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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
PERFORMING ROLLERS
PERFORMING ROLLERS
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Mike Di
1 post
Jan 20, 2005
12:22 PM
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HI EVERYONE., I AM NEW TO THIS SO PLEASE BEAR WITH ME. I WAS AT THE NPA NATIONALS IN LANCASTER LAST WEEK AND HAD A GREAT TIME. I MET SOME VERY NICE PEOPLE THERE, I AM INTERESTED IN BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS AND AT THE SHOW I ONLY SAW "PERFORMING ROLLERS. SOMEONE TOLD ME THAT ALL PERFORMING ROLLERS ARE BIRMINGHAMS, ARE THEY?
Last Edited by Mike Di on Jan 20, 2005 12:23 PM
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Bill
11 posts
Jan 20, 2005
6:00 PM
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Hello! this all depends on what you are looking for. At shows the rollers are not the same as the guys who fly competition flying. Show birds are bred for large body type, feather, color ect. The flying type of birmingham rollers are found in someones back yard who flys them regularly. Those who show rollers have most likely lost the best quality that makes a birmingham roller. Some will say their birds can roll, but I would never buy a bird from a show guy unless I saw it perform, which is good for the flying type also. In fact I would not want a bird from the show type anyway, There is too many guys around with good flying rollers to waste time on birds that were bred for show. Do you want to fly them in your yard and enjoy them. These birds want to fly, they are a flying breed. If you just want some pigeons in a cage to look at, then you will want the show pen type or fantails and the like. There are several people here at this message board who can direct you or sell some great flying type. What are you looking for? Bill
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BULLFROG
25 posts
Jan 20, 2005
6:41 PM
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hello mike if you are looking for a bird that will perform and look nice also i would like to suggest the turner line of rollers. i have some that are starting to spin very nice and i plan on competing with them this year they also have the added benifit of being one of the most colorful lines i have seen. please as you get into the rollers dont belive what you here about color birds not performing. i am also new to this sport but i have some qualmonds and dilutes and opals that spin as well or better than some of my blue checks!! if you are interested in the turner line i would be happy to direct you to two fellows i deal with they are a fountian of knowledge and have in my opinion great birds. i wont put there name here out of respect for the owner of the site but if you email me i would be happy to share their info with you. most of all decide what you want and go with it. this forum is one of the most informitive source i have found. good choice chris
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Bill
12 posts
Jan 20, 2005
6:57 PM
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Hello again, I re-read your question about performing birminham rollers. Are they all birmingham rollers? The Roller pigeon is split in this country into two groups. One who raises show birmingham rollers, that are not used to fly in groups of 11 to 20 birds for competitions, they show the birds at shows and have ribbons in their house to show along with their birds.
The other type of performing birmingham rollers are bred for flying in kits ( groups ) and they are bred for flying and rolling in kit performance. Some guys fly them for thier own pleasure and many fly them in competitons, but the flying types pretty much stay away from the shows and have ribbons or trophies because their birds performed great in the air and won a local, national or internation competitions. Does this help out. Both types have a variety of color, but only the flying type is worth flying. Bill
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Mongrel lofts
40 posts
Jan 20, 2005
8:08 PM
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Hi Mike,
The honest answer is no, not all rollers are Birmingham rollers.. Many birds today are sold as Birmingham rollers, and they are not even pure rollers, but cross bred rollers to other breeds of pigeons for factors, colors and patterns.. Yea, some of them roll now, but if inbred and line bred like a good family of Birmingham's must be, the Mongrel genetics will show them selves...
If you want Birmingham rollers Mike, take the time to find out what colors, factors and patterns the Birmingham rollers really came in.. The original imports are recorded.. If you go to buy birds from someone, ask them if they know whether or not their birds have been crossed to other breeds for pretty colors, patterns and factors or not?? Don't stop there, ask Not only have they been crossed by them, but have they been cross bred, (mongrelized) by the men that bred them before them.. If your going to buy Rollers, at least find out if you are getting pure rollers, or Mongrels.. If you choose to get the rollers that are crossed up, at least you are going in, knowing your not getting Birmingham's, but colored rollers, Crossed to other breeds for other things, other than making better rollers.. You will hear, I breed for roll first and add the color second.. What a laugh, no one trying to breed roll first, would breed a roller on an ice pigeon, to make better rollers.. This is just a way to deceive the new comer and uninformed Mike..
