Flying Roller
7 posts
Feb 13, 2004
9:55 AM
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As a newbie in the sport, I'm very interested in knowing what the best feeding program is for Breeders, & fliers. Type of grain fed, and frequency of feedings. Is it similar to how you would feed performing & breeding Tipplers? Thanks.
Terry
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 14, 2004
10:21 AM
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Terry the breeders I feed either pellets or mixed grains in the 16-20 percent range,pellets will get messy due to the salt in them and the added water consumption,so I won't use pellets when it's theres a lot of moisture in the air,as for the fliers you need to go to whoever that you got your birds from as it can vary so greatly from family to family and from climate to climate.
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
47 posts
Feb 18, 2004
8:36 PM
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Its my understanding from others that pellets contain anti-biotics. I have never verified this though.
But this is not the main reason I don't use it. Droppings are too loose and attracts flys.
I use 16-20% pigeon pop and mix in oyster shell grit. Babies come out a good size with the grit and pop mix. Although on pellets squabs seem to be much larger...
Fly problem is minimal or non-existent with pop and grit mix.
Tony Chavarria
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viper
4 posts
Feb 20, 2004
7:22 PM
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I also use pellets but they are turkey grower pellets.The pellets aresmall and easy for the birds to eat.they do have anti bodys and vitamans.The babys grow fast and healthy.I only feed to birds raising babies.The pellets break down faster so babys don't have to wait to eat.Seems to help the fosters feed better so the babys grow fast with less sickness and loss.
for flyers white wheat and milo.When they start getting to ragged they get a big protien charge (pigeon mix or peas).
Last Edited by viper on Feb 20, 2004 7:24 PM
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STARFIRE
27 posts
Mar 02, 2004
6:02 PM
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For feeding breeders to raise young the only thing to use is pellets(either chicken or turkey).I mix the pellets with cracked corn,at the rate of 3 bags pellets to 1 bag of cracked corn.This will stop them from crapping messy after a few days after their digestive system get used to it.I fly my youngsters on hard Canadian western wheat.I dont use anything else.Pellets and corn for the breeders and wheat for the flyers.Straight whole corn in the winter.I've been doing this for 40 years and have no trouble with either flying them or breeding them.You get the most healthy youngsters on pellets.They have all the nutrition that the young birds need.When you feed mixed grain to breeders the youngsters all don't get tha same variety of food ,because some birds like certain grains and wont eat others they dont like.When they eat pellets they all get the same nutrition.It's the same with flying youngsters.If you feed them mixed grain,different birds like different grains.
When you feed staight wheat to them they all eat the same.That way you can get them down to 1 tblsp. per bird and they will all eat the same.Real fast=Works for me!
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Bluesman
16 posts
Mar 03, 2004
4:04 AM
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Starfire.Very interesting Post.I have a couple questions for you.Back in the 60s we couldn,t afford anything but scratch grain.Usually a mix of Cracked corn,Wheat,Oats.Also just whole corn.All pigeons,chickens,doves,turkeys,guineas whatever feathered bird we had all got the same feed.Everything growed,layed,& survived good.We also had a bad problem with Canker.Somewhere along the way some of the old timers claimed it was coming from corn.Most quit feeding corn and canker problems really was reduced.When I got back into Rollers one of my old buddies reminded me of the Canker problem & the No corn thing.Recently found out that cracked corn exposes the heart of the kernnel and will mould easily and when eaten by caged pigeons will kill them.I think I read where you live in Canada.Also heard that you all didn,t have all the things that plague us fellows in the states because of the severe cold you all have.I live in Pa.
I use a Game Bird mainentence Pellet of 16%.Less than half the price of the Kaytee.I use a mix of Kaytee 12% No Corn grain mix & the pellets.About 60% grain & 40% pellets.Works very good for the breeders but the Kaytee feed has jumped in price over 4.00 a 50# bag in the past year.No Airports or Train tracks here so everything has to be trucked in.What is your input on this & what percent protien is the pellets you use.Thanks,David
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Mar 03, 2004
7:41 AM
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Good info there Dave,where I am theres no need for corn,but I have heard over and over again about the problems feeding cracked corn and canker,but I'm sure climate has a lot to do with it,Starfire the wheat out of Canada is some or the best and I hear that the protien can kick up to 15 0/0 - 16 0/0,with the wheat around here I would shrivel up youngbird kits,old birds do pretty well on it but still need more protien at times,whats your thoughts on this /
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
27 posts
Mar 03, 2004
3:33 PM
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I was always under the impression that the relationship to corn and canker, more precisely cracked corn and canker was do to the hard, jagged edges of the cracked corn scratching the throat. If a bird had canker in it (more do than we realize) then it would come down with a case of it, mainly the young babies. On the flip side, I still get babies now and then that come down with canker and I feed a small seed breeder mix with only a minute bit of popcorn in it. Usually a bird will get canker in the mouth area due to a wound of some kind, even a scratch. If you have ever bitten the inside of your mouth and got one of those canker sores you know what I mean.
