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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
inbreeding and linebreeding
inbreeding and linebreeding
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Abdullah
Guest
Sep 10, 2004
4:28 PM
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If inbreeding and linebreeding is such a good method of producing top quality spinners and livestock (longhorn, black angus,)
Why is it not done with racehorses ? they race for millions of dollers (Kentucky Derby).(Breeders Cup).
I am sure the Breeders in kentucky would have tried every possible method to create fast racehorses(thoroughbreds).
Breeders are always producing Champions (Smarty Jones) by crossing different familys of Thoroughbreds.
If you visit the succesful breeding farms in kentucky you would see that they breed from a variety of good race horses and not a certain STRAIN.
If it was as simple as breeding father to daughter son to mother cousin to cousin to produce Champions IM sure they would practicing this method of producing GREAT STOCK!!!!
If Im correct didnt Pensom himself once say "BEST TO BEST REGARDLESS"!!!!
Yours In the sport "THE BUTCHER"
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
232 posts
Sep 10, 2004
11:14 PM
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Butcher, I suspect there are several reasons why race horse breeders wouldn't inbreed or line breed. One that stands out to me is that the more advanced the life form, the more complicated, and conversely, detrimental proper development becomes. Kind of like why inbred humans are not "super human"..lol.
My father was once a quarter-horse racer, and like the Thoroughbreds, they bred for race horses, not future prodigy. Hybrid vigor usually is what is sought. Which is why, like you said, you will find a variety of "strains" of horses in the stable. The strains or families are crossed to create hybrid vigor horses which are the best for racing. It has been noted that just about all of the champion race horses never reproduced race horses of their quality.
Many racing homer guys I know do the same thing. They keep several families in the loft and breed those families together just for the race team. Other pairs are mated closely together to produce stock birds of those respective families the following year. Seldom does a race team bird make it into the loft, unless it was truly a stand out winner.
Many roller guys have a couple of families which they cross to create the hybrid vigor which can result in some really active and good performers, which are used for competition. But as most will tell you who have tried this, including myself, the crosses are junk for breeding, unless the cross was somewhat similar, like say a 514 bred bird to a 272 bred bird, their background is somewhat closer than say one of those to a jac roller.
When someone finds a key bird and wants to build a family of more like it, inbreeding and line breeding are the best, and really, only way to accomplish this. I suppose there is no exact and foolproof way to guarantee specific results, but inbreeding a line breeding to a single bird or say, two birds of the same family, will eventually bring out the better qualities in that bird, which is what the breeders are seeking to do for the long haul.
Brian.
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Thor
26 posts
Sep 11, 2004
1:41 PM
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Hi Abdullah,
Personally, if I line breed or inbreed... it's because I see something in that linage that intriques me. Take for example a line I am currently line breeding on, Stan Plona's 1971 PRC 14686. Most of the top spinning and producing birds have 14686 in their background. You'll see it pop up numerous of times in many of these, meaning it was heavily bred back to it. Of course I wasn't around back then to see 14686 in action in the air but with good records (like pedigrees), I see that he did his part in the breeding pen very well. True to a Champion, his progeny did as well. That's what I look most for when I look at pedigrees of birds... what works with what and is it able to reproduce generation after generation. Note that not all lines or families can handle inbreeding or line breeding. Remember, inbreeding not only brings out the best but also the worst of genes. The worst scenario of inbreeding or line breeding is if that line carried a recessive weakness. This trait will become dominate once these two recessive genes are put together. This can be any number of things, like a weakness to any particular disease or a disorder which causes siezures when excited (I don't recall the name of it) or etc.
Inbreeding or Linebreeding can be a tool but only when someone knows how to use it will it do any good.
I am not sure why Race Horse breeders don't use inbreeding or linebreeding but if I had to guess, I would say that it had to be due to them stirring up the gene pool so to get as healthy of a specimen as possible. This would also mean that they bred alot of unwanted specimens to get that one Champion.
I have to agree with what Brian said up above, that altho the progeny of the mating of two familys do well in the air... they fall short in producing anything worth while (of course I am talking about two un-related familys).
Flying them,
Thor
P.S. Thinking about it, it is hard trusting another men's stock (especially someone who you don't know personally) to penetrate your breeding program. With all the cross breeding done today, it is hard to say what is in someone else's stock. I guess that is another reason why inbreeding and line breeding is such a common patice with the top guys. Remember, inbreeding and line breeding is a tool! Everytime we bring something new in, it's as tho we are starting all over again (weaving out the undesirable from the desirable).
