Dry Creek lofts
45 posts
Sep 01, 2004
7:09 AM
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Here’s a challenge to you old time competition flyers as brain said in a post a ways back controversy sells.
How about you old timers to competition start a thread that deals with training a young bird team or kit as it were and tell us new comers to the sport some of the basics on how to get our birds up and flying. Also what and how to feed a young bird team as I have heard two or three different opinions as to how this should be done.
Some say that you should starve them down and some say you should feed them up wile they are young.
A step-by-step thread would help the young guys out and put them on the right track and probably keep some from losing birds that they do not need to lose.
If Brain or Scott or any of the competition Flyers would just take it one step at a time it would be of interest to all who do not know how to train and feed properly.
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Anonymous
Guest
Sep 01, 2004
8:21 AM
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You may not going to see any good follow up on this threat. As brian said "Its human nature to be drawn to the "fire" and action" and this threat is about let new fancier know how to do things right.
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Guest
Guest
Sep 01, 2004
9:06 AM
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Now thats a pretty cynical response. You took the time to read his post/question. Do you have anything to offer to the thread besides your cynicism?
Step 1: Be sure all birds are similiar in age. So there is some consistency of expectation of development...
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K.Naylor
7 posts
Sep 01, 2004
9:13 AM
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Everyone has different ways of doing things and there is no 100% right way. That is what makes it so much fun. To me first thing is to make sure that the youngsters are healthy and eating good after you wean them. Then I starve them down just to get them trained to trap or go back into the kit box. This is how I start things off. One other thing is that there is no threat to helping new guys out. I wish that all these Annon would get some guts and put who they are, or Tony would make thta to post you have to.
Last Edited by K.Naylor on Sep 01, 2004 9:15 AM
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Mother lode lofts
155 posts
Sep 01, 2004
9:28 AM
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Chuck, oldtimer I'm not. But "my" birds I do know. this is just a general view and very basic. I'm a firm believer in hard bodied birds rolling hard more consistant than starved birds. I dispise the term "starve" nor do I think that there is a need for it. But you do need to learn to "condition" the birds when they mature as fat rollers are like "fat" men trying to run a marithon.
1. "you have to build the team". the closer in age they are the easier it is.But many here due to the lack of numbers that they are breeding aren't able to do this and end up with all ages and that makes it very difficult.plus everytime that more birds are added it retards the development of the older ones, As they are all on different pages. My last youngster team of the season has a much wider gap in age right now. Some are flying and some are a week out before I can even pull from parents.
2. As I'm building the team the first thing I do is get them used to a method of what they consider is the dinner bell, in my case it is whistling. once they know this you just set them on top of the kitbox before they are strong enough to fly. At this point generally they will either go in on thier own or they won't,some you may need to pluck off of the roof once the sun sets. but it doesn't take long to get them used to the idea. At this stage I do not use the trap as it is too hard for them to use the landing board. Instead I just leave the door wide open.Generally I just open the door and let them feel thier way in and out due to my roof is out of reach, otherwise I would just set them on top. Some get it fast and other don't and again you just bring them in after the sun sets.At first they will just go to the roof. never ever push them up. let them to it on thier own. if some are slow getting up and flying then I'll flag em once just to get thier feet off of the loft and that is it. You cannot push them fast!!!!!
3. once you have them up and flying and going into the box then that is it for the proccess.And I don't bother with the trap until they have been up for a couple of weeks. I just open the door. As you are adding younger's to the team you must make sure that they are getting enough food. Generally I will pull them out and feed them up(the youngest exspecially). I also handle all of these guy's and make sure that they "all" are getting plenty by checking the crops to make sure that they got plenty.I give them all they want at this stage
3. Once they are all airborn,kitting and know where thier home is (The Box)I keep them fed up. they are like kids and and need lots of food. You can feed them all that they want and the next day they act like they havnt been fed in a week. Once they slow down getting into the box then I cut them back to just enough so that they don't screw around on the roof.I feed them a mix up until bout 6 mo. after that they may start getting a run of a few days of wheat.or if they are flying fast I'll slow them down with the wheat. then mix, then a few days of wheat.As they get older they need less and less unless it starts getting cold
The above revovles around flying once a day. and 24 hrs or so between feeding.Also make sure that they are drinking (the babys) if you see blinky eye's dip thier beaks in the water KEEP AN EYE ON THEM this is very important,and make sure that they eating !!!!!!!!!!
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Sep 01, 2004 4:40 PM
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AD3
19 posts
Sep 01, 2004
10:48 AM
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Hope everyone and their birds are ok. There really is not a SET or DEFAULT way of developing rollers but it is generally the same. We should always remember that our training technique is very important and rollers performace's depends on us; the trainers. In order of importance as far as having a good quality kit,training is only second to the stock/breeders you are working with. The most important aspect of traning is consistency.
