BULLFROG
1 post
Jan 09, 2005
9:19 AM
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I AM GETTING BACK INTO ROLLERS I HAD ALWAYS BEEN A BACKYARD FLYER BUT NOW I WANT TO COMPETE. I HAVE MOVED WHERE THERE ARE NO RACERS AND THE NEAREST SHOW IS 200 MILES AWAY BUT WE HAVE A GOOD ROLLER CLUB HERE. I HAVE BIRDS FROM THREE GOOD LINES AND AM CURRENTLY PURCHASEING ONE MORE LINE. I PLAN TO KEEP THESE LINES SEPERATE AND FLY THEM TO SEE WHICH ONES I LIKE. MY QUESTION IS THIS SHOULD I FLY THESE ADULT BIRDS AND CULL THEM RIGHT AWAY OR LET THEM NJUST BREED AND CULL THE YOUNGSTERS AND THE BREEDERS BY THE YOUNG? I ONLY HAVE 4 TO 7 PR OF EACH FAMILY. THANKS CHRIS
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JUrbon
43 posts
Jan 09, 2005
10:01 AM
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Bullfrog, I personally think that it will take entirely to much time to weed through 4 families when you have 7 pair of each. in that situation I would fly the old birds and keep the best quality and cull the rest. It is hard enough to breed good birds when you have seven pair of one family to focus all of your time on. I also feel that nothing should be in a stock loft that you have not seen fly. Dont take somebody elses word when it comes to stock birds unless you are purchasing proven stock pairs and that is pretty rare. Fly them out and stock the best. Just my thoughts though. Joe Urbon
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Mother lode lofts
342 posts
Jan 09, 2005
2:47 PM
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I'm with Joe , it'll take for ever to figure out whats what. Somehow you need to grade through them and hone it in. Possibly find someone that you know has the experiance and expertise to do "some" grading off of the perch. Either that or go with who ever the best flyer/breeder is on one of the families which would be your best bet. As it is I believe that you are going to have a mess breeding out of 21 pair of different families and trying to figure it all out. It is certainly nothing that I would look forward to.
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BULLFROG
2 posts
Jan 09, 2005
2:52 PM
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OK I WILL FLY THEM ALL AND PICK FROM THERE. I KNOW BETTER THAN TO BREED ACROSS FAMILYS BUT FLYING DIFFRENT FAMILYS ISNT VERY GOOD EITHER IS IT? SOMER OF THESE BIRDS I HAVE PICKED FROM THE AIR AND OTHER I HAVE PICKED BASED ON THE BREEDERS PERFORMANCE. THAT MAKES IT TOUGH TO JUNK ALL THE BIRDS. WELL I GUESS I GOT MYSELF INTO A MESS ALLREADY AND I HAVENT EVEN BEGUN!!!!!!! THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP. CHRIS
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RodB
19 posts
Jan 09, 2005
3:12 PM
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Hi
I think you can breed from the adults , if
1)They are a pure family and there breeding is true and correct .
2) They are brothers and sisters to the breeders best birds.
If you cannot get outstanding flyers to start with which is the norm in most circumstances when chasing any performance animal , In the beginning I think the most important thing you want is true breeding as not to many breeders are going to part with thier best performing birds so you need to get birds as closely bred to his best as you can , the traits you are after are carried in every bird in a tight pure family ,in the end what you have is ultimatly in direct relation to you as a selector and they will be a mirror reflection on you and how hard you can be on youself , the best breeding pairs are not always the best performers so you need numbers in the start , breed up a lot of stock from a pure family of birds and be brutal in the culling of the offspring , allow 2yrs for this stage to rollover and I,ll bet that after a few yrs you have some pretty good birds .
To tell the truth I would rather go the way you are going than have one or two birds that are great flyers so long as they are from a pure family that produces winners and have been doing it for a long time , from a breeding angle Im looking for the prepotent click breedings and many times this doesnt come from the best in air performers .
The very fast breeding rate of these birds means you can get somewhere quick , you should try this with dogs where you only breed one or two litters a yr and can wait up to 3 yrs to get a real hook on an individuals true quality .
This is why in dogs to breed a great family takes the lifetime of two men and there is only a handfull of dog familys in the world that have this depth of breeding .
