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Cross breeding


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Raul Carreiro
97 posts
Aug 18, 2010
6:06 PM
Eventually this is what you end up with when you crossbreed LOL!
Raul.Photobucket
JC
28 posts
Aug 18, 2010
8:04 PM
I got one of those
katyroller
747 posts
Aug 18, 2010
8:40 PM
Looks like a Budapest x Birmingham Roller cross.
Tracey
George R.
384 posts
Aug 18, 2010
8:51 PM
According to some breeders if it rolls its can be considered a Birmingham Roller.
gotspin7
2698 posts
Aug 19, 2010
4:31 AM
Raul,

What breed is that? Looks very unique.

Thank you,

Sal Ortiz
Sound Rollers
395 posts
Aug 19, 2010
4:33 AM
George, lol.

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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2497 posts
Aug 19, 2010
7:07 AM
According to some breeders, if it doesn't roll or kit, or if it flips like a tumbler or flies like a commie, and is unable to produce rollers that can do any better, it is still considered a Birmingham Roller based only on its Pedigree. I hear Pensom has rolled over in his grave because of this absurd notion.
Cliff

Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2010 7:21 AM
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2499 posts
Aug 19, 2010
8:19 AM
George
Maybe this will help us understand why there are different ideas on how to define the term " BIRMINGHAM ROLLER":

" So in reality the Pensom Roller is not a new type Roller but the old original Roller brought to a higher degree of perfection in and around Birmingham, its place of origin. The best Roller fanciers in England state that any bird that rolls is entitled to be called a Roller.......BUT THE NAME ..... BIRMINGHAM ROLLER..... should be used to designate these birds that perform in accordance with the high standards set for these Rollers in their place of origin......"
P. 45 The Birmingham Roller Written by Ray Perkins.
From statements like this and others, I believe that the Breed of pigeons commonly called BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS, are better defined by their performance than anything else.
Pedigrees don't fly, Colors have nothing to do with performance, and we all have choices to make. I begrudge no man, his choice of the family of rollers he chooses to fly.
Cliff

Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2010 8:19 AM
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4185 posts
Aug 19, 2010
2:58 PM
Cliff, do you remember this quote from Thomas Sowell that I posted back in 2008?

Quote: "For all the critics out there:

"The beauty of doing nothing is that you can do it perfectly" ...by Thomas Sowell"

Now we all won't win the World Cup or National Fly, maybe not even win our local clubs comps, but we can all develop our own strain of rollers that represent the best of our knowledge, vision and passion for the Birmingham Roller, IF we have the intestinal fortitude to do it. Unfortunately, not everyone has the hueuvos to put their nuts on the table with their own creation while others try to pound the daylights out of them.

The true winners in the roller hobby as far as I am concerned are the ones who try something new and fail than to have tried nothing and to have utterly succeeded.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria


The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
Hector Coya
687 posts
Aug 19, 2010
4:47 PM
Good quote Tony



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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
Sound Rollers
396 posts
Aug 19, 2010
5:08 PM
Cliff, I think Pensoms number one goal was to produce a true Birmingham Roller by definition, I quote;
"I would like to point out that the Birmingham is bred for its individual qualities and is valued for same. It is not bred just to make up the number of a busy kit of tumblers. It has some very special characteristics of its own which have to be present, otherwise it is only a Birmingham roller in name."
W. H. Pensom


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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2500 posts
Aug 19, 2010
8:21 PM
Well said, Tony...and I especially like that Wayne Dyer quote.

John,
Good point. No doubt about it. Pensom differentiated the true Birmingham Roller by its performance. I have no argument with that Quote from WHP.
I believe there is enough written evidence for me to understand that a "TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER" is nothing more than a common Roller that performs to a higher level.
" The English breeders, and they were the originators of the Birmingham Roller, are exemplified today by W.H. Pensom of Birmingham England. This world renowned breeder works on the theory that quality of performance is the essential characteristic of the true Birmingham Roller and that the proper frequency of performance is also a requisite. To be worthy of THE DESIGNATION of ... Birmingham Roller, Pensom states the bird should roll straight down, like a falling ball, with inconceivable rapidity."
P. 44 the Birmingham Roller Pigeon , Ray Perkins.

