SWPP
1 post
Oct 07, 2004
8:27 PM
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I am a third generation Roller man and I must admit I don't really know what stran my dad and granddads birds were but they were consitant 180'ers at ease and a alot that would roll down and this was only to show off in the city at times as I can remember and this is in no way of saying they had the best birds by far but within the city they were had the best and our loft was like a mini aromored building with bars and light sensors that light up with any motion. I still have some of the "city rollers" that I went home to Southern Calif. and one of my dad pupils of yester-years "called Birdman" gave me with respect to my dad and these birds can't just roll, 90% keep hitting the ground from about 200' or so and I lost 3 due to the concreate road and the others hitting the trees and marsh land survived and I havn't flown them for about a year due to the degree of loss. Well if any one can help I truly love the deep rollers and the thrill it gives the croud but I don't want the "death" rollers that can't stop with in a given range. I hope this doesn't sound to off track for true breeders of the breed. I am intersted in investing into top notch birds, so if you qualify please let me know what sight I can go to and read up on the birds, be it world cup or state championship quialty birds.
Thanks Thomas
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Mother lode lofts
223 posts
Oct 07, 2004
8:37 PM
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Thomas you just described birds with major stability problems. there is no easier bird to breed than these. We all love deep birds but the fact is they can only go so deep and still maintain qaulity and speed. Without the latter two depth means nothing. and the same true for control.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Oct 07, 2004 8:55 PM
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SWPP
2 posts
Oct 07, 2004
9:10 PM
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Thanks Mother lode lofts,
I know there is a bunch of issues in the birds I have but I must admit that falling out the sky from such heights is a rush that can't be explained but I do want to do the right thing and aquire some top quality birds that don't roll to their deaths but roll deep as deep can be with the quailty of rolling one can admire (in control) I know this is going to be a long road but I am on a quest to get on the right track.
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Mother lode lofts
224 posts
Oct 07, 2004
10:28 PM
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Thomas think about it. We are talking about dead and injured birds. Where is the fun in that.
Scott
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J_Star
36 posts
Oct 08, 2004
7:01 AM
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SWPP,
With all I do respect and in no way being sarcastic, but I don't think you will find anybody on this site that breeds for such a trait. If this depth gives you a rush and you still would like to maintain the depth then maybe try to cross breed them with birds that have shorter roll and stability, maybe this would balance things out for you. Also maybe you want to out-cross with hi-flyers to get your birds to fly higher and when they roll so deep they wouldn't kill themselves. Or maybe a certain feed could make high flyer out of them.
Since you don't know the strain of the birds you have, I think you should consider calling the strain "The Suicidal Strain".
Think about this, how would your neighbors like it when those suicidals come down crashing on their cars or driveways? Maybe the first time they get disturbed but the second time, they will cause you allot of problems.
Your birds are like a car without brakes, How good is a car without brakes on 75 mph freeway? What would be your prediction when you leave point A to reach point B with that car?
Good Luck
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Oct 08, 2004 7:03 AM
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redneckhippie15
26 posts
Oct 08, 2004
3:36 PM
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one word "CARBOHYDRATES"
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redneckhippie*blue dot lofts*
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Mother lode lofts
225 posts
Oct 08, 2004
3:43 PM
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Well Red you got the first letter right but wrong word.
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JUrbon
11 posts
Oct 08, 2004
8:08 PM
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Thomas what you are asking from this forum is to help you out with something that most roller fanciers have been trying to avoid. Breeding roll downs is not only cruel but it is also selfish on your behalf because you would only be doing it for your own enjoyment due to the fact that there isn't any competitions or for that matter justification for it. Get another hobby if you cant treat the birds any better than that. Joe Urbon
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spintight
30 posts
Oct 09, 2004
9:17 PM
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Hey Thomas,
I have seen guys who like and think that breeding for roll downs is what these birds were meant to do but as you see, we assure you this is not the case.
I honestly think that you will get more of the same if you simply try to cross your "roll down" birds with more stable birds, ever hear the term "Garbage in Garbage out?"
I feel that the gene that causes rolling down is do dominant that it's next to impossible to get rid of once it's been set in the genes for so long like in the case of your dad's birds.
You would be better off trying to obtain some real quality deep birds down there if you can afford them? There are many down there, some of the CPRC members are prime examples of deep with quality.
Well if you get wise to what you need to do I'm sure someone would be more then willing to assist you with knowledge.
Dave
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Alan Bliven
14 posts
Oct 12, 2004
8:10 PM
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I've always wondered what would happen with the genes if you bred a roll-down with a non roller, say a tippler. Would that bird roll at all, would the roll-down gene dominate, or would you get something in-between?