Interesting about the percentage of protein in the wheat Scott. I noticed over the last six months or so the wheat I feed my kit birds is much smaller and sort of looks shiveled up. Every now and then I open a bag and the grains look plump and robust and I can see a difference in the way the birds fly on it when given the same amount as compared to the smaller version. My birds use to do fine on straight wheat but lately it hasn't been enough and they have been wearing down quicker than with the larger wheat. I either have to feed them more of it or add peas or a dash of the breeder mix to it to build them back up.
Brian.
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STARFIRE
29 posts
Mar 03, 2004
6:41 PM
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Hey guys: The pellet and corn mix I use never gives me canker in the breeding loft.I take the young and put them in the kit pens at 28 days old.I usually have 25 to 40 at at time.I always give the young ones Emtril for canker and Amprol for Cociddiosis,when I take them out of the breeding loft.I don't believe in putting the young out until they are more mature.I keep them in and train them to a whistle,before I let them out.I let them sit on the roof for 5 days and then I flag them up.Usually within 2 weeks they are flying an hour or more.I feed them straight wheat
I let them eat all they want and then take away the tray.
Then I throw a handful for them to snack on the next day.
After about a month I can get them down to a tblsp. per bird.I dont know what the protien is in the pellets and I dont care.I think people worry too much about the nutritional value of the feed they are using.Did you ever see an unhealthy street pigeon?They sure don't get the feed that any pigeon guy feeds his birds.So that means to me they don't need a lot to survive on. I have to starve my birds to keep them from flying out of sight and too long.If they go out of sight I cut their feed back till they dont .Simple. Same for flying too long.I read about giving a cup of feed to the kit of 20.Thats way too much for my birds.When mine are 2-3 months old I would be feeding a little more than a half a measuring cup for 30 birds.That keeps them flying about an hour.I think everybody worries about breaking them down for a fly .I don't do anything for competition.If They are working good ,why would you want to break them down and get disqualified?I just keep mine in 1 day before the fly and feed the the same as always.My birds are all deep so if I keep them in more than 1 day Quite a few will hit when they go out.Mine take off from the ground out the door.The Wheat in Ontario is going for $10.00 a 55 lb. bag.The mixes they have cost too much and are unneccesary for your birds.Thats how I see it anyways.And I don't think corn causes canker either.
Last Edited by STARFIRE on Mar 03, 2004 6:42 PM
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Bluesman
17 posts
Mar 04, 2004
2:11 AM
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There is some really good post here to ponder over.As someone else said here it is good to have you all to talk to.If it wasn,t for Innernet I would still be lookin at barn pigeons.Starfire you asked if we had ever seen an unhealthy street pigeon.Has anyone watched a street,barn,feral pigeon long enough to see what all they eat.Turn me loose in the wild and I will survive also.Pen me up and put me thru what we put these birds thru and see what would happen.I admit I am one that tends to overfeed.I cut back on the feed and then I think they are nothing but feathers and start feeding them more again.Starfire I like your way of doing things.Plain & Simple.You said you treat the young for canker around 28 days.How often do you treat your young & Breeders after that for Canker.Maybe it would be cheaper to treat for canker than pay the high price of grain.I have got to find an alternative or reduce my Loft of birds.The high price of having grain shipped in is killing me.The pellet I feed is a very good pellet(Made by Agway) at a reasonable price.Less than half of what the grain is per 50#.On the other hand I don,t want to buy a bunch of cracked corn and start mixing with pellets and find a bunch of sick or dead birds either.I talked with James Turner yesterday and he assured me there was no big secret to feeding the rollers we fly.Simply Milo & Wheat.Adjust the mix according to what the birds are doing.We never got into discussing what to feed the Breeders & their young.This is where my concern is.All we have around local is corn & wheat.Thanks,David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Mar 04, 2004 2:20 AM
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Flying Roller
12 posts
Mar 04, 2004
8:27 AM
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In winter all my birds want is whole corn, and they leave the rest, so all I feed them is whole corn. I guess it's the BTUs they're looking for.But as the weather warms up, I usually go to a premix.