Good luck
Rod
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BULLFROG
3 posts
Jan 09, 2005
4:08 PM
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OK THEN LET ME ASK YOU THIS. EVERYBODY HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE BEST FAMILY!!! HERES WHAT I HAVE AND YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK MAY BE THE BEST FAMILY. I HAVE 7 PR OF JOE ROE - HARDESTY BIRDS. 5 PR OF TURNER BIRDS FROM BOB MGUAN 5 PR OF TURNER BIRDS FROM DAVID STRAIT AND I AM PUCHASING 10 YOUNG BIRDS FROM RUBY ROLLERS. I CANT FIGURE OUT WHERE THESE BIRDS STAND IN THE WORLD OF "BEST FAMILYS"
I AM GREATFUL FOR ALL OF YOU FELLAS HELP CHRIS
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RodB
20 posts
Jan 09, 2005
4:49 PM
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To pinpoint the best familys in an of the cuff statement I would say they are close to the winners circle in open competion and have been for many generations , the term the best is a very personal thing , diamonds to one guy is junk to another and everybody would like to think they have diamonds but this is a human nature way of thinking , a realist way of thinking is to know that for every good one thier is many more no so good ones , a good family will produce a higher quality average than an ordinary family with the breeder constanly selecting the cream of the crop to carry on next year with the hope of improving the line in every breeding .
The only guide you have is open competition and who is doing what with what in that field , you want to stack the odds in your favor as much as possible so look to start where you want to finish and work backwards from there .
Rod
Bullfrog , capitol letters in forums is like shouting , maybe you should press your cap lock button :)
Last Edited by RodB on Jan 09, 2005 5:31 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
358 posts
Jan 09, 2005
6:41 PM
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Bullfrog, you've gotten some sound advice so far. But, I am the other side of the opinion, being my opinion is that I don't agree with starting with one family of birds. Its not the wrong thing to do, just not something I personally prefer. When you look at the big picture, the number of great families which have traded hands and founded other lofts of great birds is rather small in comparison to the number of birds spread around. Unless you are very familiar with a flyer and his family of birds, knowing the birds flown very well, then you must "test the waters" and find what works for you. It is my belief that testing multiple families is a good way to go. I did the very same thing when I got back into rollers. I had several families of birds available to me that all got the job done when I observed them. I ended up with four different families and over 25 pairings that year. I bred the crap out of them, 225 total that year and flew them hard. The best ones generally came from specific pairings and that ranged across all of the families. So some of the pairs were discarded and number of pairs decreased. Moving the pairings around to find out more about what they were capable of producing revealed even more traits, good and bad, then more were culled and eventually two families were discarded entirely due to low percentages of competition ready rollers. I stuck with the two base families that produced well and also am making another based on some great performers I raised from a cross of the families. Bottom line is I have plenty of rollers to fly that can hold their own on comp day, and I am happy that the percentages are increasing as well as the quality. Had I started with one "proven family" chances are if they had not fit what I wanted in a family of rollers, I would have to start all over again with a new family. If the second didn't work out either, guess what, that is at least 6 years down the drain as I look to start over yet again. It happens more than most will ever admit! I think you are on the right track PROVIDED you devote the time to the breeding and training them correctly, making good analysis of the different traits as the young develop and the percentages of those that produce what you are looking for. Cull the pairs that don't give you good rollers and cull those that don't meet your standard. Never believe anyone that tells you you can't fly different families together. It is pure BS. Start them out together as youngsters and you will have no problems. Keep an eye out for individuals from the same family showing certain traits like flying slow, flying too fast, showing good control, showing lack of control, bad and good kitters. I'm sure you get the point. To breed from multiple families very difficult. I won't lie to you, it takes a lot of paying attention to the details. But I think ultimately in a few years you will have a good idea of what family gives you what you want and which ones don't. If you just choose one to start with and it doesn't pan out, you have another to keep trekking on with. It does work, don't let anyone tell you differently!
Brian.
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BULLFROG
4 posts
Jan 09, 2005
9:55 PM
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first off rod thank you i am newer to the computer thanm iam to compition rollers so sound advice well taken. im begining to see that there are so many views on rollers that it makes a guys head spin. brian when you say you had many multiple pairings do you mean mateing one cock to a hen and after the young are up moveing him to another hen?? if so what is the best way to remate them fast? i have a breeder loft that is 25 by 15 so space is not the issue. i have it divided into 4 rooms one for each family and am currently working on lining the walls with lock up breeder pens. i want all of you to know that i value each and every one of you guys opinions. i have had a hard time getting started due to the tight liped nature of the flyers i have met. thank you so much for all the help and i look forward to it in the future. you will be hearing alot from me as my adventure continues and if i play it right i will see you all at the world cup in a few years. hahaha
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
359 posts
Jan 09, 2005
10:41 PM
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Bullfrog, I meant 25 pairs, though I did move some birds around pairing-wise after getting 6 or 8 young off of certain pairs. Most of that breeding was done in individuals so repairing was quite easy after giving the specific birds about a week or so being broken up.
