Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2330 posts
Apr 08, 2008
12:29 PM
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I see so many pictures of birds guys have bred or pictures of what they bought from this guy or that guy...I am tired of the SHOW, now TELL me something about what you are doing with your flock of rollers.
How many are actually working on developing their rollers into their own family?
1: At what point are you taking them from to where you are taking them to?
2: How will you get there?
3: What do like like best about your birds, what do you like least?
Please don't tell me what family you have, just tell me about YOUR birds. Have you gotten far enough along to see past the pedigree or the names on the ped?
Are you seeing a hints that your breeding plans and goals are working? Describe for me please.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Ragin Rollers
43 posts
Apr 08, 2008
2:24 PM
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Hey Tony,
IAm still searching for that foundation COCK, This year i have 35 banded so far. This is my first year in the real roller game, took first place in Arizona region 7-B.2008
My goal is to breed that foundation COCK breed him to my top hens, Then line breed in to different direction one of the COCK Also one off the HEN. Then down the line when i want to cross into my line i have already a related line to cross too, then when i find that click pair i will mate them for life, i would also like to breed only out 7or8 click pairs( yea right ) but thats the goal for now, the plan is to build my own famliy of roller, one for comp that are 15 to 25 footers. then breed for that true Biringham roller which is a amazing site...
Thanks Russ
Ragin Rollers......
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Missouri-Flyer
1575 posts
Apr 08, 2008
2:38 PM
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Tony,
Here is my game plan, and one that I intend to stick to:
First off, you know where my birds came from, and that nothing else has been brought in...I have bred almost every stock hen to a different stock cock to see where the goods are with what matings. This being my 5th year back into this hobby, I am seeing who is producing what.
I have if you will, 2 seperate lines going within 1, if that makes sense. The original Spike birds I received I bred and flew hard, and I mean hard, flying atleast 6 days a week, year round, weather permitting, and twice daily for the youngsters...I picked the best of what I raised, and bred back to the parents on a few occasions, seeing great results...
I then have a pair of Bill Roy birds that I am raising in Indie pens. I plan to then fly the heck out of those, and pick the best from the air..My plan with this side family is to find out what they will do alone,before crossing them into my others, if need be..I will fly out the young from this mating, and pick the best hen and cock from the air, and stick back to the parents. This will be the start of what I will consider "my family", with credit to Bill.
This year I have a nice kit of early "jan-feb 07" birds that I will be flying in the WC, Club, and FF this season. When the fall comes, these birds will have been flown HARD for 2 season, and I dont mean locked down, and I will pick the best 2 hens, and best 2 cocks, and breed from them.
This is the direction I am headed.
Hopefully you make next months fly, as it will be in my area for the club fly.
As always, if it is raised by me, it will be flown before thinking about breeding from it.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Apr 08, 2008 2:46 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
1578 posts
Apr 08, 2008
3:11 PM
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With the use of fosters, I have been breeding 3 rounds out of each mating. This should give me a good report of who is doing what. I have narrowed it down to who are the better producers. After this years WC,FF, and club flies, I have 2 in my A-Team that will come out. Those will go back on their parents to see how they do in the loft...This is their 2nd season of hard flying, so I have a good understanding of my birds, and who is doing what.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Apr 08, 2008 3:12 PM
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wishiwon2
50 posts
Apr 08, 2008
3:37 PM
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Tony, a good thread. I hope many will contribute.
I've been into rollers 7 yrs now. Initially I took in any rollers I could find, then I flew them, alot. Some worked, many did not. I found that 2 bloodlines had what I was looking for as far as quality rolling. I searched for and added a couple pairs of each from other lofts of the same bloodline.
One thing my first birds lacked was work rate. They were 1 step above stiffs. A bird would typically only roll about 4-5 times/fly. They required close management to get work from them. This was good for me to learn because I learned alot about flying and managing teams. However, It was not exactly the type of birds I wanted. As I chose birds to keep in subsequent years I picked those that were "on the edge" of being out of control. I never bred from rolldowns nor from birds that were complete outfliers. I did use some that were bumpers or marginal kitters. From these I culled specifically the trait weaknesses exhibited by the parents. After about 3-4 yrs I had birds in stock that I selected from the air, rolling with decent quality and a good work rate. I did however have a greater percent than was acceptable to me of faults including kitting, bumping and'not wanting to fly'. I bred towards some thing, I got that and other traits as well. I am in the process of selecting/breeding away from those undesireables. I have never had an "ideal" roller in stock. Each has had some sort of fault or weakness which could be improved upon. As my family developes I hope the degree of undesireables becomes less and less and I am able to make carbon copy editions of one another.
