polarbear
129 posts
Jul 18, 2010
8:45 PM
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I have read a few articles about color balancing matings. How many people here practice this for there family of birds? And is there any specific reasons for doing so?
I am just trying to get a better understanding on the color balancing matings and wonder if there is any reason to do so, or if it is just another tool to work with.
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wannaroll
217 posts
Jul 18, 2010
9:32 PM
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Hey Polarbear, I think the correct term for what your looking for is "feather balance" not color balance. Recessive red is a softer feather. Some flyers like their birds to carry this. Although they don't always show the red they are still carrying it. The softer feather balance can help your birds to lessen their ability to resist the roll. I'm sure you will get lots of opinions on this subject. Good luck with your birds and enjoy them.
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Dave - Hesperia, CA.
(San Bernardino Mountain Spinners)
Last Edited by on Jul 18, 2010 9:34 PM
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donnie james
1100 posts
Jul 24, 2010
2:01 AM
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hay polabear,
they tell me that the red check and blue check is hard feather and the rest of the colors are soft feathers i hope this will help you out
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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James Herring
30 posts
Jul 24, 2010
7:58 AM
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1.Velocity
2.Depth
3.Frequency= one good roll per minute
4 kitting ability
5.Control= the ablility to change the depth of roll or, not roll at all when landing.
Purple,Pink,green or polka-dot, if the bird has the above ablilities, I could care less what color it is.
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F-5 Roller lofts.
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2010 8:00 AM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
680 posts
Jul 24, 2010
11:48 AM
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Polar
Color balancing form what I have read deals with feather type as spoken of above. Also some families seem to have color and a physical trait being related. Rec Red has been used as an example. Some families or developers of those families use Rec Red to weaken or loosen up the family giving more frequency. Some believe that Blues are strong, less frequent and should not be bred together. Grizzle, pied, white flights and other color factors are thought to do the same as rec red.
These factors are family, and breeder specific. I have to admit that my birds possessing grizzle are more frequent. However best velocity birds, and depth have come from 2 blue t checks. As you observe your family of birds look for these factors, and see how to use them. If you need more frequency that play with rec red, grizzle etc, and see what happens. If you need them to tighten up and spin better breed blue to blue.
Instead of thinking of color balancing I think that a Loft manager should think about trait management. If certain traits follow color then use the color to help ID the trait. Bit is the trait the birds possess that you should be using to improve your stud.
As an example I have some Billings family of birds. They can be really good. However the biggest problem I have with them is frequency. I bred a Starley bird last year that has a lot of frequency but, lacks the depth I get from the Billings birds. I am using this Starley on a Billings Hen that gave me the deepest bird I have had. Hopefully I get a bird or two that end up in the middle. Which would be a bird that is better than once a minute, and about 30 feet. Both birds are excellent spinners, but one has a trait that the other lacks.
The Starley is a Tort, and The Billings is a T check. Like expressed earlier, not sure if I am color balancing, or trying to balance traits, and it just happens that the traits sometimes follow certain colors or factors.
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RT Williams
Brink of Rolling Loft
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birdman
832 posts
Jul 24, 2010
11:54 AM
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Guys,
It's the bird's character that's important, and not the color.
Russ
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polarbear
131 posts
Jul 24, 2010
3:17 PM
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RT, your post is a good example of what i was curious about and trying to learn more about. This year my best birds are coming from my blues in checks, bars,and with white flights and badges in those colors. The blues have good depth, but not as frequent, once every 1.5 to 2 minutes.
With that said, all my blues i bred last year had at least 1 parent that was either rec. red, red check or red bar, that was mated to a blue. My reds this year have the frequency, but depth wise they are around 10 foot.
I have been able to with the help of my book keeping trace my best birds performance back to 2 hens and 1 cock, and possibly 1 more cock bird. Time will tell on his offspring.
So my plan next year is to focus on the 1.5 to 2 pairs that have bred my better birds and use the rest as feeders or backups.
Again rt your post is what i was trying get out of others, thanks for the replies.
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Sammy W
21 posts
Jul 24, 2010
7:02 PM
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RT, I really like your post and found it to be very informative.I will try to write this information down for future refference.
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fhtfire
2575 posts
Jul 28, 2010
8:33 PM
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Sammy,
I feel color balancing is something that may or may not be done on a loft by loft basis. Basically...what happens in one loft may not happen in others. I have found over the years that many either hear something and make it the law of the land or a couple lofts find something to be true and that makes it the law of the land.
To be honest...I have never found a benefit to color balancing anything. James pretty much said it...follow the traits not the color. If you can have a bird that meets the five traits and then can produce it...that is what breeding is about....as far as color balancing...I really dont see a benefit.
I have bred grizzle to grizzle...Red to Blue...and on and on...and my % are about the same across the board....I have not found that Blues are stiff and reds are active....anyway....I just cant wrap my arms around color balancing.
