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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Birminghams or not Birminghams
Birminghams or not Birminghams
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Mike Di
4 posts
Jan 24, 2005
8:41 AM
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Gentleman,
It seems I opened a can of worms when I asked the question"are all performing rollers Birminghams"? After reading all your posts and doing some in depth reading
on this matter, I have come to some conclusions.
1- Color has nothing to do with what makes a good roller roll.
2- Just because a bird is born in a loft of "birmingham Rollers" in Birmungham England dosn't make it PURE.
3- Because these birds breed so easily and fast it is very difficult to ensure the "PURITY" of any bird to be absolute.
4- If you are lucky enough to have breed birds that fly well, roll deep and fast in unison,return to the loft when that are called you can call them anything you like, you earned it!
5- Who cares what color they are.
thanks
Mike Di
Last Edited by Mike Di on Jan 24, 2005 8:43 AM
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Mother lode lofts
402 posts
Jan 24, 2005
7:52 PM
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Actually Mike they made sure that you and others stayed confused. That is allways the intent. It isn't really all that confusing. Just do your homework off of "this" forum and make up your own mind.
Numer 1 This isnt about color, it is about crossbreeding for color.
Mumber 2 never seen or heard of crossbreeding in England
Number 4 and 5 are correct
Just my opinion here
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 24, 2005 10:40 PM
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J_Star
173 posts
Jan 27, 2005
8:08 PM
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Scott, this stuff confuses the unconfused. It is the best excitement this web site has seen since those bloody eyed keepers debate.
Jay
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Mother lode lofts
446 posts
Jan 27, 2005
9:07 PM
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Jay I'm dizzy also to be honest with you LOL
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Bluesman
152 posts
Jan 28, 2005
4:16 AM
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Scott.The Ernie Stratford crossing of the Parlors with the Birm's was the most recent being done in England.(that I found)There were a couple other times that were mentioned further back in time.I would never try to confuse anyone.Even tho I am in a confused state of mind most of the time.LOL.David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Jan 28, 2005 4:19 AM
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Mother lode lofts
449 posts
Jan 28, 2005
7:39 AM
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Dave how many people havn't crossed a parlor on a Birmingham ? Hell I did it when I was a kid and I have no doubt that he didn't do it. What makes you think that he it through out his family ???? And what would be the purpose ??? And Dave knowing what we know about these birds isn't a rolldown a far step up from a parlor that is a "complete" retard ? I know guys breeding rolldowns to see what happens but it aint nothing but playing around Dave. Dave once again I think you are grasping at straws.
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Phantom1
73 posts
Jan 28, 2005
7:41 AM
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Scott, did you just call a Parlor Tumbler/Roller a retard?
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Bluesman
162 posts
Jan 28, 2005
12:30 PM
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Scott.What I was saying was that Ernie bred a Champion Birmingham Roller thru the cross of a birmingham Roller and a Parlor Tumbler.And the other point was that the Parlor Tumblers have many colors & factors in them.Almond,etc.etc.Crossing has been done since the roll first started being cultivated.Parlors retarded??? Mine aren,t.David
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Steve S.
67 posts
Jan 28, 2005
6:14 PM
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LOL...LOL
Now let me see:
Earnie Stradford bred a Champion Birmingham Roller by breeding a Parlor Roller on a Birmingham Roller...
Yea thats sounds Retarded to me too...LOL
Steve
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Mongrel lofts
67 posts
Jan 28, 2005
7:58 PM
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David,,
I heard about Ernie doing this experiment,, tell us,, how many birds did he breed to get this one good one.. Now tell me, how many guys are breeding birds down from this parlor roller cross in England now?? Take the time to ask the English, what happend to this family, based on a parlor roller experiment.. Ask the Englishmen, if any of the roller men over there, are competing with or breeding from these cross bred parlor rollers?
Hey, I will ask them for you.. I have before, but maybe things have changed over there? Maybe The parlor roller crosses are what they are flying in competition now? I don't know, I will ask and report back on what they have to say,, Mongrel Lofts
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Bluesman
166 posts
Jan 28, 2005
8:19 PM
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Ken.I have no respect for you or Steve.You have both shown your ignorance on here many times.You always tear down what anybody does.What would be proven how many birds were bred to get the champion or who is breeding what now.You still would have something negative to say.
