeons today for whatever purposes? Absolutely not. Will we continue to push the point that "some" colors were developed from pure rollers and that some existed in rollers and were just not identified as what they are known as today? Absolutely we will. It can be labeled as our opinions, as there's really no way to prove the facts.
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Bluesman
139 posts
Jan 27, 2005
10:04 AM
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Ken.Eric has said exactly the way I feel.I just didn,t have the words to write the way I feel.NBRC has answered all my questions and I have decided not to cancel my membership.For all newcomers pick out what you can use & trash the rest.Ken you may be a Hard Head & a Purist but I love you anyway.LOL.Your 11 bird score was still impressive.But don,t think you will do it again this year.Keep lookin over your shoulder.You are going to have some competition this year.LOL.David
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Bluesman
141 posts
Jan 27, 2005
10:32 AM
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Scott.In your opinion.Why would a family of Fireball Rollers kept pure,never an outcross,of any kind,all from the original pairs for the past 30 years lose its roll over the past 5 years from 75 to 100 foot rollers to 40 to 60 foot rollers?
Anyone else who knows anything about keeping a family pure can also reply.Again your opinion.
This has nothing to do with any other threads.LOL.David
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Steve S.
57 posts
Jan 27, 2005
10:41 AM
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David,
I think it is the breeder that is making the wrong choices as to his pairings and not keeping an eye on what the results are and letting his depth,quality and maybe speed fall apart.
This is why in a pure family you have to keep a "cock" side or line of the family and a "hen" side or line to pretzel back in the above desired traits.
Steve
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Bluesman
142 posts
Jan 27, 2005
10:54 AM
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Steve.If this is what happened by always breeding the best to best how can it be corrected.How can the family be kept pure.I think you are one of the ones who remembers the Fireballs so you know what they could do.David
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Steve S.
58 posts
Jan 27, 2005
12:14 PM
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David,
That is an old saying: Best to Best, but not all the progeny will give you what you want in the depth area.
If your depth of a hen shortens up go back to the cock side for a producer of depth.
Some of my deeper kit bird cocks put on a deep kit bird hen both being 40 + feet when put in the breeding pen produce stiff seldom average 20-25 footers.
I go back to the breeders in my loft for a deeper produceing bird to put on these hens and cocks mentioned above to deepen the roll.
I will shorten it sometimes to get a faster kit bird that works with the kit sensitivity to go in the breaks and get back to the kit for the next break.
We are gettin into the comp aspect here I'll leave that alone as your question was for the depth of the fireballs.
I would think the fireball strain would have to be handled the same.
Steve
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Phantom1
62 posts
Jan 27, 2005
12:51 PM
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Stiffs? Steve, didn't Pensom mention something about inbreeding too much or too long a period, and resulting in stiffs? I think that's something that has been mentioned on these forums before. Is this something that can also attribute to it? Just too much inbreeding in one family?
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Bluesman
143 posts
Jan 27, 2005
1:13 PM
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Steve.This family of Fireballs have dwindled over the past 30 years.The luxury of going anywhere to help has long past.Over the past 5 years it has really gotten worse.Not even an outcross could be found from anyone else having Fireballs.Where do I go from here.Scrap one of the best strains of the century or what? David
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Steve S.
60 posts
Jan 27, 2005
1:26 PM
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David,
I don't think I have heard of a family that can't be salvaged.
Try every pairing you haven't tried and you might be able to hit a click pair.
There has to be someone out there with a fireball family doing the drill.
I would look there if all else fails.
Steve
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Steve S.
61 posts
Jan 27, 2005
1:33 PM
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Eric,
I don't think inbreeding in itself makes stiffs.
Its how we use the family.
Inbreeding is not just bro. sis. mateings it is a variable of aunts, uncles, half bro half sis mateings.
To get hotter spinners from an inbred family I think you have to breed the dumbest.
The smarter rollers will fight the roll.
First you have to learn your OWN family to recognise this trait.
Steve
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Bluesman
144 posts
Jan 27, 2005
1:43 PM
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Steve.You are not understanding what I am saying.This family is not a big family.Every mating has been done over and over and over.Never was a large family to begin with.If I remember right there was 2 pair.A pair of Red Mottles and a pair of Yellow Mottles.I haven,t been able to find anyone who can say the fireballs they have were kept pure.David
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Steve S.
63 posts
Jan 27, 2005
1:58 PM
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David,
I understand now.