I am now breeding from their offspring to see if the traits I want to keep are coming through. 2 yrs ago I suffered a major setback from sickness. I lost nearly all my kit birds and many breeders (about half). As luck would have it a freind of mine who flies the one of same bloodlines I began with was getting out of rollers, so I bought his breeding loft. I kept 4 pr, which I believe will breed into what I already had going. The others are on loan. Combine this with generous freinds who gave me some kitbirds to fly and I think I actually gained ground with respect to my breeding plan.
In 6 years of flying I feel I have gotten better through the flies and my scores show the same. I have only DQ'd 1 kit and earned a zero once.
What I like best about my birds now is they like to work and like to break together. Not so much individual workers. They average 20-30 feet (those that survive the culling regimen) and most roll about once per 60-90 secs. I am working to improve on individual quality and to increase my percentage of good Q offspring. Currently my pairings produce about 30% decent rollers, those you wouldnt feel bad about someone coming over to see or score. I expect each pair to produce at least 1 young/year that equals or surpasses themselves. I have found 2 pr that click, they have for 2 yrs produced 100% rollers. Not all of them A team quality, they have some issues, but the roll is there.
I believe for me competition has been the primary motivating influence to promote my loft with. Without competing I would have settled for lesser quality and lesser work rate. Partly because I didnt know better and partly because I simply enjoyed the birds. When I know somebody is coming to judge them I want them to be the best they are capable of. Not for my own vanity, but more so to credit those before me. I consider them my family because I make the choices in breeding and training them, but, I did not invent the wheel. I borrowed from what others had already begun. I still continue to experiment, but will likely add very few birds from outside my program in the future. Progress comes slowly, maybe in 2-3 yrs I will have the loft I want, but I doubt it. I honestly think it will be a lifelong pursuit with some golden moments along the way.
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Velo99
1657 posts
Apr 08, 2008
6:58 PM
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I have seen enough roll to know I have a long way to go. In my region we`re spread pretty thin. For a long time the only birds I ever saw were my own. Then out of nowhere I received a whole bunch of "breeders" along with the old "breedem and see what you get". I did, with not exactlythe results I was hoping for. I droppedback to where I was when I started. The line seemed to be working better than anything else I had going. A friend calls me who is a fellow flyer and offers me 4 pairs of birds he has been relatively successful with. He was in the same spot, had too many families. Here was a chance to finally have 4 pairs of birds with a successful background. I have learned a lot of things with the other birds I was working with. How to manage a loft full of fosters for one. With this in mind I am going to raise 50 off the 4 pairs I just got and the best pair I have from the original stock. See what happens,can`t get any worse.
I hope to eventually raise a family that is tight enough to run an open loft without the risk of collapse. Find an occasional addition for a bit of hybird vigor but always some relation to the original birds.
I want birds that are on the same page. Various depths make for a more interesting experience. I want em from 10 to 100. I would like to have an average of 15 breaks in everyday flying. Shooting for a minimum of ten bird breaks. Thats why I am so keen on the idea of having this family being so close. Concert performance. Thats my goal.
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
Last Edited by on Apr 08, 2008 7:13 PM
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Drama Side
136 posts
Apr 08, 2008
7:25 PM
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Great topic Tony I haven't got far enough with my family yet to answer that.
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mkg
24 posts
Apr 08, 2008
7:52 PM
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I have a family im working on.I call them my THREE BIRD FAMILY. A pair was given to me when I got started, at first I would fly them, everything that hatched out I would call stock birds in my eyes i havent seen better birds than what this pair has produced.The hawks would take them quick so it's been an uphill battle. They have super speed and style velocity 50-60 feet and back to the front of the kit.They have thick breast and look like a teardrop.They come in white,black,blue check,brown and blue grizle,dun moult.First year pair is breed I keep the best cock and hen second year son to mom daughter to dad third year I pulled one cock and a hen unflown this year I added a cock that is the same blood as the pair I started with now im breeding son mom offspring back to the dad daughter offspring im hoping to reproduce the foundation pair or hold on to the genes they have. Im hoping to have a full young kit flying next year.They should be killer birds. I have been very picky with whitch birds made it to the stock loft, only the very best were picked, good birds didn't make the cut. I'm confident that they will turn out to be a world class family, It takes alot of time and hard work to build a family. It's like a block wall, you gotta build it brick by brick.
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Scott
342 posts
Apr 08, 2008
8:38 PM
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(It takes alot of time and hard work to build a family. It's like a block wall, you gotta build it brick by brick.)