Brian.
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Cliff
13 posts
Jan 10, 2005
8:43 AM
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Bullfrog, Based on what I have seen in the competitions and in the lofts in my region, I would put a lot of emphasis on those Turner birds. I have no experience with the Hardesty family so I can't speak to them. It is no accident that Turner birds have been in so many winning competition kits over the years, and are in high demand, even by the guys who don't compete. They are a hot family; deep, fast and frequent and stability will be the main issue for you in culling and breeding. And don't believe some of the BS you read about color birds (as you know Turner is reknowned for color modifiers in his birds) being incapable of spinning. I watch twenty bird kits of his family roll with style, speed, depth and frequency a couple times a month (yes, even a few almonds!) I spent Saturday at Turner's lofts, and we were able to get some kits up in spite of severe hawk problems. It was a sight to behold. good Luck! Cliff
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fhtfire
86 posts
Jan 10, 2005
11:24 AM
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I agree with Brian...I am new and that is what I am doing. I got some birds from 4 different families and I am testing the waters...by seeing what the off spring do. The key is to keep very good records. Then depending on what family I like the best and fit my needs is the falmily I will choose and then I will dump the rest. So I have 8 pairs in my breeding loft. So far I am thinking that I will most likely stick with two families that have the same character and traits and go from there. For sure..test the water before you jump in!
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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Mother lode lofts
344 posts
Jan 10, 2005
12:28 PM
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I think that the difficulty is with trying to sort through so many pairs rather than families. It is probably best to fly all together and what works, work and what doesn't doesn't. Many work with differant families and those that don't have have lines within the family. When you start new from scratch it is all nothing more than stepping stones anyway.
PS Cliff I am curious about "stability being the main issue" Why do you think this is ?
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 10, 2005 12:45 PM
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Cliff
14 posts
Jan 10, 2005
2:47 PM
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Scott, Stability, to me, means the bird's ability to resist or control the roll impulse. Stiff birds seem to have the most "stability" and roll less frequently, with poorer style and less deep. The more we breed towards frequency, and depth genes in a family, the more we breed away from "stability". We are breeding towards a thin line between; a) stiff birds, b) birds with style, depth and frequency with just the right measure of control and stability, and c) birds that are roll downs with little or no stability. I would prefer to work with managing stability by culling and breeding towards stability in a hot family like Turner's and feeding them up with more protein for better control rather than working with stiff birds searching for roll impulse beyond a few flips, or breaking them down and starving them. I tried that for too many years!
Last Edited by Cliff on Jan 10, 2005 2:54 PM
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Steve S.
31 posts
Jan 10, 2005
3:41 PM
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Cliff,
Would you please fill me in on the big flys that James Turners birds have been in that have won?
Other than a few Jay Yandell had in his 11 bird team fall before last.
There has been no Turner birds in any World Cup kit that I know of and I have talked to and know all the winners of the W/C.
Maybe it is as you say the guys that don't compete.
Interesting.
Steve
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Mother lode lofts
345 posts
Jan 10, 2005
4:21 PM
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Actually Cliff Stiffs suck no doubt but the roll can also be first class depending on the family. On the same hand over frequent birds suck also and you will see it in the qaulity as the these type of birds generally roll weak and when they do lock it up they tend to have problems un-locking, either that or they tend to fight the roll (wing switching). In other words it "is" a fine line. I can set my birds up to be very frequent but it costs me in the qaulity department if I over do it as they want to fight it. Instablity is due to being mentally weak , you'll see it in consistant bumping, kitting problems,out flying,fighting the roll,landing early and such. In other words they don't have the whole package. As for which would I rather have ? hmmm I would'nt want either one but if I had to choose it would probaby the hotter and try to fix it would be my answer. But it would be a frustrating process. Now here's another question, Why do some families have good frequency,depth,qaulity with no stability problems such as kitting problems,bumping,out flying landing early ect ? In other words the whole package. Cliff I think that birds with stability problems (hot) are one of the easiest that there is to breed for, same with stiffs. Personally I'm not a big fan of birds that have to be proteined up to keep off of the ground but nor am I fan of birds that need to be starved. I do like a bird that needs to be tuned though. Personally I think that the key is "trying" to run that line down the middle. Just rambling here and again just nothing but my opinion.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 10, 2005 4:48 PM
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Cliff
15 posts
Jan 10, 2005
5:03 PM
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Steve, Good to hear from you again! Jay's birds are almost exclusively Turner stock with a few Henry Cook birds. I should have taken more notes when guys like Turner himself, Joe Bob Stuka, Clay Hoyle, Don Simpson and Jay rattle off how many times they place and in which flys. I guess I take them at their word. And I am certain that not all the kits had all Turner birds in them. But when see the kits placing in comps and I talk with them about the families and outcrosses they use, Turner's name always seems to come up. (Some use a number of families) And after seeing them fly time and time again, in non-comp lofts, as well as competition kits, I like what I see. And after seeing a bird spin tight and fast for 30-40 feet every minute or so and I ask, "What is that bird out of?", they usually say, Turner's family in the blood line. So I have no axe to grind here, guys. I just know what I hear and see over and over. I have decided to work with this family and see what happens! Talk to me in a couple years!
