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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive > performance standard evolved?
performance standard evolved?


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wishiwon2
152 posts
Feb 19, 2009
9:37 PM
Its been a gloomy, foggy day so Ive had lots of time to read and ponder. In reading some archival posts, I saw alot of discussions on kit comp vs individual comp . It made me wonder this;

Has the standard of performance or the "ideal" changed for our rollers?

Once upon a time the standard was described something like this;

"A Birmingham Roller is a pigeon of breathtaking and exquisite performance, turning over rapidly a succession of backward somersaults while descending toward earth in an unbroken sequence like a spinning ball. ... one whose merits are measured and valued strictly upon the rapidity of its performance."

There is no mention of kitting or concert performances, and yet nearly all competiton (which is a measuring stick) requires a kitting element. In WC and NBRC flys both 11 bird and 1-2-3 scoring systems, there is a penalty for nonkitting. Im not from there, but understand that in England, scoring systems award points for kitting. Along with kitting comes concert performance.

And yet whenever someone quotes a standard for the breed, it is always about the individual performer. I propose that we reconsider our definition of "true Birmingham" to include not only individual descriptions, but include behaviors with kitmates. It requires a paradigm shift and adds a variation to breeding stock selection.

I know alot of you all are already doing the above. Selecting for breed stock with an eye towards how it behaves in a kit as well as how it rolls as individual, (speed, style, depth and frequency). Others still claim to be pursuing the original standard. I think an evolved standard can include all the merits of the individual performer and ask for more, specifically kit team work.

Has our standard changed? If you think not, then why do all the major events require something not included in past descriptions of the "ideal"? Tony identified a business principle that applies here, "that which gets monitored, gets done." We definately monitor kit work and I believe we do it in large part because of pressures applied by competative measurements.

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Jon

"had fun, wish i won 2"
If it were easy, everybody would do it ...
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3095 posts
Feb 19, 2009
9:58 PM
Jon, OMG, I think I found my pigeon soul-mate! Great post, now get ready for your beating! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
winwardrollers
146 posts
Feb 19, 2009
10:55 PM
Jon
Very very good post.
You stated.. "I think an evolved standard can include all the merits of the individual performer and ask for more, specifically kit team work."
I am one that has seen progress in our area of comp rollers over time. Some would say that you didn't have very good rollers to start with to that statement..,but that is not the case.
514 your famous hen..there has been many..many..many 514's caliber birds breed since 1953.
More pigeons, better information and ways to spread it faster..improvement in general has come with passing of time.
Kit team work birds... only makes better.. all around.. rollers and I am all for it.
bwinward

Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2009 10:57 PM
3757
1183 posts
Feb 20, 2009
3:47 AM
(Pensom 1945) "Lewis Wright says that the true Birmingham Roller turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball, this sentence provides an excellent standard for the performance of a Birmingham roller. During my experience, I have always found a total ignorance regarding this standard, yet it is quite plain in its interpretation."

The birmingham roller has always had to kit. A bird that does not kit is a cull. Bill Pensom and all of the old timers understood this and thought is was common knowledge. Individual performance is what a pigeon is evaluated on in regards to the performance aspect only. There are other aspects that are used to evaluate a future breeder but his or hers performance is evaluated on his or hers individual merit. When you stock a potential breeder do breeders say I am going to stock this kit? Or do they evaluate birds on individual merit based on what it did in a kit? Of course they do not stock kits but individual birds based on the total aspect of what that pigeon did in a kit and individual performance has to be evaluated.

Last Edited by on Feb 20, 2009 5:47 AM
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3100 posts
Feb 20, 2009
6:07 AM
Hey LaRon, DITTOS!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3103 posts
Feb 20, 2009
6:16 AM
Hey LaRon, I would like to call you next week and discuss the Roller Pigeon Digest and the next issue, will you be available? Thanks
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
pat66
295 posts
Feb 20, 2009
6:25 AM
Now THAT would be an issue I would be looking for!
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Pat
3757
1184 posts
Feb 20, 2009
6:44 AM
Tony - Yes i will be available and if I miss your call I will return it asap.
DeepSpinLofts
1170 posts
Feb 20, 2009
6:48 AM
Good morning LaRon.