The next thing you will hear to try and cover for the cross breeding and Mongrelizing of the Birmingham roller , is all rollers were crossed at some point to create the breed.. True, but the breed was established before it ever came to this country.. When you cross a known breed to another breed of anything, you mongrelize that breed and create at some point, another breed..
Nothing wrong with the colored crossed birds, some do roll well.. Just use this information to make an informed decision if you plan to get rollers Mike.. Mongrel lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel lofts on Jan 20, 2005 8:17 PM
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Bluesman
70 posts
Jan 21, 2005
3:13 AM
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Hi Mike.You have opened a highly debated topic that has been going on for years.You will find other threads on this site where this has been batted all over itself.Mongrel Lofts is right the Birmingham Roller was established long before it came to this Country.The Birmingham Roller has a Standard and this standard must be met before it can be called a Birmingham Roller.This Standard IS and I will Quote from Bill Pensom's book "The true Birmingham Roller which turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball".
The Birmingham Roller dosen't have a color Standard.If it is Purple and meets the standard above it is a Birmingham Roller.Mike if you are serious about getting into rollers before you buy anything study everything you can find on the Rollers.Learn the Breed & their needs.The web has more reading than you can keep up with.Some good some bad.Everyone has an opinion.Tony's site here has some very good articles about raising & caring for rollers.Rollers are a very easy kept breed but it's not as simple as just breeding a few pair and tossing them in the air and seeing a bunch of 20 to 50 foot rolls.As Mongrel Lofts said ask a lot of questions before you buy.Any Honest seller will try to answer any questions you have.David
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J_Star
152 posts
Jan 21, 2005
5:12 AM
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Mike,
Let me add that there is a down side to this hobby. Hawks and hawk season. You must be willing to share some of your rollers with them. You will know what I mean when you start to fly them. Good Luck.
Jay
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RolyPoly
34 posts
Jan 21, 2005
6:41 AM
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Just as a quick side question -- when is hawk season? Is it the same all over the country? We live in Reno, a fairly high altitude cold winter city. Thanks. Mike, we are just starting out in rollers, too, and never knew there was so much controversy in certian subjects, but that just adds the interest, and you get to develop your own opinion by reading and listening.
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BULLFROG
26 posts
Jan 21, 2005
7:14 AM
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mike i am interested in your ability to call a bird a mongrel. what do you think they were crossed with? if one of your blue checks was to throw a tort would you cull it because it was a mongrel?? what about the recessive factors in the genetic makeup of all birds? do you assume that a "" pure and true roller"" is also devoid of these genes. i am wondering what colors you accept as a "true" roller. my color experiance comes from the fancy breeds of pigeon and homer which i have been able to breed color in and out of. i have had many color projects that have allowed me to breed pure white homers from a line that didnt have any pure whites in its conception and the birds were pedigreed back to the maker of that line. i have also been able to breed a line of modenas direct from the origional breeder that have come up with colors he never knew where possible. i am puzzled by the fact that some think the rollers are so devoid of the genetic make up that regulates all pigeons and all liveing things also. please let me know where your train of thought lies on this. it is very interesting to me. i would be interested if you are willing to buy several pairs of your line of birds and see what colors i can pull out of them. just an experiment. chris
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Mike Di
2 posts
Jan 21, 2005
7:27 AM
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GENTLEMEN,
THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR ADVICE. I PLAN TO GET SOME ROLLERS ONLY FOR MY ENJOYMENT. IAM GOING TO TRY TO FLY THEM FOR MYSELY AND NOT TO COMPETE. I AM TOO NEW TO TRY ANYTHING TOO FANCY. I HAD PIGEONS YEARS AGO, WHEN I WAS A KID GROWING UP IN THE BRONX, NEW YORK. THAT WAS 40 YEARS AGO AND THE MEMORIES OF THE FUN I HAD THEN HAS NEVER GONE AWAY. I NOW LIVE ABOUT 60 MILES NORTHWEST OF NYC AND HAVE ROOM AT MY HOME FOR A LOFT. I ALSO NOW HAVE THE TIME TO DEVOTE TO THE HOBBY. ALSO, YES I KNOW THAT THE HAWKS WILL TAKE SOME BIRDS, BUT MOSTLY IN LATE FALL AND WINTER WHEN MOST OF THE WILD BIRDS AND RODENTS ARE GONE. I DO PLAN TO DO A LOT OF RESEARCH BEFORE I PURCHASE SOME BIRDS, I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE MY OWN KIT TAKE OFF AND SPIN.
