Siddiqir
137 posts
Jan 11, 2005
7:23 AM
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Hello, just would like to hear what you guys think about feeding just wheat nothing else to flyers...age is not matter young or mature as long as they are in the kit box they get wheat. Thanks, -Rauf
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Mother lode lofts
348 posts
Jan 11, 2005
8:22 AM
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What do I think ? As one that uses lots of wheat it's not a good idea at all !!!!!
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J_Star
135 posts
Jan 11, 2005
9:46 AM
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Rauf, Danny told me that he feeds his birds wheat only. They are doing fine with it for me. I don't know about other family if that is good for them or not. Allot of material that I read, flyers say that is what they only feed their rollers. Here you have it, different opinion than Scott. Please others give us your input. Thanks.
Jay
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BULLFROG
10 posts
Jan 11, 2005
11:24 AM
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jay can you elaborate on the use of straigt wheat? i was planning on feeding a millet milo and corn mix at about 1 cup per 20 birds in the kit box. after i move them from the kit to the breeder i was going to use a millit milo corn rice safflower and pea mix any thoughts?
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
360 posts
Jan 11, 2005
12:26 PM
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It is not a good idea to wean and train young birds on just straight wheat. Feed the young ones mix until they are flying good, then you can cut the mix 50% with a good red winter wheat. My young ones always get the mix until they start flying really strong, then I cut it or sometimes alternate wheat-mix-wheat-mix..etc. Straight wheat when given to young birds tends to lean them out which in turn tends to take the frequency away as well as making them tend to fly higher than they usually would. Straight wheat is a tool like any other feed. But if you only had one seed available to feed your birds, red winter wheat would be the best and they will do fine on it. Its just not necessary to train them that way.
Brian.
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Mount Airy Lofts
13 posts
Jan 11, 2005
4:02 PM
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I like giving my young birds a mix feed until they look like they are ready to go up. Once they start showing they are ready to take to the sky... I will bring them down with my flying feed which is chicken scratch. I believe instead of chicken scratch, straight wheat will get the same result.
In the Roller Film by Rick S. 'Visit to England Lofts', Bob Brown is a avid believer in straight wheat. If I recall correct, that's all he would give his fliers...
I have heard from guys that wheat will make their birds fly higher... so will say the opposite. There is no absolute in this breed... just experiment until you find the right fomula.
If you asked me, I think straight wheat will give you good results.
I'll give it a try next year on my Plona based Family.
Thor
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Mother lode lofts
350 posts
Jan 11, 2005
5:31 PM
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Maybe a little bit of detail of my thought on wheat would help. First off I fly on straight wheat "most" of the time but a little common sence and knowledge of what wheat is to be taken into consideration. Wheat is probably the best all around "single" grain there is and a bird would be probaby be able to survive on that alone depending on location, time of year and climate, although I would have some serious concerns about it where the temps can get severe. But it is also a somewhat weak grain that is only in the 12 0/0 range as far as protien,high carbs and very little fat. Now lets look at youngsters, once weaned they need to grow bone,muscle,feather and mature mentally,Wheat is a very poor choice for this as it just doesn't have what a growing youngster needs,it just isn't there. Lets look also at the moult. This is also a time when just wheat doesn't cut it. It is real simple the birds just plain need more than wheat or they end up just dragging it out and end up with a poor moult, if I want to retard the moult wheat is how I do it. Now lets deal with extream temps (which I don't have) Wheat just does not have the fat content that is needed under these conditions. First thing that we have to remember is that these are "pigeons" first and they have needs that go beyond just survival. And we need to know how and when to use these grains as tools. Using straight wheat 24/7 is like rebuilding a motor with a pair of pliers. In other words it makes no sence, it is what it is and to me it is priceless but only when I have the other tools at my disposal as there are times that you need to build the team up with protien in order to pull the hard roll. Bottom line is you need to learn when and how to use these grains and meeting the needs of the birds also has to play in.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 11, 2005 7:13 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
362 posts
Jan 11, 2005
10:59 PM
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Good Post Scott!
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J_Star
137 posts
Jan 12, 2005
5:42 AM
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Let me add to this post by saying that you will be amazed on how little a roller needs to be healthy and able to perform. They are hardy. Weather climate and moult are other conditions that a flyer need to adjust to. In moult times just add some saflower with the wheat and when it gets really cold, add about 10-15% corn. Corn generate heat and the rollers will be content. I have found that the best result for me is 50/50% wheat and milo when I fly my birds in the spring thru fall. In winter I mix 2/1 wheat/mix from December thru February.
