rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
171 posts
Sep 18, 2004
9:07 AM
|
I am humbly proposing an online Certificate Of Achievement to be awarded by Roller-Pigeon.Com to be based on demonstrated knowledge of facts relating to the pigeon in general and specifically to the roller pigeon.
The Certificate of Achievement would come with a Level 1, Level 2 and Level 3 rating with Level 1 relating to the more basic knowledge and Level 3 having a high degree of demonstrated knowledge of the facts and concepts.
The complete idea is open to suggestions as far as what to call each level, what facts are to be known at which level, number of questions, how a breeder can prepare for an online exam such as this, etc.
I have seen some online discussion in other places and feel it is too good an idea to continue floating around with nothing being done about it.
This is an opportunity for the visitors to this site to establish and promote standards that can have an impact on the sport of rollers for many years to come.
With enough ideas and discussion, perhaps a realistic and workable process can be developed to see the idea come to fruition.
Please add your thoughts and comments. FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
244 posts
Sep 18, 2004
8:07 PM
|
Sounds great Tony. It isn't clear to me what the process is. Is someone nominated then voted on? You mentioned exam, does that entail someone soliciting you for an exam which could then result in them achieving one of these levels?
Brian.
|
rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
172 posts
Sep 19, 2004
7:21 AM
|
Brian, my thinking at the moment would be that nominations are not required. It would be a self-study program that a fancier could pursue at any time. Once an exam is successfully completed he is awarded the commensurate certificate for that level.
The “process” would be that the breeder submits an application, which gets reviewed; he is then given access to the online testing area for the level he is testing for. Both actual experience and knowledge gained from study would be a requisite to go on to a next level.
There could be a “vetting” process, for example, someone who is nominated by a level 2 or 3 is then able to take the online exam within 30 days of acceptance.
Other options might be that they have to be a member of a local club, a member of the NBRC for 1 year, participating in competition, fly in the world cup, etc.
After successfully taking and passing an exam, they would be listed on the site in a special section reserved for such people.
|
rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
173 posts
Sep 19, 2004
7:29 AM
|
Submitted By Don:
Level one should be very basic. So much so that anyone interested and willing to put in the time to research rollers and raise a few should be able to achieve it.
Level two should include joining a local club and flying in their local flys.
Level three should be for those who win in the local flys and place in the top five in the world cup.
If this is to be a certificate of achievement then there should be some achievement involved. If it is only a way of judging the knowledge one can attain about rollers then it isn't really based on achieving.
There is alot of knowledge out there about rollers. But knowing how to raise a winning kit and actually achieving it are very different.
The first level should be easy enough to help invite new members in. A sort of "hey welcome aboard. Glad you decided to come enjoy this great sport. As a token of our appreciation you're now one of us." Pretty simple. We make you feel welcome. Now when it seems everything you do with your birds is wrong, Hey at least you're in good company and there's always someone there to help.
Level two. So you're learning? Now it's time to show what you've learned. We've given you the advice, We've treated you as one of us now show us you were really listening. We don't expect perfection but at least be willing to support the club and fly your birds in the competition. We all do the same and if you want to move to the next level we expect the same from you.
Level 3. This is set aside as the level for those who have proven time and again they are the best. A one time win isn't good enough. Everyone can get lucky. Consistant wins. That's what belongs in level three.
This level should be reserved for those few who have risen to a higher level and strive to attain that level. The best of the best belong here and not just anyone can attain it.
If the standard is low then the achievement of it holds no value. Just my thoughts on it. I think it is a great idea. Don
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
246 posts
Sep 19, 2004
10:57 PM
|
Tony, I think Don's post was very good, a good baseline for consideration. I would add that in the levels somewhere shoud also be things that pertain to pigeon husbandry as a whole along with a grasp of genetics relating to rollers specifically. That way it is not just an award for winning flys, as some that are qualified roller men don't fly comps, but an award achieved for overall knowledge of everything that surrounds raising performing rollers.
Brian.
|
Mother lode lofts
196 posts
Sep 23, 2004
4:25 PM
|
On your genetics question, Bars make Bars and that is all I know. Did I pass ? LOL Genetics in rollers means one thing and that is color genetics. Other than the bare basics it's meaningless. Fly's are where the talking stops and it's time to walk the talk. Personally someone could talk to me untill they blue in the face trying to convince me how good thier birds are but there is only one way to convince me and that is to put them up. And thats the beauty of this breed, it's a sporting breed and the proof is in the pudding.
