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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
A Common Goal......Or Not?
A Common Goal......Or Not?
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Slobberknocker
15 posts
Jan 25, 2005
6:33 AM
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Hi Guys,
I had said that I would not be back to post, but I received an email from Tony that convinced me otherwise.
First, I would like to ask this....Are we not all working toward the same goal? to get the best Rollers we can? If this is true, why is there so much dissention among us? I have done some research over the last couple day and the Roller guys are the ONLY group that I can find with this problem. I say that if you can breed a kit of Rollers in any so-called rare colors and compete with them, my hats off to you. However, those that take on this project are continually ridiculed and basically driven out of competing by those who are so against the idea. Most other breeds embrace the idea of expanding colors/factors and will encourage those who want to take on the challenge.
Just so we clear things up a bit, James Turner did in fact outcross colored birds into his original stock. He bred these colored birds with the best birds in his loft and kept breeding them back to the best. After several generations, he had good stock or he would cull them all. Mr. Turner, as one NBRC officer told me yesterday, "kicked a** when he competed". James Turner knew enough about genetics and the roll to combine them.
I will agree with Scott that there are a lot of people who just breed colored birds and sell them out as perforing stock. I also agree that it is detrimental to the breed. However, it is unfair to say that ALL of those who have rare colored Rollers do this. I 100% agree that newcomers must ask questions before getting into this breed. If they are not comfortable with a particular breeder, then they need to move on to another and ask the same tough questions.
I am not trying to change anyone's way of thinking here. I just thing the stereotypes and labeling must end. However, if we cannot come to some middle ground here, perhaps the "color breeders" should form their own club and Tony should make this site for only true Birmingham Roller WC Competition breeders.
To you Mongrel Lofts, as a Christian I will forgive your statements about me. It is true you know nothing of the bird in question. Besides, if the color of that bird or any other bird on my website upset you so much, why do you go there to look? I do not claim that my birds are Birmingham Rollers anyway. They are listed as Performing Rollers.
I can say that, according to the WC results, Scott has some outstanding Rollers and he should be applauded for that. I know that there are a lot of other guys on here that have great birds as well and I am not afraid to admit that. I just wish the same respect could be shown towards those who choose the challenge of breeding colored birds. It is a sad thing that since we all have the same breed, Rollers, that we are so divided by what should be such a positive thing.
Bob
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RolyPoly
35 posts
Jan 25, 2005
7:10 AM
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We agree wholeheartedly! Another point we are curious about: why is there so much feeling against those who raise pigeons to sell them? All other animals are raised to sell, why not pigeons? Or are we misunderstanding the term feather mechants? Phil and Debbie
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J_Star
157 posts
Jan 25, 2005
8:41 AM
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RolyPoly, It is not against anybody who raises rollers and sells them rather it is against "feather merchants". They claim to have the best of the best and they entice their stock with fancy colors for the new people as you know rare colors appeal to new comers as the majority of them don't know any better. The new owner of those birds usually take the seller word and by the time they settle the birds in and start flying them, they wait and wait for that spectacular roll as they were told. But that roll never shows up and later they find themselves been had. It also refers to the fanciers who sell their cull birds as the best of the best. Being a merchant is a noble thing, but when they represent their products are the best when it is not, then it just ripping off the unexpected. If a fancier develops a good family of rollers through the years and the 90% or better of the offspring shows that, and start selling the offspring for money. Then that is not a feather merchant due to the fact out of so many rollers, you will get the exceptional, the good and some not so good. Then you will breed the excellent birds you got and start from there. The feather merchants will only sell you their crap for good $$$$. Go ahead and search the NET for rollers for sale and soon you will pick up on their sells-pitch. How can anybody pay that big $$ for unproven or unseen birds? Some will, because of their trusting nature.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jan 25, 2005 8:46 AM
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Slobberknocker
16 posts
Jan 25, 2005
8:58 AM
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Jay,
First off, I was told when I wanted to get started in Rollers that it was going to me $300.00 per pair and I was going to be on a two-year waiting list. The guy who told me this is an officer in the NBRC and does not breed color Rollers. How can new people be expected to pay that kind of money for "good" Rollers? The other side of the coin is those who cull mercilessly and never make anything available to anyone.
