George R.
244 posts
Dec 28, 2009
11:19 AM
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Should the NBRC and World Cup Fly rules be changed to include a STRICT judgeing standard (YES) or should the Fly rules be left alone (NO) ?
If You can please explain why you voted Yes Change the Rules or why you Voted NO leave the Rules as they are.
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 11:19 AM
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J_Star
2216 posts
Dec 28, 2009
11:38 AM
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Yes.
Because I on a personal level and of opinion think that we should not exclude the X wingers if they spin comparable to the H and better. However, to discourage flyers, new or veterans, from using such birds is by punishing them with the score sheet. The score will be lowered due to the low multiplier used. It is as simple as that since the NBRC rules and regulation don’t call for X wingers as culls and/or not worthy of a score.
Jay
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Scott
2753 posts
Dec 28, 2009
11:49 AM
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Jay..most consider X wing the starting point for acceptable.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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JMUrbon
819 posts
Dec 28, 2009
12:41 PM
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I was under the impression that X was scorable and was being scored by all including myself as Scott stated as the minimum. The question is to the Axle style and I dont really thinx it comes up enough to warrent any more discussion about it. However I do think that the rules could use some clarification so my vote would be yes. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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donnie james
853 posts
Dec 28, 2009
12:49 PM
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hay george,
i have to agree with scott and a lot of roller guys don't know the difference in the wing positions and i would yes but like scott most consider "X" wing start points for acceptable..................
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 5:59 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2268 posts
Dec 28, 2009
1:34 PM
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It depends what you mean by STRICT. If you mean clearly-worded and well-defined as to what is expected for scoreable performance in the NBRC, and approved by a majority of the flyers, then I would say YES. If by STRICT you mean setting the bar so high that only experienced flyers who have proven their stock loft and honed a kit of holdovers or two can effectively compete, then I vote NO.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 2:05 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3989 posts
Dec 28, 2009
1:55 PM
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Yes. Too many who are judging are interjecting their own personal preferences which will eventually be the downfall of any competition. The rules need to be decided and approved by the many and not the few.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Scott
2755 posts
Dec 28, 2009
2:57 PM
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I have not seen this Nick out of the countless judges that I have flown under..what judges have done this ?
( Too many who are judging are interjecting their own personal preferences )
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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JMUrbon
821 posts
Dec 28, 2009
3:45 PM
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I have to agree with Scott. Never have I seen this. I will ask you this Nick and anybody else that wishes to respond. In all of the flies that you have attended and I dont mean partially attended has the best kit been on top at the end of the day. I can only think of 2 flies in the last 20 years that I have been on that I felt an inferior kit won a fly. Now I am not talking about kits that are closely matched I am talking about a complete garbage kit that is nothing but movement beating out a quality kit. Be honest about this please. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 5:40 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3990 posts
Dec 28, 2009
5:29 PM
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Scott,
Sense you stated that there has been none that you have ever stood under a kit with then who I would name you would disagree, so why name them?
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Scott
2756 posts
Dec 28, 2009
5:36 PM
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Nick all I have seen is judges with higher standards than others..we had always avoided the other .
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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J_Star
2218 posts
Dec 28, 2009
5:57 PM
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Scott, for instance, some judges will stop judging a kit when attached by BOP and split into two or three groups while the flyer is losing precious time. On the other hand, other judges will continue scoring the larger of the groups. This has nothing to do with quality but with preference and the judge make his own call regardless of your plea.
Jay
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 6:04 PM
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Scott
2757 posts
Dec 28, 2009
6:20 PM
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Jay.. seperate issue.. common sence has to be used and it can't be cut and dry in this instance... there is a reason for the 5 min. timeout rule.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Mongrel Lofts
634 posts
Dec 28, 2009
7:19 PM
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I still can't figure out what Cliff and Nick are talking about, rules so strict only a few can score. All that has been suggested is cull axle winged rollers not be scored. What is so strict about not scoring culls? I vote NO. Leave the rules alone. With the national fly director lying about what is being proposed with such twisted logic. We are safer to leave it to the judges. I will gamble they have more common sense than these guys. I will take my chances with the judges knowing I will get one like Nick or Cliff that will score anything, including axle winged rollers. Most won't! So I will cast my lot with the judges. KGB
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 7:21 PM
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Scott
2758 posts
Dec 28, 2009
7:29 PM
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Kenny.. this was always my fear of setting a standard .. and that it could force judges to score culls .. and lo and behold guess what is being pushed by some.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3991 posts
Dec 28, 2009
10:28 PM
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Scott,
There is nobody asking any judge to score a cull. You are assuming that if you think it is a cull then it is a cull. You may be the person who is wrong.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2271 posts
Dec 29, 2009
5:48 AM
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Joe,
Not speaking for Nick, But I am not sure that is what he is talking about. I "think" he is wanting all judges and flyers using the same fly rules, same minimum quality standards, same suggested 10-foot minimum, same set of faults, etc. It is not about poor judges, it is about some judges using personal opinions as a substitute for fly rules. And right now they can because the fly rules give them that right. So you see why Scott and Kenny are not in favor of standardizing the rules. They are afraid that the majority opinion of the flyers may be something other than their personal opinion. So they NEED the ambiguity in rules. Then they can call everything with a fault a cull and, in the process, disrespect anyone who does not share their opinion. I think we have seen this tactic many times before, over and over. LOL!
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2273 posts
Dec 29, 2009
9:27 AM
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Scott
Using nothing but the fly rules, please show us your justification for your opinion that any wing position, be it axel or low X or whatever, is automatically a cull and as such is not scoreable.