Steve is just as bad.Anybody that pokes fun at someone who has passed on is very low in my book.I have responded my last time to either one of you.If you want to be trouble makers help yourself.May God Bless you both.David
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Mother lode lofts
461 posts
Jan 29, 2005
10:52 AM
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Dave like or dislike these guys, everyone can learn a whole lot from guys like these !!! I wouldn't be so quick to shut them out.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 29, 2005 10:54 AM
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
194 posts
Jan 29, 2005
12:21 PM
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What Came First: The Birmingham Roller or the Roll?
For my own knowledge, I would like to clarify the ongoing “color” discussion so I understand the positions better and can come to a reasonable conclusion of my own as both side bring up interesting points.
COLOR BREEDER POSITION:
What I understand: The breeders, who have “color”, maintain their birds are Birmingham’s whether cross bred or not because of Pensom’s description as to what a BR is. In his buildup to describing the performance of rollers over tumblers he says:
“Any pigeon which cannot turn over at least 10 times in a space of about 4 feet at the maturity of development must be regarded as a common Tumbler. A Roller or spinner, as same is oftened termed, and I think more descriptive, is a far different proposition and same is esteemed according to the distance it will roll and the velocity at which it rotates. Although of the same common stock, the Roller is, to say the least, a cultivated Tumbler”.
He goes on to describe a level of performance, that due to such, a Roller can be called a Birmingham Roller:
“The Birmingham Roller Pigeon”: The true Birmingham roller which turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball”.
Therefore, if a color roller fits this description, it is a Birmingham Roller!?
So it is not a far reach for them to maintain they have color rollers that demonstrate Pensom’s description of the roll, that win NBRC competitions, etc. It is not hard for me to see their point that their “rare color birds” are in fact BR.
However, my question on this is: Did Pensom have this conclusion in mind when he penned those words? Or was it something else he meant? If this is indeed what he meant, then ANY pigeon regardless of how it came to the roll and which rolls to the standard then it is by this definition a BR making the color breeders correct in their conclusion.
CONSERVATIVE POSITION:
What I understand: Once the BR was established as a “breed”, any outcross to another pigeon breed by definition makes it a “mongrel”. No amount of breeding to a BR line is going to make it a BR again. (Especially since so much of the characteristics that makes it “Birmingham” is lost in the out-crossing)
When color breeders promote these pigeons as BR, “conservatives” are correcting what they understand is an inaccurate description of what a Birmingham Roller is, and thereby disagreeing with Pensom’s above quote as to what a BR is??
Also, profiting from newcomers ignorance is abhorrent to these individuals when a mongrelized roller is sold as a Birmingham Roller thereby hurting the sport/hobby in the long run.
MY QUESTIONS:
I know I may have simplified the positions a bit, but do I understand the 2 positions properly? If not please correct where needed. Please keep responses “simple” as these are probably the best way to keep it understandable and probably correct. (“Occam’s Razor”)
Genetically speaking, when is an animal generally considered a breed? Is it a series of pairings that finally produce specific characteristics that are recognized by an officially recognized body of “experts”?
If so, would this same official body recognize an outcross that was brought in to acquire a specific trait and then after a number of breeding to pure blood again would recognize this new specimen as also a member of the same breed?
If this body says YES, then it is of the same breed. If they say NO then it is not. If it is not, then wouldn’t the promoters of this new animal have to have it recognized by an officially recognized body of experts as a new breed with its own unique name and classification?
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Jan 29, 2005 12:25 PM
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Steve S.
70 posts
Jan 29, 2005
12:53 PM
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Tony,
Your conclusion is very correct and easy to understand.
I was hoping someone would disect the posts.
You and Tom Monson should get together to write a book.
You both men that can put words together as to make us understand the point.
My answer to you last question is NO.
If you put anything into a set breed " The Birmingham Roller "that was developed by however many crosses it took to become that set breed then,
I think it is and should be called another breed.
For ex. Color Rollers, Genetic Rollers etc.
Thus as Ron Simpson of the Show Roller fame wants his to be called another breed for example.