Of course there are other factors already meantioned such as the family or line you are working with. This usually doesn't have a big impact on the differences in training but you must consider how others that are working with that particular family or the person you attained the birds from are traning them. I wrote a day by day summary from the hatching point to rolling but it is a bit long to copy here. I do change this frequently as I see fit and depending on the age groups of the squabs I wean. If you would like to view how I train you can visit my website by following the link below.
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AD3 Online Loft @ http://ad3rollers.no-ip.com
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Anonymous
Guest
Sep 01, 2004
12:42 PM
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I believe he is looking for basic...would not matter which family of birds or strain we are working with. The peoples who are claming that it is impossible to explain would have not either have good experience with rollers or just do not want to pass some good stuff to new guys
Basic training, feeding is more or less same in all family of "ROLLERS"
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Dry Creek lofts
46 posts
Sep 01, 2004
1:38 PM
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Good post Scott,
This is what is needed for the younger flyers so as to let them where to start and it dose not matter what family you are flying it is just important to let them know how to do the basics in feeding training and loft care and such.
In feeding what are the reasons for feeding certain grains such as milo-wheat-peas and corn and what happens when you feed these grains.
Why do you think that this happens with the birds?
I know that every family is different but in most cases you will get the same reaction with any roller to some degree so it should not matter just what family it is.
Again great post
Chuck
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K.Naylor
11 posts
Sep 01, 2004
1:41 PM
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Different families really do matter on what you feed. I know that with the family that I fly you can hammer them with straight wheat to get them to perform.(this is only on mature fliers that are allready spinning) But if you try this with some Jacanetts they will crash real hard on you.
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Dry Creek lofts
47 posts
Sep 01, 2004
2:16 PM
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In training my birds to both home and to trap I put them on the roof in a wire enclosure when they are just starting to fly.
The enclosures is built as to cover the landing board and let the youngsters move from the inside of the kit box onto the landing board and up on the roof of the kit box.
I try to let them stay in this for about a week or so and drop one wire bob per day in the last few days this way they get use to going in on there own and when I call them to feed they come right in.
After a week or so I take the wire enclosure of and let them fly around if they want I do not force them to fly.
After a day or two they are flying around the area of the kit box and when they here the feed call in they come.
As I have posted in previous post I have flown Race Birds for a long time and it is the same training that I used for them as I use now to get my youngsters out and up flying.
Keep them flying
Chuck
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Dry Creek lofts
48 posts
Sep 01, 2004
2:39 PM
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Kevin you may be right but I think that most of the time that if you are starting out with young birds that they pretty much need the same type of feed but the amounts may vary from family to family, all young birds need plenty of feed to grow and mature on.
To starve them is to short them on things that they will need to perform later.
I am not saying that you can’t cut back on the feed a little to get them to trap when you call them but they are still in the development part of there lives and need all the nourishments they can get.
This is just my way of looking at it.
Keep them flying
Chuck
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jr
Guest
Sep 01, 2004
2:39 PM
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this is a good thing, trying to help the beginners, but all the information they will need is in the roller books and magazines. I would encourage all newcomers to join the NBRC, get Pensom's book and study it, and use this message board for reference on specific issues or for questions.
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Guest
Guest
Sep 01, 2004
2:53 PM
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Asking questions such as these are one of the main reasons for this discussion page. I have seen more insightful thoughts here than in any book on rollers I have seen.
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K.Naylor
12 posts
Sep 01, 2004
2:54 PM
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Chuck, I agree with you for the most part. I always starve my young birds right before I let them out the first couple of times only to train them to get back into the kit box. after that then I feed them well. I only mess with the feeding once they are into a true roll. On another note I would like to come by and visit one day. I am a good friend of Dan Cowells, he has told me about you.
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jr
Guest
Sep 01, 2004
3:44 PM
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Guil rand has a nice book for beginners that covers about everything.not sure what the name of it was but i seen it a couple years back. the Kowlaski book is good too. a new fancier should get the basics down from books, NBRC magazines, and using this site will answer questions that the books and magazines don't. also the new flyer needs to get out and see other birds fly, alot.
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Mother lode lofts
161 posts
Sep 01, 2004
4:02 PM
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Gee JR sorry that we don't know how to train our birds and passing out such bunk info. Maybe I should grab a book and forget what some of us have learned first hand. Explain to me what is so important about about getting info such as this out of a book. The only book out there with any real insight is Pensoms and I don't think that he really touches on this topic,not that it would change what I do as it works for me. The rest of the books on Rollers are nothing but reading material but with little substance.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Sep 01, 2004 4:11 PM
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Slobberknocker
9 posts
Sep 01, 2004
4:08 PM
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Scott,
Good call, bud!! I have found the only truly reliable teacher is experience. Go to other people's lofts and watch and learn. It's like they say about newspapers, don't believe everything you read. What works for the guy writing the book may prove to be disaterous for you. Just my thoughts.