Cliff
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3818 posts
Dec 29, 2009
1:42 PM
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Well I uh...see its like this...errr I mean...ahhh a cull is a cull and no rule change is going to errr ahhh, fool me once shame on me, I ahhh..."interpretation" you reefer smokin midgets, its the interpretation!
LOL Just funnin Scott!
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Ty Coleman
832 posts
Dec 29, 2009
3:21 PM
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Scott,
There is nobody asking any judge to score a cull. You are assuming that if you think it is a cull then it is a cull. You may be the person who is wrong.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
AMEN NICK Siders
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ty Coleman
833 posts
Dec 29, 2009
3:26 PM
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Scott and Kenny, Have you guy's ever stoped to think that if a roller does not roll to your standards that it is not a great roller. Just because you dont like it does not make it junk. That is why we need a set standard so personal opinions do not get in the way. I personaly could care less were the wings are, they could be stuck up the birds rear end as long as it's smooth and has high velocity I will consider it scorable until we have a standard that says other wise.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2009 3:28 PM
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Sound Rollers
163 posts
Dec 29, 2009
4:35 PM
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I thought the idea was to get the hole kit to roll at the same time. It seems to me that some flyers who like to see deep rolls, would like to pick apart the quality of the roll, because that standard limits the amount of breaks.
John
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Square
770 posts
Dec 29, 2009
4:37 PM
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Im up for this, However there is one thing being overlooked in my opion, and that is we all view rollers/kits diffrent,,, we are speakin "IN my opion as if the judge is viewing the birds from the bottom everytime.... not the side or a angle viewed upwards....It just crazy!!! as we cant always see a bird from the bottom..... Look at the illistrations this Xwinged bird looks like a ball when viewes from the side.. Then take into consideration everyone fly birds in a diffrent location meaning on flat city, brod country and so on and soforth....not to mention on a mountaintop where the bird fly at eyelevel or even a rooftop for that matter.... I can tell you this ... I personally knew nothin about X, H , A, And iguess now 0 wing position till recently,,,.... Meaning like 10years ago been into rollers 30years... So unless you can view every kit from the bottom and it's the same for everyone then in My opion its pointless.... Conditions vary, weather varyies, location varies and the birds vary honestly do your birds in the Ateam roll the same everytime????,,, However I hope the whole spinning ball remains the same... And when I find a guy that has 20 birds spinning in unison with the A/H/ or what ever is considers the best Everytime,,,I will consider somthin diffrent...... What ever it is keep it consistant all I have ever tryed is to keep it consistant,, with the whole spinning ball thing,,,, But if thats changing based on views !!!! Meaning seeing every roller in the kit from the bottom H-style or better... WOW guess Ill shut the F#C@Kup...LOL And good luck on that view.. My opion only... And the ones that acomplish this .....Good lucc.. I dont breed for substandard birds....Just trying to keep pace...
P.S as far as the post on the poll well I would have to say,,,,Im unclear and open to either side,,,, just dont wanna commit to a view that is as common as a shootin star....and if you can show me 20 at the same time im sold....LOL.....Good luck Bro's.
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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Scott
2760 posts
Dec 29, 2009
5:09 PM
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Ty.. make no mistake.. such a bird is pure junk and I am far from the only one that refuses to score these culls... now the problem is esculating to screwing up you new flyers..what a shame.
John..you should most certainly pick apart any bird..deep ones are easy to breed..good deep ones where they are doing everything corectly are not.
When a bird is is the spin look at the mechanics of it..not just a bird spinning.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2009 7:08 PM
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fhtfire
2379 posts
Dec 29, 2009
5:36 PM
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Back to the point of the thread.....my answer is this
Axle Roller...UNDESIRABLE TRAIT-in the breeding world this means a cull...not to be allowed to breed or be showcased in a competition. NON-Scorable bird.
X wing..Minimum ACCEPTABLE Wing Position..can be scored.
H- Desirable wing Position
A-Desirable wing position
That is it...that is how I feel about it...the key is UNDESIRABLE...so the posts for the thread..judging wing position....the term undesirable in the breeding world means cull.
We do not want undesirable traits showcased in competition or to breed from. Regardless if the bird is super fast and super deep....it still posesses and undesirable trait...a fast deep non kitter that t00 had an undesirable trait....a fast deep wing switch posseses and undesirable trait....we want to set the standard to the minimum we would put in our stock lofts anything below is not acceptable. We want birds in the teams and in the stock loft that have the whole package....have desirable traits on every aspect of the bird....it is that simple...and to be honest....not scoring an axle roller is very easy to do....there are not many out there and it gives a clear picture to the newbies....that you want to breed to the desired traits....that easy..it wont be any harder to judge either...if you see an axle roller you deduct a point per axle roller the same you would as an extra bird....if the axle roller is tearing it up from the side and you cant tell it is an axle you score it..because you score what you see...you never assume the bird is an axle rolling even if it did the break before...because you best bird can have a birp and even wing switch...just look at risk vs gain....the risk to not score such a bird..is MINIMAL....the gain is that every fancier now has a standard to breed from and a governing body has set the standard like every other governing body....and we have bettered the breed for the long term....
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2009 5:38 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2279 posts
Dec 29, 2009
6:12 PM
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Tony
Damn! You are good! Do you have any sponge Bob shorts? My only suggestion is you must learn to use fewer words and say even less. What about a sheep, got one of those?
Scott's all right, his heart is in the right spot.
Cliff
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J_Star
2222 posts
Dec 30, 2009
9:04 PM
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We always try to justify our views using the line "for the new guy" from color, mutts, culls, feather merchants to what have you. Can we just focus on the issues at hand without bringing the poor justification of "the new guy" cheap line!
Jay
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