Thanks Tony
Also I like the looks of your Birmingham Rollers.
Steve
Last Edited by Steve S. on Jan 29, 2005 12:56 PM
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Mother lode lofts
462 posts
Jan 29, 2005
1:25 PM
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Tony what is trying to be done here ? analize what some Rollerhead wrote that has been gone for nearly 40 years !!!
Ok I'll play, the book is many years of compiled writeings and you will see this is the wording. On top of it it is a book about what ? "the Birmingham Roller" Where in the book do you see crosses either in print or in pictures ? When he wrote the book could he have even invisioned crosses being made into the breed for color, ? Where in the book does it indicate that he was ever anything but a 100 0/0 performance breeder ? Where in the book is his color genetics chapter ?????????????? I can't seem to find it in mine LOL
He brings up color several times as far as discriptions within the breed and how hard and soft colors within the breed to show varying charactoristics with some and how they play into the roll, and how to use them as tools within the breeding program (keeping in mind that they are first class birds used).
He also makes mention that there are many not worthy within the breed that do not meet the standard that he spelled out, forget the colors as a factor and this still holds true today.
I think that this says it all " To perpetuete and maintain the qaulities for which this old and "established breed".
Keeping in mind that we are talking about the breed only and the colors within the breed he wrote this "For any fancier to breed birds of a color and markings to meet his tastes he would naturally have to breed a lot. In fact far more than he could manage. It is possible to breed any color and marking but the ratio of good birds produced would be extreamly small. this is the difference between a successful strain for "ideal" spinning and the persuit of colorful pigeons"
Again this deals with birds that were not crossed for color but for those persueing the colorful birds that the breed allready has to offer. It would be like me trying to breed for Blue Bars, even though they are allready part of my families make up for me to breed for them would be a major set back for me, that is a given.
He also makes mention that some that breed for for the colors isn't a completly bad thing as it keeps the colors alive within the breed. But how would he feel about useing crossing for such ?
Who could honestly say but no doubt he was perforance nut and he was obsessed with the breed, and I think that it would be an easy speculation but still a speculation.
I think that it also important that this book was only "one" mans look into the breed
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Bluesman
172 posts
Jan 29, 2005
1:50 PM
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Tony.It appears as if you have read Bills book.What description did he say a Birmingham Roller was?
Did Pensom write the "roll over backward" etc. etc.phrase or was it written before his time? David
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Phantom1
89 posts
Jan 29, 2005
5:37 PM
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Tony, thanks for stepping in. It's about time as the moderator of this forum. I appreciate your efforts to try and bring an understanding to both sides, however pointless it may be.
You see, it's not really a question of what came first - "The Roller or the Roll". The fact of the matter is, that they exist in the same birds - ROLLERS. So many times, I've seen someone post "If the roll is there, that's all that matters". That is of course, as long it's within the colors they can accept as THE REAL DEAL! Now, call them what you want, because I'm sure you and the band of brothers here will do so. I can't begin to tell you how much it infuriates me that now, only now, you'll try to step in and try to express your unbiased opinion to those given by the regulars and newcomers to your website.
Too many slams, insults, insinuations, and cut-downs have gone un-noticed (including myself - I'm not ashamed). You say this is a forum where people can come and obtain information about the Roller Pigeon. Thus the site name. What this forum is really for is for the elite few to monopolize the posts, express their views and opinions, try to express what they know of the history of the roller and genetics, and try to tie it all back to their point of - if it's not what they know, it's a Mongrel. That's a fact, not an opinion. People mock what they don't understand, and it's up to people like myself to embrace that unkowingness and try to educate. Yet, that remains an impossible mission - on this site.
I'm not going to make this personal with any ONE person reading this. There are some that post here that hold the opinion that their posts are "meant" to be sarcastic and all in fun. Try and read your posts from the view point of someone that wants to learn something. Better yet, put yourself on the other side of the fence. Try to come on here as someone that has birds they love and want to develop to be the best they can be, and be told you have CRAP, MONGRELS, CROSS-BREEDS, and that you've been had by the PIGEON PEDDLER.
I'll stop trying to play on your emotions everyone, as it's apparent you don't have many of them. Except for maybe the love of your own birds.