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nicksiders
83 posts
Oct 12, 2004
9:24 PM
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You would get a cull
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
281 posts
Oct 13, 2004
11:02 AM
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Alan, a tippler is one of the breeds that were developed at the time the Birmingham Roller was and the reason they are called tipplers is because they do flip. It looked more like them tipping over which from what I have read they don't really do anymore because that is not what the breeder wanted them to do. Basically they are genetically the same as a roller, just bred entirely another direction...lol. SO...if you mated a roll down to a tippler, you could get everything from another roll down to a stone cold stiff...er..tippler..lol. There is one genetic factor that causes the roll, flip, flounder, whatever going over backwards...and it is called the Tumbling or Roll gene. It is the same gene in all pigeons that exhibit that trait. The difference between a roll down and a stiff is in the head, control and character, or in the case of the roll down, lack there of.
Brian.
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Alan Bliven
15 posts
Oct 13, 2004
1:52 PM
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Well, my thought is not improving the B. Roller but the possibility of improving some other tumbler types by infusing some B. roller into them. Many have had their tumbling abilities bred out of them for one reason or another... show, highflying etc.
One example is they are trying to bring back the flying West of England Tumbler by infusing tipplers into them.
Since the roll-down is a crazy gene, my question should have been if the normal roll gene from good birds would be passed on when crossed with a non roll gene or a bird that had a roll gene at one time like a tippler?
Now, this is an extreme example but what if you crossed a deep roller (not a roll-down) with an English Trumpeter? I don't plan on doing this but I'm very curious as to how the roll gene would be passed on?
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
282 posts
Oct 13, 2004
2:41 PM
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Alan, technically if you crossed a roll down with a trumpeter, you 'should' get no birds that roll or flip. The roll gene is recessive (ro//ro), meaning it takes two copies to be activated. What most people don't know, and was amazing to me, is that most pigeon breeds are or were at one time, a tumbling breed..from what I have read. A roll down isn't a gene, or should I say a bird that rolls down doesn't possess a gene called roll down or even one that makes them do it. A roll down is a bird that lacks brakes! For whatever reason, mostly breeder selection, the roll down is a bird that goes into the roll and simply cannot stop itself. Roll is like a volume knob or a throttle. Every bird that has the ro//ro gene (Wests, Tipplers, Helmets, Rollers, Orientals, etc, etc,) has an internal gas pedal connected to that roll maker. Breeder(s) selection over years determines the character make up of the produced birds and ultimately, if one doesn't breed for the roll, the ability to control it most of the time becomes dominant and basically the bird can overcome the sensation to roll or tumble. If the breeders started out with birds that rolled frequently and deep and concentrated on other things without flying the birds, there is a good chance when the future prodigy were flown, they would all roll down as selection for control was not focused on. I have show Wests and give my cull marked baldheads to a friend who flys them and most still tumble after a while. Wests were bred and flown right along with Tipplers, judged for their long-high flying time so crossing to a tippler would be pretty crazy to me. If I were your friend who was doing this, just get some grouse leg good rollers with pearl eyes and cross them into the Wests and within no time he will have Wests that will roll, though rolling is not what a West was bred to do in the air...lol.
Brian.
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Alan Bliven
16 posts
Oct 13, 2004
5:24 PM
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Thanks, I appreciate that!
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Siddiqir
115 posts
Oct 14, 2004
11:52 AM
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Is rolldown can be use to add depth like for example some family of rollers rolls 10 feet or less but very frequent, if mated with rolldown should the length increase?
Any input? Thanks, -Rauf
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J_Star
41 posts
Oct 15, 2004
6:46 AM
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Siddiqir,
There is no garantee it would work. As you know, you can have a good family of birds and still get rolldown offsprings. Instead of mating a rolldown, use a deeper spinning roller. There is some rolldown caused by improper feeding or other variables and there are rolldowns, and no matter what you do to correct it, still a rolldown. I would not use the the stuborn rolldown birds at all.
The family you talked about with short spin, are those youngsters? If they are, then give them time and they will develop their deeper spin. This is just my observation of my own birds. They started with shorter spin and now they spin with variety of depth, up to 70' sometimes, depending on the mood and situation with the kit and the height of their flight.
Last Edited by J_Star on Oct 15, 2004 6:48 AM
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Siddiqir
116 posts
Oct 15, 2004
7:21 AM
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J_Star, They are between 3 to 9 months old. Well as you said I believe I need to give more time they may get deeper. Thanks, -Rauf
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Ally Mac
9 posts
Oct 15, 2004
10:40 AM
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I aquired 4 new birds 2 weeks ago, they were penned in and i flew them today for the first time, 3 all flew well, one hen rolled down three times as soon as it got airborne, it survived but it is limping. Could it be over exuberant after being penned in?, it was also on the very hungry side to help trap.