To address your selling rare colored rollers issue... If rare colors are what people want, don't you think it would be smarter and more benifical to the whole Roller hobby/sport to encourage those with the knowledge of genetics that can breed good birds in the colors rather than just label their birds as "mongrels" or "crossbreeds"? If it will gain new and more fliers in your precious WC competitions, I should think it is a good idea.
Bob
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Jan 25, 2005 8:59 AM
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Bluesman
114 posts
Jan 25, 2005
9:15 AM
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Good point Bob.Glad to see you back.You,Brian & bluebar(where is bluebar) have the genetic learning to shed a lot of light on things.David
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Cliff
26 posts
Jan 25, 2005
10:57 AM
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You're right on target, Bob, and good points Roly Poly! Feather Merchants are by no means limited to those that breed colors. As I posted elsewhere, I was ripped off big time by a guy selling pedigree and 514 Pensom pedigree "pure Pensoms". I believe there are far more rip-offs occurring in the name of "pure blood" than in the name of color. Most color breeders who sell birds for a profit will at least admit that they have emphasized color over performance. Not so for the pedigree con artists. Cliff
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Steve S.
54 posts
Jan 25, 2005
3:28 PM
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Bob, Cliff,
Bob,
No one should be asking a beginner an outrageous price for a pair of rollers.
If they do they are in it for the $$$$$ not the sport or betterment of the hobby or to help anyone out.
Cliff,
You are correct , it is true that there are people out there that just rip people off selling them junk birds.
The best birds are aquired through friendship.
The best will be from guys that want to help you stay in the hobby and progress.
I am not blowing my horn but I have given newbies rollers ,birds from the top winning families out there to guys all over the US that I haven't even met but I check them out to see if they are fly-by-niters or are serious first.
The first thing I do is point them to someone in their area that has good rollers and I know would help them.
If they are short on spinners I then fix them up and tell them to get the mentor I sent them to as to help them and teach them the correct ways.
Later
Steve
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Mother lode lofts
409 posts
Jan 25, 2005
5:31 PM
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Bob I have been pondering this all day and here is my "honest" opinion. first off I would like to say that I am a nobody and have nothing with these birds but I have learned from many, but thank you anyway and I apologize for the hashness of that post,it just hit me wrong.
On your question.. I have to answer a solid "no" to that, I think that many are side tracked, with some it is worrying about what colors that are coming out of the nest and breeding towards such and on the other end of the spectrum you have some that breed towards some long dead birds and worry too much about the pedigrees.
Here is what I have seen about the guys that breed the so called rare color and fly. The one's that do well in the flys have thier bread and butter birds and then they have color as side projects (Turner does the same,or at least used to)Basicly where I see new guys get in trouble with these birds is that they end up with mainly just the prodigy of the color birds but have no producing top self birds to keep the others moving foward , for the most part I don't think that a lot of these birds are at a point of reproducing themselfs if they are good , at least not on a whole which is why you don't see or here of good kits of nothing but the so called rare color birds.
We used to have this same battle with the late Doug Brown only it didn't evolve around the orgins but more on how they stacked up against the others. His thoughts were also basicly the same suggested against breeding the rare color birds together ( Andulutions were the exception) and he suggested in public that new fliers should not start with the so called rare color birds (his words not mine) for those that knew Doug he was very devoted to the color and was very vocal about it.
Generally the guys that breed color that do put up a good kit in the flys (that I have seen) for the most part have none color birds with some so called rare color birds.
Another thing that I have seen is the guys that have some of these color genes floating around in thier familys but pay absoulutly no attention to breeding towards color, and many of these guys do well.
Never have I seen or heard of anyone that "only" has color birds flying good kit's.
What I do see the bulk of is guys breeding towards absoulutly nothing but roll. These are the guys out there taking names and kicking ass on a consistant basis.
To end it, my experiance is that truelly good birds don't come in large number even when there are no other factors that play in. And this one you can take to the bank !!!!
