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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
easy birds for a newbie
easy birds for a newbie
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George R,
5 posts
Sep 27, 2004
8:41 PM
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Recently a fellow I met asked me what strain of birds would be good for a person just starting in this hobby.
He said he wants birds that you dont have to do a lot of
things for them to roll other than just fly them and feed and water them.
also where can he buy himself a kit to start .
I told him I would put it on the forum and let him know.
any advice would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
Last Edited by George R, on Sep 27, 2004 8:42 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
268 posts
Sep 27, 2004
10:26 PM
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George I had a friend ask me that some time ago. Basically the same scenario you described. The breeding season was just starting and I didn't have any new kit birds to part with yet for the year. I told him what I have told a few others and that is to call Danny Horner. His birds will pretty much all roll and do so every day with not a lot of trick management skills required. They are not crazy hot and end up all killing themselves like some "easy to fly" families can be if not managed properly. But they will do it every day and like most rollers, will start to stiffen up a bit as they get past one year of age. That to me is a good thing for a beginner because he can fly them and enjoy them for months and months, then when they start to get stiff he can learn the in's and out's of how to manage them, and maybe learn things he wouldn't have if it were "too easy".
Brian.
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J_Star
23 posts
Sep 28, 2004
5:19 AM
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George,
I agree with Brian. Danny Horner is the man you need to talk to.
Brian, Why do they stiffen up after one year? I thought rollers only get better as they mature. Doesn't most fancier give their birds two seasons to determine if they are a keeper?
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
269 posts
Sep 28, 2004
11:43 AM
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Jay, generally the good families of rollers that can be flown for many years will be active and exciting as young birds then when they turn about a year old or go through their second molt, they tend to stiffen up, but the roll gets better. Some families are hot right out of the egg and the many of those birds seldom last more than six months. Those birds typically teach a flyer nothing as they roll automatically..until they roll too much or become dead on impact. I have found Danny's birds to basically come in between 4-6 months and roll a lot the first month or two then start to taper off as they learn how to handle it. When they are past one year of age they are just like any close up pensom family rather than a jac family. Just my opinion of course based on what I have experienced with his birds.
Brian.
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J_Star
24 posts
Sep 28, 2004
12:56 PM
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Brian,
This topic is a good one for debate. I Think...
A rolldown is a rolldown, no matter what family is the bird from. Do you agree with me?
For the people who wants to compete, you know that 20-40' roll is the best so the rollers can get back to the kit easily. Who would want rollers that roll 80+ feet to compete with? unless a backyard fanciers just want to see a deep roll and chance it that his birds will eventually burn themselves down.
When you say that the Jaconettes will become just like any other Pensoms rather than Jaconettes/Plano and Smith, what is the difference? Aren't all rollers started really from the Pensom line as we know today? Or is the old Pensom line not good enough anymore comparing to the many breeds we have today amongst the many breeders? I know that we have so many breed of rollers that bred by so many well know people and many vorities of families have been developed in the last twenty years or so such as the Rick Mae, Norman, Plano, Roe, old Fireball, and many others that , which I think, you consider are complex families. What is a complex family and what is the makeup of a comlex family? Can I be able to identify it when I see it in a bird? Is it a family that you have to trick to show their stuff such as puting a rubber snake in the kit box or give them dark tea and honey in their water or even coffee to spike them or maybe starv them or deprive them of water B4 a fly?
Please, I am not being defensive or anything in that nature, I just would like to know the difference between the so many families in the market today and what is the cababilities of each and why we call some complix and others simple. Just like we call some rollers rolldowns and others very good.
I always believe that simplicity is the best thing and that's why humans always inventing things to make life easier everyday. Why would anybody wants to raise a moody and complex family(ies) of rollers if the simple and the complex families do the same thing - Roll including the five traits, that we all try to achive. I understand that in every family of rolles, you will find the exceptional, very good, avarage and the culls, so where is the advantage of managing a complex family of rollers? I will leave breeding topic for another post, especialy when mixing multiple families together.