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Mother lode lofts
346 posts
Jan 10, 2005
5:19 PM
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Ciff if you like them then that is all that matters. JoeBob has a lot of respect for Turner and I have a lot of respect for JoeBob so there ya go. Turner also breeds the pure stuff correct ? Personally If I was you I would be after what put the roll "into" the color stuff, what I'm wondering though is were "very hot" birds used for this.
Scott
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Cliff
16 posts
Jan 10, 2005
5:58 PM
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Scott, Good post. I appreciate your ramblin'.You always keep me thinkin' about what I'm doin'!When I told Bullfrog that I thought his 10 pair of Turner birds were worth putting some time into, I was indicating that, based on what I have seen, the birds tend towards frequency rather than stiffness. By no means would I characterize this family as a whole as "over-frequent and unstable, or mentally weak, weak in the roll with trouble un-locking the roll", as you alluded. Granted, those individual birds are a percentage of the progeny, as I said, 10-20%. But-Generalizations are usually dangerous and inaccurate. You kind of took a quantum leap to those conclusions on me. I have seen a large number of Turner birds that spin with superb frequency, depth, speed and style flown by guys who are not rookies. And I have heard the judges say they have never seen any better anywhere in the country. So I was not saying the family is unstable, just that he needed to keep an eye on it. Hell, don't you keep an eye on it in your own loft? It's that thin red line I was talking about. Regarding your questtion, "Why do some families have frequency, style, depth, quality and no stability problems?", I wasn't aware any existed in such a state of perfection! No culls??!! It's all relative, I guess, Scott, I just think that all families have issues with all of the qualities we are seeking in any given individual bird and it's just a matter of degree and semantics. This family is tight genetically, especially the Spreads, T-pattern checks, Indigos, Andalusians and Recessive Reds, which is the sub-family I have seen perform so consistently in so many regional lofts, and work with myself. So that's why I told Bullfrog to stick with them!I believe you guys have some kind of crazy misconception about Turner's family and color. See my post on the Ad3 list. Just my take on things! Cliff
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Mother lode lofts
347 posts
Jan 10, 2005
6:57 PM
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cliff I asked because that is how you wrote it, and also I've heard it from others. Like I said Cliff I was just rambling with some thoughts and was not commenting on anybodys birds imparticular, everything that I wrote about I can see in particular birds within my "own" family also. Cliff luckily we have a way of proving things out with the major flys. Good luck to you and enjoy.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 10, 2005 7:46 PM
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BULLFROG
5 posts
Jan 10, 2005
8:16 PM
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wow thats a lot of info. i love the diffrent ideas. when you talk about watching the control do you mean by culling any bird that seems loose and tempted for a rool down? or by the feed. what does protien have to do with the spin. makes them hotter and more high strung? i hate to sound like an idiot but the rollers are a whole new ball game for me in compitition. my homers were very straight forward and the show birds are also but there is so many things i am learning that i have to train for and watch for that as i learn on i will find another to ask about.thanks for the vote on the turner birds. i have invested a good bit into these birds. i had pensoms when i was younger but i think i wasted them!! i was happy to get a dish rag or a 10 ft spin out of them. i want to once agian thank you all for the insight of experiance.. chris
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BULLFROG
6 posts
Jan 10, 2005
8:20 PM
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just a quick note on color. when i was akid they told me i couldnt race white homers. they said the color birds cant win!!!!! i have a line of janseens that have proved those old boys so wrong that they are now buying my " cant fly" colors to try and be competitive. i dont care about the color but if its preaty my wife likes it and if my wife likes it i am happy. this was not a consideration in chosseing the turner birds but it sure is a plus!!! chris
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RolyPoly
29 posts
Jan 11, 2005
6:34 AM
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Chris, had to laugh about your wife liking colors, because that is the way it is with me, being the wife of Phil, who likes the character and work of the bird, while I like to see all the "pretty colors." Our winter squeakers look like twins to me -- is that a possibility? Both are ash red bars with white wings and underparts and red heads. Thanks to all for the info. Phil and Debbie
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Siddiqir
138 posts
Jan 11, 2005
7:33 AM
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Hello, I got kit of Turner's birds 2 years ago and was not happy with them. They were medium size birds with big keel. I did not see any good in them. I did not get those birds straight from Turner but from some where else but the person told me that they are from Turner's stock. Nice colorful birds but not good "Rollers". No offense but that is what I experience with those birds.