I am including a website that has an article written by Rick Schoening that might help you. It is the method I have been using and it is working for me.
http://kcloft.tripod.com/artick.htm
When I was experimenting with feed, I used feed mix, and the rollers were racing around and fly high. Since the change, I got them to fly slower and the right hight. Performance wise, supper. The hardest thing for flyers to really master is feeding the rollers, Wheat and milo, I think is getting me there. In my Horner family birds, Danny told me he feeds them wheat from the day they leave the nest, just wheat. I had trouble purchasing wheat in my area, so I fed them mix at the time. Until I found where to get the wheat and milo from. I drive 1-1/2 hours to buy it. I buy a few 50lb bags a time. Certainly, you should experiment with feed until you get the result you want.
There are couple articles might be of interest to you. The first one is for another flyer method feeding his rollers
http://www.the-spa.com/paul.maywald/feeding_rollers.htm
The other one is written by Donny James and it's about maximum nutrition of all the seeds and grains around.
http://kcloft.tripod.com/artdj1.htm
As you can see Wheat has 15.2% protein, 70.9% Carb, 1.8% fat and 1.8% fiber. Milo has 10.5% protein, 65.2% Carb, 3.5% fat and 1.8% fiber. I hope all these articles would help and shed more info. If others know of good articles for us to read on the net, please post them snd share the knowlege. Thanks.
Jay
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Mother lode lofts
353 posts
Jan 12, 2005
7:43 AM
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Jay go back in in the threads where you asked the question about how to slow your birds down and see where we told you "wheat". If you want to really biring them down quik then Milo is the answer because as it is a step below Wheat. yes If I fly a mature or getting mature bird on a higher protien then they will fly strong (too strong) But at times I want them at this stage and then hone them in on Wheat (carbs). They have the strength to roll hard and the Wheat brings it all together and slow them down. If you continue on the wheat the roll starts getting ragged. At that point peas clean it up (protien)if you keep them on the peas (protien) then they get strong on you again. It is all tools Jay, you bring up Rick S. and his set up. Actually I think he uses more Milo these days and I know for a fact that once the roll deterorates that he hits them with peas(protien) as most do to clean them up. Gnerally what we are talking here is setting up for competion. As for just plain maintance flying I'll use something like a light mix on fly day to keep them a tad on the strong side and two days on straight wheat. Jay I'm also well aware of what these birds can survive on as Summer time my mature birds get pretty much straight wheat and I they could about live on Wheat fumes that time of year. You also have Wheat kicking 15.2 0/0, not even buddy, if a Wheat is kicking that high as far as protien it would be a (for human consumption) Wheat which is a completly differant animal. As for feeding Wheat to youngsters straight out of the nest, well that is someone that doesn't know any better to be honest with you as we want to grow them to have the strength to roll hard not just survive. These are things that you are going to have to learn for yourself Jay because all you can do is take the basics and start applying them to suit you. No one can tell "exactly" how to do it because there are just to factors involved.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 12, 2005 8:15 AM
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J_Star
138 posts
Jan 12, 2005
7:58 AM
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Scott,
Thanks. I finaly got you to open up a bit and explain things in your last post insted of just being too general and giving hints without explaining the methods and process. I will take your notes to heart this spring as I continue to refine the feeding process for the optimal performance. I also need to add to my previous post is not just what you feed them is importent. That's just half of the battle. The other half is how much. Thanks Scott.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jan 12, 2005 8:00 AM
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Mother lode lofts
355 posts
Jan 12, 2005
8:11 AM
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Jay it is hard to put it down in a post or even an artical as the condition of the birds dictate where you need to go as far as feed, It isn't because I'm holding back. I might add that some Families cannot handle Wheat as they'll become lawn darts on it. My birds thrive on Wheat but there is just a little more to it to get the full benifit of what Wheat can give me.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 12, 2005 8:13 AM
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Siddiqir
141 posts
Jan 12, 2005
9:25 AM
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Thanks all. Great information here.
There are two chapters in book "Winners with Spinners" which talks about feeding birds...there are some well know fanciers which only feed wheat nothing else to birds and they have very good results...Now...why they get excellent results just by feeding wheat nothing else and on other hand other fanciers give different grains (mostly only feed wheat/milo in different % to flyers) to have same results...
If one fancier built a family of rollers and give lot of peas to birds and then other fancier try to work with same family and give different grain like only wheat then I believe there will be problem. So this is more look like on which grain(s) you build your family. Thanks, -Rauf
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Siddiqir
143 posts
Jan 13, 2005
10:08 AM
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Any one agrees? Disagree? This is still question why some family do good on just one grain and other do not.