How are your family of birds doing?

Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
winwardrollers
148 posts
Feb 20, 2009
7:08 AM
Laron
Has the performance of the rollers increased.
Has everything remained the same regarding rollers, or were the rollers better back in Pensoms day than to day? Just looking for your opinion.
bwinward

Last Edited by on Feb 20, 2009 7:41 AM
pigeon pete
162 posts
Feb 20, 2009
7:29 AM
I think the description of what makes a Birmingham roller hasn't changed, and it would be a shame to say a mans birds are not rollers because they don't kit. He may have birds closer to the original standard than yours, but he may value the individual performance and have no interest in kit flying.
What next? Do they have to be a certain colour?
They have to roll at least once a minute?
They have to fly at a certain height?
They mustn't roll from the back of the kit?
These are all personal preferences as is kitting.
Yes I know we, all around the world, breed for kitting and other attributes such as simultaneous performance , but if a guy wants to fly a Birmingham roller, but just fly it to watch the roll, and it rolls to the standard why should we, the majority turn to him and say thay his birds are no longer Birmingham rollers.
The standard has always been a guide for me, and I also have a performance standard in mind, which has to evolve over the years as flying rules change with the fashion of the day, but the central thing that makes our Birds BR's is that old Description.
Pete
winwardrollers
149 posts
Feb 20, 2009
8:23 AM
In regarding the description of what makes a Birmingham roller.
Now we have Laron saying.."yet it is quite plain in its interpretation.
The birmingham roller has always had to kit."
Kitting is the standard.

Then Later Pete.. Stating.." personal preferences as is kitting"
Kitting is a preferance.

I can see color, frequency, fly height as preferance but kitting..they have to kit..it a big part of great birds in by book.
bwinward
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3105 posts
Feb 20, 2009
8:38 AM
Hey bwinward, I don't think anyone means to make it sound as though kitting is not a valuable trait, a bird meeting the aerial standard that kits is more valuable than one that doesn't. But a roller meeting the aerial standard who breaks from the kit or doesn't kit is more valuable than say a tumbler that kits as tight as possible when it comes to the standard.

However, for those fanciers for whom competition defines the purpose of the Birmingham Roller, kitting takes precedence over this bird that meets the aerial standard but doesn't kit. My opinion is that birds meeting the aerial standard AND kit well are even better still.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria

Last Edited by on Feb 20, 2009 8:38 AM
3757
1186 posts
Feb 20, 2009
8:54 AM
Wishiwon2 - Here is something no one wants to discuss and think about this deeply. Do the rules determine the future of the selection process? I think is does for most but not for all. Now, if the rules change to something drastic like flying for 3 hours how that does affect your breeding selection? Everyone and their mom is going to say that will never happen etc etc. But if you think about what I am saying it will make a lot of sense. The standard remains the same for me!
Scott
1762 posts
Feb 20, 2009
9:47 AM
Pete, isn't what you wrote below just the nature of the breed ? there is a reason that birds don't kit and it has to do with the roll and the mental (or lack of) state of the bird

(Yes I know we, all around the world, breed for kitting and other attributes such as simultaneous performance)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
j .wanless
660 posts
Feb 20, 2009
11:02 AM
hi all
the aim of the brmghm roller is to breed for the near perfect roller as an individual.but to work around that + add to the indvidual + try + get a whole kit of those individuals working as a team .we still want what the old timers talk about .but now i think we have improved so much that we can now put whole kits of these rollers together.
nicksiders
3265 posts
Feb 20, 2009
11:27 AM
I have been around these birds for more than 50 years and kitting has always been desired by all. Fifty years ago there were just a few birds in kits that I witnessed that could perform as you described. Now, there are those who can put up a kit in which all the birds can roll. It is not that they seek simontanious performance, but because of the increased number of good performers those type of breaks are a result of it.

Just think of the mess you would witness in the air if that did not happen. Those who don't understand this have probably not got to a position in your breeding that you have that many birds capable of this kind performance.