I apologize for venting so much right here, right now. But Tony, for you to try and step in and make everything okay, you're a minute too late and a dollar short. This is YOUR freakin' site, and you allow such slanderish posts to be made. People are referring to the greats, that are now looking down on us, as "has beens". What the heck does that say about someone coming to your site looking for guidance??? What does that say about those that post here???
Why did you bring the forum down? Too much pressure from people calling you? Too much of the truth? I'd like to know the true reasons behind your actions. This isn't the first time you've taken the forum down. Seems like any time we (color folks) get too close to the truth and back someone into a position where a question can't be answered or aruged objectively, the forum comes down. Then you step in. Why is this?
Eric
Copyright 2005
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Alan Bliven
79 posts
Jan 29, 2005
6:26 PM
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I am not one that's for crossing other breeds into the Birmingham Roller for color or for any other reason. BUT if you study the history of many other breeds of pigeons there's many times when other breeds have been put into the gene pool of that particular breed as it evolves. But as it evolves it remains the same breed. But if enough different kinds of breeds are added but others don't add the new blood, they then become a separate breed from the original. That's why I think Performing Color Rollers should be classed as a separate breed from Birminghams. And of course ALL performing rollers regardless of breed should be allowed in competitions.
If nothing else, it would stop all the arguing and bad feelings. Then we all can live together in peace like what happened between the Show Roller and the Performing Roller.
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Alan
Last Edited by Alan Bliven on Jan 29, 2005 6:35 PM
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Bluesman
177 posts
Jan 29, 2005
6:52 PM
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Alan.Your last sentance of yourlast post is what brought us to this point we are at now; "What is the difference between a Performing Roller and a Birmingham Roller".
If someone can prove the difference then maybe we(the performing color rollers)could make the split.
Without proof we can not split.David
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Alan Bliven
80 posts
Jan 29, 2005
8:09 PM
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Whether it comes as an offical split to the breed or not the split is already here. That's why there's all the fussing. People have divided and taken sides.
I don't see why you couldn't keep all three: Show Rollers, Birminghams and Color Rollers as long as they weren't cross bred. But for me, I don't like Show Rollers. And Color Rollers just don't look natural. Does that mean I'm choosing for color? ;)
But I do like Almonds, is that a color roller? In fact I'm starting an almond strain but they are just a sideline and I won't cross them into my family of Birminghams.
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Alan
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Mongrel lofts
68 posts
Jan 29, 2005
8:21 PM
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Hi Tony,
As one who thinks only for the good of the Birmingham roller breed.. I want to ask you and others a question.. I take it you have read Pensom's book, and have a good understanding of what he thought about the breed of Birmingham roller.. You understand what Bill's thinking on color and roll were?
Let me ask you and others,, What do you think Bill's opinion would be about crossing Ice Pigeon, swallow, oriental frill or any other breed of pigeon onto the Birmingham roller would have been? Do you think when Pensom talked about color, he was talking about Mongrelizing the breed with other show and color breeds of pigeons,, or was he talking about breeding birds within the breed?? I think we both know what the facts are.. Bill would have puked at the thought of crossing breeds and then selling the feathers as many are doing today, as the same breed that Bill brought to this country... Bill Pensom would be sickened at the cross breeding of the Birmingham rollers today!!
Gentleman,, your new cross bred Rare colored birds are a new breed,, not the one Bill Pensom would have called Birmingham roll and the one he brought to this country! You Now have a new crossed bred roller,, Named by us Birmingham roller breeders the Rare colored rollers.. for you consideration,, Mongrel Lofts
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Phantom1
91 posts
Jan 29, 2005
8:44 PM
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Ken, those of us making our side known DO NOT CROSS OTHER BREEDS INTO THE ROLLER!!! I don't know to what extent I have to repeat this. You've mentioned ICE upting times. That must be something that you have had contact with, or gotten burned by. No, ICE does not occur in the roller breed naturally. Reduced, however is one such color that did originate from the ROLLER. I do not practice the art (if it can be called that) of crossing other breeds into the roller, rather I do intend to work with the colors that are already in existence - naturally - within the roller breed. Just a point of clarification.
