Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1917 posts
Jul 14, 2010
2:36 PM
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In one breeding season, one pair have six young birds, three cocks and three hens. Assuming that all of the birds are exactly equal in all aspects. I know this is not possible but for the sake of the question, assume this to be true. Also assume they come from very good stock, let's just say, they have the goods!
Now, as pairs they are given to three knowledgeable breeders, knowledgeable but different. Each breeder starts with this brother-sister pairing but take seperate paths after that. One line/inbreeds adhering strictly to the tree. Another breeds best to best with no regard for relationship whatever. The last, open lofts his birds allowing the birds to make their own choosing.
Now the question, if you can not guess. After , say three breeding seasons what would be the outcome? Who, if any would have the best birds? This is about breeding not management so also make one last assumption, management is equal in all three lofts. :)
Yes, but it's my question!
Take care
Thom
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
900 posts
Jul 14, 2010
2:51 PM
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Thom...Taught strictly Bill Pensom way, I would go best to best. (-: JDA
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CVRC
518 posts
Jul 14, 2010
3:16 PM
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i know people believe best to best is best, but my question is don't the mates have to compliment each other?? and if they have the goods, why would you not want line breed or what ever to make the gene pool tighter? i am new to this game and want to learn as much as i can JMO
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Cristian Castro
C-M-E Loft
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1918 posts
Jul 14, 2010
3:33 PM
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Amendment: CVRC, Joe, I have my own agenda and I will (although most already know in what camp I sleep) tell. I want to hear the reasoning behind the various answers so I will wait. Please don't just take a position, defend it! :)
Take care my friends
Thom
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rookie from ct
GOLD MEMBER
319 posts
Jul 14, 2010
3:50 PM
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Thom don't you have a soup kitchen in your area that needs volunteers you have too much time on your hands. Breed them all open loft and fly them open loft, lock them down and cut the feed and watch out when you fly next.,Dennis
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CVRC
520 posts
Jul 14, 2010
3:53 PM
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i have not stated my position thom. i simply asked two other questions that hit me when i read your post.. i was just wondering if two birds have to compliment each other in order to breed them...and wouldnt one want to make the gene pool tighter by breeding strictly and closely? i believe best to best is the way to go but it is like everything else not 100% it just makes the odds of getting better birds higher. but there are always exceptions
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Cristian Castro
C-M-E Loft
Last Edited by on Jul 14, 2010 3:54 PM
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rookie from ct
GOLD MEMBER
320 posts
Jul 14, 2010
3:57 PM
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Cristian if they are in the same family I would go with best to best even if they are nest mates. Dennis
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CVRC
522 posts
Jul 14, 2010
4:02 PM
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i agree
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Cristian Castro
C-M-E Loft
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1919 posts
Jul 14, 2010
5:08 PM
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Cristian, I am looking for a learning experience. I know what I think, I want to know what you and everyone else thinks. :) I'm not so entrenched in stone that I can not learn or change my mind. I think the point of this board is a question not asked and unanswered.
Thom
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donnie james
1071 posts
Jul 14, 2010
5:12 PM
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hay thom,
i always put the best to best and last year i open loft and got some good spinners and a few of them i think 3 pairs was already mated up and the other 4 pairs mated their self's i guess i got lucky ..........
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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CVRC
524 posts
Jul 14, 2010
5:37 PM
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after some thought on my question this is what i came up with...
every one has breeding standards and the standards to which they believe that a roller should look and feel... so i guess for me, i need my pairs to compliment each other. i like small to medium sized birds. i cant get those types of birds by breeding from huge birds. so the birds have to compliment what u are searching for and what u like...
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Cristian Castro
C-M-E Loft
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
674 posts
Jul 14, 2010
5:38 PM
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One question, I think it is important, do the breeders choosen have other pigeons to throw into the mix?
Now the question, if you can not guess. After , say three breeding seasons what would be the outcome?
Also are the young flown out and kept in a seperate kit box for this procedure?
This only applies to the line breeder and the open loft breeder.
Who, if any would have the best birds?
If the only pigeons in question are identical in genetic make up then the guy using the best birds should have the best birds. But since the genetics are equal in all three lofts, to improve over the other two a genetic mutation would have to occur, or the combination which are many form the pairings would have to line up making a superior bird to the parents. The guy flying and finding this superior bird is the only one that will improve his birds.