The better we get in cultivating the described performance the more we have to evolve to witness it and to maintain it.
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Just My Take On Things

Nick Siders

Last Edited by on Feb 20, 2009 11:30 AM
winwardrollers
151 posts
Feb 20, 2009
11:52 AM
Tony
You stated.."But a roller meeting the aerial standard who breaks from the kit or doesn't kit is more valuable than say a tumbler that kits as tight as possible when it comes to the standard."

Both birds are culls
bwinward
j .wanless
661 posts
Feb 20, 2009
11:52 AM
hi all
nick siders i couldnt agree with you more spot on.
wishiwon2
153 posts
Feb 20, 2009
3:33 PM
I see that most of those who have replied understood what I was asking. I am not suggesting that an outstanding individual roller is evaluated by any less strict of a criteria, in fact the opposite. I believe a superior bird is a superior bird, we cannot improve very much on the superior individual in performance areas as speed style etc. We can expect it to work as a member of a team, which is something never mentioned in the "standard" for an outstanding birmingham.

I realize that its acknowledged that "birmingham roller has always had to kit" -Laron, but we so often overlook that aspect in our description of the 'ideal' spinner. We want to note how fast it rolls or how tightly it balls up or shows the hole ... on and on about the individual. We seldom mention that it always rolls with its team mates, it flies in the center of the kit, if the kit is hot or cold it adjusts its performance to fit the nature of the team that day. In my opinion this is an addition to the standard, an evolution of what we expect. It still "turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball" we just expect it to do that along with the other members of its kit.
--------
Jon

"had fun, wish i won 2"
If it were easy, everybody would do it ...
wishiwon2
154 posts
Feb 20, 2009
3:57 PM
Laron, yes I have thought about it quite a bit, "Do the rules determine the future of the selection process?" and yes, I think it does shape our expectations. For the case in question, I believe it to be an improvement on the standard or what we expect. Becasue of the rules we expect a bird to perform with a kit, and that is an added strength. We still want it perform with all the qualities we have always demanded, just that perhaps now we expect something more in addition.

Pete, Im not suggesting that we dont recognize anyones bird as a birmingham because it does this or doesnt do that. "why should we, the majority turn to him and say thay his birds are no longer Birmingham rollers." I am just suggesting that we as a whole of fanciers of birminghams maybe ought to expect something a little more than individual performance from our birds, and if so then we ought to include it in our description of the 'ideal'.

Nick, I kind of disagree on this, "It is not that they seek simontanious performance, but because of the increased number of good performers those type of breaks are a result of it." I believe we as breeders in pursuit of the ideal birmingham ought to do exactly that, to select for birds that roll meeting the individual performer standard and do it in concert with its team mates. I think it is a trait we should learn to identify and select for, just like rolling with high velocity. A bird that persists in rolling as an individual independant from what its kitmates do, posseses a fault, regardless of the qaulity of the roll. Not saying that its not a great roller just that our expectation should be expanded to include kitwork as description of the ideal.

Tony said, "However, for those fanciers for whom competition defines the purpose of the Birmingham Roller, kitting takes precedence over this bird that meets the aerial standard but doesn't kit. My opinion is that birds meeting the aerial standard AND kit well are even better still." Tony, I am suggesting that the 'aerial standard' ought to include kitwork. Therefore, if it doesnt kit, it doesnt meet the 'aerial standard'. Hence I asked, has the standard evolved?

I understand that superior rollers are never common. I do think however that rollers of high quality are found in greater abundance today than in years past. I am suggesting that as we accomplish breeding more topnotch spinners, we should expect a bit more in the future from what we are doing now. I say this as a combined group of birmingham breeders, as I know that some guys are already doing it.

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Jon

"had fun, wish i won 2"
If it were easy, everybody would do it ...

Last Edited by on Feb 20, 2009 4:03 PM
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3107 posts
Feb 20, 2009
8:30 PM
Hey bwinward, I am applying abstract thinking to the relationship between the two. You have to be careful what you consider a cull. For example, are all your birds the "perfect" Birmingham Roller specimens? I think I can safely say they are not, but I will assume they are quality birds.

