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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
My Mongrel Begginings
My Mongrel Begginings
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Mongrel lofts
52 posts
Jan 25, 2005
3:20 PM
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Guys,
When I first got started in the Birmingham roller breed, I like so many that read these pages.. I wanted the best rollers my hard worked for money could buy.. My parents owned a hamburger stand and me and my girlfriend, now my wife of the last 25 years, worked there after school and on weekends.. We got paid once a week and would go to the top roller breeders in our area, and they were all to happy to take our money, all the while telling us, Son, those are some choice Birmingham rollers, they just don't come any better than those. We were paying from $25 to $100 dollars a pair back in those early days..
Like so many today, the pretty odd colors were attractive and the guys were telling us, they were Birmingham rollers, as good as they get.. Most had many reason why they couldn't fly, or did not fly anymore, but assured us, the pretty birds were great rolling stock.. I spent thousands over a few years, and wasted all those years, to find out, these birds were not Birmingham rollers, they were Mongrels, crossed and bred for patterns, factors and colors.. I flew the heck out of my Mongrels,, I did get a good roller every now and then, most didn't roll, were mad tumblers or rolled down..
When I seen a real kit of Birmingham rollers, I could not beleive my eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!! I learned a valuable lesson that day,, Men, the mad scientist who cross breed the Birmingham roller to get pretty feathers, are not moving the Birmingham roller forward. They maybe good for the hobby of keeping pigeons and selling pigeons, but they are a POX on the breed Birmingham roller and the men who created, breed and keep them!!
You new roller enthusiast, Ask yourself, how does mating a roller on a swallow, a bird with huge feathers on its feet and no sporting value, Improve the rolling performance of the Birmingham roller? If you wanted the best rollers you could breed.. Would you make this mating for any reason you can think of to improve the roll? Even as a newbie to the roller breed, would you cross your rollers on other show breeds of birds, to make your birds roll better? Ask yourself this, would adding Ice pigeon, oriental frill, swallow, Modena or any of the other show breeds these Rare colored Mongrelizers cross with their rollers, add one thing we want in the best rollers?? What do these show breeds add to the Birmingham roller,, speed of roll, frequency of roll, depth of roll, STYLE?? What is it these cross breeds add to the performance of the Birmingham roller? I think even the newbie can see these crosses add nothing to the performance of the Birmingham roller and are not made to improve the breed, but only to add factors, patterns and colors and set the performance of the breed back, not forward..
You new guys, have one advantage I didn't have,, you know what the rare colored roller breeder is doing to the breed to get his rare colors.. No one was honest enough to tell me this when I was starting in rollers. Beleive me guys,I'm not the only with a story like this either,,
If this helps one new roller man not have to waste his time and money on crossed up pigeons for pretty feathers.. It will be well worth the heat I'm sure this post will cause,,
For your Consideration,, Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel lofts on Jan 25, 2005 4:08 PM
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Mother lode lofts
411 posts
Jan 25, 2005
8:02 PM
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You forgot to add that who's on the other side of this is pigeon peddlers of these birds for the most part. Was fooled myself at one time and have the same story. Hey why do you think that the ones that do roll tend to fall apart so easily ? Why are there so many non-kitters and why are tree sitters so common ? There is a little more to these birds than just adding the roll back, you think ? The problem gotta be lack of mental strength due to the crosses I would think (what else) although I would think that pysical differances would have to play in also. Or were just too hot of birds used to put the roll on them ? They gotta hold it together even if they do roll. What are your thought on this ?
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 25, 2005 10:44 PM
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Alan Bliven
61 posts
Jan 25, 2005
9:14 PM
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In the breeding of all domestic performance animals it's well known you just can't breed for color or comformation without having performance suffer. It's just common sense.
They tried breeding German Shepherds for both color, comformation and Police Dog atributes and they ended up with neither.
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Alan
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RodB
35 posts
Jan 25, 2005
11:49 PM
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Lots of truth on this page :)
Rod
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Slobberknocker
20 posts
Jan 26, 2005
5:33 AM
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There is some truth in the above posts, but let me tell you what my experience has been.