Scott
|
JUrbon
7 posts
Sep 23, 2004
8:47 PM
|
I couldn't have said it better myself Scott.
|
rotti
10 posts
Sep 24, 2004
4:26 AM
|
Great post Scott. That is exactly what I meant. First level is to make you feel welcome and part of something. Second level. Let you know you are on the right track and learning. Third level. Put up or shut up. If you don't want to fly competitions then be happy with the level you can achieve. After all you only fly for your own enjoyment. If you want to achieve the next level then put your birds to the test.Put them up against the best and see. No one can truthfully claim to have the best unless they have proven it in competition. I have no problems with a person who flies birds for the sheer enjoyment,but if they want to attain the highest level of respect they should be required to prove they deserve it. Most may be happy to attain a level of achievement they enjoy. But for some they won't be satisfied until they have reached the pinnacle. Make it an easily reached goal and it means nothing. It all depends on what you want. If your own enjoyment is it? Great. I wish you all the enjoyment in the world. I am sure you will find it. If it is to be one of the elite? Then don't expect it to be just given. Your own enjoyment is up to you but to become one of the elite is up to the whole,and the only way the whole can judge is by having competitions. If you choose not to join in the competition, so be it. Just don't expect the accolades given to those who do. Don
Last Edited by rotti on Sep 24, 2004 4:28 AM
|
Mother lode lofts
201 posts
Sep 24, 2004
7:37 AM
|
When it comes to putting up decent kit's on a fairly consistant basis it really doesn't mean that you have the "best" birds. What it means is that you know how to get the best out of your birds. You can put the best team there is in someones hands that isn't a flier and they will ruin them. But those that are consistant cover alot of ground to get there. It starts on selection in the breeding loft on to training,selection of the "good" birds,learning what makes them tick on to how to deal with the weather changes and the effect that it has on the feed can ect ect. And all of this is what makes it so fun and at the same time frustrating. Good teams take years to build. And then you end up on fly day with a yard full of people and a judge with a score sheet and all that is left for you do do is open the door to find out if you got it right and pray that they show thier potential. There is so much more that just feeding and flying. But first you must have the foundation, and "no" you do not breed out of outbirds,birds that roll blood in thier eye, sloppy deep birds,short frequent rolling birds,birds that roll great once a week or early landers, all of the above are culls plain and simple. And if you want more of the same then breed out of this garbage. I allways get a kick out of those that make the claim "oh I breed for the True Birmingham Roller and not competion birds "gimme a break all that tells me is you can't fly beans and I'll put money on it that the the good teams out there will smoke those that make such claims in both qaulity and depth. like I said earlier this is a sporting breed and these days "talk" will only impress those that don't know any better. There is only one way to impress those of us that know better and that is to put em up and let the birds do the talking. Of coarse this kind of thinking will hurt the "sales" of the feather merchants. But then they allways come up with the exscuses of why they can't back up thier talk LOL LOL
just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Sep 24, 2004 8:11 AM
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
255 posts
Sep 24, 2004
12:26 PM
|
Tony, you are going to have to clarify what you want your program to be about. Seems that the whole competition thing is blossoming again. I think you meant in a general scope, one possessing all knowledge about raising and flying rollers, not just competition scores. The NBRC has the Hall of Fame and Master Flyer Award, do we need another one specifically about the same thing? If the whole concept would be to see who can fly the best birds, then give um a trophy and a Master Flyer Award once they have earned enough points. Tony, I suspect your intent was for something much more broad and encompassing. I know guys who can fly some great kits and have great families, but don't know what they will get when they mate a black to a blue bar or a what recessive red is or how do you cure canker or what do antibiotics do to a bird's system and why are they used. What does moisture around the ring of the noise mean? What minerals do birds require? What feed specifically provokes a certain response for the short term and long term. If you see shit that looks like a brown worm with a white cap on, what does that mean? There is so much that could be included in such a test. If it's just about a kit score, then hell, sign me up and I'll fly against anyone on this list..lol. That is the only way to do it, one must fly against another for in some regions, the entire region is dominanted by Master Flyers who have alread earned that respect and keep the other potentials from ever achieving the same status one would in a more non-competitive region. And then when it is all said and done, the winner gets to say what? He won? Does that warrant a Certificate of Achievement? I guess it depends on what the notoriaty is suppose to be for.