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J_Star
141 posts
Jan 13, 2005
10:59 AM
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Rauf,
I really believe that pigeons are hardy and can adjust within a reasonable time to the new feed. They will adapt and perform as their usual. If the birds are good performers, they will always be good performers. Remember that it does not take much to make them happy. This is just my opinion.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jan 13, 2005 11:03 AM
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STARFIRE
98 posts
Jan 18, 2005
7:02 PM
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Hey Guys:
Why do all you guys want to give yourselves a headache,worrying about what to feed your birds.I have kept pigeons for 55 years,and for the last 40 years,I have fed only wheat.I take them from the nest and wean them on wheat only.They get all they want to eat,when I feed them,then I take the tray away,and throw another handful for the next morning.When they have been flying for a couple of months,I start to cut them back to 1 tablespoon of wheat per bird.
By this time they are flying 1-2 hrs.If they go too high I cut the feed till they come down where I want them.Same goes for the time.Thats all they get till winter,(I'm in Canada),then they get only whole corn.If I were to have a competition I would give them about half milo.I lock them down from the middle of November til March.I figure I fed the hawks enough by this time.The wheat I feed them is hard western Canadian wheat.I have heard that the wheat in the states in some parts is not as good,so that will make a difference.For breeding I use only Chicken pellets.mixed with a little scratch.They dont get weak ,they molt normally and the are as healthy as you would want.Works for me. =Stan Arnold =
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Mount Airy Lofts
19 posts
Jan 18, 2005
11:55 PM
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Hi Stan A.,
Do you get alot of overflys with your feeding method?
The reason I ask this is because my family is prone to sky out if fed to well, even as young birds. I lost many young birds on their first flight because I kept them too strong by exactly what you mentioned above.
The saying goes that young birds aren't suppose to fly high but tell that to my family of rollers. If the feeds not rationed, when they look like they are ready to take off for the first time, you might as well kiss them good bye. First flight, second flight, etc. if the feed is not monitored... skying out will diffinitly be in the picture. As we all know that if any young bird team skys out especially the first time they hit the air, it is more then likely that you will lose the whole kit or atleast most of them.
I'm curious how many other people feed their birds all they can eat and then some for months before cutting the feed down?
I believe wheat is a all around good grain to feed our fliers but even wheat will overfly our birds if not rationed correctly. I'll agree that pigeons can survive on solely just wheat... heck I fed my commies that all the time when I had them as a young lad.
There are alot of different familys out there today and altho one method will work for a certain family, it spells disaster for another.
High flying runs strong in many of my birds background. Something I'm trying to weed out.
Thor
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Bluesman
63 posts
Jan 19, 2005
2:23 AM
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Hi Everyone.I have heard a lot about this wheat thing.I hear/read so often that wheat or wheat/milo is all you need to feed your flying rollers.Scott and some others on here has often said that wheat is just another tool and should be used wisely.What I am trying to say here is mostly to the ones just starting to fly rollers.Only believe half of what you hear & read.What works one place will not always work another.Back to this wheat thing.Starfire has always said he only feeds wheat.Iam using Starfire because of him living in Canada.From what I understand the wheat in Canada and a lot of northern regions that the wheat will test from 15% to as high as 18% in protein.I have tried to fly my birds on wheat/milo and what I wound up with after a period of time was a lot of birds crashing.Finally I had the wheat & milo tested.Guess what The wheat tested at a whooping 8% and the milo tested at 9%.My family of birds need at least 12% average to operate fully.Like Scott said wheat is a tool and can be used to a big advantage if used at the right time.But if you think you can take young birds and just feed them wheat you had better know what percentage the wheat is you are feeding them.Even in your commercial pigeon mixes you buy.You can buy several 12% protein mixes with the same grains but which grain did they use to get the protein to that level.Depends on whatever grains they can get the most protein level and still stay competive in pricing.As several has said you have to experiment with the feed thing and see what works for you.I still experiment every year.Thats part of the fun of rollers.Unless your wheat tests at 12 % or higher I wouldn,t expect to fly rollers hard on wheat without complications.My very humble opinion.David
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J_Star
144 posts
Jan 19, 2005
5:34 AM
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Like you said, don't believe everything you read on the net. Therefore, wheat tested at 8%, and less than Milo is ignored. You should have looked for another suplier. If wheat is less than 12%, it is garbage wheat. But in this case mix it 3/1 Wheat/good pigeon mix to substitue. I purchase a very good wheat @ $6.25 per 50lb. Where can you beat that? Milo @ $10.50 per 50lb and good pigeon mix @ $13.75- $20. You can see where the most economical and healthy way of taking care of the rollers. I noticed my rollers when eating, they go for the wheat first, some after the peas and milo. That is because it is cold here (Ohio) and I have been mixing 2/1 Wheat/pigeon mix to get them through the winter months.