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Mongrel lofts
69 posts
Jan 29, 2005
9:39 PM
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Phantom,
Once again, I must direct you to the NBRC tapes. There you will see where I get Ice Pigeon, starling and many other cross breedings to rollers for Modifiers and factors from..You may not be making the crosses of other breeds,, but others that you get birds down from,, are!! Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel lofts on Jan 29, 2005 9:41 PM
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Phantom1
92 posts
Jan 29, 2005
10:07 PM
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Ken, I don't have Ice, Toy Stencil, Oriental Frill Laced rollers. To be honest, I haven't ever seen them on a roller. Not sure I'd want to. I think they look just fine on the breeds they're unique to LOL!
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
380 posts
Jan 29, 2005
11:22 PM
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Webster's Desk Dictionary of the English Language defines a breed as "a homogeneous grouping of animals within a species, developed by humans."
Oxford English Dictionary says a breed is "a line of descendants perpetuating particular hereditary qualities."
Wikipedia states--A BREED IS A GROUP OF ANIMALS THAT HAS BEEN SELECTED BY MAN TO POSSESS A UNIFORM APPEARANCE THAT IS INHERETABLE AND DISTINGUISHES IT FROM OTHER GROUPS OF ANIMALS WITHIN THE SAME SPECIES.
Webster's Dictionary defines "purebred"--bred from members of a recognized breed, strain, or kind without admixture of other blood over many generations.
Gentlemen, the underlying of this debate is not whether a roller of color which at one point was donated by a bird from another breed, is in fact a Birmingham Roller. The loose definition that Americans have embraced was coined by the one person (and most likely his colleagues) who, simply because he brought better rollers to this country and spoke with a tongue of insight that seemed and was far above the common fancier's ability to comprehend, determined that the classification of a Birmingham Roller must exhibit a specific performance quality, and if that quality was not met, it should not be considered as such. Therefore, if a roller bred to perform to this standard actually does perform to this standard, it can be considered a Birmingham Rollers simply because the basis for the Breed is solely performance, THAT IS assuming of course you subscribe to the theories of one man and his ideals which were learned in the lofts where this trait was desired and developed. Pensom did not create the Birmingham Roller, he only brought the blood of the strains of the birds the cultivators of this performance to this country, then published they have to perform to a standard to be considered a BR. I always get a kick out of Pensom said this or Pensom said that. I respect the man for his abilities and his cultivation of performance we might not have known if it weren't for his efforts, but he was not the creator of this breed, only one man disclosing his opinion about what a Birmingham Roller is suppose to be. Yet we treat it as Gospel. The gene pool was selected in a variety of ways, and Pensom had his ways, and genetic material from a variety of lofts. This debate is without question, not a whether or not a roller with an unpure background is a Birmingham Roller, but whether those rollers are PUREBREDS. Purebred is a definition (stated above) which is a form of a breeding practice, a closed door breeding situation where only the select genetic inheritance is allowed, and secured over many generations. Notice the definition..MANY GENERATIONS. How many is many? When does many become confirmed? When the breeder says so?If the reproduction traits of the generations are all similar, at what point does it become a "breed". Well according to the sole standard of what a Birmingham Roller is..the moment the generations can "perpetuate particular hereditary qualities". That being the desired performance. This is not a debate over classification, this is an entrenched debate over whether or not a roller is a Pensom Roller, not a Birmingham Roller. At one point or another I would have hoped someone would have figured this out. Until the standard for a Birmingham Roller includes descript genetic inheritance qualities beyond performance and must include a pedigree void of any outcrossed genetic material, the flimsy current standard warrants the legitimacy of a roller which performs to the only set standard accepted. Purebred or Breed? Paper or Performance? Just something to consider.
Brian.
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
195 posts
Jan 29, 2005
11:56 PM
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Hello Scott, your points are where I am driving at. For starters, from what I read on the posts, color/performance breeders seem to use Pensom’s collected writings as their standard to judge what they are doing and coming to the conclusion that it is alright based on the famous “quote” that he uses that was made by some one else but that he refers to.
I personally believe that Pensom did not intend for those words to be used in the way they are by these well meaning breeders. I think that it is more likely that he was talking about the breed of BR and that within that group of birds; only the BEST deserve the name BR as they best represent the ideal. I think he was just making a point. No more, no less.