THANKS TO ALL,
MIKE DI
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J_Star
153 posts
Jan 21, 2005
7:44 AM
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RolyPoly, Hawk season start actually from the mid to end of Sept to end of March. Some area of the country would have them bad while others not so bad. It only take one of them to do some real damage to your team. If it is a flacon, then as might as well lock them up until the season is over.
My take on the color thing. To me, it doesn’t matter what color the roller is as long as it is a good performer with quality, speed and style. Performance is the name of the game in this hobby. Don't forget the human nature either. When you are involved with competition or thinking about competing, keep in mind the judges prospective. Although people say they are not biased toward one or the other, but they are and judges are not any different. You will more likely not get good points if you fly the fancy colors compared to the colors of what the rollers perceived to be even if your fancy rollers perform similar. It is just the way it is. If you say otherwise, you are just kidding your self. Go back to the ‘Color’ post we had earlier in this forum and read the responses. You can sample some analysis of how others view this issue. How can you change their long time prospective about the crossed rollers especially where it counts, competition. That is only my opinion that I have drawn from reading all the posts about this subject and does not reflect what others might think about this topic or competition judges.
Jay
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Bluesman
72 posts
Jan 21, 2005
7:47 AM
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Welcome back to the Hobby Mike.David
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Mother lode lofts
375 posts
Jan 21, 2005
8:10 AM
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Jay you are dead wrong about the judging. Never have I seen a decent judge biased about anything and most take that job very very seriously. I've judged hundreds of kits accross this country and never was I biased on anything other than poor performing birds !!! Jay when you are judging and a kit is in the air above you it is just you and that kit and nothing else and that is where your soul focus is,color,comments from the bystanders,rain,who owns the team, you name it means absolutly nothing as it is just you and that kit and nothing else. They are either doing it or they aren't. Birds rolling straight,clean and smooth cannot be denied except by the poorest of judges. It's hard to pick out the color birds in a kit above you anyway. Be careful with the accusations that you have no experiance with Jay !!!!!!
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 21, 2005 8:13 AM
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J_Star
154 posts
Jan 21, 2005
8:36 AM
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Scott, never was an accusation at all. It is just my feelings only. I knew you would react to my post because I know you judged some competitons in the past. Scott people are people and not the same. My comments were not intended to offend anybody. You are a good person and a good judge, keep up the good work.
Jay
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Mother lode lofts
376 posts
Jan 21, 2005
12:21 PM
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Jay I knew weren't trying to offend anyone and my purpose of that post was to point out that any judge worth his salt takes the job of judging very seriously. Your not out there to make friends nor are you there to have a good time with buddys,the birds do the talking and that is all there is too it. It is a job and nothing else and to be honest with you it's not one that I enjoy, but it is one that needs to be done and I can assure you that the top kits have allways been in the correct order on the ones that I have judged. I've seen nothing less from the many judges that have been through here also. Some were not that good but they did the best job that they knew how.
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Mother lode lofts
377 posts
Jan 21, 2005
3:08 PM
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Mike just do your homework and it isn't really all that confusing. There are pure lines out there with pedigrees as long as your arm that are about as worthless as a Fantail when it comes to perfomance. Mike the Birmingham Roller "is a breed and not a standard. But there is a standard on what constitutes a good Birminham Roller. There are also birds out there that were crossed with other breeds for different colors, some are very up front with this fact and some try to muddy it. I'm not going to get into the good or bad of this but I think that it is important that new people need to know this so that they can make thier own choices. Mike when you are at a point that you want to persue birds steer away from those that "allways" have birds for sale with a sales pitch of how good they are. The best thing to do is contact people around youy own area if that is possible and learn who and what is out there. Good luck Mike and enjoy.