I found it easy to feed my kit birds a premixed 16% grain (expensive though!!) but it was my breeders that I found annoying to feed. They picked out all the small stuff and left the corn and peas. I was afraid to force them to eat everything in case the chicks could possibly suffer in the process. So I decided to try pellets. They really didn't like that either so I went back to the commercial mix. BUT!! I refuse to do that this year (too expensive!) and want to do it right this time. I like your idea of wheat only for the kit birds and supplement some protein (peas?) from time to time. I will try the turkey grower as mentioned for the breeders. Should I mix wheat and milo in with it as well or just wheat?
Terry
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Anonymous
Guest
Mar 04, 2004
5:14 PM
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For the breeders, hopper feeding the turkey grower sounds good. Are you able to find flax or black rape seed or safflower in your area? I would suggest feeding 5%-10% each of those grains would be more benificial than wheat. Once the ybs start to stand up you should start to feed them in the nest boxes also. They catch on fast and makes weaning a lot easier.
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STARFIRE
31 posts
Mar 04, 2004
5:44 PM
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Hey Guys :Feeding pellets is the best thing you can do for the young birds .If you don't like mixing it with corn use something else.Or just feed them straight.I found that if you feed straight pellets,after a couple of weeks they get used to them and dont mess so much.You say they don't like them?Pigeons love everything if they are hungry.If they don't eat them at first leave the pellets till they do .They will feed their young first and if they dont like them the old ones will go hungry.Thats the reason to feed only one thing.They have no choice but to eat what you give them.If they don't eat they are fed too much.Another thing guys don't think about when it comes to feeding flyers is the small seeds in the good mixes makes them skyout.All they need is wheat and a bit of milo once in a while.Inthe fall if you want to give them something for the moult,give them flax seed.It's very oily and will help them molt faster.Your young birds should come in after a fly in less than 3 minutes or they are fed too much.I can't see spending all the money on the mixes when it is unnecesary.
Remember everything a pigeon needs is in the pellets.Oh yes
I only treat the young ones once for canker and coccidiosis
when I put them in the flycoops.I think I read somewhere they dont sell EMTRYL for canker in the states.
Last Edited by STARFIRE on Mar 04, 2004 5:57 PM
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viper
9 posts
Mar 04, 2004
6:26 PM
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I feed the turkey grower to breeders only in front of them all the time but covered to keep it from getting soiled.It takes a couple days then they really go after it.I start to mix wheat with it when the babys are weaned.When breeding is over they go back on wheat barley and scatch at different times.The pellets are alot cheaper than the mix.
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Mar 04, 2004
8:55 PM
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here's my thoughts on this,I agree with starfire in thats it's hard to go wrong with pellets as far as raising healthy strong youngsters and I have used pellets season after season myself,but here's another thought that myself and a buddy in Mich. was kicking around a while back,also it's been a topic in other forums before and that is do we really want "to strong" of youngsters(of coarse you dont want weak youngsters either) and how does it affect the time frame for comining into the roll,I think that if you are breeding alot of heat then you do want them weaning off stronger than normal,where as other families don't throw a lot of heat,what I'm getting at here is that not all families are the same,same with wheat,wheat works well with my birds although I do like the youngbirds to get ample (not to much) but ample protein until they 6 mo. old or so,but they are also getting many days of strait wheat before they get a boost in the protien,but on the other hand I was talking to my buddy Bobby Bradley out of Tenn. who's an accomplished flier on a national leval,Bobby flies a much hotter family than I do and on wheat they do a lot of bouncing on him,in other words his birds need the added protein or it wiggs them,his family and mine "won't manage together as under my mangement his birds would be bouncing off of the roof and my birds under his management would become homers,you have to figure out what works for your particular family of birds,also you need to consider the conditions as it was mentioned add some oil seeds for the moult but for those in extream climates they need the fat in the winter,also keep in mind that not all wheats are equal as far as qaulity and nutriants I was told that Monty Nieble fed wheat that was for human consumption,in other words high qaulity including higher in protien,Canada produces some of the highest qaulity wheat there is(so I'm told)where many of us only wish that we could get good wheat on a consistant basis,whats everyones thoughts here ?