I went to the top in the NBRC when I wanted to get started with good birds 7 or 8 years ago. A Mr. R.M. told me that of the 2,000 NBRC member there were only about 3 that had any birds worth feeding at all. Of course, he was one of them. (Remember, he is NOT a color breeder.) He proceeded to tell me the starting price for good birds was $300.00 per pair. I am not saying they weren't worth that, I don't know, but a guy in his mid-twnties with a family cannot afford to get into a breed for that kind of cash.
Turns out, James Turner has been very helpful with advice and very generous with excellent birds. So have a few other good friends I have met along the way.
I decided the moment I hung up the phone with R.M. that I would never fly in competition if all these guys were that arrogant and greedy. I was told, at the time, that R.M. was as good as there was in the breed here in the U.S. Now maybe some of you can see why some of us have a bad taste in our mouths from the competition guys.
Just food for thought.
Bob
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Mother lode lofts
412 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:35 AM
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For the right pair of birds that would be a steal !!!! as the right pair of birds could found a loft. The question is , Just because you pay 300 bucks does that mean that it is the right pair of birds ? No it doesn't
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 26, 2005 7:36 AM
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Slobberknocker
29 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:46 AM
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Good point, Scott!! The only question that I would have is this...Is the guy who is trying to get $300.00 per pair to the new guy just getting started really helping the new guy or just trying to cash in on inexperience? Honestly, I would probably pay close to that for a pair of birds that I could see with my own eyes and if they were birds that would help me further my family of birds in the right direction.
Bob
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RodB
36 posts
Jan 26, 2005
2:24 PM
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For the right pair of birds I would pay $300 in a heartbeat , the right birds are priceless !
With the right birds you will save that ten times just in feed over a few yrs unless you feel raising junk is not wasting feed , but the number one advantage is you will save years in getting to where you want with the right birds and time is non refundable and when its wasted its very expensive ! life is short you dont want to spend it chasing rainbows .
To get true blood is the first thing a beginner needs to address and he has his level of understanding as his only guide , do your homework its a very important phase , he must find the bloodline first then the individuals from within that bloodline !
True blood and true breeding is the key , in the beginning believe it or not, the blood is more important than the performance of an individual from a great family , when dealing with a pure tight bred performance family the average of the family will be higher than another looser bred strain , and because mother nature will always try and revert to the average of an individuals immediate ancesters you can start with lower end performers from a great family and get great birds within a few generations if you have the ability to manage and select correctly because those great birds are in the blood , of course its better if you can get the great performers from the family but to get brothers and sisters or close kin of the familys best is no problems when starting out, even if they are ordinary performers themselves as long as the family is real top line and the blood is presented to you in true pedigree meaning that the breeder has told you the truth as to how it was bred .
Just because a high price is put on an item does not guarantee that item is quality , their are lots out there that will separate a fool and his money .
Rod
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Bluesman
126 posts
Jan 26, 2005
2:42 PM
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Rod.You say you would pay 300.00 for the right pair.But how do you know which pair is the right pair.
You can come to my place and pick from the air a pair I am asking 300.00 for and everything is just what I say they are.You take them home and breed from them and they don,t reproduce themselves.Not the right pair.Could happen to anyone.Look at Mongrel Lofts.He spent thousands in a few years and by the way thousands 25 years ago was a lot of money and still wound up with trash.You would think that after the first year he would have asked questions rather than keep handing over his hard earned money to a swindler.Ken no wonder you have a grudge.But not everyone is out to take someones money.I would bet my months pay that more birds are given away to someone starting that is sincere in rollers than are sold. David
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RodB
38 posts
Jan 26, 2005
3:12 PM
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I answered your question already Dave , for me to come to your loft and pay a high price for a pair of birds , you would during our conversations leading up to the sale need to convince me and my level of understanding that what you are offering me is truely based on fact or just your opinion .
