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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
New birds not performing.
New birds not performing.
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Ally Mac
12 posts
Dec 12, 2004
1:21 PM
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I have just settled another cock and hen, both came via a reputable club. I flew them yesterday and today, the cock did a couple of tumbles, the hen nothing.
I have been told birds that have flown before being settled may not perform as they did before? I am starting to get a bit down hearted, out of the 12 birds i have bought in the last 6 months only 3 are rolling with any sort of depth and style.
Is it worth breeding the non performers? or do i concentrate on the 3 rollers, 2 cocks and one hen?
Alla advice appreciated.
Al.
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C.J.
13 posts
Dec 12, 2004
1:52 PM
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If only three are going to perform then those are the only three you use in your breeding program. Breeding non performers is just a waste of time. You will only become more frustrated then you are already. I would like to ask you a few questions. Did you see the birds fly before you bought them? Or were you just going by word of mouth? I am interested you say they came via a reputable breeder, did they come directly from the fancier or through someone else? It is very easy for someone to say oh these birds came come so and so. You need to be very aware of who you are dealing with. You should always see the birds in the air. Then you know exactly what you are getting. Any fancier worth his salt will want you to see his lifes work fly. Never by a bird on ther perch or in a cage. It may be a good roller but then it may not. It prevents the hard feelings. Have you contacted the guy you bought them from? If he is truely reputable then he will gladly replace them. No one who is serious about their rollers wants bad birds or bad deals attached to their names. I hope this helps. C.J.
Just my two cents!!
Last Edited by C.J. on Dec 12, 2004 1:55 PM
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J_Star
112 posts
Dec 12, 2004
4:22 PM
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I agree with C.J. all the way, and I would like to add that give the birds more flying time b4 you judge them and see if they will come around. I say about couple of weeks of flying.
Jay
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Bill
8 posts
Dec 12, 2004
5:16 PM
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Ally, If you could be more specific it would help to get some real good advice from the flyers. Are these young birds? Or were they sold to you as breeders? It can depend alot on how old they are and how much the guys flew them. I have taken the long way to get birds. I got birds from three guys who had simular birds. Old Jaconette line. They all had Jacs in their birds so that was a plus. But none the less I didn't see any of them fly. I bred from all of them to see what the off spring would do, then swithced the pairs around and continue now.
I had purchesed a few as 1 year old kit birds but never flew them. So I am picking out breeders from the birds I have already and some day will not need the old breeders anymore if the new off spring will reproduce good birds. If not I can always go back to the old breeders and try a new pairing. I have this year gotten some better birds from a friend and think this will help me go to a beter level with the birds I have and will focus on the new birds offspring to add quality and depth to what I have.
If you purchased 12 birds, were they squeakers that you have been flying to see what they would do? Or did they sell you birds to breed from and didn't know you wanted to fly them out and test them. If it was a reputable person or club as you said, then you might do better to raise young and fly them to find out what the breeders are going to produce. If some one raised some birds and didn't fly them out for the first three or four months or longer, then the development in them may be greatly reduced, even though they might produce rollers. I had a few birds my first year that I didn't fly until next spring and when I raised more birds in spring, the younger spring born birds developed at 4 to 7 months and the older birds didn't start to roll until late in the fall into the next year. They all came from the same breeders. If you know someone who has good birds and they trust you ( to care for them and not ruin them) they can be a big help. Many guys won't give good birds to a new guy incase he ruins them. I have seen new guys go both ways, now I understand why it can be hard for some to get good birds. However if you pay top dollar you can always get great birds from those who sell birds. They are not the only ones with good birds, but it helps a guy living in Death Valley 100 miles away from any club to get some good birds and enjoy them. One thing is for sure, you have to have patience to develop rollers from any fancier. Even the best of birds can be less in performance if not properly flown and fed. You said you flew the birds the day before. Have they been flying for months or days? All this detail information can help the guys to give you a straight answer. I have tried to give you options with your birds compared to what I have done. What is the back ground of the birds you have, pensom, mason, harris, Higgins ect? Their age.? How long you have flown them? This informaiton will help. Good luck Bill
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Ally Mac
13 posts
Dec 13, 2004
2:36 AM
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Thanks for the replies. All my birds were bought for flying (I thought).The last 2 birds birds came through the Scottish flying breeds club, I was told they were from a sound guy. They are this years birds and were flying before I got them though I did not see them. Due to where I stay it is not easy to get anywhere to watch birds, they usually come by post.
Having just started with rollers this summer I am very much a learner. I am however making progress and enjoying controlling the birds with feed etc. The 3 that are rolling really get me going when they start.