The line breeder was stumped which bird to use as soon as the F1 were hatched. All the young birds are the same, have the same parents, so what does he use to determine which birds to use in the loft the following year? My guess would be the one that is spinning the best, or the prettiest. Either way he ends up with the best birds for him, using the other factors. If his decision is performance based then equal to the best to best guy. Otherwise he is bald trying to figure out which pedigree is the best, when they are alike.
The open loft guy, if born lucky, may have the best. Simply because the most athletic and dominate birds will probably pair. This may be a pain to manage, but may give you some athletic birds. Way too much luck involved. This will also lead to “Wild type” which is commie like, so in 6 generation his birds will be bars, which do not roll, LOL.
When we artificially select the genetics that are passed on we manipulate how the birds evolve in our own lofts. Best to best should manipulate the gene pool to what works best for the breeder, but not necessarily the best for everyone else.
The last thing and probably the most important, is the guy breeding best to best, is the one that actually knows what the birds are doing on an athletic level. The rest are too concerned about other things to worry about performance. Therefore their birds will genetically migrate to what they put the most emphasis on.
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RT Williams
Brink of Rolling Loft
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1920 posts
Jul 14, 2010
5:49 PM
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Cristian, Your opening is the point of my post, "After some thought"
R.T. As everyone knows I'm a line breeder but I also think the only way to advance is to breed best to best within the line. I start with father to daughter (the best daughter that has what I want and need from the air and in the loft) then mother/son with the same requirements. The brother/sister start was a quandary from the beginning as I do not have much luck or even like that pairing. The only way to check my reality is to ask what others think. I'm a self confessed mule head but I'm not so old I can not learn. So, I ask.
R.T., I appreciate the time and thought you placed in you response.
Thank you my friends
Thom
Last Edited by on Jul 14, 2010 6:42 PM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1921 posts
Jul 14, 2010
5:54 PM
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Donny, I'll take luck anytime, some got it, some don't! Unfortunately, I don't! :) So, I micro-manage, think tooo much, then change my mind! :)
Take care my little buddy
Thom
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rookie from ct
GOLD MEMBER
321 posts
Jul 14, 2010
6:18 PM
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Thom box those 6 birds up and send them east and I will keep you posted on how they progress.I will keep good records on if they tail sit or roll and how deep if they tree sit or trap and all the other little bits I jot down in my notes. I will be watching the mail. Dennis
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1922 posts
Jul 14, 2010
6:38 PM
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Dennis, I wish I had those six birds. I would send you a pair! I would send another pair to my brother and keep the last pair for ME!
Take care my friend
Thom
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1923 posts
Jul 14, 2010
6:45 PM
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Joe, I'm a line/in-breeder but you have a point. I'm not sure I totally agree but I'm sure I do not disagree.
Take care my friend
Thom
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Steve S.
109 posts
Jul 14, 2010
7:02 PM
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Hey Thom,
After 3 years best to best would have the best outcome.
Open loft is a gamble.
Line/inbreeding has to be proven out with no chance of mateing the best flown out birds together.
Steve
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James Herring
14 posts
Jul 14, 2010
7:22 PM
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Thom, as Monty Nieble once said, people make breeding Rollers more complicated than it needs to be. No open loft breeding, too hit and miss. Take spinner ( A ) thats rolls right and kits good, and mate it to spinner ( B ) that rolls right and kits good, try to match conformation. Father/Daughter. Mother/son. Brother/sister. KEEP IT SIMPLE, dont over analyze.
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5 Cedars Roller Lofts
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
676 posts
Jul 14, 2010
8:18 PM
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Thom
you are welcome for the response. I hope it helps, or that I got lucky and said something informative.
I do not think that thier is any short cuts. If you get a couple good birds, you have to milk (breed them) for all that they are worth.
Many will say polygammy breed, line breed, or whatever. I agree with the above two if you have the bird(s) to do it with. But if you plan to make a major change in 3 generations you are dreaming.
On another note. I have wondered if a guy picked a really good Cock bird from a kit. and then Picked 3 hens that were also as good but all from different families. Polygammy breed these four birds, and pick the best 3 or 4 pairds from the offspring. from thier get rid of the originals.
