bman
762 posts
Apr 29, 2010
7:35 AM
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-I would like to hear from the list if they feel outbirds is an inherited fault or one that is created by enviroment or physical influences, such as Bop's etc.
As far as I am concerned there are two kind of out birds.
One that just refuses to kit(cull)
And the second that kits 90% of the time but will occasinally
take that extra "lap" before returning to the kit. I also put the bird that rolls than trails the kit without making the effort to return right away in this second catergory.
Any thoughts?---------
Ron
Borderline lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2010 7:36 AM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1744 posts
Apr 29, 2010
10:51 AM
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Hey Ron, With my B.O.P. problem I would have to say that some is situational. I have one cock bird that will fly with the kit as long as they are up above the trees. As soon as the kit drops below tree height he drops like a rock and hides under the loft eve. He will obviously look for any trouble then run over to the trap and get in as quickly as possible. Now technically he is an out bird but logically, he is smarter then all the rest! :)When the kit gets hit above the trees he will zoom into the nearest tree and hide close to the trunk for hours but when he thinks it's safe he will drop, hide and then trap. So, my question for you is survival a breed able trait? :)
Take care my friend
Thom
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2010 10:52 AM
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bman
763 posts
Apr 29, 2010
11:25 AM
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Hey Thom,breedable? I would say yes to some extent,
(intelligence) if they survive the learning experience. What I was looking for is if there are some management techniques/mistakes that can create the "sometimes" out bird. For example,promoting a young bird to an older kit to soon. Or having an early developer flying with birds that are not rolling yet. I guess can they be man made is the question?
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Scott
3024 posts
Apr 29, 2010
12:03 PM
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They are all culls and have no heart.. never make excuses for them .. they will also make bums out of others.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2010 12:05 PM
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rollerpigeon1963
309 posts
Apr 29, 2010
12:54 PM
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ROn,
I believe its in the bird. It don't want to work or be in the kit. First thing you need to do is pull it and fly it with younger birds. If the problem continues then you need to deal with it. Now let me ask you a question. Lets say you had a couple of out birds during your fly. You know for a fact which ones they are. Now is there nest mates doing the same thing? Did it start with one out bird and he pulled another one out to do the same thing? do you keep flying thme? If you say yes because they are very good workers and have great style. So you keep flying them and it makes you loose the fly. I know all of this is a bunch of if's but it could happen LOL LOL. You have to cull hard or they will cut you short in the long run.
I have an out bird from time to time but I don't believe they were nestmates. But I do know you have to get a handle on it quick.
Best of luck bud!!! hope to see ya soon have to see if I still have unemployment!!!
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http://rollerpigeon1963.tripod.com/
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maxspin
383 posts
Apr 29, 2010
1:38 PM
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Ron,
I would say both.
This is why it is so important to keep good notes on your birds.
A late hatch that did not get enough fly time before I had to lock it down, and then is not kitting well. That is a management issue on me, not a problem with the breeders.
A bird that is hurt by a BOP and then will not kit gets a notation. I feel that it is still lacking heart and would never make my breeder loft. It would not in and of itself cause me to pull the parents.
I would never put a bird with kitting issues into the breeder loft no matter what I felt the reasons for poor kitting were. If I start to see a pattern of poor kitting from a bird or pair, they would at least get split up, and at worst get culled from the breeder loft.
Keith Maxwell
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155
1201 posts
Apr 29, 2010
2:13 PM
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culls!! i hate birds that dont kit i dont care how good of a roller he is, if he dont kit his gone .. but that just me..
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~ Jose Jimenez Aka Evilloft ~
Compton ca ,Mesa Az
.Going all Higgins this Year.
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
634 posts
Apr 29, 2010
2:49 PM
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I had a pair of nest mates this year, one was culled for being an out bird. The other is still flying.
Both were active and in the roll. The cull at about 10 minutes gave up, left the kit, and then would land early. When a second bird joined her in this, she left the loft.
The other bird never did it again after losing her friend. LOL
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RT Williams
Brink of Rolling Loft
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cv rollers
550 posts
Apr 29, 2010
3:08 PM
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i had the same problem,i moved them to a young kit some are kitting good the ones that were still out i culled and have not had that problem with them again..good luck
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Rick Flores
www.coachellavalleyrollers.net
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
805 posts
Apr 29, 2010
5:33 PM
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Thom...That is one smart pigeon.You have a very alert bird that when bop is around he bails to hide and waits to trap. I have had two of my Ruby,s dive under a bush and one that did what your cock did get deep into the nearest tree and wait for the danger to leave.Out birds, NO, Smart birds YES.JDA
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1745 posts
Apr 29, 2010
6:16 PM
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Joe, I agree young man. I'm not sure just how smart a pigeon could be but if this bird sees a Cooper, he is gone to cover. The cool part is he spins with style and kit's tight under clear skies. The ONLY time he tree sits is in "Clear and Present Danger" ! :) I also have birds that hide under bushes or behind logs until the coast is clear.
I wish clear skies for you my friend!
Thom
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
806 posts
Apr 29, 2010
6:27 PM
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Thom...Well the clear skies are maybe ??? This season I put up five hens three times and got chased two out of the three days,No hits but this could mean I have got a new neighbor like you last year. )-: JDA
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macsrollers
298 posts
Apr 29, 2010
11:51 PM
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If you fly competition an outbird, no matter how good it spins, is worthless and a cull. If you aren't competing and enjoy that bird as a spinner, then keep it. Since I am a competitor in this hobby a bird that even goes out any portion of a fly is a cull. But a bird that leaves the kit due to a predator attack is not an out bird, it is a bird trying to save it's life! I'll never penalize a bird for doing that. It is always nice to have a team that will regroup after a attack, but I can't fault a bird if it decides to head for earth rather then risk it's life! Enjoy your next fly! Don M Mac's Rollers
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1746 posts
Apr 30, 2010
3:51 AM
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Joe, I hope you don't have a B.O.P. set up on your loft, they are relentless after scoring. I saw a short video on using bright objects on the kit box/loft. The claim is that B.O.P. don't like shiny things. The gentleman in the video used an old C.D. tied to the kit box. He said that his birds do not pay it any attention but that the B.O.P. would not come near it. 50% of my attacks are Cooper Hawks and occur near the kit box when the birds are landing or when I have young birds on the box. I have not tried it yet but I will give it a try, if it saves even one bird it will be worth it.
Thom
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
807 posts
Apr 30, 2010
6:36 AM
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Thom...Best of luck this season against the sharks with wings.JDA
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bman
764 posts
Apr 30, 2010
8:43 AM
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The obvious conclusion;CULL
But I was wondering if could be caused by management
(me) lol.
Brian,we are flying 5/24 if you can make time.Be good to see you again.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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bman
765 posts
Apr 30, 2010
8:44 AM
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Hey Brian,those two are long gone.LOL
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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lew3015
114 posts
Apr 30, 2010
8:58 AM
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At What age or stage in a birds life would you consider it an outbird or is it still learning? Most young birds fly like bees going all different directions. which ones of them would be considered the outbird?
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Lew
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1747 posts
Apr 30, 2010
9:19 AM
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Hey Lew, How are you my friend? I hope all is well! :)
Everyone will have a different opinion so I'll add mine. I give a young bird slack and allow learning mistakes but when all of the other young birds in it's age or round are kitting and behaving themselves the party is over. If I really like the bird, I will demote it to the last chance kit but after that..... When I bring my holdover birds back out after lock down, they also get a little time to pick things up but not as much as a young bird. I think keeping the good birds is the order of the day. A bad bird eats just as much as a good bird.
Take care my friend
Thom
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