Now, to apply your own logic you used to the 2 birds in my example above for your own birds: All Your Birds Have To Be Culls. Why? Because they don't meet the aerial standard plus any additional requirements you placed on them. Weird ain't it?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria

Last Edited by on Feb 20, 2009 8:31 PM
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3108 posts
Feb 20, 2009
8:50 PM
Jon Said:
"...Hence I asked, has the standard evolved"?

Jon, I am having a problem with your use of the word "evolved". The word "evolve" implies a naturalistic jump forward toward an improvement. I think "Intelligent Design" would be a better way to say that competition flyers established rules and boundaries to determine how points can be scored in comps.

This train of thought implies that only competition flyers have the innate ability to determine what the aerial standard should or should not be. I can see no reason to buy into that idea.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
wishiwon2
155 posts
Feb 20, 2009
10:25 PM
Tony,
I dont want to get hung up on semantics. But I do see it as an improvement. Evolve means to change, to adapt to the environmental requirements. We create that environment by artificial selection.

I think of it like this; depth independant of any other trait (freq., velocity, whatever) is fairly easy to breed for. Frequency independant of any other trait is easy to breed for. Velocity, independantly, a little more difficult but as a single trait, not as hard as breeding birds that are both fast and deep or fast and frequent or fast, frequent and deep. I believe fast frequent and deep with control is something all of us want more of, right? What I am saying, that it is an improvement if we can breed birds that are fast, frequent, deep AND work together with a kit. Another level of difficulty and I think another level of desirability, making it a superior goal. So if our standard has evolved some to include kitwork as a part of the standard, I see it as a natural move forward. We are talking standard here (goal, epitome), which if bred towards will cause an adaptation within our birds, something that is already going on. It doesnt seem rational that anyone would choose a bird that rolls excellent by itself over one that rolls excellent with its kitmates.

I dont think that competiton flyers are trying to determine what the aerial standard should be. However, I dont know of any other evaluation system that is as globaly applied to measure our birds by. Thats what competition does, measures our birds, be it a 20 bird kit competition, 11 bird or a 30 pt individual fly. Im not saying that its better or worse, but it is what is done, on a global scale, kit competition is THE measuring stick for the hobby as a whole. If you think its not, tell me what is, and how is it measured?

Sure everyone makes thier own choices at thier own lofts as to what they consider great. But as a whole, we are asking for an additional element from our breeding. I realize there are alot of guys who dont compete and that they raise some terrific birds. I believe competition provides us a motivating force to improve what we have or are raising. Not everyone needs that motivation but I believe most do. And no I dont think it is breeding just to score more points or to win a title. I think it is an effort to breed a better roller.

Im not trying to make an arguement for competiton flying. Im just saying that it seems that is what our rollers are measured by. And because of that, I wonder if we have adapted our standard accordingly.

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Jon

"had fun, wish i won 2"
If it were easy, everybody would do it ...
3757
1187 posts
Feb 20, 2009
11:41 PM
WishIwon2 - You are the first person that I have read a statement regarding competing to ever be inclusive of all forms of competition and label it competition. Most have been skewed to the majority fly's as World cup and fall fly but if you include everyone that competes no matter what that broadens the spectrum even for those competitors whose systems we may not know about and club competitions. Now, your definition of competition is not what the majority feels competing is. I must say to you I commend you on a broader true definition. When I competed 30 point system with Arnold Jackson, Richard Luna, Garry Morris etc I had the best time of my life. There is a guy who I have known for 30 years who made erroneous statements about so and so does not compete. It was an outright lie as the individual competes in his club. What he should have said, but due to his ignorance he did not, is that he does compete in his club but not in the world cup and fall fly. Do you see how the two statements differ? Again, even though we do not agree on everything I commend you to be an open minded thinker and can have an intelligent conversation without argument.

Also, even if a guy sends birds to the California Classic he or she is competing his birds against others. Now, most do not understand the true definition of competition but I am glad you have been inclusive to any form of competing.
"an occasion on which a winner is selected from among two or more contestants "

Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2009 5:37 AM
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3111 posts
Feb 21, 2009
6:11 AM
Hey Jon, I really think we have similar views. However, it could seem as though rules applied to competition can be arbitrary, hence, we learn that points are awarded for kitting in the UK whereas here in the USA points are not. Is one method better than the other? Just a rhetorical question.

