Bluesman
75 posts
Jan 22, 2005
4:29 AM
|
What is the difference in what everyone here in the U.S. calls Birmingham Rollers and what is coming out of England now? Thanks,David
|
Steve S.
41 posts
Jan 22, 2005
6:56 AM
|
David,
From the first imports of which William Hyla Pensom sent over here before he moved to California from the lofts of
Skidmore, Payne, and Harry Belfield.
These were from the old dark country of England near Birmingham.
Around that area they were called the Birmingham roller.
I talk to quite a few Brits now about the rollers there and they say some carry the old Dark Country blood but most over there are come down from other breeders not from the Birminghams.
Most fanciers breed O. D. Harris or Bob Brown birds over in the UK.
Later
Steve
|
Bluesman
76 posts
Jan 22, 2005
7:02 AM
|
Steve.According to what I have been told they are all Birmingham Rollers just different strains.True or False? David
|
Steve S.
42 posts
Jan 22, 2005
7:10 AM
|
David,
I will get with some guys over there like Dave Moseley,Pete Handy,Morrris Hole and Barry Schackelton and
see what they have to say.
I'll post it later.
Steve
|
Bluesman
77 posts
Jan 22, 2005
7:11 AM
|
Thanks Steve.
|
Mother lode lofts
384 posts
Jan 22, 2005
8:20 AM
|
Yes Dave they call them BirmingHam Rollers also, and they call a Tipler a Tipler LOL. Many breeds of pigeons are are named after thier geograghic locations of orgins.
Dave Moseley stayed with me a week last year. I might add that Pensom is not held in high regard back there at all. I don't think that there is really a reason other than he's just an Englishman that moved to the U.S.A.
|
Bluesman
78 posts
Jan 22, 2005
8:49 AM
|
That is what I had heard also.But I am glad he brought the rollers to the U.S.
My next question is When is a roller not called a Birmingham Roller? Thanks,David
|
nicksiders
93 posts
Jan 22, 2005
9:39 AM
|
A roller is not called a Birmingham Roller when it doesn't roll...................LOL
|
Bluesman
79 posts
Jan 22, 2005
11:06 AM
|
Good Answer Nick.LOL
Scott.I know you have judged a lot of rollers.Have you ever judged or seen any kits from England?What I am seeing in rollers coming out of England has several colored birds in them.Including Opal & Milky.I am asking this NOT to debate the color issue thing but weither I can honestly say my birds are Birmingham Rollers.I was always under the impression that they had to come from Birmingham, England.I always called my rollers Performing Rollers for that reason.When Mike asked the question if Performing Rollers were the same as Birmingham Rollers the answer was NO. O.K. No Biggy.But the reason given just didn,t cut it for me.This past year I have done a lot of research on the rollers and find out that rollers from all over the world are being called Birmingham Rollers and being flown in the Major Flys as Birmingham Rollers.I also find out that the Birmingham Roller is a Breed and everything else that rolls to the Standard is a Strain from the Birmingham Roller.Here comes these colors,factors & modifiers out of England being called Birmingham Rollers but they are not being accepted as such.Being called Mongrels etc.If they are being flown in the World Cup and winning why aren't they being accepted in the U.S as Birmingham's? Thanks,David
|
Mother lode lofts
387 posts
Jan 22, 2005
12:06 PM
|
Opal and Milky ? I have had a whole lot of pictures e-mailed to me from guys over there and havn't seen this.
What lofts other did you see this from Dave ? You are talking actual English lofts and not just lofts that have had these birds filtered through,correct ?
No I have not been over there to judge Dave but I was asked last year. I have judged and seen more recent imports here if that was your question but never seen the opals or Milkys out of them and I know some of the guys that had imprted them in.
Dave I certainly don't have answers to all of your questions but only speculation and stuff that I have been told by friends over there. as far as the Birmingham Roller in other parts of the world they were imports just as they were here. South Africa are imports from England mainly although some did make a trip to the states and snag up some birds from Jerry Higgens and a few others including Monty Nieble but from what I have seen they seem to be hot on the English imports. Australia were English imports along with birds from Nieble and John Wiens out of B.C. Canada in the more recent years. The guys in Holland, and Denmark were also English imports, Heine Beiker from Holland told me that Germany also had imports. Who knows where else that the imports landed but those are the ones within the realm of the World Cup.
Most the guys in England fy birds with a lot of white such as badges,oddsides,saddles and the like,lots of white flight stuff. And they really don't care much for the slf blues I am assuming for the same reason that I don't care for white flytes and that is sky background. Put a white flyted bird under an overcast sky and it can appear that they look like smoke. Put them under a crisp blue sky and they normally look like a different bird. A blue check has just the opposite affect, they allways look best under blue sky. When a bird is on it will look good under any sky though,just looks better under others though.