There it is in a nutshell, good post, Jon that was a good post also.
I was told a long time ago that "I" would would breed my best stock birds , I found it to hold true.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
451 posts
Apr 08, 2008
8:41 PM
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Tony,
You produced a very tight family in what must be record time... or close to it. You must have started with very good birds. Too many breeders never develop a true family because they are always crossing some thing else into their blood.
It took me probably over twenty years to produce what I felt was truly my own family.
Paul G
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bertie
175 posts
Apr 09, 2008
5:10 AM
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So Tony, when does someone else's family become your own? I thought if you work with one line it would always be that line not yours.
Sorry for being so naive!
Bert
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Missouri-Flyer
1583 posts
Apr 09, 2008
5:25 AM
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looking back at the thread, I guess a simple, direct answer would be: When all of your breeders are from your matings, then that family would be considered your.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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Santandercol
2285 posts
Apr 09, 2008
6:07 AM
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I've been taking the easy road,starting with good birds and will carry on with them,breeding the best to best.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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mkg
25 posts
Apr 09, 2008
8:22 AM
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The second year i did not want to risk losing them.Becouse all the others were taken by BOPs so i let them fly only till i could see the roll then they were pulled fast with out flying them out. I know what the nick pair produce.I got tired of wasting time. The pair had produced a high % of spiners for me in the past.At first i just wanted to try to reproduce the foundation pair but then i changed my mind and am bulding the famlily.You can look at these birds just out of the nest had tell who the keepers are just by the type of body you have to the the family.Now the numbers are up i fly the young out but starting out with two birds you cant fly them out with out risking the famliy. If some thing go's bad and you lose the foundation cock or hen your done.Thats why i didnt fly the two other birds out i needed to breed them back the the foundation birds for back up. The pair i started with are the old Decker stuff.Any not every one can build a famliy of birds it hard work to get them the way you want and harder when using small numbers to start with.
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2008 8:59 AM
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j .wanless
74 posts
Apr 09, 2008
9:19 AM
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hi tony this is a topic close to my heart as we say in GB. my foundation cock was a self black ring no ccrc984/83.i had him until he was 18 years.my main cock now is a son off him he is a 94 bird.i have just got my 1st 2 y/b out of him this year.i normally get any where between 10 or 20 out of him most years.by using feeders. he is the g/father to 3 national champions.most people never get 1 national champ in there life time in GB.ive just done a quick count of my stock birds he has 7 sons/8 daughters/8 g/son/8 g/daughters/and 3 ggdaughters in stock.and every one of them proved in the air.every one who has my birds in GB have offspring off him .but ive also sent lots over to s/africa off him. i bread very v close infact i believe i bread closer than any one in GB.I hope to send some photos of my birds when i learn to use photo bucket.
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mkg
26 posts
Apr 09, 2008
11:43 AM
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I have had the click /foundation pair for 4 years for the first 2 years would fly out the birds from this pair.I lost all but one cock that was of the stock type.I took notes one every bird produced size,body type, waight,color,lenght of feet and tail,eye,speed,roll,they will produce culls but from all the time i have worked with then the culls all look the same as for the good one.Some times you can tell if a book is good if you know who wrote it buy what they have wrote in the past.You do need to know what you are working with time will tell.Now days you will never build a family flying birds out some might make it but not all and you will lose good stock.My family is only 1 hen and 1 cock to start with and the 3rd cock is only used on inbreed hens from the foundation and will never be stocked under 3/4 foundation blood.So i can keep the blood as close to the click pair as i can.I wouldnt wast my time if i didnt know what the birds were or could do.I have other famliy that are from well known flyers but i have feel these birds have what it takes.
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maxspin
208 posts
Apr 09, 2008
12:50 PM
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I have a little different idea on family.
You can create your own family, but if they are junk who cares!
You can "call them" your family when all of your breeders have your bands on them.
You have a family when people are asking for your birds.
I will know I have a family of pigeons when people are saying "I am flying Maxwell's"
Keith
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2338 posts
Apr 09, 2008
1:03 PM
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Hey Kieth, please re-read the original post to start this thread to stay in the spirit in which it is intended.
I am not asking should people "buy" birds from someone who has a "family" as though that makes them good or not. This question is entirely different and on a whole other level.
In a nutshell, It's about what each fancier sees when he looks at his birds and what he is doing with them beyond what they were when he got them.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Scott
344 posts
Apr 09, 2008
4:03 PM
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(I thought if you work with one line it would always be that line not yours.)