Rod
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Mother lode lofts
418 posts
Jan 26, 2005
3:35 PM
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I think the biggest difference here is a loft that has the right birds vrs a loft that does'nt, Mee here is a good example. He has the right birds, the others here don't have anything that compares , and there is the long and short of it. If the pair doesn't work then you work something out is all. That first pair kicks off the relationship also.
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Bluesman
127 posts
Jan 26, 2005
4:05 PM
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Rod.You said exactly what I wanted you to say."Convince me and my level of understanding".You are not understanding what we are trying to convey.Why won,t someone please contact NBRC and see what they say.Roller or Birmingham Roller.Is there 2 seperate rollers going on or not.NBRC is being disgraced here as much as we the so called Color Rollers are.I would think someone who belonged to such a prestigous Roller club would step up and try to set things straight.How many members will NBRC lose before this thing is resolved.I bet Tony wishes sometimes he had never started this site.We love you Tony.Thanks for allowing us to voice our opinion.David
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Mother lode lofts
420 posts
Jan 26, 2005
4:15 PM
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This has nothing to do with the NBRC , who here is conveying that ?????? There is no reason that it should even be mentioned in this topic, in fact Dave I believe that you are the only one!!! Besides it is ran by the membership
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 26, 2005 4:18 PM
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Bluesman
128 posts
Jan 26, 2005
4:22 PM
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What has nothing to do with the NBRC?Are you and others not here trying to say there is a difference in a color bred roller and a Birmingham Roller.Is the NBRC not the National Birmingham Roller Club? Is not the NBRC dedicated to the preservation and further development of the Birmingham Roller in the air?It has everything to do with NBRC.David
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Phantom1
45 posts
Jan 26, 2005
4:40 PM
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....the NBRC is ran by the membership....
Scott, that is the best and most direct statement I think I've ever heard. As with many clubs, good clubs anyway, it should be that way.
Now I'll pose a question that I think will make some sense. Is it possible, being ran by the membership, that what is being sought after is determined by the membership as well. Bare with me here. Standards for show breeds change with the times. Is the performance level or style of what you and others are trying to maintain, just that. Not necessarily preserving anything from what the Birmingham once was. Or is that fliers are chasing down what each determines to be how they want their birds to fly. OR, is it a matter of what's going to be the most appealing to a judge in a comp. fly? Or is it none of the above, or all of the above?
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Mongrel lofts
54 posts
Jan 26, 2005
5:31 PM
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You guys have got to be kidding.. I'm watching the NBRC genetics tapes by Turner, as we speak.. Half the birds in the tape,are either not flown yet, due to not being roller type yet, or are f1 crosses off ice pigeon on a roller.. They show you some birds carring modifiers they want, that don't roll, but the are breeding them to get the modifier,, does that sound like roll first to you???
YOu can't get anyone to run and hid threatening them with the NBRC, you can fly a kit of rolling English trumpeter in the NBRC fly,, if they are the best spinners and break the most under their rules,, the English Trumpeter rollers will win the NBRC fly.. This has nothing to do with the NBRC,, but you guys are hoping someone will shut the truth up!!!
All you people please, get these tapes put out by James Turner and the NBRC,, See for yourself, the Mongrelizing, cross breeding and the way these guys are trying to make Mongrels roll.. Look, don't take my word for this or their word,, Get the tapes, its there for you all to see.. If you think its OK to Cross an ice pigeon on a roller and 7 generations later, start flying them again to put the spin back in them,, Great get you some of those.. At least you know what you are getting into..