They pretty much seem to be a very hardcore bunch that breed only toward performance so if something did mutate out the guys that I know would'nt breed towards it for the sake of color and crossing another bird for such things they can't even comprehend .
Their history is long when it comes to performance birds and not only with the Birmingham. Here's a question, if an Oriental Roller is able to wrap it up like a first class Birmingham does that make that breed a Birmingham Roller also ?
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 22, 2005 12:48 PM
|
Bluesman
80 posts
Jan 22, 2005
1:05 PM
|
Scott.The Milky I am sure came in George Mason Imports.I know because I have them.You could look at pics of the parents all day and never see it.However 2 of them carried the Milky Factor and when mated together there it was.Yes they were kept pure after being Imported.Barless is another factor that can be carried for years and never come out untill it is mated with another Barless.So can I call the Milky birds Birmingham or are they Mongrels?
The answer to your question about the Oriential Roller.YES.If it could wrap into the roll(which they can't I am told)then it wouldn,t be an Oriental.According to Pensom only one type of Roller can be called the Birmingham Roller.And that was the only Standard set forth when the Breed was recoginized and is still the only Standard.Also Pensom said that VERY few birds were worthy of being called Birmingham Rollers.So that leaves me with the same question.Are my rollers Birmingham Rollers or did I waste 25.00 in joining the NBRC?I don,t want to belong to the Modena Club & raise Homers.Scott; I am asking you because I know that at least you will reply.Not trying to put you on a hot seat so to speak.Thanks,David
|
RodB
27 posts
Jan 22, 2005
2:26 PM
|
The Black Country Englishmen who developed the true Birminham Rollers all those years ago also had another interest in which they developed the animal to the same degree as the birds , their fighting dogs .
They called them Bulldogs at the time and the term is still used today , the first pitdogs to come to the USA where in the 1800s they were pure old family just like their birds .
The Americans renamed them American Pit Bull Terriers in the 1930s , you had the pureist who fought and bred them for performance and you had another lot who wanted to show the breed so they developed there dogs to a show standard and renamed and registererd there dogs American Staffordshire Terriers , same pure blood just one bred for go the other bred for show .
Staffordshire Bull Terrier , AM Staff , American Pit Bull are all one and the same as far as blood goes , all originated from the same source and were not crossed to another bred of dog although storys of terrier crosses have always been spoken , but many historians believe they were not crossed just selectivly bred along different lines within the same breed .
Same blood but such different animals and if you ever step over the wall into a pure family bulldog it is here you will really see what the difference is .
The history of the Pit dog is the same as that of the Birmingham Roller , they were created by the same people and the breeding methods were running in pararel and they bred thier Rollers and Bulldogs solely focused on one trait , performance !
So Bluesman you ask do you have Birmingham Rollers , in blood , probably yes you do , but true ones are really only defined by what they do in the air , just like the AM Staff and the Bulldog its the performance that separates them .
Birmingham Roller is only a name the true essence of the name is all about performance , and just like the dog fights , you can bring any breed you like so long as the weight is the same , but they only bring Bulldogs because nothing can beat them !
Open competetion is where the true Birmingham Roller will shine , and with the World Cup gaining momentum the best is yet to come , the Birmingham Roller is still evolving and will continue to improve in certain circles , the World Cup is the best thing to ever happen to the breed in my view , nothing brings the best and worst out of people like competition does , the end result will mean more rubbish out there because of the sheer number bred by the masses but the best breeders will be producing some awesome Rollers .
Rod
|
Bluesman
81 posts
Jan 22, 2005
2:39 PM
|
Rod.So what your saying is my birds are pure in blood and even tho they roll according to the standard they are not Birminghams because I don,t compete? David
|
Mother lode lofts
389 posts
Jan 22, 2005
2:53 PM
|
Thats interesting Dave. Of course these birds that you have there are wearing Mason Bands and were bred in his loft, correct ? That is an interesting context that you have on the Pensoms performance standard.
Dave this is just stuff that you are going to have to figure out for yourself although I think that you allready have. Do what you enjoy !! That is the bottom line.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 22, 2005 3:08 PM
|
Steve S.
43 posts
Jan 22, 2005
5:49 PM
|
David,
There a 2 men that compete with George Masons birds and raise them and have been a few times to stay and see George Mason in England.
They will tell you what the make up and if they have the factors you talk about.