Bob McGuan
www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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redneckhippie15
1 post
Sep 01, 2004
4:18 PM
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All of my birds are about four months old and this is my first kit,if you can call six birds a kit,but I feel I have been relatively successful.They are all rolling some stiff and some deep but they get a bit better every day
I have trained them to trap from day one. I feel this is one of the most important aspects of raising rollers or homers. when you go thru the door of your house you know your home.
I have a small cage on the front of the loft so they can get some sun but I make them always trap to feed, so it is natural now.
I feed a 16% blend corn wheat and milo. I feed a tablespoon per bird and a couple of extra scoops cuz they`re growing. there are a few kernels left a couple of hours after thay trap.I feel this is about right. I check their condition occasionally to make sure they are eating well. Don`t be afraid to catch a bird and feel of his crop,breast and back for muscle tone.
My birds are flying well and still learning the ropes. They are beginning to respond to my whistle.I wear a yellow cap whenever I am working with them,so they know it is the one who feeds and cleans them. I use this for a flag and so far it seems to be working. Just do what feels good for your birds and monitor them closely. As my birds progress, I`ll post more.
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redneckhippie*blue dot lofts*
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jr
Guest
Sep 01, 2004
5:11 PM
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Wow Scott, according to your way of thinking it must be a waste of money for newcomers to become members of the NBRC. Isn't the bulletin full of articles from competition flyers, with their input on competition, breeding, problems, helpful info, health, etc...? I'm just trying to steer someone toward membership in the club so he has access to all the same tools as everyone else. In case you didn't understand my reply, I mentioned books and magazines for the 'BASIC' information as well as this bulletin board and visiting other flyers so the newcomer can get the fully rounded roller experience. With all due respect, I doubt that you are an expert on every subject and your experience is only limited to your family. But with your "I'm 100% correct on every issue" attitude, you're bound to steer a few new guys into your small corner. I'm saying get all the info you can from every availlable source, not just from the same 5 guys that post on this board. Information is king.
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Bluesman
44 posts
Sep 01, 2004
5:23 PM
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JR.Scott does have a way of ruffling feathers but when you get to know him he is a Great Fellow.David S.
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jr
Guest
Sep 01, 2004
5:32 PM
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I have read several of his posts and know that he is a 100% dedicated fancier, which I respect. But I didn't say 'books only' as his reply seems to imply, just as I don't think that this 'message board only' can supply all information to everybody. Individually they are great tools, but there's room for more than one tool in a tool box. "Get the whole set of tools"
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Mother lode lofts
162 posts
Sep 01, 2004
5:46 PM
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Obviously I didn't understand your reply JR as the only thing it implied was that the new guys go to other sources, other than here. But yes the way your "last" post was written I agree.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Sep 01, 2004 5:48 PM
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Guest
Guest
Sep 01, 2004
7:10 PM
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If you notice, the NBRC bulletin is full of discussion threads from other lists! Not enough people are comfortable to sit down and write an article or they are really busy to put their thoughts down. The guys who post right now have alot of experience and the internet is a great way to have on going discussions without being afraid of ridicule or being ignored like it can be at some shows and stuff. Someday, even a new beginner will be experienced and feel confident in his ability and will want to share it. Some guys are passionate about how they spend their time and the roller world should be greatful that some are so generaous with their time and opinions and what they know and learned. Thanks for the help guys!
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Dry Creek lofts
49 posts
Sep 02, 2004
5:22 AM
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This is to address what JR. had to say about this site and Books and Mags on the NBRC site.
I did not start this challenge to start a debate about where to get information as there are many Books and things to read but that is not the same as talking to flyers that are doing it first hand at the time not twenty years later.
As for the NBRC site it is a club that we all need to belong to but the board in the NBRC message board is so
logged down pop-ups that I dont use it as much as this one, not that the information is any better here or there.
It is always good to get all the information that you can where ever you can and that means read books, papers
,lists and whatever.
As a new flyer to the sport of rollers I want to thank all on this and other boards for the information that they are
good enough to share with new guys on the block.
As for the anons with there snide comments and quick to respond with something that has nothing to add, you
should read some of the treads that someone that really knows what they are talking about have to say and keep your snid comments to your self.
This is a great site and (most) and I repeat most here are good people to talk to, about what you want to find out at this time and date not years in the past as what it takes now is so differant than back then and this is fact.