As I refer in my publication “How To Breed Better Rollers”, the most important Primary Trait a BR needs to demonstrate is the “ROLL”. Without this as the standard to start with and maintain to the same degree throughout all breeding selections, a color breeder is violating Primary Trait #1: breed for ROLL first.
I would not attempt to breed for color, although for several years I have been tempted to develop blue bars out of the Homer Corderre leg of my family of Ruby Rollers as it pops up a couple times a year and they do take a little longer to come into the roll. (but when they do it is nice)
If I did breed to get the bluebar, I have the sense that I would reduce the roll and have to add it back any way, so I would be back to square one with that project. So what would be the point?
I use Pensom in the above inquiry as it is the standard by which color/performance breeders seem to use to justify their line of thinking. I understand why, as Pensom is viewed as THE authority above all others. Reasonable or not is beside the point.
I think they are entitled to their view regardless if the meaning Pensom intended is taken out of context. By reasonable discourse and proper articles this website can serve to inform those who may not be aware of the controversy surrounding this debate and at least let them know that “color/performance” rollers are not BR.
By the same token, they are entitled to group together and establish standards for a new breed of rollers and seek to have it recognized by a governing body and determine a new name for this color roller.
The color/performance breeders that see my point and at least acknowledge some or all that I am saying may be true can easily start a movement/club to get things started.
I hope I am not stepping out on a limb by saying I for one would be willing to host that website and use it to assist in promoting this new color/performing roller and distinguish it from the Birmingham Roller. If there are any takers let me know.
I believe there is sufficient room to have Birmingham Rollers and Color/Performance Rollers share the same skys and go at it at the World Cup.
Remember the old AFL (professional football)? How originally it was ridiculed as not being good enough for the NFL? Well guess what? Over the years they have proven themselves worthy and have combined with the NFL to form one league which has 2 conferences and vie once a year at the SuperBowl to see which conference has the better team.
The "ridiculed" AFC has won its share of them. FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Jan 30, 2005 12:02 AM
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
196 posts
Jan 30, 2005
12:13 AM
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Eric, my only "mistake" was hoping for men to act like men. There have been other posts where tempers got heated and things worked out without me stepping in.
Much of the other things you said in your post are either assumptions on your part which are not true or I care to not address them publicy on this forum.
I am happy to discuss them if you like. My toll free telephone number is 1-800-498-2043. If I am not in to take your call, leave me a message and I will be happy to return your call and discuss your concerns. FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
197 posts
Jan 30, 2005
12:26 AM
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Mongrel Lofts, I think perhaps you misinterpret what I am saying. In order to maintain the best aspect of the "roll", NEVER use color as a factor in choosing pairs, NEVER bring in color from another breed.
Like Scott is saying with above post, Pensom is one man expressing his informed opinion as to the direction he believed was best for the ideal BR.
Some competent breeders share his views and others desire to move beyond what he had to say while tipping their hat to him as it were.
It is not my intention to upset others with infammatory and dogmatic statements or words like calling someones birds mongrels or whatever.
I don't have to. Any intellectually honest person will do some research and can come to their own conclusions.
I know we agree on more than you realize.
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Jan 30, 2005 12:26 AM
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
198 posts
Jan 30, 2005
12:28 AM
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David, we both already know the answer to that...
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Bluesman
179 posts
Jan 30, 2005
2:31 AM
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Tony.Yes;You and I know the answer but it seems no on else does.And by your last post I am wondering if you do?
What you are saying (I think)is there is 2 seperate breeds? The color roller and the BR.Forget Pensom and go on back before his time.
I think Brian posted something like the debate was weither they were purbred or not.
I think what we the ones who raise color rollers are trying to say is that we are not talking about Pure families but that the Performing Rollers are the same as Birmingam Rollers.
No we(color rollers) left Pensom a long time ago.I think he was a great roller man and done more to get the roller movement going than any man ever will.However there were great roller before him.There have/is great roller men after him.
Pensom is referred to alot.Because he is well known from generation to generation.
No one has ever answered Why he never competed in Competition?
His word is not gospel the same as nobody else's word is gospel.