They are in the NBRC directory.
they are Ellis McDonald from Alabama and Rick Shoneing from Montana.
Steve
|
Mongrel lofts
44 posts
Jan 23, 2005
6:16 AM
|
Bluesman,
George Mason is a friend of mine and I have never seen a Milky or any other cross bred color or factor in his birds.. Let me ask you this, cause this happens all the time! Do you have birds directly from George Mason, or did you get some birds on the net or from a friend that has some Mason birds, but also breeds Mongrel colored rollers? Often, guys get some pure Birmingham rollers, throw them in the loft with their Mongrels, breed some young and then claim the Birmingham's are throwing the same Mongrel colors as their own birds. Why, because they are being crossed by the Mongrel birds, and serves as a benefit to claim the Birmingham already has these color factors and patterns.. More of the smoke screen..
SO Dave, tell us honestly, did the guy you got these Mason birds from, Or Did you already have milky and barless birds in the lofts and on the place, before he got the Mason Blood???
Mongrel Lofts
|
Bluesman
89 posts
Jan 23, 2005
12:52 PM
|
The birds from George Mason are sure active birds.My oldest bird band # MRCP-AO 800-89 is a Red Check Cock and is still going strong.He sure don,t act his age.I am really impressed with him.Thought it was worth mentioning.David
|
Phantom1
25 posts
Jan 23, 2005
2:03 PM
|
Hey Scott, I just read a response you had posted here. In all respect for what you do with your family and the direction you are taking it, I found a commonality that you and - well really anyone else - shares. You mentioned that the English breeders tend to keep a lot of "white" in their birds, and just the opposite, you do not. You, just like myself, have chosen to breed toward a certain color/pattern. Aside from having quality first, which is above all a necessity, you chose to breed and fly self birds. You mentioned that you want the sky as the background, and not have the birds look smokey. In other words, you like to have a defined object in the sky to observe and work with that. If a breeder has quality stock and moves that forward - yet breeds for the color(s) he or she wants to see fly - I don't see what the controversy is. That is assuming the quality is there in the stock. Once again, this is not about who's doing the better job or who's right or who's wrong. You ARE doing the roller justice and the hobby as well. But I think we've just established some common ground - admittedly or not.
Talk to you soon,
Eric
|
Mother lode lofts
393 posts
Jan 23, 2005
7:21 PM
|
Eric no I don't breed towards any thing but roll. The charactoristics of this family is where it is due to following The Roll and there is nothing else that factors in. I don't get white flyte birds ,never, once in a while I might get a mix flyte that has one or two white flytes but that is about it. Now if I did get them and culled them only due to being white flighted then you might have a point (sort of) but it still would'nt be compareing apples to oranges. Eric the fact is if I had a pair that were throwing white flights that were producing me the goods you could bet your first born that I would follow that roll !!!!!!!!
|
Phantom1
27 posts
Jan 23, 2005
8:30 PM
|
Fair enough Scott. The underlying point I had tried to make was that your family of birds doesn't consistently produce offspring with white flights. The irony is that it could be because of years of breeding away from it. You don't neccesarily breed away from it though. You'd take the roll over a 24 carot roller, which I grasp the concept of. The comparison I'm making is that for someone to start with good stock and move forward with breeding toward a certain color/pattern isn't altogether bad - IF AND ONLY IF - they have the blood there to begin with and know how to move the ROLL forward. Whether or not that be for competition or backyard enjoyment.
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
366 posts
Jan 23, 2005
11:01 PM
|
Eric, if someone was to start with good, proven stock birds, the potential is there for them to be able to reproduce like in regards to performance. As you said, they have to now how to get er done! Good stock birds in Joe Blow's hands don't mean crap if they don't know how to breed and manage them correctly. The dividing line in the matings, which is, how a person progresses or develops a family. If a person, even with good stock in his loft, makes his mating choices based on guidelines of potential patterns or colors, he or she is not making the potentially optimum mating such as mating his best roller to his best roller, etc. When working with dominants such as indigo or opal, the gap closes quite a bit. If a person wants more andalusians, he has to mate an andalusian to a black self. But if his best stock bird is a red check, most wouldn't consider that mating because it doesn't correspond with the intended reproduction of indigo spread blue. Therefore he must substitute a black, which may or may not be of lesser quality, only because of the color reproduction potential. Dominant Opal which is quite popular in many roller circles gives a bit more latitude because the expression varies and a person could mate best to best, regardless of base color, as long as one was D.O. Where a lot of people draw the line is when a person must make a mating such as with recessives or sex linked colors. For example, if you have a Milky Spread Blue cock that you got along with the good stock you purchased or started with, the optimum mating colorwise for that cock bird is a black hen. Now, performance wise, you may not have a black hen in the group you would consider stock worthy, but she might be decent none the less. You have to make that choice, based on color association..you want hens expressing and cocks carrying the milky factor. The subsquent matings will usually be quite similar, for reproduction of that color such as a daughter back on the father. The whole focus of such matings is about the potential for reproduction of the color or marking of choice, though it might be intended to be performance based at the same time, the latter ends up suffering because the sole purpose of the mating wasn't best to best, or at least the general feeling you were mating best to best. The same can be said with patterns such as barless as was discussed in the above posts. Having birds that carry it and breeding for it are two different things. If you want more, you make your mating selection based on birds which carry it. If most or all your birds carry it, hey no big deal as you can mate for performance and get the pattern treat in the end too. I still remember seeing barless rollers when I was a kid, don't see to many anymore though.