I personally think it would be appropriate if points where awarded for kitting - since points are lost when there are multiple "out" birds and the rest of the birds are still breaking. JMO
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
viper
56 posts
Feb 21, 2009
7:59 AM
If you breed from a bird that don't kit is that trait being passed on?I think yes same as roll down or stiff or tumbler would be passed on.I think its mental and the bird is lacking it.I'm a comp guy so I look at kitting close same as roll.I would also rather watch a kit than birds that are all over the sky.Blake
nicksiders
3266 posts
Feb 21, 2009
10:22 AM
Kitting is a part of the quality coifficient in the US. Too many out birds which is related to kitting affects the score in a large way.
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Just My Take On Things

Nick Siders
winwardrollers
152 posts
Feb 21, 2009
3:58 PM
Tony
Your post #3107 makes no sence to me. We must be misunderstanding each other.

Here is the short of it..if a bird doesn't kit no matter how great it rolls it is missing some of it's ABC's..physical..mental...etc.
There's birds to choose from that roll & kit..plenty to choose from.
My question is now that you raised it ..is what do you do with rollers that roll and don't kit, Tony?
Bwinward
Scott
1763 posts
Feb 21, 2009
10:33 PM
Hard roll and kitting go hand in hand, a bird that doesn't kit is a bird that can't handle hard roll due to being mentaly weak.
Three things are likely to happen with such a bird, One it gets a handle on the roll and starts kitting.
Two, it just refuses to fly, three it just totaly falls apart , it is rare that such a bird will stay the same.
The World cup competition is the standard bearer for the breed,like it or not it sets the standard , and it does so on an organized scale accross four continents and nine countries, including the birth place of the breed itself.
Competition pushes people to excel up and beyond in what ever it is,whether it be archery, or even flying Birmingham Rollers,that is a fact, it is also what seperates the talkers from the doers,that is also a fact.
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Just my Opinion
Scott

Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2009 11:13 PM
Dave Szab
236 posts
Feb 22, 2009
9:50 AM
Hey Scott,

Excellant post! Although, I'm sure it's lost on many on this list, they will never see the light. I'm beginning to think that it isn't worth the effort anymore.

Dave
JMUrbon
637 posts
Feb 22, 2009
9:51 AM
When we evaluate birds for a kit we do it on a need basis. We need a minimum of 15 birds and if we have that many great spinning great kitting birds then our job just became much easier. More than likely we dont and so we are stuck weeding through and finding not necessarily the best birds in the kit box but hopefully the best team of birds.
Now when I evaluate for stock those standards go way up. I dont stock on a need basis. I dont let a birds lineage sway me and I go through a very strick list of qualities a bird must posess in order to get in the stock loft. As you all know, not all great birds will make great stock birds but as long as youre requirements for a stock bird are high then your chances for good ones are higher also.
I also agree with Nicks earlier post. I have been flying rollers for 30 years and just as Nick stated, There have always been good birds but the number of good birds has increased at each loft. It was common to see maybe one good bird at a fliers loft. Now even the newest of breeders stand a good chance of putting some good birds in the air on any given day.
Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Dave Szab
237 posts
Feb 22, 2009
9:55 AM
Hey Nick,

The quality factor has nothing to do with kitting, it is just a measurement of the average quality of only the birds that were counted on each scoreable break.

There is no need to give points for kitting, because if there is poor kitting, there is no scoring. Breaks are only counted if the kit stays together. There is only one out bird allowed, and if I had my way, there would be NO out birds allowed.