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BULLFROG
29 posts
Jan 21, 2005
4:10 PM
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mother lode i think the last two sentances in you last post is the best advice that can be given to a newcomer. mike dont let the somtimes argumentitive nature of this post put you off. there are good birds out there and if you just want to backyard fly then enjoy them. it may be hard to see on the surface but that is why we all have them. we enjoy them!! good luck in your adventure and let us know how you do. chris
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Cliff
19 posts
Jan 24, 2005
1:35 PM
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Mike and Chris, Don't be fooled by anyone trying to sell the fact that there is such a thing as a "pure bred" or pedigree Birmingham Roller. If we look back at the history of rollers, the breed is itself a "mongrel" breed having been developed by breeding two different flying breeds of pigeons, (but I guesss that's ok in the eyes of some. They can get past that thought.) So for anyone to say that only the family they fly is among the "pure breds" or the only "real Birmingham Roller" is a narrow and misinformed view. It is erroneous for a person to select any point in the developement of this breed and state that at this point they are "pure", that some color modifiers are acceptable and others are not, and that those should be viewed as mongrels. The proof is in the performance. Rollers of all colors are capable of champion performance. "Pedigree" birds are just as capable of lacking adequate in the roll gene and performance. Are these then true Birmingham Rollers? The classification of Birmingham Roller includes a wide genetic pool that is so diverse that I do not believe one can isolate a particular genetic code and say that "only these" are true Birminghams. And what's the point, except for the sake of argument. It's an argument that does not hold water any more. There is a color predjudice that has been reported, however, during competitions in the past. Hopefully we have gotten past it, as Scott believes. But it has cost the sport excellent breeders and flyers who have chosen not to participate rather than deal with the BS. I hope that we can put this crap behind us in the sport. Cliff
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Bluesman
99 posts
Jan 24, 2005
1:45 PM
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Cliff.You nailed that one down tight.LoL David
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Steve S.
46 posts
Jan 24, 2005
2:30 PM
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Cliff,
That is one of the most erroneous statements I ever saw posted on a pigeon list.
Pure bred Birminghams were defenantly made up of differant types of pigeons probably old dutch tumblers and oriental rollers and another tumbler of some breed of which I have my opinion.
But when they were crossed it became a new pigeon with a new name Called the "Birmingham" strian.
If we add or take away from that original makeup it is no longer the Birmingham strain.
I raise cattle and coon hounds.
Example: Pure Angus and pure limousine crossed are cattle but no longer an pure Angus or pure limousine but a cross.
Bluetick crossed on a walker is a coon dog but no longer a pure walker or pure bluetick.
Your way of thinking will destroy the breed in my opinion.
Steve
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Mount Airy Lofts
29 posts
Jan 24, 2005
2:46 PM
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Hi Cliff,
I believe in pure breeds myself and would like to ask you a question...
If there isn't any pure breeds out there, why is there a need to use the term pure breeds? Sounds strange why a nation of people would have to recognize certain mongrels to agree that it hold's enough merit to being called a certain breed. Once established, it's a breed. Sounds simple enough for me.
A current situration is a rising as we speak in todays time. Let's take the Show Roller vs. the Birmingham Roller. Now these birds are suppose to be as pure as they came and every ancerstor should trace back to the imports. But take a look the current day Show Roller and tell me that doesn't have any other crosses in it and that it is the same Birmingham Roller being showed in the old days. I'm not sure who, if anyone will amitt to cross breeding these bird to get it where it is but I recall one instance where in one of the Top Show Homer Line, a Lady wrote this book stating she sure fooled alot of people and took top prizes with her mongrelized Show Homers.