With a scenario such as you and Scott were discussing, the results he has are simple. The birds he got were X, Y or Z colored, thus, they produce X, Y or Z colored. Excluding the topic of color balanced matings, the resulting offspring of a loft where only a limited color or marking is available in a stock pen, the results of these matings will generally be in line with what you see in the stock pen. I often have my show pigeon friends over and when they look into my roller lofts they gasp at the matings. They can't believe I have a red bar mated to a tort or a spread ash red mated to a R/R white flight. It just doesn't jive with the principals of color reproduction and perfection outside of the performance world. I have to tell them that over there in the show lofts, color and markings are everything and basis for most of those matings along with other things I don't need to go into. But over here with the rollers the matings are about performance and their association with one another from a family standpoint. Basically best to best, offspring of best back to best or performance balanced matings such as deep and sketchy to medium and big hearted. In this loft, I consider all these rollers one color. I think in many lofts around the world and in many whom post here, the same can be said, which is why some folks take a stand and proclaim foul when the general topic of breeding color-based performance rollers comes up. I do have one small luxury, well actually two. The first is I do still have a few of my andalusians which came from Randy Gibson and as you know, if you want more, you have to have blacks. Well most of my birds are blacks so working with this family of andalusians and blacks has been very easy as the matings are made based on performance and not color, but the results are either black or andalusian without having worry about it. When folks are over and watching my birds fly, they always comment about some of the blacks. When I tell them about this small niche family that is based on one side by a proven family of birds which a few happen to be andalusian in color, the ones who get turned off or make an ill comment about it...leads me to my second luxury. I can just tell them to go pound sand because they don't feed my birds and if they don't like them..there's the door pal, don't let it hit you in the ass on the way out! LOL.
Brian.
|
Phantom1
28 posts
Jan 24, 2005
8:43 AM
|
Brian, Good post! And well put! Sounds like we're more on the same page with things than I thought we ever were. I'll draw upon my family of barless for example. They are what they are - barless. In breeding them, all I have to have is barless. However, since I'm continuously improving their quality, mating barless to barless over and over again, isn't going to improve their performance. Soooo, I have to mate to better stock. Granted....all the offspring continues to carry barless. However, if all I ever bred them for was to reproduce barless, I wouldn't be forwarding this hobby or the birds one little bit. But the bottom line is I'm developing a family that will reproduce itself without me having to constantly worry with color - rather I have the luxery of breeding for quality - and the colors and patterns just happen to already be there.
Oh, if you ever have some Andalusions to part with, give me a hollar. I'd like to get some in the future.
Take care!
Eric
|
Mother lode lofts
403 posts
Jan 24, 2005
8:29 PM
|
Eric that is if the goods are allready there. Or if they are how buried is it ? The only to bring it out is by inbreeding if it's there. Will they stand up to inbreeding ?
|
Phantom1
34 posts
Jan 25, 2005
11:10 AM
|
Will the barless stand up to inbreeding? They should. It's just a pattern on a color (blues and mealys). Is not a good idea to introduce better birds into the family to draw off good qualities in other birds, then develop your own family? Isn't that what everyone really has today? I family that was pieced together and then concentrated on for qualities and culled hard against for faults?
|
Mother lode lofts
408 posts
Jan 25, 2005
4:42 PM
|
Eric the questions were not asked because they were barless, they could have been blue checker or grizzle and I would have asked the same questions.
|
Phantom1
37 posts
Jan 26, 2005
8:14 AM
|
Scott, I took it in the context of Barless being the weakest of the color patterns - Could it stand up to inbreeding. I think anything can stand up to inbreeding if it's done properly.
|