Is there any point feeding it up and persevering, it is not easy for me to aquire new birds due to where i live, though i certainly down want to see another roll down if i can help it.
All advice appreciated.
Al.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
284 posts
Oct 15, 2004
11:41 AM
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Ally that could be just as you stated, exhuberance causing the bird to go into the roll. Were these young birds or bird someone else has flown before? Did he tell you what to expect from them? I live by the fly or die principal. When some of the young ones start getting a little nutty or dangerous I will help them out with a little rest and extra feed, but they are going to fly or else hit the road to the pet farm. Try giving it as much as it wants to eat and rest it for a few days. If it hit a few times it isn't going to want to fly tomorrow. If it rolls down again, either cull it or let it eventually cull itself. Better get use to seeing a bird roll down or misjudge the landing approach. For it you don't see it occasionally, chances are all your birds are rolling too much, if at all.
Brian.
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Mother lode lofts
232 posts
Oct 15, 2004
12:14 PM
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feed the bird up with peas and keep fly it. it will either ket a handle on it or it won't.
Scott
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Ally Mac
10 posts
Oct 16, 2004
2:52 AM
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Thanks Brian and Scott.
I will rest it for a week, back to work on Monday. I checked it this morning, it still cant stand on its sore leg though it does try.
It is an early bred youngster, i think some of the chaps birds were very deep rollers though looking back he was hedgeing his bets when we were talking.
Fingers crossed anyway, the other three would appear ok, just flown them again. thanks for your help.
Ally.
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SWPP
3 posts
Oct 17, 2004
12:13 PM
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Thanks to all replies,
I guess I will keep getting correct info on how and why a bird must do this or do that and I do understand that but the issue with me is these birds are tight as tight can be meaning no crosses from the orignal makeup and most birds were bred onnce or twice every 3-5 years and were seperted and they were not being bred to have birds because the blood was special and wasn't going to get out so breeding over the years was very limited and any breeding done was to make sure the blood stayed alive. I know I have an issue and that is why I am here on this board trying to get true help in keeping the stock I have but making it suitable to compete as a kit without rolling down before getting to the proper hights, Qestion for the board and this may not anything to do with the birds but when talking about running styles Michael Johnson was said to have a terrible running style but look what he did over the past 7 years and in the Olympics he just flat out destroyed the logic on how a sprinter should run and now you see a lot of your top runners today using his same style and his pupils won the 200 meter run in the summer olympics with that same style of running and almost broke Johnsons olympic record. I hope I am not driving the board crazy but I do have true 200'ers and if I fly them with flyers that take them up higher in the sky before letting lose man oh man it's the best show in town. I have learned how to fly them to get them up up up prior to showing off but if I don't fly them for one week due to weather or mishaps then I have the problem with them rolling down but the next fly they tend to get higher and do their thing. Thanks for all the help and I am sucking it all in and all responses are being looked at.
Thanks Thomas
Last Edited by SWPP on Oct 17, 2004 12:16 PM
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redneckhippie15
35 posts
Oct 17, 2004
6:47 PM
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Good Luck with those deep rollers there Thomas.
I am raising my first kit.I have 11 birds and all of them are finally rolling. I have an opal bird that tail rode for three months. I was considering him a cull at eight or nine months. Here at seven months he finally started rolling.kinda slow freq, med spin,8-12 feet. Not great but scorable.
I have a bro-sis pair of blue bars that are clones. They are pretty freq, tight roll. 10-15 feet for an hour.they are connected at the wingtip in the air.
One ash red hen is just now back in shape from a three month shut down before I got her,now she is finally starting to come around.slow freq kinda loose and short. 6 weeks ago she was a roof sitter.
The rest are white background Cheneys. Kinda slow but all of them are starting to get tight and deep almost scary sometimes. I have three that are 30 footers. two that are twenty or so.
Last week I changed the amount of feed I give them to
1.5 tbs per bird. After the one I had roll down on to the roof,and I thought a few were a bit thin.
The last few days I have been flying the crap out of them and they seem to be responding well. Trying to turn as a group. I`m getting 2-7 almost every time. If I am not mistaken 5 birds at the minimum have to roll to score, corrcet?
As a whole I would give the kit a six.I have a good mixture of freq and depth. They all kit like a dream.
They still have a long way to go,but I am starting to have a real good time now.
I would like to thank all of the fellow members of this site who have given me advice from time to time,and put up with my crap,that has allowed me to get these birds to this point.
redneckhippie*blue dot lofts*
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STARFIRE
49 posts
Oct 26, 2004
5:31 PM
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hey SWPP.