Cliff

Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2010 8:22 PM
George R.
385 posts
Aug 19, 2010
9:35 PM
Cliff

If everyone went by your theory then that would mean that a Purebred labradors that are registered by the A.K.C. are not considered Labrador's if the Lab does not Field Birds.

a breed is defined by blood not by performance If I have a purebred greyhound but i dont race him does that mean he is no longer a greyhound ? of course not.

the Birmingham Roller is a breed regardless if the Bird turns over one time or Hundreds .

You are just trying to legitimize a bird that is not 100% Birmingham roller = MONGREL.

Any Bird or Dog that is crossbred is a Mongrel .
There is nothing wrong with that ,I have had some real good Mutt Dogs in our Family that I miss to this Day .
The problem is when people start telling newbies that if you breed a Scandroon with a Roller and then breed the offspring back to apure Roller for a few generations they are Now considred Birmingham Rollers.

Try calling the Thuorobred Club of America or the UKC or the AKC and ask them if they would ever register a Dog or Horse that has been bred with a diferent Breed .

They would laugh at you .

And as far as having cajones to put two breeds together and creating a Mongrel anyone can do that . it takes balls to open the kit Box door and let your fellow fancier see what your Birds can do in the Sky. Not many dudes want to compete because they dont want to get emberrassed .

Cliff this is from Wiki copy it and paste it to your loft door.LOL

The Birmingham Roller is a breed of domesticated pigeon that originated in Birmingham, England, where they were developed via selective breeding, for their ability to do rapid backward somersaults while flying.[1] As the name suggests and as also mentioned by Wendell Levi in his book The Pigeon, this breed was developed in and around the City of Birmingham in England. The Birmingham Roller has a flying type and a show type. Show Rollers are larger than the flying variety, and are bred just for show. A similar breed called a Parlor Roller look much like Birmingham Rollers, but can't fly...they spin back somersaults on the ground for many yards. Oriental Rollers are another aerial performer and come in many color varieties. Some fanciers fly their rollers in competition, both locally and nationally. There is even a World Cup competition that includes several other countries. Kits (group of pigeons) are scored for quality and depth, as well as the number of birds in a turn.

With about 10,000 breeders around the world, Birmingham Rollers are a very popular breed of domesticated, performing pigeon. Fanciers are found from as far as the deserts of Kuwait, to the marshy backwoods of Louisiana. From the concrete jungle of the Bronx to the asphalt, palm-lined streets of Los Angeles, roller fanciers number in the thousands in the United States alone. Breeders come in all ages and backgrounds, from the kid breeding out of a makeshift pen in the backyard, to the organized and elaborate setups of today's well known veteran breeders.

Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2010 9:58 PM
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4188 posts
Aug 20, 2010
2:20 PM
George, the wikipedia page on BR was put together by Rick Mee...correct me if I am wrong. What he has put up is as authoritative as if you did it.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria


The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2501 posts
Aug 20, 2010
7:41 PM
George
The Birmingham Roller, is as far as I know, the ONLY creature that is considered a BREED that is determined by its performance, so your examples are irrelevant.That is not MY criteria or MY theory. I have read and quoted on this site in other discussions, an article where William H Pensom stated that if two birds were from the same nest and one performed to his standard for a True Birmingham Roller and the other only tuimbled; that only the one with adequate performance would be called a True Birmingham Roller. The other he called a mere tumbler. Both were Rollers but only one would display the defined performance to receive the designation of True Birmingham Roller. These are not my words, but Pensom's. Perhaps you think you and NIck Siders are better equipped than Pensom to define what a True Birmingham Roller is.