But, in general, I think, Wheat is a good all around feed. better than other grains available. I do think that light pigeon mix will do the same, but that feed usually high in wheat in the mix. How can you use the wheat as a tool if it tests at 8%? If wheat is used as a tool, then what is the standard feed for the birds? A good pigeon mix, I would think, because what other feed there is to feed them economoically and healthy? Please elaborate if you would.
I believe, and that is my opinion, that peas and milo are used as tools rather than wheat. Wheat is the main feed and you can play with the others to adjust to what you want.
I think Tony outta put this in his POLL, and have people vote on this to see the percentage of flyers feeding their roller certain grain to get a general idea of the feed paterns. Thanks.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jan 19, 2005 5:58 AM
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Bluesman
64 posts
Jan 19, 2005
7:20 AM
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Like I said earlier.Unless you test your wheat to see what % of protein is don,t use it as your main grain.You are on here saying wheat is the best grain to go.Have you had your wheat tested? Someone starting out reads what you say and believe it is gospel.And it is for you.The fact that your birds go for the wheat first proves your wheat is a better grain.They know.As for finding another supplier I have 2 choices.16.00 a hundred for 8% wheat.Or buy what is grown local for 8.00 a hundred.Both tested between 8 & 9 %.You said I should mix this wheat with a mix.Exactly what I said.Therefore wheat is not the better grain for me.And it may not be for a lot of other fanciers.Believe me I have been all over the web trying to find a different supplier.I can but you have to buy a min.of a ton of feed at one time to get it delivered.My next choice is driving over an hour one way which I can,t do.So I will say again unless you know what percentage your wheat is be careful flying your kit birds on just wheat. Again my Humble Opinion.David
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Mother lode lofts
369 posts
Jan 19, 2005
7:35 AM
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No not all Wheat is the same, plus it is difficult to even buy wheat from the same source where the qaulity is consistant on a regular basis for most. The Hard red wheat is the best and generally comes out of Canada. And the soft white isn't that good. I feed the Hard Red myself and this is "NOT" kicking 15 0/0 protien but nor do I want it to. Generally if you go from say a well rounded mix to straight Wheat your birds sky on it is because the Carb boost at first but once they get over the carb boost you can manage them much better. If you keep them on Wheat and continue flying hard they will again start lifting on you after a period because they are carrying no Wt. and just get boyont and get into "too" good of fly condition. Once they hit this point it isn't just a case of cutting the feed as the lack of weight and too good of fly condition is the problem for skying out. This is when you need to lock them up for a spell and pound the wt back on them and get them out of fly condition, Then you start over. Dave if your birds are drilling the dirt on Wheat then they just need to be fed richer. But I would play around with some middle ground there to see where the best results are.
As for straight Wheat I found when put an a three day yo-yo system that it works well for long periods of time as only flying every three days kept them out of to good of fly condition and they also maintained thier weight (talking oldbirds here). As for the top fliers across the country I don't know of any that use nothing but straight wheat day in,day out, month after month (this is what we are talking about,right ?). Many will use it to set the birds up though and then hit them with a protien boost. Monty Nieble flew on a straight wheat but it was a "human consumption" Wheat though , which is very exspenive unless you have a source. I hear that he started playing some with peas also but is suspect it was more for a boost. My birds could survive on hard red wheat but I'm looking for more than just surviving. And when the moult hits I am looking to get them through it as quickly as possible, high protien and high fat is what will do that and there is no Wheat on the planet that will do that for me. I'll end this with "Straight Wheat" is my staple but if it was all I had it would be a handicap.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 19, 2005 8:14 AM
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Bluesman
65 posts
Jan 19, 2005
7:44 AM
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Scott.I have been giving mine on the day they fly 2 cups of mix.Next day 1 cup mix,1/2 cup wheat,next day a cup of wheat.Fly the next.This is winter time.Summer is different.This has been working well for me.This is on the older birds.After finding out my wheat was junk my rolldown problems have stopped.(Almost)David
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Mother lode lofts
370 posts
Jan 19, 2005
8:07 AM
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Dave I would say that 12 0/0 is a high qaulity Wheat, and that 8 0/0 is very low qaulity. Your right though unless it's tested you really don't know. And on top of it,what you buy today doesn't mean that what you bought last Mo. is the same.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 19, 2005 8:10 AM
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Siddiqir
150 posts
Jan 19, 2005
8:40 AM
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Scott, do you kmow the percentage of protein in "Human Consumption" wheat? I believe it must be 15% or higher.