I thought you had a loft of these.
Some years ago I knew of an old man in northern Ohio that raised them straight from Graham but I forgot the address.
He might still be alive I don't know.
I will get with my ole buddy Wally Forte in Canton Ohio
and if anyone knows if there are any good ones still around he will.
Steve
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Mother lode lofts
439 posts
Jan 27, 2005
4:00 PM
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Dave I'm not sure why you would be loosing depth as it is very easy to breed for if that is all you are looking for without taking in any other considerations.
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Siddiqir
158 posts
Jan 28, 2005
8:28 AM
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I believe pigeons have Mental awareness...some are weaker and some are stronger, the stronger once fool us and it is difficult to deal with them...we cull both weaker and stronger, culling weaker is ok as it is not up to standard and what we looking for but culling stronger means we can not deal with it. All living creatures have mental awareness...pigeons consider to be real smart. Just my opinion :)
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Phantom1
74 posts
Jan 28, 2005
8:34 AM
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What the hell kind of pigeons are you breeding? LOL!
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Siddiqir
159 posts
Jan 28, 2005
8:57 AM
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I have "Rollers" breed not sure if they are Birmingham Rollers but they roll :)
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Slobberknocker
55 posts
Jan 28, 2005
8:59 AM
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Siddiq,
They are Birmingham Rollers. Just call them that and be happy with them.
Bob
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Phantom1
76 posts
Jan 28, 2005
9:00 AM
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I was just joking with ya Sidd. I know where you got your birds from, and I know they're good ones. LOL!
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2701Dunn
6 posts
Jan 28, 2005
9:18 AM
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Hey everyone !
Again I am still a new fancier myself but I am very close to my birds as we all are. Yes they are animals but I think they are a lot smarter than most of us give them credit for. Pigeons know where danger is around, they know where the food is when they are hungry. If anyone of you have ever saved a pigeon's life before? How does that bird act with you afterwards ? Just think about it. I believe there is a lot of mental and heart in these birds. Yes more in some than others. Now, do all of you watch your birds and as they form the kit. There is always a leader is there not ? That is not something you are born with that is something you bring on to yourself. And has anyone seen there birds while in flight warn each other of danger and flap their wings really hards then sky up because of an hawk coming through? I know what my answer is to all of these things. YES Again I am new but I know what I see and everyday I feed my birds before work at 6 am and they know who I am and when its feeding time and when I get home. You can say what you want about me but I love my birds and get attached and its because of the heart, and the minds of these amazing animals that keeps me close. So to me I would have to go with my gut and not what scientists say or what research says. I have learned so much in the past year and I love every sec. of it. Just like when your birds fly and you can watch them and tell they are enjoying it. Where does joy come from? The heart. So I guess we all know where I stand.
Thanks !
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Phantom1
78 posts
Jan 28, 2005
9:24 AM
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Dunn - you're discussing the "Fight or Flight" nature that is in all species of the animal kingdom. Good point to make though. It can be observed in different settings and perceived in many different ways I suppose. As for the "Leader of the Pack". I can see that in the loft too. There is typically one bird - most always a Cock Bird - that nobody messes with. Is the same bird in the loft, the same leader in your kit? Could be just a coincidence. Good thoughts on the matter! Eric
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2701Dunn
7 posts
Jan 28, 2005
11:15 AM
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I am discussing both. The "Fight" yes is in all species but is the teamwork you think comes from nature. I mean in human world it does not. We have to teach ourselves and train to have good teamwork and the trust. I think the pigeons we fly get that aftet being brought up together and being close and flying together. Yes, I do have a leader in my kit and to be totally honest with you I am not sure if it is a cock or hen. I think you are right in my case the cock is usually. I am also new and have a lot to learn so I could be totally wrong. I am just going on what I have seen in my birds and the birds of others I have been watching over the past year in a half. Thanks for commenting though.
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J_Star
175 posts
Jan 28, 2005
11:35 AM
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Dunn, Best advice i can give which was given to me is "Never fall in love with just one bird!". Good Luck
Jay
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2701Dunn
8 posts
Jan 28, 2005
12:30 PM
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hey j star,
Yeah that happen to me last august. I had this white and yellow bird he was the leader. the man i got him from said he was good just the roll came later. a pretty young bird but was tough. i had so many hawk problems and he always out ran the hawk. until his calling and i never saw im again. he was a beautiful bird. thanks for the message though.
cameron
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