With 4 pair that you flew and know work for you, that were all half brother and sister, how good would the offspring be that followed from these 4 pair. I wonder if the percentages would be good or not.
just a thought to add to your discussion.
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RT Williams
Brink of Rolling Loft
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donnie james
1073 posts
Jul 14, 2010
8:23 PM
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hay thom,
i'm like you have luck on my side and i'll take luck any time ..................
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1924 posts
Jul 15, 2010
4:16 AM
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Hey Steve, I don't understand why you think best to best is impossible within a line/inbreeding program. I bred from four pair of birds this year, with the aid of fosters. All were chosen for performance and for their loft demeanor. I forced myself to resist the temptation to allow any of my fosters to raise their own. Not that they were bad but the four pair are the best, "I have". Next years breeders will be chosen in the same manner. With the thought of maintaining or improving on the original pairing.
Take care my friend
Thom
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
692 posts
Jul 15, 2010
4:43 AM
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Thom,
Assuming that only offspring from the original pair and descendants are used all three breeders will be practicing line breeding in a manner of speaking. No out crosses means the family is kept tight. Given this assumption the guy who breeds best to best within this family has the highest probability of success but it is still a crap shoot. I practice line breeding/inbreeding based on what they do in the air. Familial relationship is secondary but the gene pool in my family is pretty well established after 30 years of breeding the same family.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Scott
3118 posts
Jul 15, 2010
7:03 AM
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What does best mean.. the best at six months? 12 months ? 18 months ?
Many of the best at 6 months won't be around at 18 months.. then what ?
Best to best yes.. but then you have to mate what mates are best .. and a few of the best will need to stay in the kitbox due to being on the verge of deteration mentally.. some will be great spinners but have to be babied to keep wt. on ..in other words there is stuff that you want eliminated from the gene pool.
Complicated ? no..just good old common sence
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4137 posts
Jul 15, 2010
9:09 AM
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"..just good old common sence" = easy? Hmmm...
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1925 posts
Jul 15, 2010
9:13 AM
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Scott, Starting out my best were that years birds. Now my best will be in the air a minimum of two years, hawk or no hawk. Would I try an outstanding young bird in the brood loft? YES, but I would not stake my breeding program around it. My best and the concept of "Best" has evolved and changed constantly. The birds are improving and I have the available potential stock birds to choose from. The point I want to make in line/inbreeding is that only by selection can I improve my core stock. I do not breed father/daughter or any two birds by their pedigree. I pick the very best birds I have from the air and in the blind as much as is possible. When you handle your birds as much as I do you can not help but know who is out of whom. :) Sure, I have my favorites but I try to not let that influence my decision on breeders. You are absolutely right in that until a bird makes the stock loft, it might not be around but we all have to start somewhere.
To All, I'm a contrary oldfart, mule headed and as stubborn as they come, more so then most. I have no intention of changing my breeding program as long as I see improvement. This board has been and will be a valuable source of information for me and I hope for you. I'm just stirring the pot trying to find a little meat! :)
Take care my friends
Thom
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4138 posts
Jul 15, 2010
9:30 AM
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Hey Thom, good topic and will elicit food for thought for many. You are on a good track just by being inquisitive and open to hearing from anyone with valid and logical approaches to breeding.
I would like to offer 1 concept that should always overshadow what we are doing when it comes to the birds, and that is remembering the aerial standard:
"Inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance".
The "BEST" is any bird or group of birds that gets you there. Good luck!
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1926 posts
Jul 15, 2010
10:23 AM
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Tony, Without exception, I advise newbies that are starting with Ruby's to stock the birds they get from you and fly out the young. I can say this with confidence because I know you have paid the price for them. After that it is on the individual and how they manage their birds. There is only one way. Please excuse my shouting but I want everyone to hear. No matter how you breed your birds, "FROM THE AIR IS THE ONLY WAY"! to pick your breeders. That concept is always first and last!
Take care my friend
Thom
Last Edited by on Jul 15, 2010 11:34 AM
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Steve S.
110 posts
Jul 15, 2010
12:37 PM
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Thom,
I never said its impossible to get best to best by line/inbreeding,
Just not enough time to use your senerio.