I am not trying to convince anyone about anything. I am merely sighting the literature as sources. The books are out there for each of us to read and find the best meaning we can. For me, I feel that the BR is a performance-based Roller and it earns that title in the air, not by pedigree. But everyone is free to believe however they choose. If you want to call your stiffs and tumblers Birmingham Rollers based on their pedigree....go for it. I'm just saying that is not what Pensom tried to teach us. We as a hobby can't hold Pensom up as the father of rollers in the US on one hand, and then only adopt or reject the things he said and taught that happen to suit our agendas.

I fly my birds and compete with them on many and all occasions possible.When Wiki starts writting the fly rules, when Wiki becomes WHP, or when Wiki starts entering the NBRC NCF and the WC, maybe then I will pay more attention to them. (Incidentally, Wiki is the WORST POSSIBLE resource to use in researching ANY fact. They will print anything that anyone sends them and they do not verify whether the information is correct.) But until then , I will continue to read the books and articles written about pigeons by those who know pigeons and have experience with them, and use them as the basis for many of my opinions. I recommend others do the same.

The main point I am trying to make is that... Until a roller can perform to standard, it is NOT a True Birmingham Roller. Only after a Roller can perform to standard , can it earn the title of a TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER. When People talk of getting Rollers, many say " Pick them from the air", and some say buy them by what you see on the pedigree. Which way do you do it, George? My family of birds contains many birds that qualify as True Birmingham Rollers. Scientifically, even though 30-40-50+ years ago someone may have crossed in a single generation of another breed of in order to import a gene modifier, the geneticists research reveals that after seven generations that the offspsring are 99.9% genetically pure and qualify to be registered as pure specimens of the original breed, regardless of the animal we might be talking about. That science is good enough for me. You may reject it because it does not suit your "purist" agenda. But your rejection doesn't change the truth of the science and the facts.

Whatever we do or do not believe, we all enjoy the performance our birds produce for us and our friends. And that is the bottom line.
I didn't write these books, I didn't come up with these crazy ways of defining a BR or what constitutes a breed genetically. And I darn sure didn't cross anything into my Rollers. I just fly 'em.
What Have I done Wrong? OH, yes.... I read the books and I made up my own mind. Because MY opinion differs from yours , I have committed a sin? LOL! Read the books and make up your own mind. Remember the pen has always been mightier than the sword.
Cliff

Last Edited by on Aug 20, 2010 7:47 PM
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
952 posts
Aug 20, 2010
8:09 PM
Cliff What do you call a parlor roller, Chopped Liver?JDA
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
953 posts
Aug 20, 2010
8:15 PM
Cliff....Maybe Ford in the 50's crossed in a Chevy to create the Edsel,And you know what happen to the Edsel.JDA
Sound Rollers
397 posts
Aug 20, 2010
9:24 PM
Cliff,

I think what your saying is; someone in Birmingham had a very good roller? and that bird is and or was the standard for all rollers.

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gotspin7
2701 posts
Aug 21, 2010
5:04 AM
List,

What crosses that any of these guys made since Bill Pensom shipped the first rollers to the united states, are better than the originals? Just wondering? I am not trying to hurt any ones feelings and if your feelings are hurt, please do not respond.

Thanks!
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Sal Ortiz
Scott
3125 posts
Aug 21, 2010
6:35 AM
Funny that no one ever questioned if it was a breed or not until some started polluting the breed with the so called rare color mutts...silly of coarse it's a breed.
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Scott Campbell

" God Bless "
George R.
386 posts
Aug 21, 2010
10:07 AM
Scott said

"until some started polluting the breed with the so called rare color mutts..."