Now...I do tend to have certain colors in my loft be a little bit more active..or deeper etc..but that is just in my loft....the same birds could produce different in another loft....selection and genetics make the bird do what it does...not the color.
I found the hardest thing about the hobby is working your way through the wives tales and B.S.....I ruffled alot of feathers so to speak when I started to find that alot of what had been said to me or that I read was not true.....and then when I would ask..."Who said that this worked and when" and what proof....anyway.....my advice is....
To try it for yourself and if something works...run with it...if it does not...dont keep banging your head against the wall.....the definition of insanity...is dooing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.....LOL
Lots of theories I have found are usually loft specific.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Jul 28, 2010 8:35 PM
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old guy
56 posts
Jul 29, 2010
8:04 PM
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Here are some thoughts relating to Paul's post, which I happen to believe is right on the money.
I have been hearing about a supposed connection between color and modifiers, with performance in rollers. Many times these connections are quallified by “at least in my loft.”
I contend that all traits in pigeons must be inherited exactly the same in all lofts. It occurs to me that there are some easy scientific ways to test some of these relationships. A good place to begin looking for a connection between performance and color is to look at the sex linked characteristic; red/blue color.
Red or blue color is only carried on the X chromosome in pigeons. A red hen (XY) carries
the gene for red color on her X chromosome but no color gene on her Y chromosome. A cock (XX) carries genes for color on both of his X chromosomes. A blue cock carries a blue gene on each X. To test if the gene for performance is linked to the color gene, the following crosses should be made.
1. Cross a top spinning red hen to an average or poor performing blue cock that has good performing type. (All red offspring will be cocks and if the hypothesis is correct, will carry the red hen’s good rolling genes).
2. Cross these red cocks to average or poor performing blue hens that have good performing type. (Half of the hens produced will be red and carry the original hens color and performance genes. The other half of the hens produced will have the color and performance genes of the average or poor performing blue parents.
3. Fly all these red and blue hens and make good objective notes on their performance; maybe using a 1 to 5 scale. If color and performance are linked in any way, more of the red hens should be good spinners than the blue hens.
I also hear that grizzle produces hot pigeons, but does anyone actually test this belief or just assume it is true. This is so easy to test. Cross a good grizzle with a good blue or red, either a check or bar. You should get about half grizzle young and half check or bar young. Objectively rate all theese offspring on a 1 to 5 scale and record the results. I think equal numbers of each will be good stable birds and equal numbers will be hot or rolldowns. You could also cross two dark grizzles together and test if a double dose of grizzle (light or white grizzles) spin deeper or hotter than thier blue or dark grizzle siblings.
When Gregor Mendel discovered the laws of genetics, the first thing he realized is that you have to produce lots of offspring from one or many identical matings to get a true picture of the results. If you flip a coin a few times you can get almost all heads or almost all tails but if you flip many times, soon the results will reach the true 50/50 ratio you expect. If you test for a trait in pigeons don’t reach a conclusion based on a couple of young but know that you have to raise quite a few to see the true results.
I am skeptical that color or modifiers affect the quality of spin in rollers. If you beleive they do, don’t just accept it is fact because you believe it, but test your beliefs scientificly and post your results. I love being proven wrong.
Wayne
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JMUrbon
1070 posts
Jul 29, 2010
8:13 PM
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No truer words could have been spoken Paul. Far too often one mans secret recipe becomes gospel. I will use for example the Yo Yo feed system of Monty's. The fact of the matter is that Monty new his birds and he was an incredible manager. His system has not worked nearly as well for others. Not to say some havent had fair to good results with it but nothing to compare to Monty. Find what works for your birds and your management style and milk it for all it is worth. Dont try to find the fast track because the fact is unless you are willing to put in the time your birds will never be their best. Time is what they need not somebodies special elixer or feed remedy.
I kinda got a bit away from the original post but I feel the same about color balancing. It is a tool that some use and some dont. I havent seen any better birds come from sombody that does use it. Jst my views however. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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wishiwon2
343 posts
Jul 30, 2010
6:23 PM
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Well Ill throw my opinion in here. It is about character more than feather quality. I do believe some character strengths or flaws are linked to some colors and modifiers. But becasue character is such an intangible attribute is is difficult to test for in a single trial as suggested by Wayne. The results will be more readily observable over extended periods of time and with multiple repetitions or large sample sizes. Another thing about measuring strength of character, is that is affected by environmental inputs; specifically how the birds are managed. Birds with a softer character will wash out under the hands of a strict-harsh manager whereas as the same class of charactered bird would thrive managed by a generous, soft handed manager.
I define character in part as the birds ability/desire to fly and perform near its potential under stessful circumstances. Things like does it always go directly back to the kit? Does it ever land early? Did it fly and kit well as a squeaker? If it is mated up in the kit box, how does that affect its performance? If I dont feed for a day does it want to fly or not? If its hot, humid, windy how does it fly/perform? Can it tolerate extreme cold and maintain its self? Can it execute deep rolls and keep its wits about it? Does it tire easily? These are the kinds of things I consider when I am talking about character.