Thanks, -Rauf
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J_Star
145 posts
Jan 19, 2005
10:16 AM
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I think we all are saying the same thing but in different ways. The only thing that I don't like about mix is certain rollers will eat certain grains while others eat the other kind of grains. That will cause the rollers to fly different than others within the same kit. I heard a lot about Dave's method but never tried it. But I will give it a try. Scott, I like your explanation on the feed thing, it is informative. Here in ohio, they grow the wheat locally and sold locally. I did not mention in the last few posts that I also give vitemins in the water twice a day or Apple Cider Vineger and also give the birds on occasion red grit. Thanks for the info...
Jay
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Bluesman
66 posts
Jan 19, 2005
11:25 AM
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Talking about the price we pay for feed.I dug out one of my old record books from 1962.I bought 18 rollers for 8.25.Muffed Tumblers @ 2.00 each.Wheat was .80 for 50 pound,Scratch was 1.00 per 50 and a pigeon mix at the mill was 1.15 per 50.This was also the same year I got my first pair from Bill Pensom for 25.00 + 10.00 on the gas for the fellows traveling to a show where Pensom was meeting everyone.Actually a buddy and me split the cost of the pair.Neither one of us could afford to buy a pair.We sure fostered a lot of eggs.LOL.Back then we knew nothing about kit boxes or feed control.We just flew them with whatever else we were flying.Things have sure changed over the years.Some say the rollers were better back then but I like what I see today.Just rambling.David
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Fireball
13 posts
Jan 19, 2005
11:28 AM
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Good thread especially for new flyers. Like one said, it depends a lot on your climate and the time of year. 2 questions: 1) have your read the article about which I believe it was Leroy Smith fed a good quality scratch with a small bit of additional grains? 2) I already know the benifits of..but what are your thoughts on barley?
Bruce
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Siddiqir
151 posts
Jan 19, 2005
11:50 AM
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Ok, the point here is if rollers can fly and roll good on one grain why we need to carry 5 different grains? It is simple to feed one grain…as Jay said rollers would not jump around to pick what they like…kit will perform the same as they all get same nutrition…
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J_Star
146 posts
Jan 19, 2005
12:07 PM
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Fireball, barley has the same makeup as Milo except fat and fiber. Barley has 1.8% fat and 4.5% fiber. As you can see it is a bit high on fiber and would clean the birds out and soften their dropings. I think Barley should be used sparingly.
Jay
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Bluesman
67 posts
Jan 19, 2005
12:45 PM
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Sid.If I could buy my feed seperated I would do so and just feed one grain at a time.This is something I am working on and hope the mill can order me in certain grains seperate.They are trying to combine an order with some Racing Homer fellows to meet the Min.order.So they say.I think they just don,t want to waste their time on the pigeon type feed.They are mostly Hog & Cattle feed but have started to expand into the smaller type feeds now that most all of the smaller farms have gone under.Feeding a mix some will eat certain grains first thats for sure.Seems like the little tiny white grain thats in the mix is the last to go.I think that little white one does something wacky with the birds.I sometimes throw them outside when they get down to them.David
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Mother lode lofts
371 posts
Jan 19, 2005
4:46 PM
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Yes Rauf from what I understand the Human Consumption Wheat is kicking 15 or 16 0/0 range. Ok now , I'm not looking for a grain that does it all. I want Wheat on the weak side as that is how is serves it's purpose for me. What I use a mix with protien and fat for is to bulk the bird up. Then I use the Wheat to condition and harden them and to add a little stress and to bring them into a particular condition or hold them in a particular condition for a priod of time. In other words here is a basic setup for my birds 14 days out they go from buildup to wheat and then I fly the pants off of them on straight wheat, going into thew last week they are stressed and the roll is basicly flown out of them and any of the roll that you do see is ragged and the fat is burned off and on the last fly do I only want to see them doing loops above the house for 20 min or so, they are brought to this point at the end of a two week period. Then they get hammered with a Rich Mix and get a two day rest, then it's fly day. If it's a good team and I got em right they will give me an exceptional day above and beyond what you will normally see, they do this do to the rest and the feed change stimulates them and the protien tightens the roll back of due to the charge of strength that they get. You can hold them a bit at this point but real soon they need to be built back up. This is only one example of what I mean by using grains as tools. Never do expect to see my best flys out of just doing the same thing over and over again although sometimes weather will induce an exceptional day and then sometimes they just surprise you because they feel like it. So maybe I am off base here as far as this topic goes, if you just want to feed basicly "one" grain then as long as weather isnt a factor Wheat probably fill's that order more than any other. But if you want to get the most out of your birds as far as qaulity, Stimulation, manipulation of the roll and keeping the birds overall health up then "all" the grains play in depending on what you need the birds to do, in other words if your birds are lean and mean and sking out then you need to pound the wt.