You should look into getting some Gallatsy? rollers.They come from Rumania and are supposed to be very deep and stable.I don't think I have the right spelling for them.
Maybe you could breed them with yours and get a more stable bird. Hey guys were do you think all the grizzles and like birds came from? TIPPLERS.They bred them into the rollers in England years ago to get some stability in the red badges everyone was breeding at the time.The rollers were too frequent and short.Stan Arnold
Last Edited by STARFIRE on Oct 26, 2004 5:38 PM
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SWPP
4 posts
Oct 27, 2004
1:38 PM
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Thanks Starfire,
I am still searching for a super cross with these birds as far as stability goes and I know this but sometimes it is hard or should I say challenging to know what the cross with due to the fact that I really don't know there background (narrowing it down), but they will drop out the shy. I think I will have to go with a good proven line and do my trail and errors from there and establish a new line of birds that will have some sort of known history. LOL Where can I go to look up the "Gallasty" birds from England?
I know the birds I have are full of Northern Roller blood but from what line, I don't know.
Thanks for all the boards help and info
Thomas
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
305 posts
Oct 27, 2004
1:55 PM
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Thomas, the spelling for the roller that Stan mentioned is Galati Roller also spelled Galatzer Roller in Germany. You can probably find some info on them somewhere on the internet, though I hear they are considered a rare breed. Someone on this list mentioned having them before, maybe they can offer their insight into where they purchased them and how they perform. Good luck.
Brian.
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Leo
22 posts
Oct 27, 2004
2:59 PM
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Thomas, If you decide on Galatzer rollers try this guy, he had quite a few a few yrs ago. He can probably help hes in Mich. Jim Cook PH 517...652..6303.....hope this helps...TAKE CARE.....LEO
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Mother lode lofts
258 posts
Oct 27, 2004
3:22 PM
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Thomas why reinvent the wheel ? If they aren't working and just coming down on you get another family unless you have a side that has more stability then work around that.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Oct 27, 2004 3:23 PM
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Kitswell
1 post
Oct 30, 2004
7:18 PM
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Swpp , hAVE you tried a well-lighted loft, large flight pen & flying them every day ? Any chance you would sell a proven breeder pair that is throwing these birds ?
~Buck~
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SWPP
5 posts
Oct 31, 2004
11:54 AM
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Thanks to all for all the insight and or suggestions,
Mother lode I truely understand the concept of don't reinvent the wheel, but I have been breeding hounds for the past 20 years and you don't just throw away a hound (Brood) that has superb tracking skills but may lack the stamina of say a Hybred hound. I am sure you have reached a point in your loft that you need to get a cross in there to bring back the traits you want to see. If your birds are lacking flying ability you do what? Bring some flyer blood into you brood stock? If you want some depth in your kit you do what? If I have a brood bird that has depth and tightness in the roll but they just keep coming then that tells me that I need to introduce a bird that has the same qualities but is stable in when to break out, I do have birds that will do this but they too sometimes come all the way down. I know that this is not the acceptable way and I don't condone it but I have what I have and it is a lot more behind these birds than just start over. Take a Parlor that rolls 150 staight and started to curve back in the opposite direction and roll 100 feet, now that equals a 50 foot roll even though he rolled a total of 250 feet would you dump that bird? Mother lode this is where I am stuck at and want to progress from here and that is why I am on this board to get help or insight from the best of the best and I do listen to all responses and take it all into concept.
Thanks Thomas
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Mother lode lofts
281 posts
Oct 31, 2004
1:02 PM
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Thomas we are not talking hounds here we are talking "Birmingham Rollers" to completely different animals. If someone feels that they need to add depth to their birds it is done with "stable" deep birds not roll downs. The easiest thing to breed out of this breed is what you have described here that these birds do. Without stabilty a bird such as these are well lets just say undesirable and the same holds true for any deep bird that rolls with flaws. This is an open forum with a lot of new and inexperianced fliers and I think that it's important that they and "you" understand this. I've seen guys get stuck on birds that are lacking in everyway to just keep going and going with them only to end up insulted whenever someone tried to help them by telling them the truth. Some will keep heading down the same road banging their head and some will learn from it and head in a differant direction. What ever you do here I wish you the best of luck.
Scott Campbell
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Oct 31, 2004 3:30 PM
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Birdman
16 posts
Oct 31, 2004
3:40 PM
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Thomas, in your first post you ended with the comment that you enjoyed the thrill of rollers but didn't want the rolldowns, and that you wanted to invest in some quality birds. Not trying to be sarcastic here, but I think that your birds may have been bred too many generations for depth only and not for quality. That is probably why they are deep and unstable and I think that most would agree that they are culls. There are no shortcuts and the wrong breeding choices will only lead to setbacks, but you would definitely save yourself alot of time and headache by investing in a few pair of top quality birds and breed from them and fly out the youngsters. The birds don't have to be rolldowns to to give me a thrill, but a well trained kit of 30'ers is capable of knocking your socks off on a good day! Just my opinion.