Bert, once you find a few key birds that produce and what comes down from them produce also you start working it like a vein of gold , these birds will mould around you and draw further and further from the original family that you started with to the point of just being out crosses.
Once you hit this point they are all yours for better or worse.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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bertie
179 posts
Apr 09, 2008
4:34 PM
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Thanks Scott, That's good to know. If I ever get that far. I have some great line to start with, I hope. I know what you think about breeding birds that haven't be flown but I have no choice. Don't dare fly any, can't afford to lose even one. So just have to see what the young look like and start there I guess.
Bert
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sippi
166 posts
Apr 12, 2008
8:33 PM
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Bert there is nothing wrong with getting good stock and flying out the young. All families have to start somewhere. You just need to keep good records and know what birds didnt produce good offspring and vice versa. I dont really believe in click pairs. I used to until a successful breeder told me that if you stop with a click pair then you stop going forward with your line. I had never thought of it that way before. I too am not far enough in with birms to call them my own family. I have created my own family of Orientals and it took me close to ten years to get to where I call them a family.
Sippi
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Hector Coya
89 posts
Apr 12, 2008
9:35 PM
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Ive had my Bob Scott family since 1982,i havent outcrossed them,(some i have but not all.)
Ive tryed to keep them mated the way Bob would have ,why should i call them mine,if they are still only 2 or 3 genarations from the originals,if i havent crossed them they are not anything diferent.Some people act like they reinvented the wheel,If the birds where good when you got them you probably didnt make them any better,you just made more of them,LOL
Hector Coya
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gabe454
706 posts
Apr 12, 2008
9:40 PM
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whats up hector
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
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DeepSpinLofts
583 posts
Apr 13, 2008
4:18 AM
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I've had my Plona's for several years now and have been breeding them pretty much the way I was instructed. There has been a considerable amount of success in some instances.... however there has been some disappointments (setbacks) in other areas.
The breeding program I adhere to has been re-engineered and redefined by many (including my mentor) who also flies Black Country Rollers.
NOTE: ====> I strictly breed "Best to Best"
Over the years I've discovered that attaining an incredibly high velocity on the spin with proper rolling style is extremely tough.... only through selective breeding & proper loft management.... (training/flying/feeding) that I feel this aerial feat can be achieved.
There is a high level of genetic engineering done here at "Deep Spin Lofts" due to the strategic goal of trying to produce high velocity spinners that are frequent and roll a nice depth. Basically what I'm trying to say is that I don't try to breed quantity, I breed for quality.
MEMO: A conversation across the table from a wise man is better than years of study of only books.... for its true that wisdom is acquired by an inquiring mind.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 14, 2008 1:32 PM
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Velo99
1658 posts
Apr 13, 2008
8:58 AM
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Luis,
What you get is your version of a certain line of birds.
Kinda like Overhauling on Speed Channel. They take an old car that someone has been working on and make it something a lot better than it was.
Essentially we do the sme thing with our birds. We get a few breeders,all the same line, breed them to the best of our abilities. Choose the cream of the crop and move to a better group than we had previously. In this respect you can call them your birds.
10 guys with two pairs of birds from the same family would have a wide range of results at the end of say 5 years. Each breeder looks for different things in both the air and in the loft. These differences are what make them our birds.
jmho/yits
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Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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sidro01
7 posts
Apr 13, 2008
11:24 AM
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Great thread!! Gives us new guys an idea of what it takes.As you know. All my birds have came from your family.I basicly am breeding out of 7 pairs.Going to spend this year seeing what I like out of my matings offspring.Then adjust accordingly.So far out of the original 10. I liked what I saw out of 9 This year will be trial and error year.i hope that if I keep close tabs on them I can come up with a great family.Tony, thanks for the Great start back into the Hobby. Birds I have from you are much better than the onea I had as a Kid.Having a ball. Regards Sid
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ezeedad
454 posts
Apr 13, 2008
12:06 PM
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Hector,
You started with "Bob Scott birds"... but really nhe was flying birds which he got from Pensom or very close.. So really it wasn't his family... Correct me if I am wrong, but he didn't really have what could really be called his own family.
You have had the birds from him for a lot longer than he did, so they are more your family than anyone elses.
My definition of a family:
All birds related, and all the birds have been bred by the breeder for at least three generations without any outside blood.
Gomez
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gotspin7
1298 posts
Apr 14, 2008
12:24 PM
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Good post Gomez.
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Sal Ortiz
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Canspinners
125 posts
Apr 14, 2008
5:14 PM
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Tony I think that is part of the problem today,people are out there trying to produce their own family of birds instead of keeping and maintaining an already produced family pure and clean.