Brian.
|
Mother lode lofts
203 posts
Sep 24, 2004
2:41 PM
|
Brian what "do" you get when you mate a black to a Blue Bar? LOL I don't have any blacks, I have dark checks. Is that close enough ? I know the next one, a rec red is a red looking bird that's red. LOL Man I'm getting better at this stuff all the time.Gimme more of that stuff LOL
Scott
P.S. I'll fly against you buddy, Tony could play bookie and we'd all have a grand time LOL , I'll stick with the level one it keeps the expectations at bay.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Sep 24, 2004 2:46 PM
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
257 posts
Sep 24, 2004
2:51 PM
|
LOL Scott, so last night when we were talking on the phone and you mentioned you had the best opal lace rollers on the planet, would you consider that a level one presumption? LOL. And just so you pass this part on the test, black x blue does not make a kind of gray color..lol
Brian.
|
Mother lode lofts
205 posts
Sep 24, 2004
3:00 PM
|
Brian obviously you misunderstood, That was opal lace whatever they are heads on a sick lineing the walk way, Why do you think Mark wanted to fight at the convention ? he kept yelling something about headless Opals LOL It's a good thing them corn fields are sure easy to hide in LOL
|
redneckhippie15
11 posts
Sep 24, 2004
3:35 PM
|
I like what I see so far from the newbie point of view.
the question I have is what if there is no local club?
I have e mailed everyone I could find online in amarillo but no luck yet. If anyone know of a club in Amarillo Texas please let me know
----------
redneckhippie*blue dot lofts*
|
rotti
12 posts
Sep 25, 2004
4:34 AM
|
I don't understand Brian. How do you judge someone elses knowledge of these birds without seeing them fly? I can learn the answers to your questions if I am willing to spend the time reading posts on here. But to actually raise a kit of rollers and have them prove I can do it. Is completely different. With the proper amount of money I am sure I could buy a world cup winning kit. Could I win the cup with this kit? Most likely not. Why? Because I would have no clue as to what made this kit fly. Weather? feed? rest? It wouldn't happen. It has to be something I do. Not something I buy. I realize the NBRC has it's standards and awards. I don't agree with everything they do. So be it. But here we are offerd the chance to set up an award that we would want to achieve. I for one want the goal to be set very high. Not something inconcievable but something to spend a considerable amount of time effort and sweat to achieve. Tony has done a great job of providing a place where a newbie feels welcome. Where the free flow of information isn't hinderd by biasis. Now he wants to make an award based on your achievment as a breeder of rollers. How would you have him judge your abilities? Maybe a test of genetics? Learned it in biology class. Maybe a test of diseases? Learned about them in health class. How about a test of the kit you just raised? Maybe fly them under a judge picked by your local club to judge all the birds in the region? I am new to this so you tell me. If the birds are bred to roll then shouldn't we judge them on the ability to roll? And judge the breeder on his ability to breed birds that roll? I am not being sarcastic I just think that if you want to be awarded the highest respect you should prove you deserve it and if you don't fly your birds for anyone else to critique then how can you say they deserve the respect? As the newbie in this discussion I feel the top achievement should be something I can try to achieve. If it is something I can achieve without ever raising a bird or flying in a competition then why would I strive to achieve it? It has to be something I have to work for. That's why the three levels. Something I can achieve by the nature of my interest and willing to join. Next something I can achieve with my persistence and growing knowledge. Next something I can achieve by proving myself. I don't know how else to explain this. Set the goal high and we will achieve it. Set the goal low and we will acieve it. Don
|
Mother lode lofts
208 posts
Sep 25, 2004
7:58 AM
|
Don your a thinker !!!!! You should make a good flier.
Scott
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
261 posts
Sep 25, 2004
3:43 PM
|
Don, in case you have forgotten I'll repost what Tony suggested.....
"I am humbly proposing an online Certificate Of Achievement to be awarded by Roller-Pigeon.Com to be based on demonstrated knowledge of facts relating to the pigeon in general and specifically to the roller pigeon."
