JC
11 posts
Mar 08, 2010
9:51 PM
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I don't know if the spelling is correct but does anyone know anything about these birds. I have some and I'm sure it's more me but they are all over the place when flying. I have some that go out of sight and some that fly where I can watch them. No deep rollers. Had a couple of rolldowns. I like the size and looks of the birds but the flying problem is driving me crazy.
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4196 posts
Mar 08, 2010
11:04 PM
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Their birds find the way into a lot of champion producing lofts. If you want to give them away I will take them off your hands(LOL)and even pay the freight.
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
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JMUrbon
954 posts
Mar 08, 2010
11:09 PM
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I have had biirds from Keiser in my loft 2 times over the years and both times they would sky out including while in the same kit as my birds. As for Borges birds I have not flown them and my only experience with them was with a young bird Joe gave me nearly 25 years ago and mr cooper made sure it wasnt around long enough to evaluate. As Nick put it though, There are lots of families in some of the top fliers in the country that have had tremendous sucess with them. A little harder to handle than some of the other lines out there but once you get a handle on it they could ba a very valuable asset to your loft. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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mirollers
11 posts
Mar 09, 2010
3:16 AM
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I had the good fortune to spend an afternoon with Chan Grover at Joe Borges' loft in 1992. Joe flew several kits for us and, candidly, they kitted very well, flew at a good height, and there were several outstanding individuals in both kits including birds that were as deep as they can go and still keep their speed and style. Frankly, they well represented one of the great old families of birds still out there. I never had the good fortune of seeing Kiser's birds in the air at his house, but a good friend bought a significant number of them in 1983...and he bred some great ones before BOP's discouraged him enough to force him out of the hobby. If you are having issues with those birds, with the caveat being that they are birds straight down from Howard McCully's loft with nothing else introduced to them AND have been bred by someone who understands true rolling pigeons, I would suggest a review of your feeding and flying practices. They are one of the great families still out there and directly out of Pensom's loft.
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Hammer_00
1 post
Mar 09, 2010
7:35 AM
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the borges and keiser are basically the same kind of
birds. Old family pensoms 514& clay hen blood. The
oulett brothers founded their family on keiser-borges
birds. Don has won the world cup twenty bird fall fly
and eleven bird nbrc fall flies. jason brown of utah
also does well in competion with these birds. This
family of birds needs to be flown hard and watch their
feed. Any trouble your having is probably a management problem and not the birds.
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JC
12 posts
Mar 09, 2010
8:14 AM
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Thanks for the encouraging info. I figured most or all of the problems I'm having is me. The person I got them from swears by them and seems to really know the birds. They are much harder to handle than the ones that I had many many years ago. I got those previous birds from Frank Lavin when he lived in Garden Grove Ca. His birds were bigger (as I remember) and much less hi strung. I'll keep working with these because if I can get them under control I'll figure i'm learning something. Any additional info will be helpfull. Thanks. JC
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Scott
2911 posts
Mar 09, 2010
9:04 AM
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JC .. my birds go back there many moons ago (via Ken Billings)
Kiser dropped in Curtis birds after the fact.. Joe Borges did not as I understand it. both live not far from me.. Joe B. is now out of rollers due to BOPs.
What you have to keep in mind is that a loft is dictated 100 0/0 on selection out of the gene pool.. it can be changed in a heart beat for good or bad.
As for my family and Kennys which still run very much hand in hand.. they kit within a couple of days off of the roof with rare excetion... as long as all are healthy and all are getting their share of feed I don't know what I could do to not make them kit at this stage.
High flying is a pain for me once mature but proper handling takes care of that as long as I don't have excess lift.. but they don't split up to do it.. if I had particular birds doing such and they are all the same age group I would cull them without hesitation along with the parents.
Keep in mind as long as ALL are on the same page as far as age and condition.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Hammer_00
4 posts
Mar 09, 2010
9:16 AM
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My family of birds are based on these brirds.if i had to try and fix your problm. I would lock up for a couple of days cut feed. then try and fly 2 or 3 times a day. split feed the birds half after firstfly other half afte last fly of day. do this for a week or 2. this shold get them under control.