Dave
katyroller
352 posts
Feb 22, 2009
2:36 PM
"Hard roll and kitting go hand in hand, a bird that doesn't kit is a bird that can't handle hard roll due to being mentaly weak"....Scott
My observations have been that birds who are not mentally and or physically able to handle the roll do not like to kit. Birds that kit tightly are triggered by other birds in the kit and tend to give the bigger breaks. I have seen young birds that would roll everytime a bird(s)in the kit rolled and they would wear themselves out. These birds as they aged, would start to fly on the outside edge of the kit and would eventually seperate from the kit to try to get away from the stimulous to roll. Some would go so far as to fly in the opposite direction of the kit. You could actually sense they were afraid to roll.
winwardrollers
155 posts
Feb 22, 2009
7:01 PM
Dave
It is off the subject but I can see good reasoning in having one out bird. Such as a bird hits the side kit box going out..birds is not feeling well for many reasons..roller smacks into each other in the air.
You have days off of work..your self... most all days are good but you have a few sick days out of the year that you can not predict.

My question to Tony above was.. what do you do with birds that do not kit? It sound like to me he has found value in birds that do not kit I'm just wondering what that value non kitting bird have and what he does with them. They are simply culls to me.
bwinward
TimP
162 posts
Feb 22, 2009
7:11 PM
katyroller, good post! I have noticed the same thing the stay out of the kit because there scared of the roll.
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4029 posts
May 07, 2010
3:24 PM
Brad, I was running across some old threads and see I did not respond to your question. My comment was that in the "abstract", unless any bird we decide to keep is "perfect" it is deficient in some quality or degree of quality. So where I was going with this was that unless a bird is "perfect", we are breeding and flying birds that could technically be considered culls. I am not literally saying to breed from a non-kitting bird when a properly kitting bird is available. Use the best you have...there is no other choice.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria


The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
ezeedad
1115 posts
May 10, 2010
9:55 AM
Jon,
Interesting topic and very well defined on your part..
Selecting breeding stock is influenced by what you find to be the most important. If kitting is most important, then you may not give a bird an opportunity to change. An example:
I had a bird, which like katyroller describes would not kit because every time it joined the kit it would roll.. as soon as it reached the group. So it would "shadow" the kit from above, but would clearly be aware of them, and respond to their movements. Eventually it kitted and becabe one of my best performers ever, and I never had any kitting problems from it again. I eventually bred from this hen.
I was on the verge of pulling her out of the kit, and it was a trial of my patience, but in the end I was rewarded with a superior spinner. If I had been concerned with kit competition rules at the time I would have probably stopped flying her.
I feel that I made the right choice, while I'm sure that others would not agree.
Rollers go through stages of development in their performence. Sometimes you may have to ride it out through the rough "teenage" type stage.

Paul G
fhtfire
2528 posts
May 11, 2010
6:40 PM
Oh...one more thing..Standards can be changed because of evolution of a breed. Nick..hit it on the head...50 years ago..XYZ was a good pigeon....now XYYYZZZY is a good pigeon...I honestly think Bill Pensom himself woudl shit rubber nickles if he saw the birds today perform....not only how they perform...but how many lofts have good birds and how many good birds per team.

The other thing I wanted to add is this...Some would point out like Tony did....that there is a ranking from best to worst...a non kitter tearing it up has more value then a loose crappy non kitter.....but in the overall picture..to m0st ..neither has value....a non kitter in my loft get wacked regardless of how it rolls.....a standard should be the WHOLE package...not bits and pieces of the package....if an animal is not showing the whole package...it should not be bred....the "BEST" damn near perfect animals should be bred...that meet every aspect of the standard.

How good would a field lab be if it would not fetch or listen to commands..but could jump and swim better then all the dogs...the dog is showing a fault...or MAJOR fault....major faults are culls.

Now what if a lab missed a cue every now and then..that may be a minor fault....and the animal meets every standard.....that is ok...kind of like having an awesome bird wing switch 1 out of every 50 rolls...or not the best wing position...minor faults but still breedable...why...no such thing as a perfect animal...

rock and ROLL

Paul

Last Edited by on May 11, 2010 6:41 PM
Sound Rollers
342 posts
May 12, 2010
2:48 AM
Paul, if I never compete, should a worry about proper kitting, would if my goal is "A Birmingham Roller is a pigeon of breathtaking and exquisite performance, turning over rapidly a succession of backward somersaults while descending toward earth in an unbroken sequence like a spinning ball. ... one whose merits are measured and valued strictly upon the rapidity of its performance."