Acouple of the Show Roller fanciers today are trying to push for the Show Roller to be recognize as a breed of its own. I wish them luck because it sure isn't your average joe Birmingham Roller anymore. If we don't have different breeds, why is there a need to get the Show Roller recognized as a different breed.
Hey, if it works for you... good luck!
Thor
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Jan 24, 2005 2:48 PM
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RodB
30 posts
Jan 24, 2005
3:08 PM
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"If we look back at the history of rollers, the breed is itself a "mongrel" breed having been developed by breeding two different flying breeds of pigeons, (but I guess that's ok in the eyes of some"
That very line of thought has caused more damage and more rubbish individuals to the recogized pure bloodlines in many performace breeds the world over , the novice is very quick to point this out because he himself has mixed blood or he himself has made crosses for what ever reason but generally he just doesnt understand tough competition and to breed to compete to win , the guys that compete at top level would not make a cross because at this point in history where the performace has been so developed to such a high degree in all the performance animals , the top guys know a cross has only one way to go and thats "BACKWARDS" , go and cross a thoroughbred to another breed of horse and then see if it can compete at group one level , do the same with a Pitdog and then step into the real deal and you will get slaughtered .
Racehorses , Greyhounds , Pit dogs , Gamecocks and you got it our Birmingham Rollers all "BEGAN THIER LINEAGE" from crossing 100s of years ago , but then all the above were kept pure as silk , refined by generations of hard culling tested under fire in open competition , they bred them purely for performance and they never crossed them because a cross could not compete at "TOP LEVEL" against the pure blood and thats a fact.
Thats the difference I see with the Rollers a guy can breed for 50yrs and never step out of his own backyard , because they roll people think thats its ok to cross , a Thoroughbred crossed with a Quarter Horse can still run but the offspring could not compete with group one Thoroughbreds , you could cross a show English Bull Terrier with a PitBull and have the toughest dog on your block , and he could also beat some pure Pitbulls but thats the catch he could beat "SOME" but your cross would be destroyed by the BEST OF THE BREED ,you will find that the very best of any performance bred anything that have strong competition between men will have been kept pure and refined by men that fully understand what pure family breeding is all about , in some breeds for the lifetime of 2 men they have been kept pure family , if you cross todays purebred established performance animals and think you can compete with the very best you are dreaming , to think so is an insult to the great breeders in history that devoted thier life into breeding pure performance , the very best performer of any breed will be pure blood you can believe that !
Rod
Last Edited by RodB on Jan 24, 2005 3:10 PM
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Mother lode lofts
395 posts
Jan 24, 2005
3:26 PM
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Why is it that color breeders are the only ones with that line of thought ? Because that is how the crossing is justified. If you know anything about "set breeds" then you know that the orgins of most breeds were developed out of other breeds, the breed must be "set" to classify as a breed. With that line of thought then there is no differnce between a Golden retriever and a labador Retriever or a Rhode Island Red and a Leghorn, a Black Angus and a Brahma you get my drift. Cliff you did nail one thing on the head though and that is "NO" a pedigree does not mean "anything" they are only as good as the birds behind them and the men that wrote them.
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Bluesman
101 posts
Jan 24, 2005
3:56 PM
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Scott.I never got your email if you sent me one.
O.K.Mike asked the question at the beginning of this thread.His question and the article that Tom Monson wrote which I put the link up for everyone to read under Birmingham Roller Origin prompted me to ask the question When is a Roller not called a Birmingham.
Somewhere like always it got turned into the color debate.The article said a lot(and included color) but when I asked the question it had nothing to do with color.According to what I read in the article any roller that rolled was a Birmingham.Shoot me for never finishing 9th grade but I know what I read.Tom Monson is suppose to be a well known person.