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BULLFROG
9 posts
Jan 11, 2005
7:58 AM
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you say that your birds were medeium with big keels? the turner birds i have are very small with a short keel. they are inthe kit box now and i will fly them in about 5-7 days. i will keep you folk posted as to how they perform. can a family of birds produce such a wide diffrence in body with out haveing other blood crossed in? has anybody here flown the ruby strain of rollers? what can you tell me about them? chris
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Siddiqir
139 posts
Jan 11, 2005
8:12 AM
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BULLFROG, they may be well crossed in. Even though they were originally from Turner's stock but I do not consider as Turner stock because the person I got birds from probably working with them for years (mating, judgements, crossing it for colors etc)...so they no longer Turner birds. You may have pure Turner birds.
Last Edited by Siddiqir on Jan 11, 2005 9:07 AM
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Mother lode lofts
349 posts
Jan 11, 2005
8:30 AM
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I think that pegging someones name onto birds that came out of someone elses loft is a big mistake as who knows what else was crossed or how the birds were selected and bred. It isnt hard to destroy a family of birds. A good example is there is one guy that advertises "Neible Opals" folks there is no such thing and is an obvious cross so therefore why is the Nieble name being used ? just an example but you get my drift.
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Siddiqir
140 posts
Jan 11, 2005
9:15 AM
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Correct Scott, people use names of well know flyers to have sell going...when practically you consider birds as "your family", they have to original come from some one but after how many years or generations you call them your family or associate with your name
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J_Star
136 posts
Jan 11, 2005
9:56 AM
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In regard to this topic, I will only purchase a family of rollers from the breeder himself, not others breeding that person family. For example, if I purchase rollers the Billings name on it, it will be from K. Billings himself ( I hope I spelled the last name correctly). Same as Horner's birds, only from danny himeself. That way you are deeling with the true family not imposters. Exception is if I truly trust the breeder of other breeder family. Other than that, it is just wasting money and time. That is only my opinion. Thanks.
Jay
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Cliff
17 posts
Jan 11, 2005
2:29 PM
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Steve S.-I checked the NBRC Fall Fly finals scores and I see that Jay placed sixth in the eleven bird competition this year using exclusively Turner birds, again. I was present at the final fly and a hawks caused his birds to sky out beyond scoring range for much of the comp time, yet he still managed 6th place. So that's a win two years ago, and in the top ten each year since. Clay placed fifth after loosing 80% of his comp kit to hawks. He has Turner blood in his birds, but also Horner and several other outcrosses. He doesn't seem to believe in staying strictly within one family. I'll post other results for you when I run accross them since you asked. Hey, I was up in your neighborhood over Christmas. Well, actually, Canton, Ohio...a long way away. My mother passed away on Christmas day so I was pretty tied up and not much in the mood for visiting. But I'd like to swing by and meet you and see some birds fly when I visit my brother's family next summer! Cliff
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Mother lode lofts
352 posts
Jan 11, 2005
7:45 PM
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Wow Cliff not a good Christmas. Sorry for your loss , that is a hard one no doubt.
Scott
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BULLFROG
11 posts
Jan 11, 2005
10:33 PM
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first cliff i offer you my condolances on your loss.
i have another question. big supprise huh!! i ahve 12 birds that are of unknown parentage and blood that are 50 ft + bombers tight and fast however when flown together they dont kit.. not even half way they are so spread out you could fly a plane between them. i have gheard of the 11 bird kits that were more for the indivdual performance is this correct? is kiting a genetic trait or is it more haveing never been flown together? thanks to all chris
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Steve S.
32 posts
Jan 12, 2005
3:37 PM
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Hello Cliff,
I am truely sorry about the loss of your mother.
Anytime your up this way we will fly some birds.
We will go over to my cousins John Bender and a few of the fellas around here and watch some good kits.
I also have some kin in southwest Canton.
I watch the fly records and am aware of Clays and Jays scores.
We talk from time to time on the various roller lists and chat rooms.
I understand that they placed in them.
When I read your first post It was my impression that you were conveying that Turners birds had won the big flys.
Sorry for the mix up.
I am not dissing Turners birds.
I don't like their makeup.
I probably don't have a kit as good.
I just don't care for anything outside the Pensoms.
Later
Steve
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