I have said this many times before.The crossing of breeds were done from the time the roll was first cultivated.The crossing of breeds are still being done as they always have been.If the roll is there and meets the standard WHICH WAS SET BEFORE PENSOM (all Pensom done was quote it) then it is a BR.
Instead of splitting Breeds why don't NBRC call their club the Color Performing Roller and the Birmingham Roller Club?
You have to be a member of this club to compete in their flys right? David
P.S.Brian.I forgot to commend you on a well written post.Very knowledgable.Excellent.
Last Edited by Bluesman on Jan 30, 2005 2:41 AM
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Mother lode lofts
466 posts
Jan 30, 2005
6:04 AM
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Dave you asked why no one ever answered why Pensom never competed , I anwered that in another post but it was easily lost in all that other garbage. He did compete in England, but from what I understand not here. And in some of his writeings he tells is thoughts on it.
At that time they were flying by "Competition Tumbler" rules, which basicly evolved around "turn" scoreing. There were no qaulity standards nor min depth standard.
And the true Birmingham rollers flown under such rules could not compete unless the birds were bred towards what was better suited for those type of rules which would mean going backwards for the breed. In fact he even wrote that under those type of rules the "Birmingham Roller" would become ruined. And no doubt he was correct as short frequent kits would no doubt rule the day under such rules.
The rules flown by today were designed to score the Birmingham roller and competition tumbers wouldn't even score under such.
There is a standard for min depth and qaulity must meet the judges standard. Qaulity and depth is awarded by how deep and how high of qaulity and generally those that have the highest of such are the ones at the top of the sheets.
example.... min depth is ten ft, that is a 1.0 which is the lowest multiplier as they go from 1.0- 2.0 You won't see 1.0s winning anything.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 30, 2005 6:04 AM
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
200 posts
Jan 30, 2005
6:15 AM
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David:
"Tony.Yes;You and I know the answer but it seems no on else does. And by your last post I am wondering if you do"?
It is documented in our Articles section at this URL:
http://www.roller-pigeon.com/articles/article/862632/7114.htm
For those that want to know, copy and paste it into your URL bar. FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Jan 30, 2005 6:34 AM
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Cliff
44 posts
Jan 31, 2005
12:59 PM
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Great post, as always, Brian, and it goes to the heart of the science of this debate, rather than the emotion that is the basis for most of the discussion. As you said, the issue is not whether the birds with color modifiers should be called a different breed, but whether the family of birds the purists rally behind are really purebreeds. Based on the definition of a breed (without the admixture of other blood over many generations) and what we know, they are most likely not. If we accept the purists notion that it is, then we must accept that there are dozens of "sub-breeds" under the birmingham roller name. There is likely no specific genetic code for the family of the purists, nor "specific and unique descriptive inferitance qualities that differentiate the various strains and families." Because of the genetic variability of Rollers, we could place a dozen side-by-side and not be able to distinguish them. The genetic variability includes many breed of pigeons (Dutch Tumblers, Oriental Rollers, Parlors, and who knows what else?) and multiple families and lofts. The habits and experiments of these old breeders is unknown and open to conjecture.
Birds with color modifiers do not in themselves qualify as a separate breed because they do not possesse a "specific uniform appearance that distinguishes them from other groups of animals within ther groups." Again, I would challenge that we could line up dozens from within and without the family and not be able to differentiate them. The mere presence of a different color variation does not, in itself, qualify in the creation of another breed, simply based on the color. Color variation is accepted within the breeds of most animals. Cliff
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Mother lode lofts
475 posts
Jan 31, 2005
4:41 PM
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Cliff to be honest with you I'm pretty burnt on this topic but it is kind of ironic that those that try to mongralize the breed on a whole fly birds from a guy that went as far as making a tape on crossing other breeds into the "Birmingham Roller" for different colors.
But hey ! if you think that down breeding to such an extream made them better , I wish you luck and hope you do well with them !!!
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 31, 2005 4:45 PM
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highroller
84 posts
Jan 31, 2005
5:11 PM
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I don't think anyone claims or believes that crossing for colors made them better. In fact the F1s probably didn't roll at all. But to bring the roll back and also keep the color is evidence of a lot of hard work and my hat is off to those who can accomplish it.
Dan
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