Russ
Guest
Jun 05, 2004
7:05 PM
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How many would stock a perfect individual spinner that won't kit? (depth doesn't matter, I'm talking about the spin only).
Why? or Why not?
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
78 posts
Jun 05, 2004
9:24 PM
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Russ, I have not "stocked" per say a bird that wouldn't kit, but I have tried a few that were exceptional spinners that had kitting issues and low and behold they pretty much produced birds that did the same. I have tried a few super nice spinners that eventually got too hot and wouldn't kit because they usually ended up rolling too much and they have produced some excellent spinners that did kit and maintain while also producing some stone cold roll downs too. I'll give a bird a shot at a mate if it can ball it up and at least shows some heart well before I'll ever try a bird that just avoids the kit ever again.
Brian.
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Mother lode lofts
19 posts
Jun 05, 2004
9:38 PM
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Russ I would never stock such a bird,there's a whole package that come's with a good bird,if a bird doesn't kit it's a cull and it's really quite that simple,keep in mind that there's a reason why a spinning bird won't kit,the kit excites it and it doesn't have the fortitude (heart) to handle it,but you must also give them time to get a handle on it as many will straighten up,I'll normally give them a few weeks and sometimes a bit longer or untill they just plain get on my nerves,nothing worse than a non-kitter and nothing will create more problems in a team than a non-kitter !!
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George Ruiz
Guest
Jun 05, 2004
10:12 PM
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If the bird is a perfect indivisual spinner I will fly it during the lockdown (nov. thru march hawk season) just to watch some spin, that would be the only thing the bird would do at my loft . If the preds get him no biggie its a cull.
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Joe
Guest
Jun 07, 2004
3:13 AM
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It depends on what stage you are at in the roller fancy. Experienced guys will tell you not to stock a non kitter. They employ more strict selection criterion when selecting their stock birds as they should be at a stage where they can be more discerning. When you start you may have to be more liberal with your selection because its all you got to work with.
What it all comes down to is if its the best you have bar the kitting problem I would breed from it. Give it a mate that is a good kitter and breed a few round and see what you get.
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Dry Creek lofts
18 posts
Jun 07, 2004
5:22 AM
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I may be steping in where I dont need to go but as I see it when you stock a bird it is becouse it is doing what you want your birds to do.
In flying it fly's where you want it to fly at the right hight and roll's as it should and kits when it is done rolling.
Rolling is but one part of the picture and in it's self is not enough to stock a bird. There are to many factors in flying a performance bird to risk your breeding on just one part of what the bird should be doing.
Weather you are a new person to the sport or not you would be better off with birds that do all of the things that are required than you would be with a loft full of birds that wont do anything but roll by them selfs.
You would be wasting a lot of time trying to breed out a bad point to get one good point.
Chuck
Last Edited by Dry Creek lofts on Jun 07, 2004 5:23 AM
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Anonymous
Guest
Jul 02, 2004
12:55 PM
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Kitting is first thing you should see when stocking a bird. It is a cull
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Anonymous
Guest
Jul 02, 2004
2:22 PM
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Russ,
Stocking a non-kitter is a very serious no in my book. If your in it for the competition or just a backyard flyer. You know better than to keep a non-kitting bird. You would like to watch a group of birds instead of the entire sky to see the birds roll. It would be easier to select your birds from a group of birds instead of one here and one there. If you keep non-kitting birds what happens when one rolls down while your back is turned and dies? Do you count it off as a hawk attack. If you have non-kitters and one lands in the tree for most of its time out? Your loft should be your very best. Not one that is a good roller and one that is a good kitter. It's the rollers that do it right. If you place non-kitting bird in your loft you might be placeing something in there that you don't want down the road.
Out of 194 birds {last two years} I stocked 4 birds, these are the best I raised in the past 2 years. Now I do have some others that are good rollers. But they are not as equiped as the 4. And I believe after 5 to 6 years of this type of selecting you should have some very good birds. Either for Competition or for your own back yard.
I was raised with this idea all my life "It don't cost more to raise a excellent bird than a cull" so why settle for second rate?
