Jr.
Guest
Sep 05, 2004
6:10 PM
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Has anyone crossed birds from different World Cup winning families together? What were the results? What families are they?
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Steve Sissel
Guest
Sep 06, 2004
1:40 PM
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Jr.
I have Roes,Benders,Neibles,Burkes which come from the Mee family and Oulettes.
Each family has its own merits and some faults as all families do.
These families were worked and purged of the bad genes or traits by the individual men.
Crossing only opens up a new gene pool.
Keep them within their own family to see the best results.
Steve
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
163 posts
Sep 06, 2004
7:47 PM
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Interesting question. But one that does not lead to where you would hope it would go. Mixing families, even world cup winners, you end up mixing and really going backward as you are "starting all over".
It would be better to obtain a good quality performing family and work to maintain or improve on them by good selection and through careful breeding and thorough training of offspring. FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Sep 06, 2004 7:49 PM
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jr
Guest
Sep 07, 2004
2:07 PM
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steve, looks like you got some good families there! I see that crossing might be bad and open up a can of worms. Out of those families which one is the easiest to work with? I'd like to have some birds that I wouldn't have to break down to bring out the roll and heard that Neible and Oulett birds can be stiff and need a tight hand on the feed can. Are the Mee birds like that too?
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Steve S.
Guest
Sep 07, 2004
8:16 PM
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Jr.,
The Roe birds are the only ones that I have found that don't need to much adjustment of feed.
Steve
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Anonymous
Guest
Sep 07, 2004
8:29 PM
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What is behind the Roe birds?
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Steve S.
Guest
Sep 07, 2004
10:28 PM
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Anon,
Mostly Carl Hardesty old line of birds.
Steve
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K.Naylor
17 posts
Sep 08, 2004
8:04 AM
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I totally disagree about crossing families will ruin them and go backwards. Usually by crossing families is how you start your own family. Plus alot of guys get their best kit birds by crossing families. One example is the #285 bird. It was a mix of different families and then was made into one family. Now look how those birds turned out.
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Mother lode lofts
166 posts
Sep 08, 2004
10:30 AM
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Keven KGBs 285 foundation hen was not tight inbred but she still came down out of the sparks/McCauly line. As for making your own family the quikest way from point A to B is create a family out of a good established family,particular birds will take you in particlar directions that others working with the same family can't even go due to having the same related birds but "different",you can create many different lines by starting with even a pair of siblings,after so many generations you can be linebreeding instead of inbreeding even though you started with a full bro/sis pair in the beginning. And down the line more lines can be created out of those line's, one pair of birds have the potential to take you a long way as long as they are the right pair of birds to start with in the beginning. Basicly what I am saying here is that there is no reason to ever cross families other than hybred vigor. And I whole heartedly believe that it will be a set back. That is as long as what you start with allready has what you need in the gene pool as far as qaulity and depth and isn't full of major faults such as outflying,instability, or birds that roll blood in the eye.
Scott
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K.Naylor
18 posts
Sep 08, 2004
11:13 AM
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From what I was told 285 was a mix of different lines. Then that bird was pured out by inbreeding. Also how close was the dummy stuff, 285 stuff and the krenzy stuff when KGB started? I also know that you can make your own family by crossing two families. Then you can start honing in on some particular birds by inbreeding.
Last Edited by K.Naylor on Sep 08, 2004 11:15 AM
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Bill
Guest
Sep 08, 2004
1:06 PM
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Motherlode if crossing families is a setback then are you saying Pensom was wrong to bring in the English birds and cross them when he already had everything he needed in his family? Surely he didn't do it for hybrid vigor if everything was already there! How was the results a setback for him?
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Siddiqir
98 posts
Sep 08, 2004
1:10 PM
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My input: First I never crossed…will lead to long road. There may be success and require years of work and lot of patient
I guess Scott C. base touch on this topic in one of the past post here.
I would say the chances of good and bad would be 50/50.
The more families you crossed in the more time it will take to proof the offspring is good or bad. I guess crossing two families will take about 2-3 years to proof what you getting out of those birds + plus if they turn out good then tightly inbreeding will produce new good family
Well I guess it is just time consuming and require lot of patient. If I get good bloodline I will just simple inbreed and then pick best from the air and continue to that until all bad things are out..
If you cross two families together for example Mee and Reed and then keep tightly inbreed, you will eventually get good results...just my thought
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Anonymous
Guest
Sep 08, 2004
1:54 PM
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why do you think it will take a long time to get good results? the crosses could work out great the very first time you try. if you are crossing two inbred families that have been selectively bred for a long time then most of the bad traits were most likely not showing up anymore. crossing families can create a more diverse gene pool which may have just what you are looking for. sometimes crosses can SAVE you time in developing a good line of birds. you won't really be sure unless you try.
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K.Naylor
19 posts
Sep 08, 2004
2:04 PM
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There are alot of top flyers that cross right now to make good kit birds. Another thing is if you are working within one family and you want to bring something in to help a weekness that your family has. Then you can bring in an outcross. I personally do not think it will set you back. as long as you start with good birds in the beginning.
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Siddiqir
100 posts
Sep 08, 2004
2:05 PM
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Hello Anon, if you closely read the article below by following the link you will get the answer.