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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2405 posts
May 12, 2010
5:26 AM
Paul,
Excellent post. "IF" the NBRC could develope such a "standard", do you think that you could support changes to the fly rules, that judges would be required to judge to the NBRC standard... NOT a judges "personal" standard? This would be essential...or else the standard would be useless. A standard accomplishes nothing unless the competitions are judged according to that standard, and men begin to breed toward that standard because they know what will be required. If we could agree that XYZ is the standard, and all judges understand and support that standard, personally, I can't see how it could do anything BUT contribute to the Roller fancy moving in the right direction towards better performance-based pigeons.
Personally, I support your ideas about a move for a "standard", but not all men will. Some believe that only THEY know what the standard should be.
How can we make it happen?. Like you said, it will take cahones.
Cliff

Last Edited by on May 12, 2010 9:22 AM
fhtfire
2530 posts
May 12, 2010
7:24 PM
Cliff,

The standard should really be set before the fly rules....the fly rules should be based on a standard set forth by a governing body or club...you are supposed to build rules around a standard...the rules should highlight the standard.

That is why we have the issues we do....because every individual has set there own standard....and try and manipulate the rules to meet there own standard. The only ones who are right are the ones breeding better pigeons..in my book..because they have proved that the bird can be set to a higher bar...and still perform....is it easy to get to that higher bar...It should not be......again...its easy to breed inferior animals...those are a dime a dozen...high standards....force high quality animals...if we had a standard and the rules were written for the standard...we would have no debate..because if you dont meet the standard you cant debate. Although some things are up to a judge and what they see...like depth is hard to judge...but quality and kitting is not...if you have seen quality kits.....

I am all for a standard and I would love to be in the process of making a standard....its not hard to do...most know what a top quality pigeon is....why not take a poll of the Master Fliers......and maybe a poll of the top 10 fliers in the NBRC fly the last 5 years and then ask them what they feel a top quality pigeon is...then whatever points keep coming up over and over then you set your standard around those points.

After the standard is set...then you tweak the rules to make sure the standard is upheld through competition....if people quit the club...so be it...we dont want people in the club breeding inferior pigeons.....if people choose not to compete...that is fine too they can breed to whatever standard they feel.....not to much fear of inferior birds getting into the mainstream....because most birds sold are comp birds...most birds with the most value are comp fliers....but you have some that may not compete...but if other fly there birds and compete and do well....there blood may enter the mainstream from not competing....but the blood would enter anyway...because the flier that is competiting with the non-comp family does well in comp..the birds will then have value..and the good blood is obviously good because they have showcased the birds through comp.

I myself would support a standard and have said that for many years. A standard is much needed...there is no history statement....character standard....or performance standard...from the NBRC and they are for sure a governing body or club. If they are there for the betterment of the BR they better get a standard up...because nobody knows what betterment is.

rock and ROLL

Paul
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2407 posts
May 13, 2010
6:37 AM
Paul
I agree for the most part....but I think in the USA today, the standard is being set by the NBRC/WC fly rules, though it may be "bass-ackwards". From talking to flyers who raised rollers before we had NBRC/WC fly's, before the fly rules defined the standard....... there was little agreement on a performance standard. Local club rules ruled the day.
As you say, the governing body should set the standard........ and that standard is then used in different ways within the club.

As I see it, the NBRC would define a performance standard, and the fly rules would not be changed till a later date and the members became comfortable with the new standard.

Let's define the performance standard, get it adopted and written into the by-laws and see how that goes. I feel little change will take place until the judges and flyers are all understanding and accepting the same performance standard. The problem will not be in the overall understanding, but more in the details and what is humanly possible with these birds, trying to follow the written word.
Positive change can happen if we all want it to. The NBRC is a club dedicated to "HELPING" members understand and enjoy Roller pigeons through flying and breeding these birds. Defining the performance standard is but one piece of the puzzle.
Flesh out a complete written performance standard as you would like to see the NBRC adopt and let's see how far we can take it.
Cliff


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