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JC
13 posts
Mar 09, 2010
7:47 PM
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Hammer I'll give that a try. I read somewhere on this site (I think) that if I feed them 50% milo & 50% wheat that it will bring them down. Is this correct???
Flying twice a day probably will be a problem due to my work. Strange thing is that I have flown the cocks separate from the hens, same feed. The hens go "sky out" while the cocks stay at a reasonable height.
Scott. You mentioned Curtis birds, Is that Mike Curtis (I think in Nevada?) I'm going to have to concentrate more on the birds this year. Last year they did not kit well or roll. Most of my kit birds were 1yr or younger. I'm just learning and figured that the problem was me so I didn't want to get rid of birds because of something I'm doing wrong. JC
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macsrollers
287 posts
Mar 09, 2010
8:54 PM
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Like Scott stated, my birds from the Ouellettes are down out of Kisor and Borges mainly. I have very few that give me kitting problems. However these birds are not easy to fly and keep down once they mature. I have been flying them for 15 years now and started out as green as anyone could be in this hobby. While I have finally mastered flying them to some extent, they still can frustrate you- as any other rollers can as well. Tough birds for beginners. But the good ones out of these birds are second to none and will take your breath away when they spin. Now if I can just get near the level of Don Ouellette in flying them maybe I will do them justice in the air! Enjoy your next fly!
Don M. Mac's Rollers
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Bill C
508 posts
Mar 10, 2010
6:15 PM
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I have some birds directly from Kiser and Borges. Like Don M Mac's Rollers said they have some really awsome veloctiy in the good ones. Most of my friends have not seen the best ones as I pull them for stock even before a big fly. Once I get them in a good percentage I will risk flying them more often.
It is all about the feed and control with these birds. What works for me might not work for you. Joe Borges fed them hard red wheat in the kit box. Nothing else, but I find they sky out if fed wheat too long. I tend to feed much like Paul fullerton with pellets and mix often.
Keeping them in a fit conditon will add to them skying out. So I feed them up and bring them down and constantly do this with good results. I came in 11 place for the Fall fly with these birds and Chris Saybe came in 5th or something like that. He also flys Borges birds. Brent Timius also was our local top flyer W/C last year and he has had them for over 10 years now. I would call them Brents birds. We all live close to Borges, Like Scott and I dont know why more guys didnt get his birds before he gave them all to a close friend of his in Utah.
Just continue flying them and you will learn from tiral and error. But you have to be consistant in flying them from squeakers every day or every other day for months like any other birds.
You know how I said i like to feed them up and bring them down. I dont fly them when I feed them up. THey are rested sometimes a week to 10 days and then I begin feeding less and until I have control of them again. I never keep them in a good flying conditon or they will sky out on me. Its really something you have to find out what works for you. Good luck BIll C
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JMUrbon
958 posts
Mar 10, 2010
8:27 PM
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Bill believe me when I say this that I mean no disrespect to you on this but if I have to rest a kit for 10 days to get out of them their peak performance then I dont want nothing to do with them. I have seen some teriffic borges birds over the years but never have I heard anybody say they had to rest them for 10 days to control them. That to me is unaceptable. To me the only time I should have to lock a team down for more tham 3 of 4 days is either inclement weather or BOP. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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mirollers
12 posts
Mar 11, 2010
4:15 AM
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I practice essentially the same process that Bill C. does to ultimately control the birds and the potential for losses due to overflys. My birds aren't down from either Joe as I fly Plona strain straight from Stan's loft, but their roots are similar and, for the most part, are from a common gene pool if you go back a few years. Flying this family does create some challenges as they are built to fly and love to fly so if you don’t “keep your thumb on them” and, as importantly, your eye on the weather, they will be gone for sure. My experience has been that just cutting back on the feed quantity or quality isn’t a guarantee that you’ll have birds to fly tomorrow. When I sense that they are becoming a little too fit, now I just lock them down for a couple of weeks and essentially get them “out of shape” before I start to fly them again. Sure, you hate to do it especially if they are working hard but after losing at least my fair share of good birds to overflys, this system works for me. Since I generally have several kits that I fly anyway and don't always have the time to get them all out on a regular basis, this system works fine for me. It should be noted that I am talking about mature birds here, that is, birds that have been through their first juvenile moult. I essentially lock mature birds down anyway while they moult so I can enrich their diet and allow them the opportunity to grow good strong feathering. When the moult is complete, then you can crack the whip on them and see what they really are capable of without handicapping them with poor feather.