Russ
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
312 posts
Oct 31, 2004
4:20 PM
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Good post Russ!
Brian
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J_Star
60 posts
Nov 01, 2004
8:13 AM
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SWPP,
I think your family of birds came from Harry Bellfield line. The old line of Birmingham Rollers used to be high flyers and deep spinners until things changed to what they are today.
Based on Pensom's writing in regard to Harry Bellfield said "On retirement H. Bellfield purchased a home especially suited to flying his birds. His loft was situated on the peak of a knoll...His birds were deep and extremely regular...He also had in mind when he chose this situation the existance of extremely long grass which grew all around the knoll, and which varied very little in growth all year round. The idea was to lessen the possibility of any of his birds destroying themselves should they make a mistake and roll all the way."
I still say breed them with other families of birds that have a shorter spin, control and consistancy. You might need to cull a few b4 you get some with stability to them and start a new family. If you claim that your family are very fast spinners, then you should still see that in the offsprings. What do you have to lose to try this? Others might disagree with me in this regard but that is what I would do if I were you. It is worth a try b4 you totally condem your old line of birds.
best of luck.
Jay
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Birdman
17 posts
Nov 01, 2004
9:14 AM
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Jay, you need to finish the paragraph. Pensom goes on to say that "All outstanding Rollers are subject to mishaps, especially when the wind is blowing in a certain direction."
I think the point Pensom what trying to make had to deal with birds that 'bump' when coming in or going out. That is what the idea of the long grass was for. And the wrong type of wind will certainly compound things and could push the birds in the wrong direction while rolling. Keep in mind that Pensom was also talking about 'Outstanding' rollers that made a mistake. Not a flock of 200'ers. After the first 50' I don't think that a 200' roller would look outstanding. Just my 2 cents.
Russ
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J_Star
61 posts
Nov 01, 2004
12:37 PM
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Russ,
I agree with you in the second sentence and somewhat in the first one. The reason is because my reading in Pensom's book, he was refering to H. Bellfield deep rolling rollers which Bellfield liked. Pensom also said about Bellfield that "He liked a Roller, and nothing but the swiftest and straightest spinners pleased him." He never mentioned that they rolled with control either and did not say how deep either. He also did not say that the rolldown happend upon release or coming down either.
The impression that I got from the reading of this part of his book is that Bellfield's birds were every deep and like other breed sometimes the birds miss judged the distance and rolldown all the way and distroy themselvs.
All deep rollers are suspect of being rolldown. Do you agree? Mr. pensom also in his book said "It is common among some fanciers to exaggerate the depth a bird will roll; For example, 15 feet becomes 30 feet or more, 25 feet often being estimated as a hundred or more. A true spinner very seldom exceeds 30 feet and very often this depth spells disaster." But spinning 30 feet is not the swiftest of spinners. Is it?
This gives me the conclusion that H. Bellfield birds were really deep spinners and more than the 30 feet that we like today.
I suspect that SWPP birds are pure the old-old time birds (1920's or earlier blood) b4 they were crossed to bring them to todays strains. Maybe SWPP need to research and find out how the old-old timers did to cross their very high fliers and very deep spinners to become the sweet creatures that we know them today. It is possible that those birds are a treasure to tap into the past and creat things with them or maybe not. I don't know enough to make judgemet.
In todays breeding methodology, we take the easy way out. I hope I am not offending anybody, because that is not what is my intention. But we start with the best family of birds our money can buy and we change a little or enhance it a little and we call the new family by our last name as it is originaly our creation, which is truely not. I hear of "why you reinvent the wheel".. Reinventing is creating while enhancing something is just modification to what is already has been created.
I think SWPP has a chance of maybe creating someting truely his own.