In that time period maybe your line bred are not as good as your inbred so mateing best flown out offspring is very difficult.
Your best to best mateings would result in a better outcome.
To keep a family of cocks and hens linebreeding takes time as you know, we are both oldschool starting back in the 50's.
I have seen it done every way it can be done, pretzel, line, inbred and best to best.
Bottom line is we have to purge the bad traits,to get the best results and it takes time.
With your example we have the better result with best to best and still not be where we would like to be given that much time.
Steve
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1927 posts
Jul 15, 2010
2:08 PM
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Hey steve, I see what you are saying. I thought you meant that best to best and line/in-breeding did not mix. That is a short time to see the results under the three year senerio. My bad, I need to read a little slower! :)
Take care my friend
Thom
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birdman
830 posts
Jul 15, 2010
3:48 PM
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Thom,
In the scenario you describe above I would say that the best birds will be found in the loft of the person who is able to zero in on the BEST PRODUCERS.
Best to best from an aerial performance doesn't mean diddly squat if the bird(s) don't carry the genetic pre-potency to move the line forward but it is a good starting point.
If it were me, After the best producers have been identified I would then mate them to my absolute best spinners in the hope of breeding birds that spin properly and that are capable of passing it on to future generations. (easier said than done...lol)
And by the way, I think you can throw out the inbreeding example since every bird in every scenario is already inbred from the original brother/sister mating...lol
Russ
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1930 posts
Jul 15, 2010
4:23 PM
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Hey Russ, I set the scenario up that way to see if anyone would catch that fact. I do not care for brother/sister matings. They simply do not work for me. I do however think that even in that scenario the line breeder would prevail over an open loft in due time. As Steve S. pointed out there would not be enough time for the program to bear fruit in three generations. I have little experience with breeding best to best without also line/in-breeding at the same time. I pick my breeders from the air and I hope (expect) them to at a minimum produce as good as they are (not every bird of course) and the rare bird that surpasses their abilities. In that manner a program will move forward. ( easier said then done)! :)
"If it were me, After the best producers have been identified I would then mate them to my absolute best spinners in the hope of breeding birds that spin properly and that are capable of passing it on to future generations. (easier said than done...lol)"
That is and has been my program from the very beginning. After I identified the best producers, I culled everything else and built my birds from one cock and two hens. Now I eliminated everything but the progeny from the cock and one hen. So my loft is based around two birds. I keep picking the very best and pairing them back to their fathers or mothers. By very best, I mean in the air and in the loft. now that I have an established well defined (from an already defined start) gene pool, I keep eliminating the bad and condensing the good.
Take care my friend
Thom
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155
1247 posts
Jul 15, 2010
4:36 PM
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good stuff in here
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~ Jose Jimenez Aka Evilloft ~
Compton ca ,Mesa Az
.Going all Higgins this Year.
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rookie from ct
GOLD MEMBER
322 posts
Jul 15, 2010
5:54 PM
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Thom after this post you better double lock and sleep with one eye open & with the 12 on your lap,you have the very best birdes. (LOL) Dennis do u need my mail
Last Edited by on Jul 15, 2010 6:17 PM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1931 posts
Jul 15, 2010
6:25 PM
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Dennis, I doubt you need my help but if you ever want to try a pair or two, they are yours. Not yet with the best, but I'm working on them! :)
Take care my friend
Thom
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Steve S.
111 posts
Jul 15, 2010
7:31 PM
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Thom,
Hope your line breeding gives you some good cocks on one side and the hens on the other.
In 96 Monty Neible brought me and Sam Gates some birds down to the Louieville young bird show.
He new we liked his blue bars and checks. He gifted us 3 pair each.
We went over to Carl Hardestys to watch his birds fly.
Me and Sam talked to them both about how they bred their birds and Monty said he had tightened his gene pool so tight he could put the cocks and hens together in a loft with good results as they were all closley related.
Note: he did bring the genes together tight.
I asked him how and he said he used line breeding of father/daughter and mother/son to form a hen and cock line and inbreeding of bro/sister and 1/2 bro/sisters
to bring out the same performance which gave him good breaks, but he also told us that the good traits as well as bad came out but they performed together and it weakened the roll resistance.