THATS FUNNY !!!!!!!!!!
wafer kits
132 posts
Aug 21, 2010
11:13 AM
Guys; Move to Alabama and you can call all of your rollers Birminghams regardless of color or performance. Al
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4416 posts
Aug 21, 2010
12:31 PM
If a Racing Homer gets lost and does not return to its home it is no longer a Homer. If you are breeding Birmingham Rollers and the youngsters don't spin for several yards like a ball they are not Birmingham Rollers........is that how it shakes down, Cliff? That is the same thing that James Turner told me. Are you two friends?
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Think Outside The Box
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Nick Siders
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4417 posts
Aug 21, 2010
12:41 PM
"The Birmingham Roller, is as far as I know, the ONLY creature that is considered a BREED that is determined by its performance". That is the most ignorant thing I have read in a long time. The ONLY creature. A Thuroughbred that doesn't race is just a horse. A Birmingham Roller that doesn't roll is just a pigeon. The Homer pigeon that gets lost is just a pigeon. An English Setter that doesn't hunt is just a dog.
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Think Outside The Box
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Nick Siders
babyshoes
54 posts
Aug 21, 2010
1:29 PM
I dont understand why you guys quote Pensom so much he brought good pigeons into the country and 90% of them were bought only as good kits in england , and then sent to the usa and then you poor guys had to try and build families out of those birds not knowing what or where they came from , and you guys are so gulible that if pensom told you a roller had to have 11 primaries you would of taken it as the gospel , lmao
Ron
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4190 posts
Aug 21, 2010
1:36 PM
"TRUE" is only speaking to the sense of something being genuine, i.e. living up to the "standard" as opposed to a nest mate that does not live up to the standard and so is not "True" to the standard or is simply a mere "tumbler". The idea of the use of this word "True" is to create a contrast between the bird rolling right and a similar bird rolling wrong. That is all.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria


The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4191 posts
Aug 21, 2010
1:42 PM
Ron, Pensom is the only bonafide roller authority who has written extensively over a period of many decades and whose writings have mostly stood the test of time. Therefore he has earned respect and appreciation by many in the USA. As far as 11 primaries, what has he said that was proven incorrect by anyone? That's what I thought. LMAO!
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria


The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
George R.
387 posts
Aug 21, 2010
1:42 PM
Nick
I agree That kind of thinking is ignorant !!!
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
955 posts
Aug 21, 2010
2:09 PM
shoes of a baby...You know nothing of the original imports or where they went.So don't try tooting your horn.JDA
JMUrbon
1078 posts
Aug 21, 2010
4:22 PM
must we travel down this road again. I guess its kick Cliff week again. I think Cliff feeds his own birds and I have not seen him trying to peddle his birds. Further more he has stressed time and again that any and all crosses took place long befor he obtained the birds and in case you guys have not noticed. He has done quite well with them. If you dont like the Turner birds then by all means, DONT BUY THEM. Its repetative threads like this that are turning guys away from these sites. Nobody wants to read a bunch of bickering. Lets give it a rest. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/

Last Edited by on Aug 21, 2010 4:27 PM
babyshoes
55 posts
Aug 21, 2010
6:41 PM
Hey JDA i have personally spoke to people who sold birds to pensom, and they told me the story of how he use to buy the best of every bodies birds and put them in one big cage before shipping them to the
usa , i may know more about them than you do .
Ron
Sound Rollers
398 posts
Aug 21, 2010
7:37 PM
One if by land, two if by sea.

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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2502 posts
Aug 21, 2010
8:20 PM
Thanks, Joe. I'm glad somebody can see this thing clearly for what it is.

While WHP had no bones about his personal choice in colors, he also wrote these statements:
" As a footnote to the foregoing, I would add that, while my views regarding colors are my own, I feel it would be doing the fancy and the breed an injustice if encouragement was not extended to those fanciers who chose to cultivate those rich colored and gaily marked birds which have been so highly esteemed in the past. By all means let us maintain variety in color and markings. The "glamour" of the Birmingham Roller is probably the reason we have such a huge number of adherents.
P 64 WHP The Birmingham Roller Pigeon
" We can therefor estimate, without ant exaggeration, that from the total number of Birmingham Rollers bred, 90% are of no value whatever. A large number of these birds DO NOT DESERVE THE TITLE OF BIRMINGHAM ROLLER, as they do not possess the necessary qualifications."
P. 65 WHP The Birmingham Roller Pigeon

Note : this is from the year 1958 and the phrase "AND OTHERS" is not found on the cover. I am quoting from two different versions of a book with the same title