(protien/Fat) on them,if they are fat and out of shape then you condition with Wheat and or Milo. If it's moult time then you feed them such to get them through it as quickly and possible. Now here is few things to think about that apply to "my" birds "sometimes to get the best Roll and work rate you have to ruin the roll and work rate first" also "to much of one thing that is working will give the opposite effect over time" This is only my opinion on what I find works for my birds
All my grains are bought seperatly so that I can feed straight,hard mix,light mix or what ever my gut and the birds reactions tell me what I "think" that I sould do.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 19, 2005 4:51 PM
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STARFIRE
99 posts
Jan 19, 2005
10:25 PM
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Hi Thor;
When I say I feed all they want,I mean for the first little while,maybe a month.As you know the young ones when they are weaned eat very little for the first couple of weeks.I keep them in for 2 weeks and make sure they are eating good before I let them out.I let them out Hungry and let them sit on the roof for 5 days so as to let them get used to the area.My birds are high flyers also .All you have to do is cut the feed as much as you need to to get them to fly lower.I never have an overfly,and I lose very few birds.
I think the guys that lose a lot of birds have a family that dosen't have good homing instincts.I feed them all they want when they come in and will do so till they dont want to come in right away.Then I will cut them back to 1 tblsp. per bird .I want them in within 5 minutes from when I open the trap,and will cut them back till they come in with thier wings up.==Stan Arnold=
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Bluesman
68 posts
Jan 20, 2005
3:45 AM
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Thanks Scott.I enjoyed your last post very much.This one should go into the Archives.LOL Any time you would like to share another Example I am sure it would be appreciated.You and Brian have always been willing to share your secrets & thoughts.And your names are usually always among the top fliers in the Flys.You must be doing something right.LOL David
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J_Star
148 posts
Jan 20, 2005
6:30 AM
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Scott, in regard to your post #369, you said when the birds get into too good of fly condition you would lock them up for a spell and pound the wt back on them and get them out of fly condition. This would really cause a problem. Usually when you start put some wt on locked up cocks, then they start want to screw on the kit box floor. And when they fly again they act like cull because they are fat and cocky. I keep my kit birds a bit hungrier to keep their mind off screwing. What I would do to get them out of good fly condition is to mix Milo with the Wheat to slow them down a bit, but keep no extra wt on them and no lock down to avoid side effects. This is my thought, what is yours? Thanks
Jay
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Mother lode lofts
372 posts
Jan 20, 2005
7:50 AM
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Dave all I do is give insight on what I do with "my" birds. My main goal is to get people thinking and to learn what makes "thier" birds tick. I cannot keep my birds at the top of thier game everyday that they fly. There are many times that I am just maintance flying. At this point you see some work but certainly not thier potential but they aren't that far off from putting into condition. Once I put into condition I can hold them there for a bit. The way I way that I maintance fly my A team (oldbirds) is straight Wheat and a three day rotation. Fly day,two day rest, fly two day rest. Keep in mind these are birds that are allready rolling hard and not Y/Bs that I am trying to bring into the roll, If I have company coming then I'll stimulate them, with say a feed change on fly day and no feed the day before the following fly. This won't put them at potential but it will yank thier chain and they will give me more,just an example here. This does not work with some familys same as straight wheat does not work with all families but every family has certain buttons to push to get potential when needed. Just gotta figure it out is all. The biggest problem that people have is over flying the birds that are allready in the roll and basicly just fly the roll out of them, so what do they do ? they just keep flying them hoping it comes back. At this point what will bring it back is rest. Just an example here showing that it is an up and down process for me. Again this is just my opinion and how I manage "my" own birds.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 20, 2005 7:57 AM
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Mother lode lofts
373 posts
Jan 20, 2005
8:20 AM