Last Edited by Thor on Sep 11, 2004 1:44 PM
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Mother lode lofts
181 posts
Sep 11, 2004
5:22 PM
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Without inbreeding/linebreeding there is nothing, there is no family,strain, nothing. just a collection of birds like dishes in the cupboard that came from throwing dimes at the fair and such birds are just as "inconsistant" in every aspect of them both in type and in mental. In other words just this and that but not much of anything on a whole.Inbreeding and linebreeding is a valuable tool when done properly and the right birds were used. Done improperly and you have nothing. Done with the wrong birds that have have fault after fault covered up by continually using unrelated birds my never be able to inbreed due to the faults out weighing the good as inbreeding and linebreeding brings both to the surface so no it is just as simple as breeding father to daughter ect.. As for horses, I don't know and I could really care less, but thier breeding practices could be due to how long it takes to know what you actually have where Pigeons can tell you from generation after generation and it doesn't take 5 years per generation.
Just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Sep 11, 2004 6:03 PM
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Siddiqir
101 posts
Sep 13, 2004
11:19 AM
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Really good post. I am wondering if you guys put more words and explain bit more about how "inbreed tool"(how to do it right away).
What I understand is pick best from the air and put it back mother-son, father-daughter etc...
"inbreed tool" - how to follow this process for create good family...what are bad things to look for
Thanks, -Rauf
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Leo
1 post
Sep 21, 2004
2:40 PM
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ABDULLAH, many race horses are inbred and line bred,Calumet Farms had mares inbred 4x4x4 to the great Bull Lea stallion. The great Impressive, became the greatest QH sire of all time he was TB he had the great 3 BARS in his background 3 times close up. Impressive was so well balanced and so pretty that QH breeders from everywhere bred their mares to him . Seabiscuit and War Admiral in the movie matced raced, both horses were of MAN OF WAR blood close up I have several IMPRESSIVE bred mares in my band of broodmares .These are just examples of a few to help LEO
Last Edited by Leo on Sep 21, 2004 2:46 PM
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Mother lode lofts
187 posts
Sep 21, 2004
10:01 PM
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So this is why you can't just buy horses that should be headed for the glue factory and hit the tracks with them and expect to do well LOL, you think that this holds true for rollers also ? hmmmm
Good post Leo, without linebreeding/inbreeding there's nothing and as you pointed out this holds true with horses also(only makes sence).
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Sep 21, 2004 10:02 PM
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
175 posts
Sep 22, 2004
5:15 AM
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Rauf, what I like to do with my breeding program is to maintain or try to improve on what I call the 5 Primary Traits (in this order):
1. Roll
2. Velocity
3. Depth
4. Control
5. Type
Using this as my standard, I select flyers that best represent these traits. In my loft as everything is related I have a really good idea of the birds I want to pair and of what I get (general rule) from them.
Since I am breeding from the same gene pool, I tend to get a consistent look in my Ruby Rollers as well as performance.
You ask "how to do it right away"? The first step of a successful loft is to start with the best birds you can obtain. They should have no less than the 5 Primary Traits.
Remember, inbreeding allows you to work within a specific gene pool and after enough pairings and selections, you minimize the negative traits (minimal rolling, loose performance, too shallow, lack of control, non-balanced body among others). FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Leo
2 posts
Sep 22, 2004
8:58 AM
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Allright, here goes.....I have pure Pensom since 50s, u guys that hesitate to inbreed...Listen Up...I bred a lavender pr Father to his daughter 7 seven times the birds were fine..still rolled..had vigor..BUT..the seventh time they came pure white ..instead of lavender, now these whites throw whites no matter what color they are mated to plus these whites have the ..elusive..Pearl Eyes ...so i have a Family of whites that i have mated to Plonas 71 14686 which was white tic one of the cocks carries 14686 six 6 times in his background ..these offspring are GORGOUS to see they are LIQUID SMOKE in the air..15ft plus. Mother nature was telling me 7 seven times was Enough and gave me whites as a warning. IF u think this post is interesting ...stay tuned I have a 514 family that has 514 over 70 seventy times ...no bro x sis matings either. Leo
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Mother lode lofts
188 posts
Sep 22, 2004
9:50 AM
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Leo hows the feather qaulity on the white's ? my buddy Jack Meyers also has a line of whites out of the Smiths that can smoke. I'm not sure how long they will inbreed once they hit this point though. White does take over. I think that I'm more interested in your 514 line. Tell us more. To be honest with you I get a little sceptical of many that talk up "tight up" 514 as so many have done this to just look good on paper (Pedigree breeding). In no way am I saying that this is what "you" have done. I would like to here whats below your 514 line and more importantly what you see now. In other words where have you taken it. Are they stiff ? I think that this line got a bad rap of being stiff due to so many pedigree breeding and not breeding for performance. Selection is the key, and without the proper selection inbreeding is a dead end street !!
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Sep 22, 2004 9:53 AM
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