If this non-kitter is flying with some younger birds do you think he/she will pull some of the birds away from the Kit? Then you will have more non-kitters to deal with.
When I cull, 1st thing is they have to kit. And if they don't kit after there 5 months old and the others are well its gone. Then I watch on how well the birds react with each other. Is there birds pulling the team along and not setting up or jelling. Is there birds that try to resist the roll? Then does the bird roll with good style and speed. Then are they frequent? The more you place in your birds like quality, depth, And frequency. The more you will enjoy your birds either in competition or in your own backyard.
But never settle for second best, all you are doing is selling yourself short.
Just my two cents worth
Brian Middaugh
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Steve
Guest
Jul 02, 2004
2:49 PM
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Amen Middaugh!
Good Post.
They have to have the total package.
We can't keep mixing or switching families either.
Breed the families pure and for a few years the traits will come out good or bad it takes time to see results.
Wheather you are a back yard or comp fancier,
Remove the bad traits as we go along and never use a breeder thinking you can breed out bad traits as non-kitting,to frequent,not frequent enough,bad style or physical traits that are not up to par.
These bad traits will always pop up in time and get worse.
Been there done that.
It is hard enough to get some stockable birds each year and I know it takes the numbers to get them to a degree where we start to up the percentages when we finally get some breeders in the stock loft with the goods.
Later
Steve Sissel
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Russ
Guest
Jul 02, 2004
3:01 PM
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Brian, I appreciate your response and also all the other responses. My opinion of the bird and what I would do with such a bird is the same as all who responded. Personally, I would never stock a bird like this because it has a major fault. But on the other hand I sure would fly him as an individual for my own entertainment! A bird that spins perfect is a beautiful thing!! I posted the question because I was curious to hear the opinions of others. I was also hoping to hear from guys that breed for the 'True' birmingham roller as I know that some are against kit competition and it would have livened up the discussion board a bit to have a good debate. Thanks to all!
Russ
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Mother lode lofts
31 posts
Jul 02, 2004
5:48 PM
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Russ those that are against competition that claim that they breed for "the true Birmingham Roller" are a farse and a joke,Russ I don't care how good a roller is if it doesnt kit it's a cull that lacks heart,and on top of there's also just as good or better in the kit that does have the heart,never and I mean never have I ever stocked anything other than the best and deepest type bird that truelly represents the breed,the only differance between a competitor and one that does'nt is that the competitor will show all,the good the bad and the ugly because it does'nt matter how good a team is they can still get ugly at times,the non-competitors just tell you how good thier birds are want to knock those that are do'ers,now on kitting,once my youngsters are airborn they will kit within 3 days or so and from that point on kitting is tight untill the roll hits and then there will be some birds that will do the in an out thing for a bit untill they get a handle on it,if a bird does'nt kit before the roll comes on it is culled automaticly although it's very rare here,I don't think that I culled a single bird last year due to kitting but I did have some birds (deep) that gave me some problems untill they worked through things and got a handle on the roll,and they are not in the A team when they are going through this,yes I am a competitor and no I do not cull my best birds LOL,Russ I have travled long and far out of my own backyard to see whats out there.
thats my opinion
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Joe
Guest
Jul 03, 2004
2:43 AM
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In 2002 I bread 43 birds off 7 pairs of rollers. Of these young I had 2 birds that were a cut above the rest. The 1st was a hen that was stable, tight and frequent. The 2nd was a cock that was fast as hell but had kitting problems. He would fly for about 5 minutes with the kit when the kit was released and then break away and do his own thing. He seamed to enjoy flying and just drift in the air at a slow pace. Every 2-3 minutes he would let rip with the fastest rolls I have ever bread. He was a joy to watch and stable. He was also the horniest cock I had ever had in rollers. I was contemplating heavily about culling him. I couldn't do it. He rolled to good to be cast off. I bread him with the hen. Out of 5 young I got from them non have the bad kitting habit. One is looking to be definite stockable quality. The others are just developing the roll. They are around 5-7 months old.