That is what I think, your comments are really appreciated. Thanks.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Nov 01, 2004 12:41 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
313 posts
Nov 01, 2004
12:57 PM
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I have to agree with Russ here. How many 100-200 foot rollers has anyone seen that can ball it up for the duration of the roll, climb back to the kit and do it again? Chances are it might get a few off before the roll will seriously suffer. I have stood in many yards and seen an individual roller go into a super deep roll, one of those pushing 100 feet. After which time one of two things happens. Either they don't do it again at all, that one roll being their momentary claim to fame, only to shorten up and roll like the rest of the birds in the team, or they do it again and wear themselves out, eventually either crashing or landing. At that point the roll is usually pretty crappy. I have only seen one roller that could roll 80+ and super fast and do it every few minutes for the duration of the fly. I'm talking about a bird rolling fast enough to show a hole. The key being every few minutes. The difference with this bird was she would only do this occasionally when prepped right, otherwise she could be scary or much shorter in the roll. I have seen several that can rip off an 8+ second fast roll, but once or twice is all you get. The test either way is to come back a month or two later and see if those birds are still there. Chances are slim that many of them will still be around. In just about every article or book you will read about rollers, using roll downs is not a preferred breeding method for improving stock. Using birds on the ragged edge can have benifits for if you aren't rolling down a few now and then, you aren't breeding hot enough anyway.
In the past few years, even including this past breeding season I have TRIED a few roll downs out just to see what would happen. The reason being we can read lectures and listen to advice, but sometimes lessons best learned are those learned from our own experience. I wasn't looking to add depth in the case of the few birds I tried. I only wanted to see first hand what would the results would be, though I pretty much knew exactly what to expect. One hen was a great roller...for a while, then became just too hot and eventually would roll down. But she was fast as hell. I put her on a cock bird that has shown he tends to breed short, medium frequency birds. The result was 5 out of 6 were roll downs, usually within a month of rolling, yet there were fast, fast enough to kill themselves on impact. Another cock I tried for giggles was so hot he couldn't even get up to the kit without rolling down. I tried him on two different hens, both stable birds and low and behold only one bird from those matings has survived and that one has crashed a few times but still manages to kit. I suspect he will conclude my experiement and top off the percentage at 100 percent roll downs here in the very near future. The summary is that though I was told and I have read it would not work, I had to try for myself. I can say with utmost confidence now that breeding from roll downs is a total waste of time. I am not repeating what I was told, I am telling what I experienced. Some will find it sufficient to rely on others experiences to avoid pit falls while others will want to find out first hand. Either way is notable, but I think 9 times out of 10 the results will be the same. There are too many good families of rollers out there that have great performance qualities to choose from..including depth. Since I breed from several families to get a good grasp of as many variables as possible, one thing is boldy evident. My deepest rollers, ones that have survived to show their attributes continually don't come from roll down matings, they come from pairs of good spinners to good spinners. I think if you were to visit the lofts of many successful flyers who can fly some deep pigeons, they will tell you pretty much the same. Best to best. A roll down is not the best unless you consider lawn darts as being quality rollers.
Brian.
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Mother lode lofts
282 posts
Nov 01, 2004
2:40 PM
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Jay the only thing that you can assume about such birds is that they are poorly bred and Bellfeild was not at fault LOL , whenever the line is ran as far as heat you will have some bad shots called by some "very" good birds at times, It has nothing at all to do with rolldowns which are simply birds that do not have the mental strength to handle the roll. Take a solid 30 ft bird that has it all,kitting, qaulity and control when it needs it over the roll and put it side by side with one of these rolldowns. The roll down will be the one with a stupid and fearful look in his eye's, and the other one will have a look of "what the hell you looken at" . Like I said earlier the birds that are described here are of the easiest there are to breed. Russ's posts here were well said and to the point.
Scott
Scott
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STARFIRE
58 posts
Nov 01, 2004
4:34 PM
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Hey Guys;
You got to remember one thing.You CAN'T breed deep rollers from short ones.BUT YOU CAN BREED SHORT ONES FROM DEEP SPINNERS.If I had these deep birds I would get some really good,stable,fast,tight,15-20 ftrs.You will get some very good stuff from a cross like that.Especially if both familys have been linebred for a long time.You should come out with birds that will be in the 30-50-60 ft range,and also rolldowns.But the rolldowns should be expected.
Stan Arnold
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
314 posts
Nov 01, 2004
4:57 PM
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Stan, and then the roll downs culled, not bred from.
Brian.