From reading the so many post in this site, alot of breeders here say that they like to breed families of rollers that will start to show the roll at an early age such as 3-4 months rather than the 9 months so they can make their selection of what to keep early. I am getting confused here to what is it we want to raise or strive for
to have a good kit of rollers. please help me understand, and I am sure that others who is reading this would like to sort thing out also. Thanks.
Last Edited by J_Star on Sep 28, 2004 12:57 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
270 posts
Sep 28, 2004
2:32 PM
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Jay, that was a very good post.
I do agree that a roll down is a roll down regardless of the family. In some families the percentage of hot birds that often end up denting the sod are higher than with others. The birds one chooses to compete with are only relative to what they actually have available to them in their kits boxes on fly day. While I prefer my comp team birds to be in the 40 foot range if at all possible, the next guy might prefer 60 footers or maybe 20 footers. It's really just a matter of preference based on experience. If I were only a backyard flyer just flying them for my own entertainment, then I would probably want to see the deepest rolls possible. Competition rules and the format used kind of has a limit to how far a person can go. But if a person can put up a team of birds that are super deep and can get back to the kit and do it again, you'll probably be watching the kit that is about to win it all and everyone will no doubt be very, very impressed.
I didn't mean to imply that jacs will become just like any other Pensoms. As you know Danny has some Smith blood in the background of his birds which as I have found, gives them a character that once they become older, they tend to get stiffer. Not totally stiff, just not as frequent as they once were as young birds and require dailed in management to get the most out of them on fly day. Some families that are jac-based are completely the opposite, being their best as young birds then either get stiff and sloppy as old birds or they simply don't make it to become old birds. It really depends on how the breeder chooses his stock birds and the direction he or she wants to go with them.
Yes most all rollers stem from those that Pensom brought over, but not all as other fanciers imported birds from England as well. It's irrelevant given that what you are referring to are specifically developed strains bred for specific characteristics, the Jacs being one of the most popular stand outs simply because they are usually so loaded with roll. Many top flyers have used them to cross into other families to create what they probably refer to as a more "competition balanced" family. The older families that are tied directly into productive rollers that Pensom or guys from that era raised or owned often still carry with them the stronger mind and body as well as taking longer to come in. That would be a general statement as I know of many that have hard core "old school" Pensom based birds that they and others have selectively bred to hone in on earlier development as well as taking some of the high flying strength away from them. Again, it boils down to the selection the breeder chooses and what specific goals they have set out to achieve. In the big picture they are all just rollers. But when you break it down, each family has developed characteristics that have a specific attraction to some and little to others. All families will need some type of dialed-in management to get the "most" out of them as we as competitors would like to see our birds perform to the best of their abilities. Tricking can be applied to any family, its just that with some families, the breeder has learned the techniques and limitations on how to get them to break a few more times or roll a little deeper. Some families tend to handle this manipulation better than others.
To fully understand the scope of the charateristics of the many different families out there one would have to pretty much fly them and learn for themselves, directly, which ones they find to their liking. As George originally posted, he has a friend who just wants to have some rollers that will perform every day with basically no tricks involved, just feed um and water um. Well it's safe to stay that he wouldn't want a strong family as they won't deliver what he expects from them without the management part. While other families which are loaded with roll will probably suit his entertainment needs. Most guys who just get into rollers typically want to see results NOW..lol. I know I was the same way. After five months I wondered if any of the birds I started with were ever going to roll. Flying rollers can be a tricky deal. One day you are going to have some folks over to watch your birds and they are going to be stiff on you. It happens to everyone at one time or another and afterwards, sometimes, we start to ponder if the event was an embarrassment, or one of those experiences we just except.