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2010 4:16 AM
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Scott
2914 posts
Mar 11, 2010
5:50 AM
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Same here with my birds.. if they get fly fit I lock them up and pound wt on them and then start over again.
Any more I use fast digesting grub also and stay clear of peas other than when locked down to pound wt on.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3918 posts
Mar 11, 2010
6:04 AM
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Scott, what do you mean "...fast digesting grub..."? Are you speaking of pellets?
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Your Own Custom Telephone # Bands
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2379 posts
Mar 11, 2010
6:53 AM
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I'd like to know the answer to Tony's question as well. I am flying out some Starley, Campbell and Crider (Kiser-Borges) birds just for the experience. I was flying them with my Turners, but have found that they lead the kits in hard, fast flying all over the sky. I have seen a few individual kitting problems, as well (just as with any other family), but no problem with them skying out, yet....in fact just the opposite...trying to get them to lift, slow down, and develope spin. But I don't pass judgement on any birds being flown on winter feed and a winter flying schedule. Anyway, I decided to put them all into the same kit composed only of that family of birds and feed them differently. It is interesting handling a completely different family. That's for certain.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2010 6:54 AM
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Scott
2915 posts
Mar 11, 2010
7:25 AM
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Actualy Tony.. yes I am as my main protein source along with Salflour (but not daily) .. along with Wheat and Milo.. the milo also being fast digesting..both Paul and Joe Emberton got me thinking on this...I can keep control without Wt. loss.
Cliff.. you have to cut down the protein once about 4-5 mo old.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3919 posts
Mar 11, 2010
7:40 AM
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Thanks, yeah Paul and his pellets...LOL...but it works great!
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Your Own Custom Telephone # Bands
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2381 posts
Mar 11, 2010
8:23 AM
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Thats's about where they are, Scott. I have them on 50-50 wheat and milo trying to trim down the winter fat. Thanks for the feedback.
Cliff
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JMUrbon
959 posts
Mar 11, 2010
10:24 AM
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Mirollers I can certainly understand were you are comming from. This may very well be the case with Bill and I am just reading it out of context. If it once every couple monthes I would be ok with that but on a regular basis I would loose interest in the birds. I say that because there are just as good of families out there that dont require it. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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mirollers
13 posts
Mar 11, 2010
11:22 AM
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Joe - I have never really quantified the frequency of using my system, I suspect a lot of it depends on the individuals in a particular kit or if the kit is made of certain sub-families in my loft. You can sure spot when you need to impose it though, for me, it can be several things...the kit starts to come down normally and then returns back up...they don't go through a "normal" ascension but fly rather tightly upward...their flying times increase for no apparent reason. Usually, while any of this is going on, the kit itself is really cranking away and at their best. If I'm not paying attention to the above and couple this with a day with a higher barometric pressure or one may be rising rapidly after say a storm with the associated low pressure systems, I put myself at pretty good risk to lose a few and it is almost without exception the better birds that don't return. There are all kinds of families of birds out there and if we all agreed as to which were the best, we would all be flying the same birds. The reason we all keep what we have (or should be) because we feel they are the best. For me, I have flown my family since the 70's and find a little care and patience in flying them is well worth the results.