It has been my observation that spread, grizzle and rec red all serve to soften character. In the order listed least effect to greatest. Compounding in combination with one another. Ex: A lavender grizzle beneath rec red would likely be the weakest of characters in my loft. Wild type blue being the strongest expression of character. I would add that birds of any color come in varying strengths of character, including blue. The differences may only be in generalized measure across the breed, and relative one color or factor to the next. Some softening of character is needed to reduce the resistance to the rolling impulse (which also varies in strength).
I use color balancing very broadly in my breeding program. By broad I mean I dont use it as an cookbook adding colors as though they were ingredients. I consider the attributes of a stock bird and ask what does it need to compliment it? Then I choose a few potential mates. As I narrow the choices, if 2 birds compliment one mate equally well, I use color as a tie breaker to help make my decision. I also think of color as a guard, when pairing together I ask myself, even though these 2 individuals compliment one another well, are the traits associated with their color going to be accentuated by its doubling effect in this mating in a positive or negative way?
I dont have all the answers to the questions I ask myself. Much of what I do is still an experiment. I just wanted to share some of what goes into my thoughts in pairing up birds and color is one of them. Majority of the time, color has little influence on my choices. I try to be aware of trends, not specific examples.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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Leo
Member
155 posts
Jul 31, 2010
8:49 AM
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To simplify the color question,DO THIS..breed black to black,to black chk,to dark chk.etc and always dark to dark, and your birds become "Seldom"and will eventually QUIT ROLLING,and almost no performance at all, so color balancing is telling you to put some color in your matings...LEO
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JMUrbon
1071 posts
Jul 31, 2010
4:12 PM
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I would have to disagree with you on this Leo. There is no proof only opinions on the darks to darks going seldom. I have seen some great dark check families that had plenty of frequency. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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fhtfire
2576 posts
Jul 31, 2010
4:45 PM
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I am with you Joe! I too have seen many blue check families that have plenty of roll.
Paul
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Scott
3120 posts
Jul 31, 2010
10:48 PM
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95 0/0 of my stock is blue based..mainly dark checkers carrying smoky or dirty.
like mentioned it evolves around charactor.. and charactor tends to piggy back particular colors and factors depending on the family.. even within my own blue based family I will color balance by going smokey to the dirty .. the dirty factor being the strong side of the family.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Sound Rollers
367 posts
Aug 01, 2010
5:23 AM
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Breed hard feather to soft feather.
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Leo
Member
156 posts
Aug 01, 2010
8:32 AM
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Black,Black cks, Not blue cks or a one time mating, just continue these matings,and those of you that have good rollers will begin to see a seldom performance begin to take place, There is proof also, Pensom has said it many times,It is mentioned in Tom Hatchers latest book,I bred 7 straight times this way,so I need no proof...Good post Scott, your birds are Blue based and your doing fine with them...Leo
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polarbear
133 posts
Aug 01, 2010
12:10 PM
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Guys thanks for the replies, there is alot of good info listed.
Breeding best to best regardless of color to me is the way to go. I was just wondering what color in your family were the dominate color that produced a higher percentage of good kit birds, if indeed there was a certain color.
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katyroller
738 posts
Aug 02, 2010
8:14 PM
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I do color balancing to some extent in my breeding program and my decision is based on the performance of my family. I have found that the reds in my family tend to come into the roll early and are a little hot. The blacks and blues, develop slower and tend to be a little strong willed. My hope is that by mating red birds to blues or blacks, I will end up with birds somewhere in between. I have more performance problems from my reds but they are the most active.
Tracey
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Leo
Member
158 posts
Aug 03, 2010
8:13 AM
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Tracey, I am glad you are beginning to see a slight difference in the birds,,,the well known O.D. Harris says the same words about blacks,Pensom,said it,Hatcher said it, I prooved it to myself,,,,And I neverstop educating myself,After 60 yrs and my Dad 30 yrs before me,so the 90 yrs combined I learned a little,,,,,,there is one color that always makes things work,,,,but I am wasting my time trying to help some that are set in their ways,,so Ill shut up..!
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pat66
511 posts
Aug 03, 2010
8:32 AM
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Leo, always interested in what you have to say! spread the knowledge!my pensoms and hatchers are all colors and are color balanced according to performance, also Leo the 266 birds are light and dark birds! you seen the peds
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ECRA
Last Edited by on Aug 03, 2010 8:34 AM
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Leo
Member
159 posts
Aug 03, 2010
12:44 PM
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HI Pat, Just talked to Hatch and he was just informed that he had won another fly,I think thats three entrys and three wins in a row, Those birds are Liquid Smoke..!!How fortunate you & I are, to have them in our posession also,..! Regards, Leo
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pat66
512 posts
Aug 03, 2010
3:34 PM
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Leo, tell Hatch I said congrats and you know where to get some more smoke!
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ECRA
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