"The Certificate of Achievement would come with a Level 1, Level 2 and Level 3 rating with Level 1 relating to the more basic knowledge and Level 3 having a high degree of demonstrated knowledge of the facts and concepts."
"The complete idea is open to suggestions as far as what to call each level, what facts are to be known at which level, number of questions, how a breeder can prepare for an online exam such as this, etc."
Unless I am not reading this correctly, no where does it state, require or suggest that competition scores and/or placings should be the basis for this award.
"Demonstrated knowledge of facts relating to the pigeon in general and specifically to the roller pigeon" does not imply competition achievements. Again, maybe I can't see the forest through the trees. Correct me if I am wrong Don.
I understand your intent and motivation and maybe there can be two different awards Tony can create. One for who scores the most points and one for who can answer the questions about general roller knowledge on the test he creates. Both can have "high" standards which are difficult to attain. Simple resolution.
Keep in mind Don, unless Tony changes the direction and intent of his suggested award, it has nothing to do with how well your birds perform in competition. (Tony, please correct me if I am dilusional). I fly every competition I can enter, 10 or more a year so I have no problem with an award for who can put up quality rollers. I fly against Master Flyers, National Fly and World Cup fly winners every month, so I have no problem putting my birds up against the best, though 9 times out of 10 they will kick my ass..lol. But that was not the intent of this idea to begin with. The insight that created this suggested award is due to the enormous question and answering that goes on here each and every day.
You stated "how about a test of the kit I just raised" Pick one of the seven and you can be the judge. Or you can go off whatever I score in our NBRC Fall Fly Quals in two weeks against 35 other flyers in this area. And I take you will be doing the same correct? By the way, respect is something you earn on a personal level, not by the quality of birds you fly. The most genuine people I know in this roller game are not the big winners. You earn respect through your personality with your peers, again, not by how good your birds are.
I agree with Scott, you are a thinker and will no doubt do well in flys in the coming years.
Brian.
|
rotti
14 posts
Sep 27, 2004
12:18 AM
|
Thanks Scott and Brian. First off I am sorry Brian to inform you that no I won't be flying a kit in competition this fall. I have fifteen left in my kit and they are my first kit. And to be honest if I could keep my neighbors from watching when I fly them I would. I have made every mistake there is with them. They are probably very good birds but their trainer lacks the experience needed to train a good kit. That's why I try to glean as much info here as possible. Now back to Tony's certificate of acievement. You are correct that Tony never mentioned scores in flys. He said "demonstrated knowledge".So how would you propose demonstrating the knowledge of a breed bred to roll? I can buy good stock and breed to conform to the standard of pretty much anything. Chickens for instance come in recognized breeds with an accepted standard. I've won the local shows before. You can breed your own or buy chicks and raise them. Either way it isn't hard to win. Just pick the birds that best conform to the standard and show them. Now how do I pick the birds that roll best and show them to others without flying them? I am having a hard time explaining my point of view to you Brian. It goes like this. I can tell you I am the worlds best cook. You say prove it. I say how? You send me a test. It covers the entire gammit of cooking. I scan the internet and find the answers to all your questions. Not only do I ace the test I actually tell you things you didn't even consider. Does this mean I can cook? Maybe. Maybe not. It only means I have the knowledge. What I do with it is what counts.That's where the proof is. I can raise pigeons. I can even fly pigeons. But I'm getting my ass kicked by these rollers. By the standards I myself suggested I would barely qualify for level 1 status. Level 2 seems years away. Level 3 would only be a dream. You said you fly against the best every month. "nine times out of ten they kick my ass" No offense intended but do you feel you deserve the same accolades as those that are "kicking your butt"? Or do you feel they have something you can learn or strive to achieve? Obviously you are years ahead of me in this game. And if I lived near you I would probably bug you to death for info and birds. But I don't think Tony's award is about one person or even one region. It should be,in my opinion,about the birds. And these birds seem to do their best when the person training them gives his best. So I stand by my earlier post. It has to come down to competition.You don't breed race horses and claim to be the best without racing them. Anyone can take two great horses and breed them. And never win anything. Anyone can take two great rollers and breed them. But breeding and raising a winning kit is something few can do. If it were easy why would we do it? So why should Tony's award be easy? If it's all about answering a test? Send me the test. I am sure that within a week or two I can find the answers on here. It would be simple. And then after the test is done and I have a "certificate of achievement" I'll experience the let down and eventually give up the roller game because it was only a joke anyways. I'd rather put in the time and effort and maybe never achieve the ultimate than achieve something meaningless. Don
Last Edited by rotti on Sep 27, 2004 12:37 AM
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
266 posts
Sep 27, 2004
12:41 PM
|
Don I would first start by saying that no one should be sent a test. It should be that you sit down, log on and have that one time to answer the questions asked whatever they may be. This message board is a prime example of why more people SHOULD search the internet and read books about everything pigeon related because frankly in the blue collar pigeon world, most simply do not have the knowledge or sometimes even the willingness to learn. I am amazed sometimes that some of they guys I know who have successful families of birds, don't know the simplest of things about understanding an illness and what to treat it with. I know one master flyer that came to me asking why his hens were all humped up and the babies were spraddle legged. Simple stuff that everyone should know, but even the some of the best who can win it all and put up good birds, are clueless in the big picture. Sometimes I can't believe that some people who have managed to put up a good kit and do well, don't know the basic principles of pigeon husbandry. Sad really.