For example this is what can happen "
Lets say I buy Ruby rollers from you and I compete and do well and win the world fly
All the sudden people become interested in seeing and aquireing good birds ....I continue to breed and the following season I win again
Now I really get attention and people want to know more about the birds
What i would communicate would be "This line of rollers are Ruby Rolllers from Tony etc"
But what i have seen some people do would be to say oh yeah these are my family of birds I have breed from # so so and then I mixed in # so so and on and on
OH these are the best birds won the world flys ..what family are they? OH of course these are CANSPINNER Line of birds. These are my line of birds
Spinners are spinners and I think we should as hobbiest narrow it down to a few family of birds Pensoms , Barrett, BoB Brown and a few others
Lets keep the lines and famalies clean and distinct By looking at a bird I can tell the difference between a Brown ,Barret, and penson bird if the lines are kept clean
WE should be giving credit to the breeders who help keep the families pure and clean . Our president of our club Jay Lucarelli from the toronto roller club has done exactly that he imported bob brown birds inthe 70s and has kept them pure sinse then no other birds mixed in
As hobiest we should officially recognise the lines that we want to set the standard with name them and the get rid of all the hybreds
Just some quick thoughts
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George R.
499 posts
Apr 14, 2008
5:47 PM
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I dont have the skills to produce a Family of birds thats better then the Family,s that are already established .
I will not try to reinvent the wheel I just want to keep it Rolling LOL
And keeping it Rolling is a Big enough challenge to me .
THE NOVICE
George
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2346 posts
Apr 14, 2008
6:17 PM
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Hey canspinners, initially, what you say appears to be true:
“Spinners are spinners and I think we should as hobbyist narrow it down to a few family of birds Pensom’s, Barrett, Bob Brown and a few others “
However, to my way of thinking, the statement does not stand. Seems to me that there is an assumption being made that breeding birds of the same “family” line merely produces more of the same. Not necessarily if at all true.
Genetically, the DNA is the same, however, the real key here is the ability of an individual fancier to recognize quality rollers both in the air and on the ground. There are many traits that must be maintained, some to be improved (changed) upon to the liking of the fancier,
I have some Ruby Rollers with a very different look than most of what I ship. They are from a certain family branch. Depending on what I decide to focus on, I can get Ruby Rollers that are cobby in appearance and come with shorter beaks; I have some that have beaks that might be considered the average size and a little longer cast.
When I first started with this family back in 1993, I had a fair share of bumpers (not roll-downs) which lacked control when coming in to land. Through breeding selections, that is no longer an issue. They also would tend to fly high, now they mostly fly at a good altitude for viewing. That too was mostly selected out of them.
These are some changes that through selection, allowed me to end up with a better performing and more stable, typey bird than when i started.
And through all the choices and traits that I look at and like, “roll” is of paramount importance. I like a roller that LIKES to roll, that LIKES BEING a roller. Doesn’t have to be fed or broken down to make it roll…
To keep this short, put a good “family” in the wrong set of hands for a couple breeding seasons, I would not want him calling them Ruby Rollers when he does not have the ability to make the proper kind of selections to at least maintain the quality he received.
Same thing, if a guy wins with them, they are HIS family with the background stock being Ruby Rollers. But they are his family after 2 or 3 generations, to receive credit or blame for what he has done with his stock.
When a fancier does well with them, they are HIS family, when they don't do well, then it's the fault of the originating fancier. Go figure!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
Last Edited by on Apr 14, 2008 6:18 PM
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Scott
356 posts
Apr 14, 2008
6:53 PM
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Families don't have to be crossed to create a family, like I have said many times,regardless of what family you start with "most" are going to being culls stock wise, that is the facts.
"YOU" have to find the key birds which are going to be like finding gold nuggets, once you find these then you start working it as a line (family),it has nothing to do with crossing families.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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sippi
167 posts
Apr 14, 2008
7:16 PM
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I have to agree with Scott. Once someone starts breeding a family regardless of who it is some things will change. Two successful breeders could start with two clone pairs and still in five or ten years the birds will be different good or bad.
Tony I dont think every one can create a family. Breeding is a knack just as handling is. I can probably breed better birds than I can fly. A lot of people are just the opposite. Some can do both. And unfortunately some can do niether.
JMHO
Sippi
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ezeedad
455 posts
Apr 14, 2008
8:14 PM
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Tony,
This is the way I made my family. It was through trial and error and slowly learning. Pensom's book taught me. My studies in science taught me. My friends taught me, both by good example and otherwise. But probably more than anything, the birds taught me.
Paul G
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