For those of you that want only the best the Birmingham roller breed has to offer, Run, don't walk away from any loft that practices this type of Mongrelizing, and then blows hot smoke up your butt, hoping it will cloud your eyes and mind, so you can't see what they are doing to the breed... Get those Genetic tapes put out by the NBRC,, Then make up your mind, if these guys are concerned with roll first, and color, pattern and factors second?? For your consideration,, Mongrel Lofts
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Bluesman
130 posts
Jan 26, 2005
5:48 PM
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Ken.What does anyone have to do to become a member.I was told you have to breed Birmingham Rollers.I joined the NBRC.Now you and others on here are telling me that you can fly trumpeters in the NBRC.Who is blowing smoke.Prove me wrong.Have NBRC give their opinion.Are you afraid of what they will say.James Turner is a Hall of Fame Member and stil a member yet you are saying he raises crossed up Mongrels and they are not Birmingham Rollers.All I want to know is do I have Birmingham Rollers or should I cancel my membership in the NBRC.If I am just raising rollers that are crossbreeds and mongrels and not Birmingham rollers why wasn,t I told this before I popped down 25.00 to become a member.Is the NBRC allowing trumpeters etc to be flown in their competitions for the money or have you drawn your own conclusions to something like things before.David
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dmitch
11 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:18 PM
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Just the book I paid $500 for 6 birds 2 cock and 4 hen that is my famliy of birds all have been proven in the air and breeding.Befor any new comer buy any birds they should take there time and meet as many roller men as they can they come in all kind some with B.S and some not.After all we would not go to the 1 grad and the next day be in the 12 so it is up to us to do our homework first. P.S PHARREAL
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Phantom1
49 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:30 PM
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Dmitch - I don't know what you just said.
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RodB
39 posts
Jan 27, 2005
4:01 AM
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Dave , and please dont take this the wrong way , if you need to ask if you have what is being discribed here as true Birmingham Rollers , then you probably dont .
You dont just get top shelf pure old family Rollers by accident or get them easy , it will be a winding road to thier door and by the time you get there you will know why you are there and exactly what you are looking for , especially if you live a long way away from the core , like me I live in Australia so for me to get to the real stuff in America will not be easy or cheap and will take a few years before I import for myself , but thats the challenge , I spent my first half with my dogs and now Im going to spend the rest of my life raising performance rollers and Im loving every minute , but at the moment Im a beginner just like you .
To understand Pure old family is so much deeper than inbreeding and genetics ,which are only tools that are used in propagating a winning family , family is not about inbreed some birds for a few yrs and you have a family , its about using inbreeding as a tool to stack the most sort after performace traits into a group so that those traits appear within the offspring on a regular basis , old time breeders inbred not because they knew genetic science but because for the most part way back it was easier , they also had the added benefit in that they new what they had and was not taking a risk breeding to stock with a skeleton in the closet that they didnt know about .
In the early years of development the initial results they got when inbreeding tight were things you get from intensifying hidden recessive genes like smaller size less vigor 3legs etc etc , they come to the top and show themselves when first breeding unrelated stock but when you keep selecting for performance over many years those unwanted traits are brought to the surface and eliminated while the traits you want are bred deeper and deeper with the passing of time into the blueprint of a family , as the old timers were forced to use stock that was close at hand because of means of travel etc winning familys were branched to trusted or controlled fanciers and like minded people within a days travel or so from the initial founder , remember its horse and buggy days , these branches were bred independant from the main core blood , these sub-familys would be overseered by the founder and watched closly , he would sit back and select the very best of these sub familys and breed them back into the core blood where he found that it produced hybred vigor and outstanding performers from the inbred core stock , but it was also the branches where the blood would slip out into the general fancy and over time many highly regarded strains would have been developed from these dealt out sub-family birds , also around now they would have been bred away from the core for so long that they are no longer influenced geneticly by the core one iota , most of this next wave or generation of stock and its offspring would have been dealed out when the birds became popular which coincides in history with improved world communication and progress .
All the while the core and sub familys were still being cultivated by men that were close to its origin by virtue of understanding the depth of the birds heritage passed down from man to man the bird held close and only passed on to those that are worthy , its only when you understand this hertage can you ever hope to own a bird that has it and through the understanding be able to benefit from the power the bird carrys in a breeding loft .