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Jay dealing with cocky cocks is a different topic. Personally I am very short with cocky cocks and I'll never let a cocky cock dictate how I handle my team. For one if they ever give me any problem while flying in the kit I'll cull them in a heartbeat. If a cock is getting cocky in the box I'll put them in a different box until I drop the hammer down again but I "never" put up with them disrupting the team. When I say lock up for a spell I'm talking a week to a week and a half usually. Jay you need to understand why wheat/Milo does what it does, it is "taxing" them and that is why it slows the wingbeat. No you don't use it to get them out of fly condition. The only way to get them out of fly condition is by not "flying" them. As for looking like culls when you start to refly. Yep they sure do but when I bring them back they are in top form, and many times when they look like culls I know that they are ready to polish. Jay in no way am I trying to see top roll and workrate everytime that I fly them as they just can't do it. But I do know how to hold them at a point where I get a taste of it. And at times I have to get them ugly to put them at this point. Again Jay just a "little" insight on how I manage "my" birds and nothing else.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 20, 2005 8:29 AM
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Mount Airy Lofts
23 posts
Jan 20, 2005
10:30 AM
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Hi Stan A.,
Thanks for clear things up. I thought you fed your young birds up all they want and then some for months before cutting the feed down. I too feed my young birds up until they look ready to fly...
Anywho, about the poor homing instinct factor I have in my family... I too would agree. My family lacks this alot. I would lose birds if they were release two city blocks away. Altho take a bird that doesn't perform, hence a 'cull' and it will return back from almost any distance. I have come to a conclusion that the harder workers in the kit are easily prone to get lose if taken off track, like if release two blocks away. Homing instinct was never a factor in my family. Any bird that didn't make it back, couldn't be bred from. My family has been built on performance and performance alone so other traits have been lost during this process-like homing. Have a family of rollers that have good Homing abilities or Performance abilities? Performance, guilty as charged. Birds being lost in overflys have been plaquing this family from the start. Flipping thru old magazines or roller books and it is apparent that Stan Plona lost many, many birds to this. Many, many birds are still lost today due to their lack of homing.
Thor
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Mount Airy Lofts
24 posts
Jan 20, 2005
11:25 AM
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I believe wheat is a grain one has to start from. Someone mentioned it already but wheat in my mind is the foundation grain. One can do fine with just feeding wheat alone. Altho add acouple of maple peas to this and you will find the birds have become stiffer but grain more vigo and velocity to their spin. Take a 180 degree turn from adding maple peas and subsitute in milo... you will notice that they will be more frequent but lack the vigor and velocity peas added. Well, atleast that has been the effect my family of birds have on it.
Wheat = all around grain
from wheat add milo = more frequency but lack quality
from wheat add millet = same as milo but prone to sky the birds out
from wheat add peas (I like maple peas myself) = more flying but add more quality
from wheat add barely = alot more frequency but lack quality and control (it would be equalivent to starving the heck out of the birds and then flying them)
These has been the only feed I have been experimenting so far. Remeber feed is a tool, one can have success with any feed just as long as they know how to use that tool to fit their bird's needs.
Thor
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Jan 20, 2005 11:30 AM
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Bluesman
73 posts
Jan 22, 2005
2:31 AM
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Here is an update on my 8% protein wheat.I contacted the mill where I get my wheat and asked them why the wheat grown local was only testing 8%.What he told me answered a lot of questions.
The wheat grown here is grown after the farmers harvest their corn for a cover crop.Most corn grown here is for silage.To get the protein content higher you have to add more nitrogen to the soil.They don,t do this because they are just planting wheat,rye etc as a cover crop over the winter and wait till they plant corn to add back the nitrogen.The corn crop before has already deleted the nitrogen in the soil and what you wind up with is wheat that is low in protein.90% of the cover crops planted are never harvested.What is harvested is sold to the mill and either bought back next fall for another cover crop or added into Hog feed.So much for my lesson in farming.LOL. David
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Mother lode lofts
382 posts
Jan 22, 2005
3:06 AM
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Dave maybe try it with salflour. It will boost it up some. This time of year many times I'll throw in a hand full of it after feeding a ration of wheat. Or try using it as a heavy base in a mix. Run them on that for a while then hit with a heavy mix and see what happens.
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Bluesman
74 posts
Jan 22, 2005
4:00 AM
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Thanks Scott.I have had 50 pound of saffour seed on order for the past month.They can get it with no problems.Yeah Right.