Cliff

Last Edited by on Aug 21, 2010 8:20 PM
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2503 posts
Aug 21, 2010
8:23 PM
John
I think "that" is what the Book, The Birmingham Roller Pigeon by WHP, is telling us. In that book, it describes how several different breeds of pigeons were bred together to start the long road to develop this Roller. And I think we are still trying to perfect this bred of pigeon.
I would recommend all of us read this little book and decide for ourselves what this knowledge means. It is a good starting point and a heck of a lot better than many of the old wives tales, we hear in some of these chat rooms.
I will venture to say that most of these Roller pigeon books are little more than the authors personal opinions and wisdom, and must be weighed against our own experience and knowledge. But never-the-less, a great place to start.
I think it was Paul who said that he thinks some of the old timers gave out bogus information just to confuse the new guys. I know some of these guys can tell some tall tales around here.
Cliff

Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2010 7:20 PM
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2504 posts
Aug 21, 2010
8:24 PM
Sal
Here is an interesting quote by Pensom P. 6 From the Birmingham Roller Pigeon.

" The range of colors and markings is great and UNLIMITED. Indeed, practically every known color may be had in varying degrees. In many cases the markings are not far removed from the high standard achieved by the Long Faced Tumbler, which is bred exclusively for exhibition."

So in the beginning someone thought that the roller should have any and all colors as well as the performance aspect? It seems that during this stage of development, there was little color bias to speak of.
Cliff

Last Edited by on Aug 21, 2010 8:25 PM
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2505 posts
Aug 21, 2010
8:27 PM
A Birmingham Roller that does not perform to standard is a tumbler and not a True Birmingham Roller .
Do we want a Birmingham Roller in name only or a True Birmingham Roller per the performance standard?
All Birmingham Rollers are Tumblers but not all tumblers are true Birmingham Rollers.
Only the really good fast deep tumblers can earn the title of True Birmingham Roller.
George R.
388 posts
Aug 21, 2010
8:31 PM
Cliff

You honestly think that a Breed is defined by its performance ?

I have a chihuahua that will retrieve anyting you throw that it can pick up with it's mouth.

do you think that the AKC will recognize my dog as a labrador retriever?.

So if a Modena pigeon can spin you would say it is a Birmingham Roller ?

Cliff everbody is entitled to thier own beliefs I thank you for clarifying your beliefs when it comes to Birmingham Rollers.

Everyone reading this post can decide for themselves .

Last Edited by on Aug 21, 2010 8:45 PM
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
957 posts
Aug 21, 2010
8:45 PM
Ron....You can show prof of what you have stated? Or is it second hand info no prof? Here are the original imports.

HRC 32.18 Blue Self Hen
HRC 32.5 Clay Hen
HRC 32.195 Blue Check Oddity Hen
HRC 32.166 Black Badge Cock
HRC 31.1Blue Badge Cock
HRC 30.464 White Black Neck Cock
HRC 30.885 Blue Saddle Cock
HRC 27.1007 Black Bald Cock

In 1932 Father Schlattmann of St Louis imported these 8 birds,and they are the originals.JDA
babyshoes
56 posts
Aug 21, 2010
10:21 PM
hey JDA did father Schlattman or pensom import those birds, and the info i got was from KEN White in my own back yard many years ago,how pensom opperated
and Ken sold birds to pensom.
Bill C
538 posts
Aug 21, 2010
11:19 PM
Raul, Where in the world did you get that picture, was it even on this planet? LOL I clicked on this post and really laughed tognight. Thank you for the bug eyes. I am thinking of putting that picture as my picture on Facebook, LOL, its just too much, I need a beer tonight Now! BIll C