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STARFIRE
59 posts
Nov 01, 2004
5:11 PM
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Hey MCC;
I agree with you that you should not use rolldowns in your breeding program.But your experience with the few that you bred is only limited to YOUR family of birds.I have used rolldowns on occasion and have gotten some very good stable 30 ftrs.You may get a few rolldowns down the line but if you have good birds you can expect that.You say you have some birds that are so hot they can't keep up with the kit,and are very unstable.Thats in some familys of birds also.I have had my family since 1968 and I have never bred a bird that rolls so much it cant keep up.I have Almonds that roll 30-40-ft. and one that will go 50-60-ft.These birds hold their speed no matter how deep they go.Ihave bred my share of rolldowns over the years but I wouldn't rule out using a rolldown if I really needed it.What would you have said if the young from rolldowns you bred turned out ok which was possible? =Stan Arnold=
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
315 posts
Nov 01, 2004
8:52 PM
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Stan, I like to breed for consistent production which I hope leans on the hotter side. And in doing so I get some rolldowns and those hot ones that can't seem to keep up with the kit. But by weeding those out and the parents that threw too many of them, I have seen fewer of the hot ones that are unusable for comp kits. I wouldn't necessarily call them unstable unless it was evident they were just plain nuts. I have one hen off one of my best producing pairs that threw a hen this year that has a hard time flying because she is constantly flipping. Never really rolls, just insane flipping until finally she lands. Like a roll down, I'll probably cull her too but have kept her around in a younger kit just to see what she eventually does. If you say you have plenty of 30-60 foot spinners it doesn't sound to me like you don't need to breed from a rolldown. Just wouldn't make any sense to me at all, but my goals might be different from yours.
To answer your question "What would you have said if the young from rolldowns you bred turned out ok which was possible?" Just like what I stated in my earlier post, experience would show me what is possible. If the percentage of them turned out to be okay, then I would say it was worth the gamble. But they didn't. 1 out of 16 turned out okay. That is horrible odds and a waste of feed and time, but I learned something very valuable...don't try breeding from a roll down anymore..LOL. I would have to ask you if the fast deep spinners you mentioned are currently off of roll downs? If so then by all means keep on doing what you are doing if that is what makes you happy. Your results differ from my results and therefore my opinion on whether a roll down should be bred from probably differs from your opinion on the issue. Our goals are probably quite different. I am not looking to raise super deep rollers that may or may not be here tomorrow. I want 30-40 footers that work hard 2 times a minute for competition and will be here for years to come barring interference by mother nature.
Brian.
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redneckhippie15
59 posts
Nov 02, 2004
4:39 AM
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Brian,
I have a question. I have 2 birds that are what I would put in a comp kit in terms of roll depth and quality of roll
but they only rip these 2-3 times in 20 mins.
How can I increase the freq of their rolls?
I also have a too freq bird that might not make the cut.
Any suggestions on that one?
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Never watch you birds with you mouth open!
redneckhippie*blue dot lofts*
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J_Star
62 posts
Nov 02, 2004
7:18 AM
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Scott & Brian,
I agreed with you in many issues, but I kinda differ on this one. Breeders today chose the easy way out, bread best birmingham Roller to best within the same family or not. But in the old-old timer time they crossed the twizlers, the plat rollers, tipplers and others to the Birmingham Rollers to create some champions as Mr. Pensom's discription of the champion rollers.
In today's description of champion birds are frequency, volacity, depth and type. No one mention of their champions are able to twizzle or plate roll. Because it is not the fad anymore and we breed out those traits from our birds if they exist.
Besides no one is crossing their birds with twizzlers or plate roller birds like they did in the past. If anybody does, we rush to call their birds mongrels and not true B. rollers.
How hard is it to breed a winner to a winner? The challenge is to cross some good birds with other type of rollers to come up with an exceptional type of B. rollers as they did in the old timers past. Those family of birds then and only then should carry the last name of their developer.
What we all practice today is like George Busschaert in racing pigeon did. He was a millionare who bought the best there was in belgium in the sixties and seventies and brought them to England. The birds were totally unrelated but they had one thing in common they contained a variety of genes that were capable of producing super athletic charactersistics in pigeons. This raised the question what exactly is a family of pigeons. Busschaert had his own deffinition, and spite of his pigeons originating from a variety of sources, he said that when they were in his loft they were Busschaerts. We all practice that same principle.
I understand and totally agree with all that we will do better percentage wise to use birds that generation after generation have performed properly in the air thus locking the multiplied chances of breeding better birds.
We all seeing the same thing but from a different light.
Thanks.
Jay
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
316 posts
Nov 02, 2004
8:57 AM
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Hey Jay. Let me give you some things to think about. First off, each and every aspect of our daily lives deals with actions, products, facilities, equipment, etc..which are improvements to the version they replaced. Some call it innovation others call it modernization. Regardless of what it is, from the type of food you feed your dog to the quality of the clothes you wear or the fuel you put into your ultra modernized car, each one is an example of how the desire for something better has cultivated that very product. The same can be said for rollers. I get a gut splitting laugh when I hear folks talk that we should do things like the old timers. They did things the way they did because that was what was current at the time and all they knew. Let me give you an example of what I mean. In jolly old Pensom's book he explains what he calls a champion. The sentence at the bottom starts on page 12 and ends on 15. He is talking about these twizzlers and plate rollers in the sentences beforehand.
