truword1
1 post
Dec 31, 2003
5:00 PM
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Hey Tony I just received " How to Breed Better Rollers ". I just wanted to say thanks. I haven't read much of it but l like it so far, it has all the info I was looking for. But theres one quetion I have. What do you actually call a holdover bird? Once again thanks, this web site is great. Keep up the good work and keep them rolling.
Thanks
John
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rollerpigeon
5 posts
Jan 01, 2004
3:16 PM
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Hey John, thanks for purchasing the booklet. The support is appreciated!
A “holdover” bird is a generic term for any roller that has proven itself in the air and will continue to be flown. It will have made it though the initial “culling process” of young (1 year or less) and older (1 year or more) birds.
After a period of time, perhaps 2 to 3 seasons, this “holdover” bird can then be given an opportunity to produce a few rounds of youngsters.
If these new offspring are then able to maintain or improve upon the Primary Traits described in “How To Breed Better Rollers”, they too are continually flown until needed for breeding whereupon they are given the same chance to maintain or improve the Primary Traits as its parents.
FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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rollerpigeon
20 posts
Jan 22, 2004
10:57 PM
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Hey John,
Just checking the progress on the book. If you have any questions or comments, let me know.
By the way, holdover birds are also put into the breeding loft and can be put back into the kit after a few rounds. I do this fairly often.
The current picture on the home page shows a cock that I have flown and bred from and flown again, I am seriously thinking of making it a permanent breeder.
Going from "holdover" to "proven stock bird" because his offspring tear it up in the kit. Why chance losing it??
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Bluesman
5 posts
Feb 23, 2004
4:54 AM
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Hi Tony.You brought up something here I have been trying to get info on for some time.What is a good way to get birds that you have bred from back into a kit box ready for flying.I have several that I have got youngsters from and would like to put them back out to fly.I have tried several times but they just want to go sit on Breeding Loft.Several have said they do this so I am sure I am not doing something right.Thanks for any info.
David Strait
Mountain View Lofts
Where Color is a Plus but Roll is a Must
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
57 posts
Feb 25, 2004
9:05 PM
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David, after I select the breeders that will fly again, I put them in a kit box with several conditioned kit birds or start them off by themselves.
In either case, before I let them out for the first time, I make sure they are good and hungry. I open the door and let them come out on their own. Some take right to the air along with the kit birds that I put them with. The ones that stay in I chase out. Some will stay up, a few will circle a few times and land.
I feel that by keeping them hungry it seems to agitate them and they just don't want to linger around on the loft roof.
For the most part they seem to want to fly. Within a couple days they are usually kitting well.
Within a couple weeks they start working as a team again and they look like they were never held in.
I also want to mention to be careful about flying any bird you do not want to lose if it has proven itself as a good breeder.
I have a specific male bird that produces very nice tight spinning offspring and I am looking forward to flying him again...but I am just not sure this year. I like everything about him and would hate to lose him to raptors or other circumstances.
(remember, I think if they are on the hungry side, they will be too agitated to want to sit on the roof. Don't worry about coaxing them up if that is what it takes)
This is what I do and it works for me. Tony
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STARFIRE
34 posts
Mar 10, 2004
2:34 PM
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hey Tony
You were saying you have a good bird you are wondering if you should stock him because he produces good young.You should stock that pair and if they are giving you good young you should keep them together.If the birds are producing as good or better than their parents.Lock them up and keep them producing and never let them out again.You can breed b/s from that pair and see if they can withstand
close inbreeding .I find the birds get faster from in breeding like this.You can breed 10years or more from this pair.I never let my stockbirds out.Thats why I have 50 pair of Quality deep birds to breed from if I want.You should try to make a family out of a pair like that.
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Flying Roller
13 posts
Mar 10, 2004
3:30 PM
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Hey Tony
as a new guy, reading all this stuff about rollers but never having had the chance to see them in action, I found it difficult to know what to look for. The guy I bought my Pensom Baldys from couldn't let his kit out due to a hawk trio circling above, but he assured me that they would roll.