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Southplainsroller
29 posts
Mar 11, 2010
11:32 AM
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This is very good info on feeding birds that tend to sky out. I am new at this, and I read about feeding them wheat and milo so I did and the birds would get too lean, and fly high for hours. I learned by trial and error to do just like yall have stated. when they start to get really fit, I hold them in and feed wheat and pellets, starting cutting then back with wheat/milo then fly them. It has worked so much better, and I can control them more.
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JMUrbon
960 posts
Mar 11, 2010
12:06 PM
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I can respect that. Sounds like you have put aot of thought into it. Dont get me wrong, I will lock my birds down in a heartbeat if I feel they are getting too fit but it just doesnt happen too often. I have always preached feeding the birds up in order to bring them down. Never has it worked to cut the feed on a team that is in prime shape. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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BBBrollers
15 posts
Mar 11, 2010
3:08 PM
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Good topic, though I am partial to Borges. More than anything he is a great man! I am fortunate to know both Joes! Their family is a strong family, but I have never had to lock down for more than a couple days...I fly mostly using wheat...this year has been a bad one for flying due to weather, sky sharks, schedule, moving (twice)...
In the past, the best kit was one (Bret Black, Utah) flew...he started flying them twice a day (this was before the shy sharks found him), by the time they were 5 months old they were cranking...then every other day (we tried every third day but this didn't work too well, so back to every other day), always flown at the same time of day (10AM, his break time).
Around 5-6 month mark they were flown every other day up until shortly before the scheduled fly (always adjudting the feed to how long they flew), day 1: flown, day 2: rested, day 3: flown, FLY DAY day 4: flown. During this every other day schedule they we feed mostly wheat, milo once in a while and peas now and then, nothing regular, everything pending on what they were doing in the air.
The kits I flew in 2005, 2008 were flown starting out the same twice a day, until the SS found me...I think the earlier you can get them flown and as much as possible is best for this family, then going through the process of breaking them down and building them up again works. I ususally have the squeekers kitting within the first 7-8 times out (good kitting family, at least my experience).
I charish the birds I got from Joe Borges and Kiser. I got a hen from JV a couple years ago and this bird has produced some great rollers (his family is basically the same)...you should chime in JV...
I remember each time we would see Joe Borges (when he lived in Utah and I was 10 minutes away) he was always teaching us...what a great mentor! He was a great breeder and flyer. I can still picture the day he came over when #4886 was in the air, and he asked what are you doing flying that bird (yes, she was cranking, that "inconceivable rapidity" and has produced the best bird I have seen in the air, damn falcon!)
Long post but thanks for bearing with me...if you want to send me a PM and talk more about the Borges/Kiser birds, great, but by now means am I an expert with this family...
Jason
blackandbrownrollers@yahoo.com
or
jason@jonesanddemille.com
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Bill C
509 posts
Mar 11, 2010
7:54 PM
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Hi Joe Urban, I have done this several times prior to a big fly. I have a much harder time controlling them and trying to get them in the right condition to roll more on a specific day if they are already in a good rolling condition. So I have rested them a week to even 10 days before and they tend to get fat. Not real fat but when they come out to fly they just enjoy flying and being somewhat overweight dont fly for a long time, Now I can see just where they are and go from that point each day until fly day ususally two weeks out.
I rested them this way for the convention and the Fall fly prior to comp day.
The thing with me is, if they are regulary flown all the time, like I do with local competition flying, its much harder to tweak them for fly day. I have had them fed just enough to fly for 45 minutes and on a nice day, they can fly up to three hours when in good flying condition too long.
Joe B once asked me if they were skying out on me and I told him, No, and he said, " They will, give them time, LOL.
I actually dont get them skying out on me if they are over fed and flown less. When they start going really high like skying out like dots, thats when I lock them up and rest them for a week. I think it helps from having over flies.
For the most part they are flown every other day or third day, but for me to really have control of them the best way I found is to start over with them and not trying to continue from the point where they are already before a comp fly.
