Pinwheel
155 posts
Mar 08, 2010
7:30 PM
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Just wondering if anyone has thought about keeping semen stored from their best birds or from potential birds that are still being proven as a kind of security. Just in case something happens, you still have the genetics on hand to be used at a later date.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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Squabby*32
218 posts
Mar 08, 2010
7:38 PM
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Is that even possible? How would you be able to collect the sample? Just curious on what you are thinking.
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DJJeffman Spinners
ATAPWGIYAHTLY
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Pogohawk
51 posts
Mar 08, 2010
7:38 PM
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My mentor froze one of his foundation breeding cocks in hopes of getting him cloned one day. This was an 18 year old Homing pigeon who still bred 3 clutches of eggs in his last year. Absolutely incredible. I remember my mentor using "pigeon viagra" to get him going again. The bird had been infertile for two years prior. I'll have to let you guys know if anything ever comes of it.
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Pinwheel
156 posts
Mar 08, 2010
7:50 PM
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you actually can collect from a cock by massaing the cloaca. You can actually inseminate hens with the semen you collect to. Its written on how to do it in the book Avian medicine if youd like to read for yourself. you can find the book online. I have never but would like to one day experiment. Its really a Hypothetical question:
If the capability was there, would you have the desire to keep your top birds genetics frozen for later usage.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2010 7:52 PM
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Squabby*32
222 posts
Mar 08, 2010
7:54 PM
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Very interesting.
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DJJeffman Spinners
ATAPWGIYAHTLY
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Pinwheel
157 posts
Mar 08, 2010
8:08 PM
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The idea came to me after visiting a bovine semen freezing company and learning about some semen frozen from the 1960's and was apparently still viable but would never be used becuase the genetics would be out of date. And so I have to take everything i learn and see how it would fit in the pigeon world. In theory you would send me your cock bird. Id collect as much for however long you wanted. Extend the semen, then freeze with liquid nitrogen and when the hawk got your best one! you could still have the possibility of getting offspring out of the bird.
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4195 posts
Mar 08, 2010
9:50 PM
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I remember my days when I was a co-owner of a freight company finding out that frozen bull sperm was the highest freight class. Just thought I would throw that in for thought.
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
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wishiwon2
311 posts
Mar 08, 2010
10:12 PM
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I think different animals have varying 'shelf life' with frozen semen. I dont know how well bird semen stores and/or how viable it is upon thawing. Some species dont freeze well. But my learning about that is old, from 20 yrs ago in college. Perhaps they have developed new, better techniques for extending and storing different spp.
I have seen and done A.I. (artificial insemination) on chickens, but never tried on pigeons. With the chickens, it was a matter of excessive feather and wanting to keep birds in show shape. It was not a collection and preservation.
One of the limits would be stimulating the egg into ovulation and producing an egg without a cock driving her. It could work like some poly-mating systems I suppose, but would require work and the chance of proper timing.
Storage would be another concern. Liquid nitrogen tanks arent cheap to maintain. It only takes one ooops and its gone forever.
Certainly is thought provoking ...
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2010 10:26 PM
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gabe454
1618 posts
Mar 08, 2010
10:13 PM
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LOL..
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GABE
454 LOFT
L.P.R.C
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2010 10:14 PM
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Pinwheel
158 posts
Mar 09, 2010
6:40 AM
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I have no idea on the shelf life as you may be right. It was more or less a thought provoking idea. The maintenance of the hen probably requires more skill as you ideally would use a sterile cock bird and allow the mating and stimulation and on a particular day you, inseminate them. Just making convo
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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lew3015
99 posts
Mar 09, 2010
6:54 AM
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The TV show Dirty Jobs, had a show on awhile back showing them collecting semen and than fertilizing turkeys, maybe some of you had seen it. The show went on to say that turkey semen will not keep in a frozen state, it has to be used right away. Now these were turkey's they were talking about, but they are also part of the bird family, just like pigeons, so bottom line, trying to collect and save pigeon semen would be a fruitless endeavor.
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Lew
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LazzzyJJ
5 posts
Mar 09, 2010
7:13 AM
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Could pigeon semen be shipped immedialty like they do with the dogs and used within 2 or 3 days? If so, selling semen off of the Top Birds would be possible.
Is there a way to DNA pigeons, so one would know that they got what they purchased and not just semen any bird? Also, if DNA testing was possible one could run an open loft and then test the youngsters for genetics, if it is not to costly.
Has anyone researched to see if it is possible to freeze "pigeon" semen. If so, the storage can be done by paying a rental fee to the artificial breeding companies that have the equipment. This is common practice with cattle semen. JJ
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Pinwheel
159 posts
Mar 09, 2010
7:24 AM
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That was my interest in it. Is getting semen from top birds. Im looking into it. Not much on pigeons but chickens there seems to be success in doing it. ill get back to ya with what I find.