You said..."No offense intended but do you feel you deserve the same accolades as those that are "kicking your butt"? Or do you feel they have something you can learn or strive to achieve?"
I don't look for accolades. In fact, one of them told me the other day that someday I will have guys standing on my doorstep looking to get birds from me. I told him I will direct them all to his house as I don't want people wanting my rollers. I could care less how or what someone thinks about the way I fly birds, the quality of my birds or any other accolades they want to throw around. Matters not to me. To others it might. I don't want to achieve anything they have in the manner in which they have done it. Other than one of those people whom I consider a hero of sorts, one I highly respect for his ability to put up a good kit. Unfortunately he is the one who I have to teach sometimes about general pigeon stuff. The others breed hundreds of 3 month wonder kits to be used as ammunition until they are dead or of no use anymore. They can put up some great kits on fly day, but its a month by month deal and they start over with fresh birds every year. They subscribe to a method of "tweaking" management that I do not and will not succumb to get make the birds do more than they would without being "juiced up". Like I said Don, respect is something you earn, not achieve. Nothing is automatic do to success.
Don, though we could go round and round on this topic for days. I am a pure to the core competition flyer. I could care less about dead historians and dead pigeons of the past. To me it is all about competition and winning, personal goals I have set for myself. But that doesn't change the fact that Tony's intent differs from what you would like to see it promoted as. I ask you this, if someone could breed a proven family of birds and do well with them, does that make them the best? The birds I get beat by are only the best for a few months, then they are dead or disturbed. But lets say you become this great flyer of rollers. Does that mean you can answer the broad spectrum of questions about raising and flying rollers? Just because someone can succeed a time or two, doesn't necessarily make them one who could "demonstrate knowledge of facts pertaining to". How many guys who have been very successful in the past 10-20 years do you see writing articles and books about their successes? The ones you do read are from guys just like you, me and scott and an endless list of others. If its an award simply for crossing a finish line, then so be it. There are already awards for that.
Brian.
|
rotti
15 posts
Sep 27, 2004
11:13 PM
|
Brian,I see your point and agree wholeheartedly. I proposed a list of qualifications at the beginning of this. It isn't the "list". It was just what I thought would be a good starting point for this. In the end it all comes down to Tony's decision. It is after all an award he will be awarding. I just hope we have given the insight into what makes some roller people tick so that he can make his award something we will want to achieve. Don
|
rotti
19 posts
Oct 02, 2004
4:23 AM
|
I almost let this go without saying how I really think about this award. No matter how any of us feel about it and no matter Tony's intent. It comes down to this. You either accept their standard or you set your own standard. Either way it is up to you. Tony will set the standard for his cerificate of achievement. We will either support him in this or not. Either way it eventually falls on each of us to decide what we want to accomplish in this sport. If Tony sets his standard above what you think you can achieve... so be it. If he sets it below what you think you can achieve will you even try? In the end you get what you expect. Expect failure you will get failure. Expect success you will achieve success. Tony, set your standard and expect us to meet it. Don't accept less. Don
|