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STARFIRE
32 posts
Mar 05, 2004
7:04 PM
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Hey Guys; I will agree with Scott about the different familys needing different feed and handling.But I don't think a bird can be too strong.When a bird is cranking out 30-40 ft rolls once or twice a minute for 20 minutes it has to be strong.I have seen kits that spin themselves silly and either get disqualified or stop rolling after ten minutes.Thats those Barrat or Brown birds.To me a bird that
rolls with too much frequency does not have a good tight spin,or a lot of control.As far as when birds come into the spin,thats all heredity in the family.If you think your birds will spin earlier by flying them 2 or 3 times a day you are just fooling yourself.All familys are different,but the one thing they all have in common is when they will start to spin.If you have a family that comes into the spin at 9 months,thats when they will spin.Guys that believe this, fly them twice a day and see some birds coming in earlier than others so they believe the flying has something to do with it .But what they don't think of is this.Most guys fly more than one family in their lofts.So they not only have different familys, but cosses between these different familys.This will certainly inpact on the time when the birds come into the spin.So if a guy is flying a family that doesn't come into the roll early maybe he's crossing in a family that comes in earlier than his other family.So when he flys them twice a day he thinks thats whats making the birds spin earlier.My birds come into the spin early .and the reason for this is that I would never breed a late developing bird.Ever since I made this family(36years)I have only bred birds that come into the spin in the first flying season.That sounds like a year ,but it is not.I start to fly the young in May and I lock them down in early November.Thats six months,Maybe a few weeks more.In that time I can have the first and nest spinning 30 ft by July and the second nest at the end of September.I never kept a holdover kit for 25 years.I would kill all the birds that didn't spin when I locked them down in November.I only competed with young birds.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
32 posts
Mar 05, 2004
9:24 PM
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I think that most experienced pigeon breeders will acknowledge that pellets provide the utmost in nutrition and raise the healthiest youngsters. I don't use them because they are so messy, in that the droppings are very loose and it can be quite a bit more messy, especially in individual breeding compartments. I developed a mix of feed for myself a few years ago both for breeding and conditioning my show birds. Leech Grain & Milling mixed it for me and after some tuning it works great. Lots of small seeds, cut the corn percentage down to 25 percent of what you would get with a 16 percent mix and replaced all of the peas with smaller Austrian peas. This has resulted in youngsters that wean out looking really good and strong. When I get a group together in the kit box I keep them on the mix until I see them hanging out in the fly pen. Then I put them on straight wheat and begin the feeding routine to get their attention. They stay on wheat with some mix added once or twice a week until the roll comes in. I don't think that flying the youngsters multiple times a day is a good thing. I believe they will come into the roll when it is their time to do so. The bad part I found about flying them routinely, sometimes several times a day was that they got too strong and as they got older became harder to control. Once a day seems to work out fine for me. Once they start flipping and stringing together some fives, I switch to every other day and amazingly the roll seems to come in much faster. I can't prove this, but that is what it seems. I too have several different families I am toying with and it is hard to keep the right formula together for the diffences in the families. Some of them are similar so it is somewhat easy as long as I handle some of them and watch their eating habits. I raised a dozen or so youngsters off a pair of birds a friend of me insisted I try. They are loaded with roll and once the roll came in, living on wheat just about killed them. They need the custom stuff otherwise they are just out of control. Hell today I had to park three of them in the recoperation pen with swollen eyes. I think I am done with those birds...LOL. I prefer birds I can build up then cut back to tune them in right for comp day rather than ones I have to fly everyday and feed them twice as much to hope they can stay in the air. My best performance out of my older teams is to only fly them a few times a week and alternate their feed types. Those other birds that are bouncing will all be dead soon if I keep them on that pattern. I'm starting to think that if they can't be based on a wheat diet, I don't think they are the family of birds I want to fly.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Mar 05, 2004 9:29 PM
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Mar 05, 2004
10:54 PM
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Some good posts here,Like I said Stan it was just a thought and something to kick around and the more I thought about it the less sence that it made to me also,I agree with you on the over active kits,they just don't seem wrap it up as tight or with the speed as well,Brian I'm with you I like the type of bird that you tune in,I also like a bird where I can shut the roll down on,for example I just added "8" 03 birds to thirteen oldbirds and right now I want these birds flying long and hard to become a team and learn thier pecking order within the team and the only thing that will accomplish that is fly time and the more the better at this point,it's just another tool for me,as far as birds coming into the roll "my" best tend to come in at around 6-8 mo.some will come in earlier but many times they just don't seem to have the mental or physicle strength to handle it and many of the very early devolpers tend to bite the dust later on,it's kind of odd though as many of these young developers tend to bite the dust much later say at 9-12 mo of age,the one's that come in at the 6-8 mo. seem to fall apart right away if they are going to at all,keep in mind that I'm talking about the caractistics of "my" birds.
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