Thats all I wanted to know.David
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Cliff
21 posts
Jan 24, 2005
6:11 PM
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Well, guys, I just finished reading the posts on color and performance in Birmingham Rollers. I'm sorry I missed all the fun this weekend! I know you are nearly brain-dead on the subject by now, but I love a good debate and I gotta put my two cents in. Steve, Scott, Thor and Rod B, by way of responding to your posts,I guess it's that "pure bred Birminghams" thing that keeps bugging me. The BR is in reality a strain of rollers that has been bred to certain performance genes through the infusion of Dutch Tumbler blood into Oriental Rollers. Face it, guys, the BR is an amalgum of genetic traits from flying tumblers. In Monsom's article on roller origins he reminds us, "the term 'roller' was usually reserved as a description of a pigeon's performance, and was rarely used to describe a distinct breed," as opposed to the flight characteristics of Twizzlers and Tumblers, the same flying breed, but with different (more desireable) flight characteristics. Of all the myriad of body types and roller styles and strains that were present in the breed, some with feathered legs and feet, others with crests, the geographical Birmingham strain was selected out as having certain more desireable characteristics and began to be separated out. These birds came from the same basic gene pool!Those performance genes have been selected out over the years, but it is no more a distinct breed than my family history of 6ft. 8 in. height since the Revolutionary War makes me a different breed of human. (Though some may disagree with me on that) So we are definitely a mutt, whether you want to admit it or not. So, I agree with you, Steve, let's call it a strain rather than a pure breed. You said to me, "Your way of thinking will destroy the breed.." I guess the Dutch Tumbler and Oriental Roller guys put up with the same nonsense when they created rollers. Good thing they didn't let that stop them or Birmingham Rollers wouldn't even be around today! So it's ok for you "purists" to accept that several hundred years ago, tumblers and rollers were crossed to develope the rollers that came to be known as the Birmingham strain, but crosses in the last fifty or a hundred years for a color modifying gene is unacceptable? Or that gene mutations were responsible for the "ro" gene and beneficial then, but any mutations for color modifications today is a sign of weakness? We could lay this to rest, and it would be worth the investment to end this debate, if we were to conduct a DNA test of the birds in your loft and compare it with the birds in mine. Do you honestly believe that mine and yours would show a homogeneous genetic pattern that is consistent within each of our lofts, but different between our lofts? If so, I guess you would win. But I don't believe that this is what we would find, (as I am sure you believe we would.) I believe we would find a wide range of dominant and recessive genetic traits in all the birds without respect for what loft it came from. As Monson said in his article, "Certain additive genes, proper type, physique, and a unique mental endowment are required before a pigeon can utilize the "ro" gene to perform like a true BR" Excuse me, but where does he say "certain color modifiers and patterns excluded" Rod, you said that guys like me (and I assume breeders that have color modifiers) do not understand tough competition and breeding to win. What a load of crap! I understand tough competition, plenty, and I watch guys compete and win with color modifiers in their families of birds more every year. But what I don't understand is the stereotyping, the sweeping generalizations and the self-righteous arrogance from some of you guys. Your communications demonstrate that you take a little information and make a quantum leap from the fact that these families of birds carry a few color modifiers like indigo, andalusian, dilute, etc., that we are crossing in other breeds any time we want a color; that we are feather merchants; that the breed is doomed; that they cannot perform; that they cannot win competitions; that we cannot breed for performance rather than color; that they are no longer Birmingham Rollers; all a load of crap, and just flat out wrong! I guess I can't figure where all that self-rightuosness comes from....just human nature, I guess. If it were true that as you say, outcrosses could only take the breed one way-backward-then the BR would not exist today, for it is truly an outcross. And we all outcross into our family of birds, from other families for hybrid vigor, to get a desired gene, and derive benefit by selecting out the birds with appropriate genes. That doesn't make them a different breed. So you don't get to pick and chose your philosophy to strengthen your particular point at the moment. Bringing in and selecting out a gene for a color modifier is no different from selecting in or out for other genetic traits like feathered legs, crests, depth of roll, kitting ability, style, eye sign or anything else, just as the Dutch Tumbler and Oriental Roller guys did when they outcrossed to create the bird we now know as the Birmingham Roller. OK, I'm done. I love you guys, and this sport, and these birds. It's a pleasure debating you on the issues. It seems to be, basically, a game of semantics that we are playing, anyway. Cliff
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RodB
31 posts
Jan 25, 2005
2:47 AM
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So things dont get lost in a debate that is so complex because of the dynamics of individual people and thier level of understanding , having different birds than each other , in a different place under different management conditions , everybody is kennel blind to a some degree and no more so than beginners and thats not pointing fingers at anyone in particular , Im generalizing !