A. I have 3 birds rolling, 2 year olds, 2 cocks and one hen. From one family.
1 hen, this years bird, flown it 3 times, rolled down 3 times, from the above family.
B. 2 youngsters, 1 cock, 1 hen, starting to roll, from another family.
C. 1 cock, a youngster I think, just tail rides, the odd flip. From another family.
D. 2 youngsters, one cock, one hen, From another family, just got them and flown them twice, not much action atall.
Just looking at the above list I can see the problem I have, to many families?
My predicament is, do I concentrate on families A & B? not the roll down. Is it worth breeding the 2 from family D?
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Siddiqir
128 posts
Dec 13, 2004
6:40 AM
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Al, you may want to read this article from Rick Mee. It is about how to get started and build true kit of performance rollers.
Concert Performance
Thanks, -Rauf
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Ally Mac
14 posts
Dec 13, 2004
8:56 AM
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Thanks Rauf, thats a very interesting article.
Next problem is the 3 birds rolling do roll but are not what you would call a click pair (threesome).
Is it a fruitless task persevering with them, or if i keep breeding best to best etc. should they come good through time.
Al.
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Siddiqir
129 posts
Dec 13, 2004
11:09 AM
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Al, for your last question you may want to read this article. There are two pages.
Breeding Winners
By doing inbreed (best to best) you will get all capital alphabets which is referring to Champion
LL HH MM RR AA.........Champion Pigeon
There are posts from top fanciers like Scott C. and others who said inbreed if not done correctly will get to dead end. I did not understand what they are really referring too, if doing best to best that should take out all weak characters (lower alphabets) and give better offspring. They may shed some light on inbreeding method and what are conditions which cause dead end
Thanks, -Rauf
Last Edited by Siddiqir on Dec 13, 2004 11:11 AM
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Ally Mac
15 posts
Dec 14, 2004
3:03 PM
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Thanks Rauf, another interesting article. I am going to try and digest it now, then do some serious thinking.
Thanks again.
Al.
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Bill
9 posts
Dec 15, 2004
10:55 PM
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hello Ally, If I was you I would breed the adult birds that most looked similar to each other, except I would put white or light colors with dark or checkers. I would use all of what you have, unless you wanted to continue to fly the D birds ( young birds ). It is always best to fly them to elimanate the out birds and roll downs. If you raise two rounds, then switch the pairs around and raise two more. Then you would have half brother and half sisters to pair with if they are exceptable to you as breeders.
Inbreeding will bring out the best qualities and the worst qualities in your birds, so it is not very safe unless you have exceptionally good breeders. It would be best to breed several and pick out the best you can breed in the next three years and then find the best cock and hen and begin to breed them closer, like son to mother or niece to father and cousins. If you are starting out you can pair them by mixing them up and pick out only the best rollers to breed from for the next generation. If you inbreed close and have an out bird or roll down you could end up with half or most of your birds not kitting together. Subscribe to the NBRC magazine at www.NBRConline.com and get their magazine. It is full of information on breeding, disease and raising young birds. It will be most helpful to you. I just told a friend to look in the July-Aug 04 issue on Page 48 and it talk about young birds in the yellow silk age and if the butt smiles it is a boy and if it looks like the butt is frowning its a girl. It said it really works. Well there is much better stuff to read than that and it will help. You could even get some back issues to read. Plus keep asking questions here and we will all contribute to help anwsering your questions. Basiscally you should just concentrate on raising young birds to fly and pick out the best in the next few years and breed from them. It takes that long to get going for most of us. Now if you get more birds, you might want to try and get 10 to 20 squeakers to train and fly. This way you will see what they can do and not have to wait one or two years to see what the breeders will produce. Keep track of the band numbers ( put bands on all the young you raise and write the parrents down on paper and keep track of the with good records and you will be helped later on.) If you get some young birds and fly them you might get one or two of the best birds that guy will raise that year if they came from his good pairs. Does any of this make sense to you? Good luck. BIll
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Ally Mac
16 posts
Dec 16, 2004
11:18 AM
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Bill.
Thank you for your reply. That sounds like a decent way ahead. I really just need to know it is worthwhile proceeding with the birds i have. I shall give it a go, who knows, i might be pleasantly surprised.
The chap who gave me the 3 birds that are performing said he would give me a couple of squeakers in the new year, I will speak nicely to him and try for more than a couple.
Just going to have a look at the site and probably subscribe to the mag as you suggest.
Thanks again, things seem a bit clearer in my head now.
Al.
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