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Anonymous
Guest
Jul 03, 2004
5:48 AM
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I just got the NBRC Bulletin and there is an article by Hugo Blaas and he makes a statement about the champion 'individual' roller. On page 96 he states "if these individuals prove their merit, they should rightfully earn their place in the breeding loft. To my manner of thinking these are the only ones that should be stocked anyway."
I've heard that Hugo had some good birds, did he ever compete? Does anyone still raise his birds?
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Mother lode lofts
32 posts
Jul 03, 2004
8:52 AM
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Joe good post,you hit something there also as far as it being a very cocky cock,it sounds like the hormones were the main problem and generally when they do this they are simply trying to pull a hen out,there was only one thing that was on that guy's mind LOL,personally I prefer the heny cocks that sit in the box and don't drive the hens,these are generally slower maturing or maybe even fairies LOL,either way they don't cause problems and they tend to pass on the trait,I wish that I knew how to castrate these little suckers LOL as cocks become a real problem in the longer days of Spring,whenever I deal with an outbird the first thing I do is try to determine the cause,is it hurt? is the moult a problem ? or just a phase ? or is it a bird where the roll has control of the bird rather then him having control of the roll of course the better spinners you just plain give more time sometimes it's just wishful thinking and sometimes our patiance pays off,unless it's a youngbird that's just not kitting for no apparent reason,in these cases they are just a waste of time you have to just use common sence with thease birds in all aspect of the sport,as for your cock,I would have cut the feed on him which usually does the trick
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
87 posts
Jul 03, 2004
4:06 PM
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Good posts Joe and Scott. Today I did something I have never done before, I put away a 6 month old cock for good. I say never done before because I only retire a bird to breeding after it has shown me all the goods (kitting, rolling, roll type, frequency, etc.) and after they have completed a season or more. But today I found myself in a quandry. I have a young cock bird that is 6 months old and has been rolling really good since he was about 3 months old. Everyday he puts on one hell of a show and has the biggest heart I have seen in a bird that is 3 times a minute frequent. I sat there today watching him hit 40 footers-plus and straight and true as an arrow, then had to ask myself a series of questions to challenge my better judgement. I realized that this bird rolls a nice H-pattern and is super smooth on every roll, is more frequent than any I am flying, snaps out of every roll nicely and hunts down the kit with pure ambition. In all the days he has been performing in this team he has never once been an outbird. I then realized how incredibly awesome it would be to have a kit of 20 just like him on comp day. His only down fall is he has a tendency to hit when landing with the kit. His brother from last season did the very same thing, but overcame it to become a great roller and was also put away this spring for breeding. After going over and over it all in my head, the positives about this bird solidly outweighed his one short coming. I finalized my thoughts with one question to myself, would I hate to lose a bird of this caliber? Needless to say, I went against my usual judgement and put him away as soon as he landed. His performance, barring his novice landing procedure, is exactly what I want to see a kit full of over my house.
Brian.
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tim_barnwell_1966
40 posts
Jul 04, 2004
1:21 AM
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I realy engoyed this poste i look up to u guys for all the info and help you have all gave me as moste of you know im just a back yarder im not abl to do all the comp stuff but i love waching a good kit fly keep up theas good poste its a lot of help to me thanks
KEEPEM ROLLING !!!!!!!!
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BLUE CORNER BANTAMS
& Pigeons
BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS:
yellow : almond : kites
baldheads : rec red
brown : black : blue bar
allso breeding : CONTINENTAL ROLLERS
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JUrbon
2 posts
Sep 17, 2004
9:01 AM
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Boy there are some great posts on this subject so I wont take to much time but to just say that if you are going to stock a bird than do it right the first time. A bird should employ ALL of the traits that you are looking for in order to even be considered for the stock loft. Lets be honest here and say that it cost no more to fly it than it does to stock it so if it has any flaws at all that you simply keep it in the air and out of the stock loft. Also rollers are creatures of habbit and once a habbit is formed it is really hard if not impossible to break so if the bird has a kitting problem for very long than you have to get rid of the bird .Unless of course you want to get rid of the rest of your kit and try to find birds that will fly with the bird that wants to be by himself. LOL
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