The birds I seek will come from as close to the bone as I can find and I know on going in Im not going to get somebodys best birds , but with what Im looking for I would gladly devote the rest of my time starting with the ordinary brother to a performing ace .
Rod
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Bluesman
137 posts
Jan 27, 2005
4:40 AM
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Rod.Didn,t know you lived in Australia."Tally Hey" as we say here in the mountains of Pa.
That is what this whole thing is about.
Why would an officer of the NBRC tell me they were and take my 25.00 for the membership fees and then other members of the NBRC(which the members run the NBRC)tell me they are not.
What am I suppose to think.I am a Newcomer to the competition thing.Am I being told they are just to get me as a member to fly in competition or are they just Performing Rollers.It is a big deal for me.I don,t want to sell someone a roller I raise as being a Birmingham if it isn't.Just tell me that NBRC broke the rules again(don,t abide by their own By Laws) and I should take it for what it's worth and stop calling them Birminghams and get back to calling them Crossbred Performing Rollers.If the NBRC is saying one thing and doing another then I don,t want any parts of it.I am not trying to trash NBRC.I was impressed with the kindness,help & generosity I was shown by the ones I had contact with.Thats why I joined.But they can,t have it both ways.Brian is the only one who has earned the right to have it both ways.He has the knowledge of both sides.LOL David
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Mother lode lofts
431 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:02 AM
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Rod you have tied in with the guys over there correct ?
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RodB
42 posts
Jan 27, 2005
2:53 PM
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Scot , you ask have I tied in over here with the guys correct , well mate ,I,ve only had these birds 6mths I have a distance handicap and live in a non pigeon part of the country ( Australia is the same area size as the USA but with only 25mill population) , my nearest Roller guys are a 1000 miles away , I traveled 2000 miles to get a start with the John Weins imported stock from Adrian Gaspirini , I bought his entire number 3 team which I didnt see fly although Adrian wanted me to , I only had time to see one kit fly because of plane flights so I wanted to see his number one team which are brothers and sisters to the ones I got , at this stage I was happy with them , over the next couple of years I will try and learn how to fly comp rollers correctly and work out what I have in terms of quality , for me to see the guys down sth fly will mean a plane trip so I feel I,ll rack up some frequent flyer pts in the near future :) .
I really dont know what blood is in Australia at this point in time or who the best breeders or flyers really are , but hopefully I will seek them out over time with meeting the fraternity in person , if you can offer any info about the Australian birds Scot , that would be great .
Down the road I will probably import some birds from the USA myself , I have a thorough understanding in breeding but must learn the art to flying comp Birminghams so Im really just trying to learn the right ways of this wonderfull bird .
I am enjoying every minute of the journey .
Rod
Scott you posted this in another thread
"PS Dave I have an idea, let me have your email and I will introduce you to a whole new world out there. You won't learn anything about color but you sure will on performance."
Scott Im always trying to improve and learn and hope you dont mind me butting in > rodbarker007@bigpond.com
Last Edited by RodB on Jan 27, 2005 11:05 PM
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Bluesman
146 posts
Jan 27, 2005
3:33 PM
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Rod.I am still waiting on an email from Scott.LOL.I too am always trying to learn something.Rollers especially.My wife says I am addicted.She said I spend more time away from her with the pigeons than I did before I retired.LOL.Anything I can learn to make the roll or breed better I will do it.If over a period of time I wind up with one color so be it.Always Roll first.Australia sounds like a place I could live.LOL. David
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warbie
10 posts
Jan 27, 2005
4:22 PM
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O.K. Here we go I am going to keep it simple. Lately every post starts out or ends up obsessing over colour. I say get over it. If you are so pre-occuppied with colour you are losing site of the true goal and that gentlemen is the ROLL ansd only the Roll. The roll is the most important thing since the beginning of Birmingham Rollers. Seems like everytime a subject comes up as of late someone begins obsessing about colour or trashing the NRBC. When you trash the NRBC you aren't just trashing an individual roller fancier but anyone who belongs to it and or volunteers their time to it. I personally could care less about colour, but I am telling you there isn't one of us out there that would pass up a coloured bird that rolled its guts out perfectly. I am sure there are ten or fifteen guys who will respond "Oh I would not take the bird for anything." To this I say horse pucky you are dillusional. It is all about the ROLL baby, quit trashing people for their interests and just appreciate that everyone of us has a little different interest and that is O.K. I personally only care about one thing the roll. If it comes out looking like a peacock and rolls like lightning then by god I sure the heck am not going to cull it. Athough I will be looking for the neighbors peacock ha ha because I have a closed loft. And you know what that is o.k. because it is my loft, my hobby and my time and money. I don't think there is many of us that at one time or another have been suckered. The best thing you can do is learn from it and help educate others. Mongrel as for the guys who you dealt with years ago being roller guys I beg to differ. They were feather merchants who fooled you. And thats o.k. as long as you learned from it and don't do it to someone else who is new. So in closing lay off the NRBC and try some constructive comments we have all heard and heard your feelings on coloured rollers. Roll On!! Cory
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Slobberknocker
49 posts
Jan 27, 2005
4:26 PM
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Well said Cory!! You have earned immediate respect from me!!