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 25, 2005 5:57 PM
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RodB
34 posts
Jan 25, 2005
5:36 PM
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Nothing at all wrong with selling stock , so long as you are not selling culls and you breed your stock for the right reasons and with Birminghams it should be performance first, your birds should be able to stand on there own merit .
If you dont compete with your birds directly and no one does that has stock directly from you , and then to sell a bird, you pump up the tyres on your birds at the expence of the guys blood that is out there doing it , you are then a feather merchant .
"merchants carnt quote winners so have to bag the ones that are not thier blood and winning "
There is breeders and then there is feeders , the breeders will sell what they have to as you carnt keep them all and they will also have stock that they will not part with at any price , the feeders will sell anything at a price .
The very best stock will not be easy to get close to and to explain why is very hard to put into words so the novice can understand fully the depth of breeding gone into the best familys of these birds .
Basicly if you went out and hunted down some BRs and what you got were quite easy to obtain you can bet you have a ways to go if its the best you seek .
Those real ones will not be easy to obtain , real quality never is , not because when you get there the guy wont let you in , its finding the way to his door and him seeing in you a reflection of himself , is where most fail , its only then are you deemed worthy to own his life's work !
Merchants are everywhere in all areas of life , lifes parasites that will sell thier soul for a price and they are really easy to spot if you have half a brain and look hard enough.
Rod
Last Edited by RodB on Jan 25, 2005 5:42 PM
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RolyPoly
36 posts
Jan 25, 2005
6:56 PM
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What if you have too many pigeons for the size of your loft, and they are all good pigeons and roll well. Is it wrong to put an ad in the paper and sell them for 5.00 each? Just wondering.
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Slobberknocker
25 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:16 AM
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First off, Roly Poly, there is nothing wrong with selling pigeons any thime for any reason. The whole pigeon hobby, game, sport, or whatever you want to call it is buyer beware. Scott has said that many times. The newcomer and potential buyer must ask a lot of hard-hitting, on-the-spot questions. If they do not, then they get what they pay for. I always ask the questions and I always answer the questions to the best of my ability regardless of which end of a sale I am on and regardless of the breed.
Scott, you say your answer is "NO" to my question. I assume you mean the question of whether we all have a common goal or not. I respect that answer and I should have been more clear with the question. what I meant was that, those of us who DO breed for performance all should have a common goal.
Those who breed pretty pigeons for the sake of cashing in on them do not share this goal. Same goes for those who sell a name or pedigreed birds just to make an extra buck. However, evem with that said, there should NEVER be "us" and "them" within the breed let alone the whole hobby.
I admit that I do not know or understand all the ins and outs of WC competition flying. However I do not and will not criticize that which I know nothing about. On the other hand, the competition guys who may not fully understand genetics should respect and not criticize what others are trying to do with their birds.
This will apply to everyone who reads this post. When I was showing Pouters in the big shows a dear friend of mine once told me that you raise these birds all year. At the show, the judge looks at the pigeon for 5 minutes (I know this is longer for Roller competition but bear with me). He said, you have to look at the birds the other 364 days, 23 hours, and 55 minutes. He said, you have to like what you have to look at and feed every day no matter what someone else thinks of the birds. This may be some of the best advice ever given to me by a fellow pigeon man.
For those of you who chase the WC dream, rock on. You are doing what you love and nobody should ever disrespect that. Same goes for those of us who choose to breed birds with "rare" colors. Whether anyone who has Rollers flies in competition or doesn't fly at all shouldn't matter as long as they are happy with their birds. Those who fly cometitively have something to prove. Those who don't...well, don't.
BTW....the same friend I mention above also told me the following. When told by other breeders within his breed club that he had junk and what he needed to do to improve them his response was, "When you start paying my feed bill, then you can start telling me what to do and what is junk. Until then keep your opinions to yourself."
Bob
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Cliff
31 posts
Jan 26, 2005
8:42 AM
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Scott and Bob, Excellent posts!! I think you guys put this whole discussion into proper perspective with your thought and commentary, right here. Cliff
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