Do you or anyone else on here know anything about a seed called Rape?
I plant it here in my Food Plots for Deer.It is a plant that is very high in protein.35%.Now that I had my lesson in the wheat thing I am wondering if maybe this might be the problem with some plots being eaten better than others.
Someone said to feed my rollers some of these seeds.I finally got the mill to carry this seed all the time as the Game Commission is now planting several of their fields with it.
I have been afraid to try it.Any info will be helpful.Thanks,David
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
364 posts
Jan 22, 2005
11:53 PM
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Dave, I have rape seed (canola) in a breeder/show mix I developed which Leaches Grain now sells. It is an oil seed they use to make canola oil as is very high in fat. But being such a small seed, virtually smaller than red millet, they have to eat a lot of it to show any effect such as gaining too much weight. I give some of this mix to my kit birds every now and then if they have been working hard for a while and they cut their fly time short. They were raised on this particular mix and gobble each and every seed (nine different ones) up like candy. I've not seen any effect pro or con when given only once or twice as a quick pick me up. But if they were fed on it routinely, I would say they would probably sky out. If you can't get safflower where you live, rape seed is a good alternative, especially during the molt.
Brian.
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Bluesman
83 posts
Jan 23, 2005
4:28 AM
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Brian; I was just asking in another thread where you have been.LOL What all grains make up your 9 grain mix?
I feed a 6 grain mix made from Buckeye.Fairly good mix but I have been finding that there is so much variation in the mix from when I got the last time.Sometimes they are heavy on the peas,sometimes Milo or wheat and some bags have been heavy on that little white one.Millet I think.Hard to control the kits when things are not the same in each bag.I have got to find a site on the web that has pics of all these grains and what protein,fat etc is.If anyone knows of such a site please post it here.Or email me.Thanks for the info.David
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viper
25 posts
Jan 23, 2005
7:29 AM
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Next time your in a store that sells pet feed go look at thebird seeds in the bags for the differant birds it will say whats in them and the differant proteins in them.Blake Utah
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Mother lode lofts
391 posts
Jan 23, 2005
8:35 AM
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Dave what I found about commercial mixes was that they allways had things things in it that I didn't want. Some had popcorn, some were heavy Milo based and plus I didn't trust what you found which was consistancy on what was used.
I buy only the straight grains. Here's what I keep ::: Austrian Peas, Milo, Wheat,Salflour , and I keep Millet on hand. Wheat I will buy 5 to one over everything eles as I feed a lot straight Wheat to the fliers and when I do mixes it is also used as the base. With those grains I can do everything I want. I can do Young bird mixes, I can do light protien mixes,heavy protien mixxes, during the moult I can heavier fat mixes (Salflour), I can feed straight Wheat or I can feed Wheat/Milo mixes. What ever your hearts desire you can do.
If I lived in a heavy with extream cold I would add Popcorn to that list. Here when we hit Freezing temps at night I'll use Salfflour for the heat.
My breeders get lay pellets and I found some that keep the droppings like grain fed or close to it. After doing it this way for some time I can't even see going back to commercial mixes.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 23, 2005 11:12 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
365 posts
Jan 23, 2005
7:31 PM
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Hey David. I've been around..lol. The mix you are asking about consists of austrian peas, milo, red millet, canary mix, safflower, rape, wheat, oat groats and popcorn. That is for my breeders and my show birds. I don't give it to the flyers except for a treat or pick me up if they are ran down or in a heavy juvenile molt. My flyers get wheat/milo/austrian peas which I buy separate and mix according to the weather. Basically when it is cooler I add more peas to it. During the summer molt I put my A-team away for two months so they can molt and during this time they get nothing but the breeder mix which helps them grow great feathering and really puts some body on them. Hope all is well up your way.
Brian.
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Bluesman
94 posts
Jan 24, 2005
5:35 AM
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Brian.Thanks for the info.Everything is going good here except for the Snow,Cold and a couple of Cooper's.This pair is the smartest hawks I have ever seen.Mother Nature lulled me into thinking we might have a mild winter.Last 2 weeks of Dec.and first week of Jan.the temps never got below freezing.It went from 65 high one day to 30 the next.It is 4 degrees this morning.
I jumped the gun and have all my breeders either mated,on eggs or have young.So far so good but it is hard keeping ahead of the cold.Nothing like what Thor has.Wow.When the temps get in the teens this old boy stays inside except to feed & water.Can,t take the cold anymore.
As always I can,t wait to see what the next generation will turn out.LOL David
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