Last Edited by on Aug 21, 2010 11:21 PM
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4418 posts
Aug 22, 2010
12:07 AM
Cliff, Your crap won't sell
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Think Outside The Box
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Nick Siders
Raul Carreiro
98 posts
Aug 22, 2010
5:09 AM
Bill C, I also fly English Tipplers and belong to a Tippler forum! The subject of cross breeding is also a hot potato with English Tippler fliers as there are many who are haphazardly crossing birds of different breeds to the English Tippler! I was looking on the Internet for a funny pic of a pigeon to post on the Tippler forum and found the one I posted here! I believe the bird is a Budapest. I t is interesting to note that in both the RPDC and English Tippler forum crossbreeding is a hot subject and debated with vigor!
Raul.
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
958 posts
Aug 22, 2010
6:03 AM
The birds above were imported to Father Schlattman from the loft of W.H.Pensom.JDA

Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2010 6:04 AM
gotspin7
2703 posts
Aug 22, 2010
6:19 AM
Cliff, just answer this question, then why if you interest is performance, would you cross birds to non-performance breeds? Now this is the part of the question most everyone that I have asked dances around. How does this non-performance breed help your birds spin? what do they bring to the table, higher velocity of spin? Better wing position? A tighter spin? Cliff, answer my question and I promise I will drop this subject for good and I will be honest in my head it just does not make sense. Thanks again for your time.
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Sal Ortiz
gotspin7
2704 posts
Aug 22, 2010
6:22 AM
Cliff, I apologize I re-read my post and I forgot to add a few that are very important as far as performance, does the cross also improve the pigeons depth or kitting ability? Also you missed it where Pensom stated how colors might affect the breed.. Just FYI...
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Sal Ortiz
George R.
389 posts
Aug 22, 2010
6:29 AM
if us breeders of the Birmingham Roller are supposed to believe only what is documented in a book , then we should all be breeding for TWIZZLERS.

I think there is a book where someone ? describes a TWIZZLER and says that it is a Champion.

Anyone here breeding for TWIZZLERS ?
JMUrbon
1080 posts
Aug 22, 2010
6:51 AM
George the person in questin regarding the twizzlers was trying to say that a true champion would spin, twizzle, plate and any other style you could imagine. I personally think its a bunch of crap and a twizzler or any other style other than a clean spin is dead at my house. Again I will step in on Cliffs behalf because I have read time and again that he has never crossed anything into his birds. Anything that was crossed was done long befor he got them. How is he supposed to answer these questions regarding the benefits of crossing something in for color other than to say it was strictly for color and to get the modifiers into the BR. I dont agree with this kind of breeding and would never own a bird with that sort of breeding in its background but that is a personal choice that only I can make. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Sammy W
31 posts
Aug 22, 2010
7:27 AM
This is just my opinion.I have been in canine training for several years.With all the working breeds over the years there has been drastic changes.They are all registered thru AKC.AkC sponsers shows and does nothing to improve the working ability of the breeds.For instance look at the German Shepherd.It use to be one of the very best at working and extremely intelegent.Now it has been so watered down to fit a show standard with deep red markings and black saddled back,not to mention how it's structure has changed.Look at the GS backs.They have breed them for color so much that they have been watered down so much that they can't work and also breed weak backs into them.Watch the next dog show and see how roach back the German Shepherd is in the rear.They don't use their rear feet to run they use the rear foreleg.
That is why I think we should never sacrifice performance for color.In doing so we will lose alot,that we may never get back.This is just my opinion.
Respectfully Sammy
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2506 posts
Aug 22, 2010
4:02 PM
Scott,
Who's questioning whether its a breed or not {other than NIck}
Cfliff
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2507 posts
Aug 22, 2010
4:04 PM
Not trying to sell anybody anything, just showing you where "I" get my information. During the life of WHP he grew in wisdom about these birds and some of his opinions on things changed. Some of his ideas are or confusing . But still I would rather base my opinions on his writings than old wives tales spouted on some chat room.
For me, our Rollers are cultivated tumblers, cultivated for velocity , style and depth, all of which are noted in the performance standard.
Until the NBRC addresses the breed standard, all we have in writing is a performance standard..... and books by WHP.
Most of us got into these birds for pleasure and enjoyment and I hope each of us can continue to do that.
Cliff


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