This allows in places like this forum debates with lots of theorys offering what seams very sound evidence to the history of a highly bred bird or animal, these debates go on forever back and forth , so Im going to try keep this to the point .
The only way you can know fore sure at what watermark your stock is in terms of level of performace is to compare yours to the next guys and the only way to do that and be 100% accurate in your findings is to compete , what do they say , the bullsh:t stops when the tailgate drops .
Well thats what this debate is really about , competition , its alway been the performace and competition , man carnt help himself , life is a competition , a competition against yourself and how hard you can be on yourself , and the quality of the stock you feed will be a reflection of that .
And what will drive the above emotion is the standard of competition you compete in , you got to remember " the very best of the Birmingham Roller breed are of the smallest number , they are not prolific , the entire world B-Roller population would stack up like a pyramid with the very best performers perched on top and then faning down from there with each drop in performance the number of them becomes more common , this happens for two reasons , the first and the real reason it happens is because of this fact "like begets like " you are your fathers son , and the further the blood is from the very best performers or the core the less performance you get , common sense really .
The other reason is no breeder on top of that pyramid is going to hand over his best birds to just anybody not after he has given his life to them , so you now have in play a bird filtering where you get quality control based on the acquirers level of understanding So now we have hand me down birds from the core of performance all the way to the Roller for sale in the local pet shop .
So now where someone sits on the pyramid depends on how close to the tip of the pyramid thier birds really are and we establised already the best way to really know what you have is to compete !
All this depends on whether you understand or for that matter believe that there is a "core of performance"in the breed , blood linage like a vein in a mountain , the best bred to the best for generations "like gets like", the best of any generation were born from the best before them so on and so on right through history pick any species you like , the best come from the best , also not a lot of men would have them seeing as we already know the best is of the smallest number , or more to the the point not all of men that have them know fully what they have , boy thats another tanget all on its own :)
I guess Im getting off the point and starting to ramble , its such a deep subject its easy to get side tracked , its all this what is a Birmingham Roller , I guess its lots of things to many people , but to me he will be a bird close to the core and he will be pure family bred for more than 50 yrs and he will breed true , because I believe at the core of the Performance Birmingham this will be the birds that will be there.
I believe if you could have the greatest fly comp in the world where all Roller pigeons were scored , each for 3 generations , you would have a scoresheet that looks just like that pyramid , and on the very top 10% you would have a group that are kin , and if the best birds of 20yrs ago were colored the best today will be colored but if they werent colored ?
When I say the best I mean a bird that can compete against anyone anywhere , a champion , Im not talking about an outcross champion individual that is way better than both parents , he is a freak and will not breed on in 99% of cases , nature will revert to the average .
The top blood will reproduce its high performance traits on a more consistant basis the crosses wont and the good ones from those bred out the ass birds will be great ,
The crosses performance will wax and wane .
And to end this rant about nothing in particular the only way we will know for sure is competition , and the tougher the competition gets the easier it will be to find those core performance Birmingham Rollers and I think the winner of that imaginary Worlds greatest fly comp earlier would be a Birmingham Roller .
World competition is just starting the verdict is still open .
Rod
PS I start the post by saying not to get lost in the debate :) reminising does strange things .
Last Edited by RodB on Jan 25, 2005 2:54 AM
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Bluesman
110 posts
Jan 25, 2005
5:34 AM
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Rod.I have to disagree with you.Competition is just that.Anytime you have a judge ruling on something it is the way he sees it.Not always does the best win.It is how the game is played.
I competed for years in UKC Coon Hunts.Competition destroyed the breed.Why because the hound was developed around what it took for the dog to win in competition.It all came down to who had the most points at the end of the Hunt.Not always did the best dog win but the handler knowed how to paly the game and win at Competition.Been ther & done that.Won a lot & lost a lot.I learned to play the game.The dog never did.He still thought ha was just a dog doing his job.