Carl used the same method but used alot of aunts and uncles.
Joe Roe as you know tightened it up with bro/sisters.
Sorry so long winded but my mind went back a few years.
Steve
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
677 posts
Jul 15, 2010
7:41 PM
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When do you get to tight? I can think if a few ways to get the birds a lke pretty quickly. Thom is doing one way by only using a few pairs, and breedeing back to the parents.
How do you know that yopu are to tight, or can you be?
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RT Williams
Brink of Rolling Loft
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1932 posts
Jul 16, 2010
10:33 AM
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Hey RT, Out of the possible millions of combinations of gene patterns our birds could have, I don't think it is possible to have them to tight. Even nest mates are different. I could breed for the rest of my life from my already condensed gene pool with no danger of causing deformities. If there are abnormalities within the strain breeding as close as I do could cause them to pop up. I'm in my forth generation of father/daughter pairings from my two bird start. I have selectively only kept the traits I want. Such as tameness, parentage skills, conformation (that I like) kitting, frequency, and of course the spin. I have not had any abnormalities. No birds with web feet, no crests, they all have two eyes and one head! :) The worst I have is the rare bird that is too hot, but they don't last because when they hit, it's their first and last time.
RT, you are thinking and that is part of the battle. Question everything, take nothing for granted. If you try a breeding experiment and it does not work out. Purge them and try again next year.
Take care my friend
Thom
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1933 posts
Jul 16, 2010
5:32 PM
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Hey Steve S. Thanks for the walk. I wish I had been in birds but that time was not good for me. We have all been through it in one way or another. I do understand and appreciate the lessens hard learned from the past. Each generation must make their own way, I guess.
In the mid seventy's I went to a show in Indiana, Gerald Smith graciously hosted members from the Portsmouth club at his home. His lovely wife made us feel as though we were family. He put up a kit of old birds, mixed sexes, that just knocked my socks off! I simply did not know what to think! Later that night, sleepless, I was sitting on his back porch remembering how his birds flew that day. Around 2am Mr smith joined me on the porch and in his quite voice began to explain how I could have a kit like that. That was my first introduction to line/in-breeding. I have never had a kit like that but I'm working on it! He also gifted me with a pair of Red Checks the next day. They produced some very good birds the next year. I gave them to Jim Bob Berry, Bill's son when I moved and could no longer keep my birds. I heard that he did very well with them but I never saw any of them in the air.
Take care my home town friend
Thom
Last Edited by on Jul 16, 2010 5:35 PM
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fhtfire
2566 posts
Jul 16, 2010
5:37 PM
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Thom,
Some things that occur with "inbred depression" is not always so obvious...like webbed feet...a third leg etc...those are the things that you can catch real quick and fix if you run a real tight gene pool.
The things that get you if you start to hit the brick wall in inbreeding are the not so obvious...and by the time most see there is a problem...it may be hard to recover...if you have good records you can go back and find the wrong path that was taken.
The things that I am talking about are:
Infertility- can be as subtle as cocks or hens not having as long a life span of breeding...meaning a cock may have issues at 6 years old instead of 12 years old...or it can be cocks having issues plugging eggs...more singles.
Egg issues- You can have eggs in hens being smaller....they dont breed as long and dry up...your % of fertile eggs go down...and you can have a gap in time from clutches being laid.
Immune issues- You may have birds start to get sick more often..not to the point of your whole loft croaking...but you start getting sickness.
Performance deterioration- Could be from genetic issues...like underdeveloped lungs...muscle fibers that may have issues....endurance...these things you cant see...some just blame poor selection for bad years....when they could be hitting a wall and not knowing it.
Anyway...lost of genetic issues CAN occur from breeding to tight.....this is for ANY breed that you inbreed.
Have you ever heard this before-
"man I have birds getting sick" never had a sickness in the last 10 years....could it be genetic?
" Man...I used to have cocks shooting fertile eggs up to 12 years old...now they are drying up at 8 years old"....could it be genetics?
" This last couple of years of breeding were not as good....not as many 2 hatch nests...could it be genetics?