I dont know if what I said makes sence or seems like a contradiction, but thats what I have done several times a year. Bill C
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Bill C
510 posts
Mar 11, 2010
8:04 PM
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I supose this all has nothing to do with the original post for birds all over the place. That should only be young birds out for thier first week of flying. But I just wanted to make sure I explained that when feeding up I did not mean to fly them. I never want rollers flying more than an 45 minutes or an hour at most. Something is wrong if they start flying longer and higher and for me feeding them up and resting them is my solution to that problem. Bill C
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2010 8:08 PM
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JMUrbon
963 posts
Mar 11, 2010
8:15 PM
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I see what you are talking about Bill. I doo the same but just not for 10 days. As long as it is working for you and you are happy with the results then I would say that is all that matters. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Bill C
511 posts
Mar 11, 2010
8:20 PM
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Hi Jason, I have not forgot about you! I am going to try the hard red wheat again later this summer. I have always fed a mix and only wheat and milo with other cuts just prior to a big fly.
THe staight wheat worrys me as I start to lose control with them going too high. It might be I never gave it enough time though? I will try it on a hold over kit for three weeks or more and see what they do later on next month. Some day I might try and stop in and visit on my way to my boys great Granpa in Nebraska. He comes to visit every year and is having problems with his leggs and if he cannot make the trip anymore I sure would like to take the boys on a trip to see him and stop by the Grand Canyon on the way back. Bill C
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mirollers
14 posts
Mar 12, 2010
3:43 AM
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I forgot to mention one other thing in my previous post that seems to go hand in hand with raising the chances for an overfly and that is wind direction. Perhaps it's just the way my loft is oriented with the terrain, the prevailing wind patterns, and the weather usually associated with wind direction. I live in Michigan near Grand Rapids and am about 25 miles or so directly east of Lake Michigan. The prevailing wind here is from the west (one of the reasons we get the sudden "lake effect" snows during the winter - another potential for loss if you have birds in the air and a snow squall blows in underneath them) and generally any storms bring with them an easterly wind. My loft is situated essentially on a hill that drops quite sharply down about 75 feet in elevation to the south but remains quite constant in elevation to the north, east, and west. If the wind is from the east, I can't recall ever having an overfly. Of course, east winds here again are generally associated with low pressure systems - if anything, with an east wind generally my birds don't come even close to wanting to rise up but stay at a relatively low altitude. Winds from due north or northeast also seems to keep the down which could be a function of the slight downdraft associated with the downward elevation change from my loft to the south. What I really need to watch is winds from the west or southwest - these winds are usually associated with high pressure here and I also believe there is some natural "uplift" associated with the wind coming up the hill. The other thing I make note of before deciding to open the kit doors is what the higher clouds (if there) are doing. If there is little or no wind at ground level and I can see the higher clouds (usually those "wispy ones"...I should have paid more attention in class to recall what type they are:-) are moving faster, I almost never let them out. I'd be curious if others have observed any correlation with terrain and/or wind direction and flyaways.
Last Edited by on Mar 12, 2010 6:15 AM
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Hammer_00
5 posts
Mar 13, 2010
8:06 AM
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Jc i feed the 50% 50 mix and once a week ill give my kit birds straight pigeon mx . Jay starley tought me this has worked for me for years. listen to people like j brown. people who fly old strain pensom birds they will help you the most.
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JC
18 posts
Mar 14, 2010
9:52 AM
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WOW. What a good bunch of info. to absorb. The only time I have lost any birds to overfly is when I turned them loose and about 10min later a Santa Ana (hi winds) started blowing. I knew they were gone and probably be 20 miles away before they landed. What I find strange is that I have been flying my cocks and hens separate and on the same feed and amount. My hens will sky out the cocks fly at a nice height. I'm going to try to get my cocks kitting a few times and introduce the hens one at a time and see if I can keep them down. Also will try a feed change as suggested. I have all mature birds flying now. I have a couple that were not doing anything at lockdown but the first and second time out were rolling real good. Not deep but frequent and quick (my standards not yours). I don't know if this is part of my problem but in my area I can only fly 10 birds due to city regulations. JC
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