Whether it is a complex family requiring militant management or one that is simple, often requiring just the opposite is something only the fancier himself can figure out which he prefers. I have some of both in the various families I fly, and there are characteristics of both that I like and dislike. My current A-team consists of a little of both, but mostly the ones that made it past one year. That is important to me because if I produce a good one, I want to be able to use it and enjoy it indefinitely unless Mother Nature intervenes. They are all old birds except for three new young bird additions, which ironically are just younger siblings of the old birds in the kit. Time has a way of bringing the facts that a person can see and understand to light.
Hopefully some others will share their concepts about your questions with us as well.
Brian.
PS--One of the best ways to find out the differences in the families is how they are fed. Some you have to starve, others you have to fed excessively rich. Flip the feeding concept on the families and you will probably find the ones you had to starve become cloud flying tipplers while the ones you have to feed a lot are lying dead around the kit box.
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Mother lode lofts
215 posts
Sep 28, 2004
5:30 PM
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Jay not all families roll with the same speed and qaulity. They can be as different as night and day due to several different reasons. Normally the more frequency that you have the less qaulity, of coarse there are exceptions, to much frequency is not a good thing as the qaulity is hard to attain plus they just wear themselfs out and get worse and worse the longer they fly. In other words all of these families are "complex" even the hot ones you must learn how to handle or you have lawn darts. My own birds are much better as far as qaulity and speed in the second year but they also loose what I consider wasted frequency. Once they mature they do take more handling no doubt, where in their youth the good ones roll no matter what. But nor is the roll the same as it is once they mature as far as qaulity and speed. Personally I'll take a solid oldbird anyday,once the good one's hit this stage they are as solid as can be and give you the utmost of what they have to offer. But this isn't to be confused with stiffs, Stiffs are as bad as to much roll , I might also add that"all" families you must "learn" how to handle to get the most out of them, I really don't think that there is an "easy" family that will take you to the top, some families just have more roll but this doesn't mean "easy" because if you don't learn to manage it you end up with as much frustration as not having enough roll. Just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Sep 28, 2004 7:10 PM
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J_Star
25 posts
Sep 29, 2004
6:07 AM
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Brian & Scott,
Very good response, Thank you.
And here I thought the birds that you need to trick to roll are no longer should be called "Birmingham rollers", and we should call them "Birmingham Trick or Treat" (LOL).
You know that there are alot of family of rollers bred these days by well known breeders. Some families are hot and some not. You guys have alot of connections and network with breeders in and around where you live and around the country. W. Pensom highlited his legacy by the pen. Meaning that he wrote a book that is still used by a lot of fanciers today. Think about this...
There is no such book in the market today that talks about the so many families of rollers and their characteristics and how to manage the various families to get the most out of them. The biginners and experiance alike would appreciate such information to be able to determine what strain of families they wish to handle and breed. Using such information from a book would be the best way for anybody to be able to hone in from the start to what they want.
My point is, you guys could be able to use your knowlege and network to gather and compile all the data and info that is required to be able to write such a book. Start with highliting the structure of the content and break down each breed by their charactersitics, habits, feed, tricks, color, and so on. The more strains and the more info you put in the book would only add to the value of such a book.
If I have the networking and the knowlege of the so many families of rollers, I would do it myself and start a money making scheme that will put my name in history like the others who have written books about rollers.
This also will alow you to be able to visit many lofts in and around the county to gather information, if you wish. With the internet and email, gathering and compiling data and info wouldn't be so difficult, maybe a bit time consuming. But if you have all the right questions to ask and be able to have the breeders elaborate further on their answers, you will be able to gather alot of info.
Ya, ya, I don't want royalties from such a book, just put my name in the acknowlegement section and I would be happy (LOL).
Throw around this idea amongst yourselves and see what you can do or come up with. I know, one of you is an editor, I am not sure who, I think Brian is. But any how that will only add to the stringth of such a book. What do you guys think? By the way don't forget about the Ruby Rollers strain in the book, right Toni!