I competed several years in NKC with squirrel dogs.I was a judge for NKC Breeds.All the dog had to do to be Registered was to meet the qualifications of that breed.I had a dog that was State Champion 3 years in a row.I knew how to compete and giving credit to having good dogs also.
The last year I competed a Newcomer showed up with this dog that was about as ugly a dog as I had seen(in my eyes)but it met the qualifications for the breed.I registered it and he happened to draw out with me.He said before we started that he knew nothing about Competition but the dog was a good squirrel dog.I had the hunt won by a big point margin but his dog beat mine fair and square.I knew how to compete he didn't.I disqualified my dog before the hunt ended.His dog won.I knew his dog was better,the judge knew his dog was better but because I knew how to compete I would have won.So don,t tell me that competition is where the best rollers will be.Its how the handler prepared before the fly.
I am going to use Scott as an example(Scott you know I respect you).If something happened to his A team that he has worked 6 years or more to develop would he be able to compete with his backup kit and win at the same level as he does now? He should be able to they are from the same family.I don,t think he could.They are just as good but don,t have the experience that his A team did because they never competed as much if any.David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Jan 25, 2005 5:52 AM
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RodB
32 posts
Jan 25, 2005
2:59 PM
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Dave , of course in any comp not always the best will win , that is why in debates like this you got to genralize , you carnt be specific because what we talk about is so complex .
The best dont win all of the time , granted , but I will bet my life that they win the vast majority of the big comps especially if you study the recorded results over a long period of time , the more fierce the competition the better the average quality will be within the players , it has to be that way , you cannot have heavy competition and not improve the quality of the tools that are at the top of that competition , the bottom end will always be crap it never changes , Im talking about the top end the ones that win , this is why certain blood is so sort after as it produces consistant group one offspring , to find this blood you got to look past one performance , lucky wins , bad judges etc are heard in every field , what Im saying is that the best blood will shine through over "time" although they can be hidden on the surface by induendo , opinions and hard luck storys and to complicate a mans search a scattering of freak champions that dont breed on but are picked up and bred by the newcomers to create the many flash in pans of the time which only muddy the water some more , but believe this , a core blood will be there , I have not a single doubt in the world of that .
The point Im making is that as the World Cup grows and in years to come the melting pot of developing the winners will bubble to the top the best blood familys that are in the world today and Im saying those familys will come from the best of yesterday and at no time in the history of the breed will they be pursued by men with more vigor and resources , familys that have been kept tight and close to the grain for 100s of years maybe only touched by 5 men in 100 years or more , the family of dogs I raised could be traced back to the early 1800s and were developed by only 7 men up till the present time , to get core blood with a true understanding on its linage from this bloodline you near on had to part with a leg , and I dont mean monetary although they were not cheap , I had to obtain a level of understanding just to find them ( many winners have fake papers )and then be worthy of owning them in the eyes of the last old timer to have them , having the stock is one thing but you got to know the keys to the family and how to maintain it correctly and this education is handed down only to a few , I cannot see the birds being any different as they were created by the same fancy !
I know that there will be familys of B-Rollers that will be like those dogs , bred tight and at the core of performance, they will be out there as sure as eggs .
The World Cup will create a standard within the Birmingham Roller breed , over time it will be a new era for this bird , as more men worldwide pursue the World Cup the more sought after the best blood will become and the more determined some men will be to find it .
Ultimate repeatable performance is the goal and open competition is the testing ground where we refine our theorys .
Rod
Last Edited by RodB on Jan 25, 2005 3:40 PM
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Steve S.
53 posts
Jan 25, 2005
3:09 PM
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Rod,
You speak with words of wisdom
behond your years.
Good Post
Steve
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RodB
33 posts
Jan 25, 2005
3:57 PM
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Thankyou for your complement Steve , Im flattered :), my understanding on these matters comes from 30yrs of breeding and competing at the highest level with an animal bred for pure performance , and its just a coincidence that the my dog and your bird were created by the same men .
I know I have no experience with birds , but I feel the principles of blood and breeding will be exactly the same as what I have learned in dogs for most of my adult life .
Rod
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