Bob
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Mother lode lofts
441 posts
Jan 27, 2005
4:46 PM
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No Corey I would never take such a bird as I have no use for it. Nothing wrong with letting people learn about the orgins of such birds.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 27, 2005 5:17 PM
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Phantom1
67 posts
Jan 27, 2005
4:53 PM
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Scott, thin ice here man. It sounds like you're suggesting that anything but what you, Steve, and a few others have are cross breeds, bred by a dust mite breeder, with the only intention of misleading a newcomer.
Hey - on a separate note, I checked the photo gallery and saw your set up. Nice digs man! I'm jealous! Looks like you're out of the city too.
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Mongrel lofts
62 posts
Jan 27, 2005
4:55 PM
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So in closing lay off the NRBC and try some constructive comments we have all heard and heard your feelings on coloured rollers. Roll On!! Cory
Hi Cory,
I was with you, right up to this point,, what the heck are you talking about.. I'm the one that was asking, what do you guys keep bringing up the NBRC for? YOu must be doing a little cross reading!LOL Your telling the wrong guy to lay off the NBRC..
Cory, your right. I was ripped off by feather merchants.. Good point,, I just don't want new comers to be ripped off the same way I was.. These guys who sold me birds of color as good rolling stock,, Lied,, They weren't.. Your point is well taken, none of the color breeders today, are selling birds based on colors, factors and modifiers.. I'm sure they are selling good rollers, not colors.. to you guys not selling colors,but good rollers. my apology!! Mongrel Loft
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Phantom1
68 posts
Jan 27, 2005
4:57 PM
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Thank you Ken - sincerely!
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Mother lode lofts
442 posts
Jan 27, 2005
5:15 PM
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Eric I thought about it and deleted most of it. But yes I think that what was written is a large driving force here. But at this point if someone can't make up thier own minds then that is thier problem.
Thanks for the compliment on the loft, and no I don'tlive in town and it is a good place to fly here
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warbie
11 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:57 PM
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Oh Sorry Mongrel if it wasn't you constantly trashing NRBC. I could be doing a little cross reading sorry. No hard feelings. Cory
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Bluesman
154 posts
Jan 28, 2005
4:56 AM
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Cory.I am trying to get caught up with everything this morning.Great post man.Where have you been thru all this.LOL
I was the one that kept bringing NBRC into the threads.Not to trash them but to get their take on the whole thing.I didn,t join NBRC for several years because I was told my rollers wern,t Birmingham Rollers.By accident I was invited by Henry Cook to join.This led to several conversations and I was convinced to join.If I am going to belong to a Club I want to know where they stand.The Membership package dosent really say a lot for a Newcomer.
Several have contacted NBRC(including me)and the basic replys have been posted.I accept what they have said and will back them 100%.Never an intent to trash them just know the truth.David
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