Last Edited by J_Star on Sep 29, 2004 6:28 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
271 posts
Sep 29, 2004
1:33 PM
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Jay, there are actually about eight roller related books written by a variety of authors, most of which are built on a family or talk about every aspect of raising one. Pensom's writings in his book are like biblical scripture to some. And like biblical scripture, a series of verses can be construed to mean different things depending upon who is deciphering it and what they want it to mean.
Neither I nor Scott, nor just about anyone who visits here knows about ALL of the different families of rollers. I can say that in our modern era of flying, probably the number one publication for getting good advice in regards to families and the different ways that flyers deal with them would be the NBRC Bulletin.
If there were a book that would describe what you mentioned, I don't necessarily believe it would be a "guide" to help fanciers choose a particular family to start with. What might be alluring in words most likely would not be of interest in real life. Words and descriptions can create a false image or impression. It is always best for a fancier to get out and see as many kits as possible, then delve into how those fanciers manage their birds to get them to do what caught the newcomer's interest to begin with. I have always subscribed to the philosophy that the best education is experience. Many years ago a good friend told me that he contributes his vast knowledge of how to work on a car by owning junk for so many years. I think in some ways the same holds true in rollers. The things I have learned over the years basically stem from bad experiences and the things I did to try and deal with them. Getting started with rollers is easy. Getting to know the birds you are working with and understanding the day-in and day-out methods of management is something that only experience and the guidance of a good mentor can teach.
I think I can accurately say that neither Scott, I or anyone else who provides advice and opinions on message boards like these would instantly shun the suggestion of writing a book. We are just fanciers who enjoy communicating with those who share the same passion as we do. If we didn't enjoy the conversations and debates, we wouldn't be here..lol.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Sep 29, 2004 1:36 PM
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Mother lode lofts
216 posts
Sep 29, 2004
3:21 PM
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It has been my experiance to only "ponder" over anything that I have read or been told. The bottom line is that we have to learn "our" own birds and my thoughts on my own birds change often. And sometimes I just do full circle's LOL. If I was to give anyone advice it would be to go with a well bred proven family, if you have more than one then figure out which is the best way to go and then hone it down from there.From that point you will hone around particular birds that are giving you the goods, and then just start working it from there. What you are looking for is consistancy within the family as far as Type,temperment,faults,strength's and weaknesses. The better that you get at knowing your birds the easier things get and the easier it is to identify the faults and weaknesses and to get a handle on them and to learn what makes them tick. One thing that I allways get a chuckle over is when I read or here someone talking up how good their birds are. If I beleived even half of it I might as well go out and kill everything on the property. The fact is "truely" good birds don't come in large bunches and good kits are far and few between. And a 6mo old star means nothing to me, and at that age it is "my" opinion that they aren't even worth talking about. I get quite a few of those myself but I certainly don't put much stock in them until they mature and I truely see what they are made of. The bottom line is don't beleive everything you read and hear until you learn if it is or isn't revelent to you and your birds. And the same goes listening to me as there is a good chance that I may change my way of thinking at any given moment LOL
Scott
As for a book, shoot I can hardly spell my own name LOL and besides I'm not even sure if I beleive myself half the time.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Sep 29, 2004 4:54 PM
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Alan Bliven
10 posts
Oct 01, 2004
1:46 AM
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What's the best time of year to buy a good kit?
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highroller
42 posts
Oct 01, 2004
1:50 PM
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Alan,
I don't know if you can buy a good kit. If I had a whole kit of birds I thought were good I would not be willing to part with them. If you are able to purchase a kit I would suggest you do it when you can fly them hard to evaluate them without hawks/falcons attacking them and wiping you out or affecting the way they fly. Many times they will just fly straight and not perform much when they are continually harrassed. I guess early to mid summer would be the time I would feel comfortable trying it.