Thanks again and keep them flying
Chuck
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Dry Creek lofts
50 posts
Sep 02, 2004
6:56 AM
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Kevin,
As to your first post about what strait wheat dose to your family and what it dose to jacanetts this is what I am talking about, just let us know what the different grains do to your family not what they do to other family’s.
If everyone dose the same on different subjects then we would have a better understanding of what it takes to make our birds do the things we want them to do and why. Hopefully we can do this with each phase of raising training and flying rollers.
Keep them flying
Chuck
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Mother lode lofts
165 posts
Sep 02, 2004
7:17 AM
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Chuck,send me an email with your ph no. I would like to talk with you
Scott
motherlodelofts@netzero.com
P.S. yes various grains act as tools. and knowing what they do can and do bring out the potenial in a kit of birds. I'm just beginning to think that it isn't worth going into here.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Sep 02, 2004 7:47 AM
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K.Naylor
16 posts
Sep 02, 2004
9:06 AM
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I agree with Scott about the books. The best way to learn is by asking questions on sites like tis one. then guys that fly now can give you input. I noticed that alot of books that are out there were written by guys that got out of birds shortly after the book was published. Also I am not sure if they even flew when they did have the birds.
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Dry Creek lofts
51 posts
Sep 02, 2004
11:24 AM
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Scott,
I think that if the topic is a ingeneral topic that it will benifit all who are just starting out, I know that there are some aspects of feeding and such that are only for one family but if a new person has as much information to start with it would make the task a little easyer.
It is real easy to say that you should feed milo or milo-wheat but what I was reffering to was in your or anyother persons birds what dose a particular grain do to your or anyother persons birds when fead that grain.
Scott I will call you tonite when I get home.
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Dry Creek lofts
52 posts
Sep 09, 2004
6:57 AM
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Hello all,
well here is a good lesson learned almost the hard way I was trying a new feed seed with my birds and I have a little hen that was spinning 20 to 30 feet tight and fast .
About two weeks ago I started feeding my kit birds some parakeet seed as a treat and it almost cost me that hen.
She kept getting deeper and deeper untill saterday and she rolled down from about 400 feet and as luck would have it she lit in some deep grass and dident get hert but I learned that the seed was to hot for her.
now I have her locked down and I am feeding her back up.
keep them flying
Chuck
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Mother lode lofts
176 posts
Sep 09, 2004
10:33 AM
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Chuck I have to be very careful with oil seeds exspecially with old birds that are in a little of Too good condition, a table spoon of it for 20 birds goes a long way. Seeds such as that can cause you to loose a kit real quick if not carefull!!!! It is the "speed" of the pigeon world and too much of it also makes them eratic. If you want to give them treats give them Salflour. They love it and it's good for them and doesnt seem to have nearly the effect as the small oil seeds. Just my opinion of coarse.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Sep 09, 2004 10:34 AM
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Anonymous
Guest
Sep 10, 2004
9:17 AM
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Chuck, it may be not feed this is perfect example of roll down. It is worth to wait atleast 12 to 18 months to see if the good roller is not actuall cull...it is being happened to me that one of the good birds rolling with style deep and fast but if continue to fly for 18 months turn in to roll down(cull). You will see that if you feed light gains like milo and barley.
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Bryan
Guest
Sep 10, 2004
10:50 AM
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Hey all im bryan i\and i have been raising purebred FLYING Pensom rollers for about three years know, i was recently at a show adn a man asked me how much i wanted for my whole stud of birds and i said i didnt know so he made me an offer but i kida think he was stiffing me on the price wut would you say isa good price fora stud of 150 purebred flying rollers.Ill be back on here in a week to see wut you all think.
p.s i am 16 years old
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K.Naylor
24 posts
Sep 10, 2004
1:30 PM
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It depends on how good they are. I have seen some "purebred Pensoms" that aren't worth 50 cents. If you have worked with them for a while and they are good and mean something to you, they should be priceless.
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JUrbon
9 posts
Oct 02, 2004
10:33 PM
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You know Chuck I have to say that I haven't really noticed a big difference in most grains. I have however noticed over the years that I have to control the pop corn intake or my birds head for the stratasphear.I change the milo and wheat intake at different times of the year and I also change the quantities during the different seasons other wise my birds get real tempermental as far as staying in the air or staying in the air to long. As far as the feed effecting the quality I believe that if I keep them on wheat or milo to long than they go to hell in a hand basket so I tend to stick with the mixed feed for the most part without popcorn. I do however mix it up periodically with wheat but I would never put them on canary feed or any other wild bird feed as I believe it is just to hot and might cause them to ba a bit unstable. Just my thoughts though, Joe Urbon
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