Breeding
Again answer is there you just need to pay attention. There are two pages, link to 2nd pages is at the bottom of website
Last Edited by Siddiqir on Sep 08, 2004 2:08 PM
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Mother lode lofts
167 posts
Sep 08, 2004
2:15 PM
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Keven all of Kennys line's tie in together above the foundation or sibblings of the foundation. The "Dummy" line being the furthest away and closer to 313 but still ties in on one side. Then he started the heavy inbreeding of these related birds (the foundation) and creating heavily inbreed line's. and by doing this it left someplace to go for fresh blood which is pulled in from the lines allready within the family Which were out linebreeding. But they connect up above and from injections of the various line's through out.Bottom line is it was far from straight outcrosses.
Scott
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Mother lode lofts
168 posts
Sep 08, 2004
2:53 PM
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Bill if you go back some years none of these birds fall far from the same tree. And that includes the lofts in England. One thing that you have to keep in mind is that there was a time when inbreeding just wasn't done due to old superstitions and lack of knowledge of that time. the way I understand it is that Pensom fell into that same catagory untill he saw what Smith had done with his birds through inbreeding. The name of the game is percentages of good one's produced and whether the offspring produce and thier off Sping produce, for this you need to circle the wagons tightly around the good one's, and that is a family. Personally I have never seen good percentages over the long haul out of out cross families at least not the same as a good tight family as there is a lot of chasing to find out what will reproduce. Not that it can't be done,nor does that mean that some families won't click,but why do it ? It's hard enough as it is without throwing obsticles your path. Personally I would take a tightly bred B team bird out of a good family over a star out of some loose knit crossed up bunch. My money says that the odds of the bird out of a good tight family producing are far greater than the other. It's simple, tight gene pool verses an exploded gene pool. just my opinion of coarse.
Scott
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Sep 08, 2004 2:59 PM
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K.Naylor
20 posts
Sep 09, 2004
7:46 AM
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Like you said Scott the Dummy bird ties in on one side. If it doesnt on the other side what would that make it????
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Mother lode lofts
175 posts
Sep 09, 2004
9:17 AM
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It makes it a bird more distantly related than the rest due to a bird above being bred a different way. Kevin I think that you need to go to the source and or your more than welcome to pour over the records that are here.As years have gone by many of these families have gotten further and further apart. You get further out East and some have the Whittingham and old FireBall crossed in which were not Pensom imports and are even further away. I think what it boils down to as far as how easy or hard it is for success of crossing families is the compatibility of the families being crossed. You take the Jaq. based families that generally handle completely different than say this family. You can't even fly them in the same kit for the most part. Start crossing them up and you will produce birds leaning both ways and you will have a much longer road ahead of you to pull it together and thats if you can keep from bringing in other birds. My money says that in the end though who ever is crossing families will be leaning heavily and breeding towards one family or the other anyway in the end, So where does that put you LOL.
Most of the main families today were developed by chasing and aquiring particular birds around particular families
Scott
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Sep 09, 2004 10:22 AM
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K.Naylor
21 posts
Sep 09, 2004
1:01 PM
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Scott, the bottom line is that it has and can be done. That is what my original post said. I will prove it to you when you are away at the convention and I am house sitting for you. Wait and see how I have your birds crossed when you get back. Then next year you will be thanking me because you will have the best kit you have ever flown!!LOL
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Mother lode lofts
177 posts
Sep 09, 2004
1:58 PM
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Kevin who said it can't be done ? Next week you just feed them little Bastards and keep your grubby hands off of em LOL
Scott
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K.Naylor
22 posts
Sep 09, 2004
2:39 PM
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I already have some birds coming in. They might be related to one of your original breeders. remember the "White Bar Cock". LOL Don't worry about nothing, you and Tammy go have a great time. The birds will be in great hands!!
Last Edited by K.Naylor on Sep 09, 2004 2:40 PM
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jr
Guest
Sep 09, 2004
3:37 PM
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Scott I want fist choice on the fantail/roller crosses. I think that the bigger tail is what I need to slow my birds down from those ultra high velocity blood in your eye rolls. Ha Ha!
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Mother lode lofts
178 posts
Sep 09, 2004
3:45 PM
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That won't work either JR they'll be poking each others eye's with them tails LOL
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Anonymous
Guest
Sep 10, 2004
1:18 PM
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Motherlode in your opinion was it a waste of time or the long way around for Higgens to cross his birds with the Reed birds? What problems does Higgens have since he crossed?
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K.Naylor
23 posts
Sep 10, 2004
1:27 PM
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Hey scott I wouldn't answer any questions unless the guy has the guts to put his name down.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
229 posts
Sep 10, 2004
1:58 PM
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Agree with ya there Kevin!
Brian.
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Mother lode lofts
179 posts
Sep 10, 2004
2:00 PM
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Is there a reason you don't put your name ???? what are you asking me for ? ask Jerry, besides I don't think he crossed them in, I think that he completly switched families. And I'll bet you money that it wasn't wishful thinking and grabbing birds from here and there. In other words it was planned and calculated as far what blood he was going to run with.And I'm sure that he has different lines to cross for the hybred vigor that are only used in the kitbox as most do. But again you need to ask him.
Scott
PS leave your name next time
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Sep 10, 2004 2:03 PM
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Bill
Guest
Sep 10, 2004
2:00 PM
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Sorry Im Bill.
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Bill
Guest
Sep 10, 2004
2:03 PM
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Sorry again I assumed from reading prior listings that everone knew everyone on th bulletin board
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Mother lode lofts
180 posts
Sep 10, 2004
2:04 PM
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OK Bill, were just getting a little weary of the guys that won't post thier name's, Bill cross away
Scott
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