Dan
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redneckhippie15
14 posts
Oct 01, 2004
2:04 PM
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There is a guy on the nbrc message board under breeding thread said his friend sells kits. raises bunches of birds every year. hope this helps
rnh15
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redneckhippie*blue dot lofts*
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J_Star
26 posts
Oct 03, 2004
7:10 PM
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When you want to buy rollers, pick them from the air as to which one you would like to purchase. If you can not do that because you are going to buy them from somebody from the internet or from far a way distance, then only buy squeekers. They need to be all from the same family and never been flawn B4. This way, you know that the seller did not fly them first and picked the cream of the crop and sold you the junk ones. You can get winners and may be some that are duds, but it will be a matter of honest to goodness luck and since you are buying from the same family of birds that have the same gene pool, your chances of getting good birds are better. Always insist that the birds are squeekers and never been flawn. There are many ways that you can tell the birds are squeekers. This is my opinion, it has worked for me very well.
In my opinion, the best time to buy rollers is in the early spring (that depends on where you live and the weather climet there). This way you will have time to train them, fly them every day to excersise, and enjoy and get to know them.
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Alan Bliven
12 posts
Oct 03, 2004
8:21 PM
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Thanks J_Star, great advise!
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redneckhippie15
16 posts
Oct 04, 2004
4:09 AM
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ok,now you guys are contradicting yourselves. You say to pick from the air,but get squeakers that have never been flown. which is it? If you pick from the air you gotta be talking breeders.Squeakers are a crapshoot.I think some of you guys live in roller fantasy land when it comes to advice.
Who knows the guy on the internet may live right around the corner. All I was saying was check it out.
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redneckhippie*blue dot lofts*
Last Edited by redneckhippie15 on Oct 04, 2004 4:21 AM
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J_Star
28 posts
Oct 04, 2004
6:09 AM
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Red,
What I said is this,if you choose rollers from the air, it don't mean they are breeders. Alot of people have heldover kits that need to get red of or have too many kits that they need to slim down. In those cases, the buyer need to pick from the air. No one who is sellin breeders will fly their stock for you, since they do not want to chance it the stock birds to be picked off from the air by a preditor. Squeekers are a crapshoot just like I said in my post. But if you are buying from a good family of birds and the gene pool is present, your chances of getting good birds are great and if there was one of the birds that is exceptional, you will be rest assured that the seller do not keep him from you. It is a simple advise.
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Mother lode lofts
218 posts
Oct 04, 2004
7:51 AM
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Alan I think it depends on what you want. Do you just want some birds to play with ? or do you want some birds from a good family ? If you want birds out of a good family then you need to do your homework and figure out just "who's " birds that you want to try to get your hands one and then establish some sort of relationship. I agree with Jay that squekers are the way to go but an entire kit is hard to get your hands on out of the better lofts as the better lofts just don't breed the numbers like that and generally sell very few birds. I think that your best chance is convincing someone to let their birds go an extra round at the end of breeding season. Or trying to pick up some of their late hatches in the Spring as they are concentrating on the new Y/B kits and need to make room. That is the way I would do it anyway. As for picking out of the air. Well thats like haveing you judge a horse show with you knowing nothing about judging horses. And the exact same holds for picking "good" ones out of the air. Keep in mind Alan that there is far more junk out there than good and the junk is easy to get your hands on. The truelly good blood takes much more work exspecially if you are stepping in blind.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Oct 04, 2004 7:54 AM
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J_Star
29 posts
Oct 04, 2004
9:02 AM
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Scott,
I could not have said it any better. Thanks.
Jay
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redneckhippie15
18 posts
Oct 04, 2004
2:28 PM
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Thanks for the clarification. I am going to look at the operation my birds came from this week,and hopefully get some breeding stock.
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redneckhippie*blue dot lofts*
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J_Star
31 posts
Oct 05, 2004
7:10 AM
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Scott, Alan
Some breaders are able to sell a complete kit of squeekers. When I bought mine I could've got all 20 of them at one time and all the around the same age and have not been flawn or tested yet.
Alan, if you are interested and would like to get info about the breader, please give me your email and will give the info. If I can help, just let me know.
Jay
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