Or...how about fliers that were on top for NUMEROUS years and then they just cant seem to get it together as easy as they used to...they often will say..."I need to re-evaluate my stock" or "I am just in a rut...rebuilding".....could it not be the selections made...but genetically the walls are closing in and it is easy to blame the obvious....like yourself...but it could be as easy as a bottleneck of genes...the bad genes are slowly showing the ugly head.
Just some food for thought
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Jul 16, 2010 5:40 PM
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fhtfire
2567 posts
Jul 16, 2010
5:50 PM
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Thom,
I have bred lots of animals over the years. Inbreeding is used but not as much as many think. Especially in recent years. In the past inbreeding was was DONE alot...but usually the inbreeders had a very short stints on top.
Inbreeding should be used to lock in a certain trait and then you move away from the inbreeding once you lock in the trait. Everytime you inbreed you magnify the good gene...but you are also magnifying the bad genes....sooner or later it WILL happen...and the bad genes start to pop up.
There is no timeline for inbred depression...it can happen quick or it can take years and years....but when it happens there is no turning back...you have to take 5 steps back and regroup.
Most keep themselves out of trouble with pure luck of pick as one would say. You may pick a bird that has just enough diversity in the genes that it opens the gene pool back up enough to keep you going. Those are the ones that usually have a tight stable but will have a bird or two that is not as tight in the breeding program...thos one or two birds in some lofts may be the filler birds for breeding..or not the top dogs so to speak...but those "inferior" one or two..may be the actual birds keeping the whole boat afloat.
Inbreeding is just that...a tool...if you use the tool to much...somtimes it does not work as good....use inbreeding with caution...always keep a clear mind and think outside the box....if things start popping up on a consistant basis over years....not months.....then really look at the worse case scenerio....it could be the genes.....the easiest way to test an issue that arises....is to breed some birds to your main group that may not be as closely related and see what happens...it only takes one good bird with a trial breeding to inject new life into your stock or as I like to say...add a little more flavor to the stew.
rock and ROLL
Paul
I am not saying inbreeding is bad....it is a tool..and I have used it in the past numerous times to lock in something that my stock was missing...but like anything else...you have to know when to say when...
Blindness is sometimes magnified with success.
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1934 posts
Jul 16, 2010
6:09 PM
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Thanks Paul, I may have over simplified. I understand what you are saying and realize that the day may come when I will need a in-cross. I have a seperate strain within my family and my loft. The first sign of regression instead of progression and I will use ether line to help the other. I know we look at line/in-breeding differently and I have respect for your view. You make some very valid points and I keep your advice in the back of my mind.
Be safe, my friend
Thom
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fhtfire
2568 posts
Jul 17, 2010
9:31 AM
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Thom,
No worries....and that is all you want to do is put it in the back of your mind...but keep it close enough that you will use it when needed....you will remember..you are an Plug (firefighter) and already have the brain trained to keep things in the back of your mind...just in case....LOL....man I have so many things in the back of my mind just in case shit happens or to prevent shit from happening...why did I promote to Captain...LOL!!
Keep um flying....and much respect old timer....and I will be safe...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1936 posts
Jul 17, 2010
11:35 AM
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Paul, Why,Captain? :) You overachieving boot! :) You could not do other wise!
Take care my friend, I sleep better knowing the next generation has some balls! No offence to all of the female firefighters, they are just as brave, they just don't have balls!
Thom
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fhtfire
2570 posts
Jul 17, 2010
12:44 PM
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Hey Thom,
One of our female firefighter...who does not have real balls but has balls when it comes to the job....anyway...her dad was a Captain for LA City for elevedy Billion Years...maybe you know him...Reno Trapletti....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1937 posts
Jul 17, 2010
12:58 PM
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Paul, I'm sorry to say, I do not but I'm sure I would be proud to make his acquittance. Traditionally,it's the sons that follow in their fathers footsteps but I've met and fought beside some very proficient ladies. Work under your command, she must make the grade and that young Sir is good enough. Sex has very little to do with heart, courage is within an individual. You know who you would place your back up against when nothing but a world of hurt is in you eyes. Trust in your partner and in your instincts, you will go home at the end of your shift.
Remember, there is no property worth your life. Never go so deep, you can not get "yourself" out!
Be safe my friend
Thom
Last Edited by on Jul 17, 2010 12:59 PM
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