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winwardrollers
444 posts
Mar 09, 2010
8:37 AM
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Pinwheel
You are right about chickens and artifical insemination. A guy in our area flies pigeons with us use to show chickens and would collect semen from cocks and transfer it to hens. The problem with pigeons is that they don't cycle like chickens. Hen can lay an egg every day, pigeons cycle every 8 to ten days. Lining up with the cycle of a pigeon would not be easy.
Pinwheel it seem to be.. Nicksiders.. may be the guy to give you ideas about the extraction process.
Seriously... talking with the guy it didn't seem to promising or he would be doing it with rollers since he had the know how from inseminating chickens.
Last Edited by on Mar 09, 2010 8:46 AM
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Scott
2912 posts
Mar 09, 2010
9:36 AM
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You know I have put many things in the wifes freezer and fridge .. but this might cross the line with her LOL
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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wannaroll
160 posts
Mar 09, 2010
11:35 AM
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That's what happens when the Navy goes too far north. You end up with frozen seaman. LOL!!
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Dave - Hesperia, CA.
(San Bernardino Mountain Spinners)
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
GOLD MEMBER
2943 posts
Mar 09, 2010
5:15 PM
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I heard of human semen frozen...........lol
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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Pinwheel
164 posts
Mar 09, 2010
5:33 PM
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I bet you have... you collect too? lol
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Mar 09, 2010 5:35 PM
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Pinwheel
166 posts
Mar 09, 2010
5:48 PM
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So ive found in the world poultry science journal 2007 issue 2... they have made advances in semen cyropreservation and has been in the works for about 100 years. One experiment was able to maintain turkey fertility to an amount acceptable for cryogenics at about 35% fertility. Geese and chickens had the highest fertility while ducks, guniea fowl, turkey, and some wild species were not as successful. Nothing on pigeons so far, so it would be interesting to see how they would stack up to the more fertile chicken(as far as cyropreservation is concerned).
The reason that guy that does chicken insemination doesnt do it probably lies in the fact that there is no reason for him to do it and not worth it. His males mount his hens and im sure produces and keeps his genetics where its at as far as a hobby is concerned. Just a thought.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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winwardrollers
445 posts
Mar 09, 2010
5:57 PM
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It keeps the hen chickens in good condition for show purposes and still be able to get fertile eggs out of them.
bwinward
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Pinwheel
167 posts
Mar 09, 2010
6:04 PM
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I meant for the rollers. too bad pigeons dont lay eggs every day. ;)
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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Dave Szab
13 posts
Mar 09, 2010
8:28 PM
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It was so cold this past winter, that I'm sure that mine froze at least once.
Dave
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RodSD
385 posts
Mar 10, 2010
9:31 PM
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Yes, it is possible. After freezing the sperm, you can then use it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba_BgCCtXa4
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Pinwheel
171 posts
Mar 11, 2010
5:49 AM
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Thanks RodSD. I should have thought about the racing industry first. here is the website if anyone wants to learn about it
http://www.artificial-pigeon.com/eUntitledFrameset-49.htm
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LazzzyJJ
6 posts
Mar 11, 2010
5:59 AM
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Has anyone found out if there is a reasonable DNA test is available? JJ
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Pinwheel
172 posts
Mar 11, 2010
6:06 AM
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DNA test? to see if your bird is really the breed you say? If so, then first you need a database of DNA from all the breeds. And thankfully there is an undergraduate student working on this Utah I think. Just identifying markers for each breed and her work will be at the NPA grand national.
http://www.biology.utah.edu/shapiro/Shapiro_Lab/Pigeons.html
heres the website. Check it out. We can even help in the research!
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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LazzzyJJ
7 posts
Mar 11, 2010
6:16 AM
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1. Can they take the DNA a step further to determine which birds are the exact parents to a certian bird?
2. Would the DNA testing results on a "True Birmingham" be different than one that is crossed, such as a "Rare Colored Roller"?
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Pinwheel
173 posts
Mar 11, 2010
8:26 AM
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Yes and here is one company that can tell you how closesly related your bird is and if the parentage matches the bird in question so long as you have samples from all the birds in question
http://theriondna.com/
# Sire/Dam Verification
# Registry/Individual Identity
# Strain Characterization/Genetic Monitoring
# Estimation of Genetic Variation within/among populations
# Breed/Population/Subspecies Differentiation
# Identification of DNA markers linked to performance traits or genetic disorders
# Research and Development for the identification of novel DNA markers.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2010 8:27 AM
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RodSD
387 posts
Mar 11, 2010
7:48 PM
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Pinwheel,
Wow! Thanks for the links. The researcher at the Dr. Shapiro has collected some samples already from homing pigeons.
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Pinwheel
178 posts
Mar 11, 2010
9:02 PM
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Not sure the price or how feasable it is to acquire samples especially if they want blood and nothing else. But its one source, Im sure there are others out there, but that one seemed like it did more then just sexing. It would be nice to do especially if you are very hardcore into your family of birds to have DNA testing done especially for sale purposes I suppose to. Value ADDED!
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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