"There is a maximum limit to the performance of a champion roller. This limited high grade quality performance would consist of a solid spin, continued by an exhibition of twizzling plus a series of 'mad' tumbles or detached backward somersaults thrown in to complete the show. Of all the famous breeders I knew, I did not discover one who did not mate his birds to meet that ideal. There are many other grades of performance but these few examples constitute the most popular".
I remember reading that years ago and wondering if Willy fell off his perch while writing this. This made absolutely no sense to me at all. Why? Because we don't breed for that type of pigeon anymore.We breed for fast, deep, clean execution of the roll with snap out and return to the kit. In fact, a bird that will roll then twizzle then tumble is a bonafide cull not only in my book but in the books of an endless number of quality flyers that I know. Anyone who has won a major fly DOES NOT FLY THESE TYPES OF PIGEONS. In fact, I know of some judges that would not even score that as roll because of the trash at the end of the performance. Usually we call that wing-switching. This to me is a prime example of why it can be detrimental to get locked into the methods of yesteryear. If indeed Pensom's ideal was a bird that would roll, then twizzle and tumble or some other crap (a roller that can do it all..lol) then I have very few champions of his caliber as I have culled them. We have much, much better birds today and in greater numbers than they had many moons ago. I think Willy would shit a golden Hershey if he were here to see the competition kits of today. The way our birds are bred are different than how they bred for the individual of the past, there the final product has evolved into a much more innovative product. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this Jay.
Brian.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
317 posts
Nov 02, 2004
9:04 AM
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Hey Red. That is a hard one to answer without actually having a lengthy conversation. The two you have that are not too frequent could develop frequency later or actually get stiffer. Feed changes can effect the frequency on a limited basis as will moving them into a more frequent team. Sometimes a bird's frequency can change with the cohesive balance of a team. Others just can't seem to find the groove in a frequent team. The others you said are too frequent can often become your better comp kit performers when and if they stabilize. Most of my favorite birds in my A-team were usually a little out there on the ragged edge for a while in their first year then got better as they matured. Keep an eye on those two and don't cull them if they are trying to keep up. They might surprise you later on.
Brian.
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J_Star
63 posts
Nov 02, 2004
10:06 AM
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Brian,
Your answers were well put. I think we breed for competition purposes while back then were for the pleasure of it. I never seen the yester years birds for me to really compare, but I am happy of what I see today.
I read somewhere, I think on your website, that you have a bird that is only 5.5 ounces, is that a Jacs by the way? The reason I am asking is because I have some that size also.
Jay
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
318 posts
Nov 02, 2004
11:40 AM
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Hey Jay. Like yourself I have never seen birds from 50+ years ago, and the literature is pretty much all we have to go on. I think ultimately there is good basic information provided by thoughtful insight on the part of the elder authors, but as times change, so many other facets and requirements do to. I feel that long ago the requirements one set for their birds performance was governed largely by the "wow" factor. There were little to no competitions early on so the "champion" roller could have been of just about any level of performance and the breeding methods used to create such birds probably were a little more abstract than we commonly use today. Basically many probably bred what they wanted to see and what they thought was the best. We often read and hear what that person wants us to hear rather than all possible aspects of roller flying that we actually get to experience currently. You know when we read or are told what to do rather than what not to do. Organizationalism of the hobby has, in my opinion, raised the bar considerably not only in the preferred performance but in the breeding practices as well. Which brings us back to the origin of this thread. Early fanciers probably used these over-cooked birds in hopes of creating what they wanted to see. But in today's roller climate there are more systematic approaches which usually tend to be quite accurate in the big picture.
I don't have a website Jay...lol. You are probably confusing me with Brian Middaugh..lol. Most of my jacs are from Horner and they typically range from medium in size to a tad bit long cast. The tad long cast birds seem to be the ones that make it into the A-team after a year. Hard to specify exactly why that is other than some of the pairs are just better at producing better birds. I do have a couple of "sparrows" that are as tiny as a Figurita or Owl pigeon, but only one of them has ever been able to handle the day-to-day rigors of rolling. The biggest thing I have personally found with this family of Jacs (I think you have some of the same family) is there is a nice balance when mating narrower shouldered birds to stronger, wider shoulder birds. Seems my percentages are much higher as the offspring tend to develop into a medium size between the two parents. Have you experienced something similar with yours?
Brian.
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J_Star
65 posts
Nov 02, 2004
11:56 AM
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Brian,
All my birds are from Horner. I have another 12 coming today. I don't understand what you mean by "narrower shouldered birds to stronger, wider shoulder birds." To me they all look the same except of couple are smaller in size, one Hen and the other is a cock. I used to think he was a hen until he start coo all the time. Most of the birds I have are in the midum shoulder (I think) and the wing butts showing.
Jay
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