After breeding some young out of them I started flying them but lost them all to coons that summer, so I started over last year. Over the summer, I had a good kit of about 18 birds flying with only 3 of them rolling (10-15ft?) and thought I got screwed. But then I hear that you have to give your birds more time to develope, that it could take up to a year (depending on the strain).
I'd like to go back to the guys place to see his birds fly but it's a 3hr drive and I haven't had the chance (got 5 kids!)
I guess my questions are, how long should it take for the roll to develop and is it possible for you to add some of your Rubies performing on video? This may seem a little weird, but I feel it would help the newbies in the sport. Stan Arnold did this on his website and I really appreciated that.
Anyhow, just a suggestion, I know it's alot of work!! I appreciate this site, I log in daily.
Terry
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
72 posts
Mar 12, 2004
6:12 AM
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Hi Terry,
What I would do is check back with the guy you acquired your birds from and ask him how long it takes for a regularly trained kit of his birds to develop. I would ask what could you expect the average roll depth to be, ask about velocity, ask about the style.
I would want to know first if the performance Primary Traits are in the family gene pool and how developed they are. All your Loft Systems may be in place but the family gene pool may represent the constraint to performance.
The 3 that are rolling now for you, the same questions about roll depth, velocity and style. In addition, how often are you flying? How many minutes are they flying? If they are not rolling do they at least kit? Are they fast flyers? Are they kept in a darkened kit box? What are you feeding them?
I would want to know next if my care and training were in-adequate as these too can contribute to constraints in your Loft System.
You can only depend on the breeder you purchased your birds from to tell when his strain develops the roll. I would ask him his training methods (assuming they work) and follow them if he tells you he gets different (better) results from you.
As the amount of time you will invest in the sport will be alot, I know its difficult, but I would do my best to watch the breeders kit/s perform and keeping the Primary Traits uppermost in my mind as I watched his birds fly and in the loft.
Personally I like the action I get from my young birds in the 5 to 6 month age range as well as watch as they learn to perform as a group. Very exciting and satisfying to see a kit learning to break together.
Tip: I find the best males have a discernable gap between where the keel bone end and the vent bones(females have this for egg laying). Check this on them. Let me know what you find.
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Flying Roller
14 posts
Mar 12, 2004
8:02 PM
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I started flying my first kit last summer in June, by August I had 3 that really rolled, while the others just kitted real tight - I mean real tight! And they flew really high too, too high, so I cut back the feed a bit. I was feeding them 16% pigeon mix and flying them on average 1xday as long as the flying rats weren't around to attack the kit. I had them in a darkened kitbox 4ft high & 4ft wide by 2ft deep. Now I only have three kitbirds left and 8 Adult pairs to breed from this year. In other words, I'm starting all over again for the 3rd year in a row.
In terms of style & depth and all, I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to look for yet, all I know is that 3 of em rolled 10-15ft (at about 4 months old) then the worst happened. A light snowfall fell one night and I let the birds out the next morning, and you know the rest of the story, the whole kit disappeared except for the three that rolled (go figure) and another non performing younger bird that came back - the rest didn't (sniff sniff)
I'll give the old guy I bought em from a call and ask him the questions you asked me in your previous post and I'll try and pry more info. He did say that I should get Pensom's Roller book (which I did) and do everything the book said (which he has done since he visited Pensom in the 60's)His lofts and everything come from the diagrams in his book.
Anyhow, I'll keep you posted.
Terry
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
85 posts
Mar 24, 2004
10:14 PM
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StarFire, as I am putting a kit together for an upcoming competition, I actually took out the proven father and daughter and put them in the kit box. As I walked back to my holding pens, to get some more, I stopped and said "NAWWW". I went back to the kit box, pulled them out and put them together in a breeding compartment.
I will get a few young from this father/daughter pairing and then put the father and original mother back together and breed them together from now on.
You mentioned making a family out of this pair, well this is exactly what I intend to do. I was thinking, if my loft was on fire, which ones would I grab? This pair comes to mind. LOL FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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